We often hear folk say, one need be more careful/precise with shot placement if using a smaller bore....
How much realworld leeway does a larger bore allow in being off the mark?
eg:
6x5x55 Vs 30-06
30-06 Vs 9,3x62
270win Vs .338win
338win Vs 375H&H RUGER
...assume each cartridge load has sufficient penetration & all impact at same vel.(2500)and all have same premium construction bullet that produce the ideal mushroom.....and youve got say an Bull Kudu or Eland side on.

quote:

6x5x55 Vs 30-06 0.044"
30-06 Vs 9,3x62 0.058"
270win Vs .338win 0.061"
338win Vs 375H&H RUGER

0.037"

Very simple to solve mathematically

Actually I thought the advantage of the bigger bore could be only half the difference of the two different diameters, cause I dont see the outside portion of arc of a bullets dia/circumference being very effective, when bullet has just clipped the outside edge of the lung.
...any way lets see what the larger bore xpertz have to say...

Your margin of error is directly related to the size of the vitals.

Miss the vitals and you are in error.

Pretty stupid question imoTrying to figure out how big a mistake you can make and still get away with it before you even start, is a poor plan at best. Dr.C

doccash,
its not about planning to miss, the question simply is how much advantage does the bigger bore really offer on shots that happen to turn out marginal or erroneous in placement.
I dont know about the world you live in, but in the one I live in, people do continue from time to time, to misplace shots -even though they do not plan to.

The bigger the bore the wider availability of sticks to clean the mud from it.

Trax

I understand your question fully.

Here is my answer baised on all the hunting I have done.

Minor increases in bullet diameter and thus bullet weight will have minor increases in effectivenes.

Lets take the 6.5x55, the 270, and the 30-06.

Assuming equal bullet construction and SD on moose and down if you shoot a hundred with each there would probably not be much difference in performance.

However if you go to bigger tougher game like BIG bears, eland or say cape buff, a cartridge like the 9,3x62 will be head and shoulders above the ones named above. The weight of the bullet starts to come into play here.

I have shot a lot of African game including giraffe, cape buff, and elehant with the 9,3x74R, 450/400 3 1/4" and the 450 No2.

In truth with good hits I have not been able to tell ANY difference in "killing" power between the three.

Physics says that the 450 No2 should be the best of all, BUT if you look at rounds fired, with equal shot placement, the 9,3x74R is the clear winner.

This just tells me that with good hits[ and adequate enetration], you can only kill them SO dead.

TRAX,
Only very slightly in each of your comparisons, but if the 6.5x55 is compared with a 375, there is a whole lot of difference, particuliarly with the largest of game, or on raking shots on any game. Jump up to a 458 class and it's even more. An associated problem would be that as the power increases, our accuracy frequently begins to suffer, particuliarly after several shots with the big boys.
The main "error" would be attempting raking shots with cartridges unable to penetrate sufficiently; the increased caliber/energy of the cartridge might increase the "reachable" vital zone from some angles, or offer advantage when "knock-down-power" is considered.
I also like the 9.3x74r.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
doccash,
its not about planning to miss, the question simply is how much advantage does the bigger bore really offer on shots that happen to turn out marginal or erroneous in placement.
I dont know about the world you live in, but in the one I live in, people do continue from time to time, to misplace shots -even though they do not plan to.

This is common friggin' sense, often lost on those who favor relative small bores and pass on the admonition, "just don't miss."

It isn't true that a "miss" (miss = imperfectly placed shot) with a .308" is the same as a miss with a .458". It may be the relatively more effective or the less effective, depending on many factors, like, "Did the .458" expand?", which it might not in small game...

But a bigger bore rifle makes a bigger hole, all things equal - as we know they are not.

When it comes to some of the biggger game, more = more. For elephants, in particular, a big bore may stop or drop one when a smaller rifle would not. This has been proven over more than a century, to the dismay of the smaller rifle crowd. But then, to the dismay of the big rifle crowd, and I'm one, it isn't reliable and there are too many variables to make it so, or to make it predicable, including just which elephant you shot.

All in all though, bigger = better, all things the same, ie bullet design, velocity...; bigger = better for elephants no matter what, so long as velocity and bullet weight aren't too far from the Brit "stadard" (assuming the hunter can shoot one equally well as a smaller rifle.)

Trax, no one can answer your question with any precision.

The best I can do is say that, given a good bullet (and a good bullet is critically important), a larger caliber and higher velocity may help in case of a misplaced shot. Sometimes it will help enough to make a difference, but sometimes it will not.

However - I generally think about your question from another angle. Let's put error aside for a moment.

I prefer a bigger bore at higher velocity because - again, given a good bullet - and assuming that I am able to make a well-placed (but non-CNS) shot - a fast moving, heavy caliber bullet will incapacitate and kill game more quickly than a lesser caliber bullet at a lower velocity.

This can sometimes be very important!

All IMHO and based on my limited experience, of course.

Trax it is questions like this that keeps discusions going and campfires burning here is my take on it.

i will use a specie like wildebeest as an example i shoot about 20 of them per year it is one of the strongest animals per kg that you will ever find and shot placement is crucial i have used my 308 a lot of times but there is only one medicine for the poor man's buffalo and it is a 375h&h . when they are on the menu its the first rifle i take.

i have shot many of them right through the heart and found them dead between 60-180m and on several occasions there was no blood trail. i have also shot some to high or to far behind and managed to get a follow up shot within 500m - 1km because the 375 hits them hard. i have seen guys shooting with smaller calibres shooting a bad shot and we take 2 days to find it or we never find it.

hunting is not a perfect world and you have a whole range of factors that plays a part and 80% is related to the guy behind the rifle further does the bush favour the animal much more than it does the hunter. in my experience do you only get 1 out of 20 shots in the veld like you have practised on the range. your body position may be akward or there maybe branches in the way.the animal also doesn't alwys stand in the perfect position.

with a small calibre you need to snipe the animal so al conditions must be in your favour with a big calibre like 375 and up that factor plays less of a part. if the animal is behind a bush you can not take a shot with a small calibre but you can with a big calibre 50% of the time. all it does is it creates more opportunities when a bigger calibre is used.

Nothing can compensate for poor shot placement but with a bigger calibre you will find more blood and track the animal easier and your chances are better to find it especialy when there is a lot of grass and bush around.

I am not saying that everybody must have a 375 but that you must know your rifle and what it is capable off and not get pushed into shots that is not suited for your rifle at the end its you pulling the trigger and you that pays for the animal. Use a calibre you trust and are confident with and only take shots you know you can make and then still expect the unexpected.

a big calbre just gives you a slightly bigger margin of error and error happen very easily in the bush put you must strive for that perfect shot.

I made my first hunt to South Africa in 2000. The rifle that I brought was a Rem 700 in 7mm Rem mag, shooting 140 gr Ballistic tips. About the third day I made a North American "behind the shoulder" shot on a Waterbuck bull. The shot looked good, but after a quarter mile or so the blood stopped.

We spent five days looking for that wounded Waterbuck, and enlisted the help of a couple other PH's and the Outfitter/PH and their clients. During this time, the Outfitter/PH did not hide his dissappointment with my shooting and rifle caliber. He would make comments like "My grandfather always said,'If you can't shoot good, you should use a big enough gun to make up for it' ".

When we finally found my Waterbuck, both the Outfitter/PH and I shot at it. He, with his .375 H&H, and me with my 7mm RM. We walked up to the dead Waterbuck and found two 7mm bullet holes in his chest and one .375 hole in his front foot. Which caliber killed him?

Also when we examined this Waterbuck, we found that my first shot (a week earlier) entered in the crease behind the right shoulder and it exited through the crease behind the left shoulder, with a 1 1/2" exit hole that the bull had licked clean. The bull was also running with the herd and did not act like he had been been previously shot.

On subsequent trips to South Africa I swiched to 160 gr Accubonds in my 7mm RM and also used my .375 RUM. I have also switched my aimpoint to "on the shoulder," instead of "behind the shoulder."

375fantastic,
now,from your Xperience on Wildebeast, how much more leeway does 375HH offer in shot placement/error over the 308win... while still effecting a good kill?...ie if you had a wildebeast sideon 100yd, how much more can .375 shot placement stray and still effect good kill.(assume you have a suitable expanding soft)

Im kinda thinking like Wendell, If ya plain miss the vitals,it dont matter much vvhat bore you miss them with.

I would say none.
As has been stated if you miss the vitals, well you still just missed the vitals, no more and no less.
The bigger and heavier bullets allow you to reach the vitals perhaps better than a smaller lighter caliber.
Through more more meat, through more bone, through tougher hide, they usually penetrate better so they hit more things inside the animal in their passage.
No with that said since so many folks here like to dwell on theory instead of rality I would imagine that if you shot a big enough caliber to blow an animal into two pieces with a gut shot then yes you have found your answer.
In reality though unless you are shooting a shoulder mounted RPG then your pretty much confined to making your bullet go through the vitals, or break down bones structure to the point of imobilization, or take out the CNS.
And when you do that then a bigger bullet makes a bigger hole for a longer distance inside the critter.
Break one shoulder and fail to penetrate far enough to take out the other as well and you might have trouble.

So I personally do not feel that a larger caliber gives you any extra margin , they simply do a better job of getting where they need to be, and mess things up a little better once they do.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
375fantastic,
now,from your Xperience on Wildebeast, how much more leeway does 375HH offer in shot placement/error over the 308win... while still effecting a good kill?...ie if you had a wildebeast sideon 100yd, how much more can .375 shot placement stray and still effect good kill.(assume you have a suitable expanding soft)

Im kinda thinking like Wendell, If ya plain miss the vitals,it dont matter much vvhat bore you miss them with.

a poor shot is a poor shot and it doesn't kill it you just find it quicker to shoot again

quote:

I have also switched my aimpoint to "on the shoulder," instead of "behind the shoulder."

that is a very good idea because its a much better and safer shot as you are not interested in the meat it also works on all plainsgame

quote:

if the animal is behind a bush you can not take a shot with a small calibre but you can with a big calibre 50% of the time

Rudy, I cannot agree at all. It is foolish to shoot THROUGH a bush, no matter what caliber.

quote:

In truth with good hits I have not been able to tell ANY difference in "killing" power between the three.

Precisely!

The most important thing a hunter should concentrate on for hunting is, shooting accurately UNDER FIELD CONDITIONS!

quote:

Originally posted by Karl S:

quote:

if the animal is behind a bush you can not take a shot with a small calibre but you can with a big calibre 50% of the time

Rudy, I cannot agree at all. It is foolish to shoot THROUGH a bush, no matter what caliber.

Do you see all the twigs in front of you when you hunt the bushveld and what happens if you hit one of them with a small calibre ? its not a perfect world out there

quote:

what happens if you hit one of them with a small calibre ?

Exactly the same as what is happening with the bullet when using a bigger caliber. They all deflect, and caliber, bullet weight, velocity does not determine to which degree, its just another mith.

Karl,

Not so sure if it is a MYTH at all. They all deflect, but to a different degree.......

A big calibre with a heavy bullet will cut through a "bush" much more easily than a smaller high velocity calibre. It's not something that you want to do...but you can't see all the twigs etc, mate.....that's impossible........

And why do you see the Yanks in Iraq/Afghanistan use a .50cal to shoot the shit out of a building when they have their 223 SAW's available?

quote:

And why do you see the Yanks in Iraq/Afghanistan use a .50cal to shoot the shit out of a building when they have their 223 SAW's available?

blair, there is a huge differece between a building and a brush. And also, they would not mind wounding the people inside, where we want to kill animals as cleanly as possible. There is no predicting what a bullet will do after hitting a twig, not even a heavy slow one. Do the test yourself, be a mythbuster for us. Shoot a group through fine brush/ twigs with a .243 and a .375 (even using 350 gr bullets), and using their normal group size to compare, see if you can find any predicatbility of what the slower, heavier bullet will do. Put the obsticale at least 5 yards in front of the target, and you will be amazed...

I learnt the hard way about trying to shoot through bush with a big bore. If the bush is small and right up against the animal ie touching it then it may work. But if there is any distance between the bush and the animal you are merely taking a pot shot. Even big bullets deflect badly and you stand a large chance of wounding - not through bullet failure but because of poor shot placement

a normal person needs halve a word to understand something

quote:

Originally posted by Karl S:

quote:

And why do you see the Yanks in Iraq/Afghanistan use a .50cal to shoot the shit out of a building when they have their 223 SAW's available?

blair, there is a huge differece between a building and a brush. And also, they would not mind wounding the people inside, where we want to kill animals as cleanly as possible. There is no predicting what a bullet will do after hitting a twig, not even a heavy slow one. Do the test yourself, be a mythbuster for us. Shoot a group through fine brush/ twigs with a .243 and a .375 (even using 350 gr bullets), and using their normal group size to compare, see if you can find any predicatbility of what the slower, heavier bullet will do. Put the obsticale at least 5 yards in front of the target, and you will be amazed...

Karl,

I've done the test in the field on roos, plenty of times.........the heavy bullet, having more mass and momentum will deflect less.....yes it will screw up group size.......but Scott450's comment is valid as well. It is bleeding obvious the further the target is from the obstacle the greater the deflection will be.

And I'd still go with the .50 cal over the 223 on those buildings, bushes, cars, donkeys, camels .......basically anything!

I tend to agree with Karl S on the ability of grass to deflect bullets of any caliber, whether large or small.

More than once, I have seen nothing but grass, and not much grass, deflect large caliber bullets enough to make for bad hits, or produce enough bullet deflection to miss large animals entirely.

It may be counterintuitive, but it's a fact.

quote:

Originally posted by 375 fanatic:
a normal person needs halve a word to understand something

Rudi........

You have just become someone's whipping boy for whatever reason. Don't sweat it mate.

The purpose of this forum, I believed, was for everyone to learn from each other, share information etc. Beginner, experienced client, PH's the lot.

I've been going to Africa since 95 and last year listened to what mrlexma said on a post about boots......ended up with the best pair of boots for Africa, I've ever had, thanks to his advice..............

We all might disagree at times, but if someone wants to hammer another member, go down to the PF and play with the fair dinkum maniacs. Most newcomers down there are dog meat in about 48 hours.......it's like facing a pack of hyenas

PS: What about the cricket? Eh.... Ozzie, Ozzie!!!!

If one can survive their first month in the ARPf with their mind & skin intact, all else isawalk in the park..........
Like hunting, there are bigBore mouths in the arPF jungle that produce plent of verbal blast,but often poor shot placement.

quote:

Originally posted by Blair338/378:
.....
And why do you see the Yanks in Iraq/Afghanistan use a .50cal to shoot the shit out of a building when they have their 223 SAW's available?

Because the 20mm was busy somewhere else!

The Political forum is easy. I'm right, obviously, everyone who disagrees with me is wrong, equally obviously, so I seldom post there.

I'm more interested in shooting through grass. Not brush, branches, just grass. My PH last year wanted me to shoot a buffalo through high grass at perhaps 20-25 yards. (More accurately, he said "Can you make the shot through the grass?", but he really wanted me to take it). I could definitely see the animal, could see all the vitals, etc. It was just that the shot was through that 10' high "grass", which is a whole like little bamboo. I refused to take the shot.

Any thoughts there? 20 yards is awfully close. Should I have taken the shot? Was I too conservative?

quote:

Originally posted by x-man:

quote:

Originally posted by Blair338/378:
.....
And why do you see the Yanks in Iraq/Afghanistan use a .50cal to shoot the shit out of a building when they have their 223 SAW's available?

Because the 20mm was busy somewhere else!

25mm chain gun is an excellent weapon!!!

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
The Political forum is easy. I'm right, obviously, everyone who disagrees with me is wrong, equally obviously, so I seldom post there.

I'm more interested in shooting through grass. Not brush, branches, just grass. My PH last year wanted me to shoot a buffalo through high grass at perhaps 20-25 yards. (More accurately, he said "Can you make the shot through the grass?", but he really wanted me to take it). I could definitely see the animal, could see all the vitals, etc. It was just that the shot was through that 10' high "grass", which is a whole like little bamboo. I refused to take the shot.

Any thoughts there? 20 yards is awfully close. Should I have taken the shot? Was I too conservative?

I'd say you did the right thing lavaca

Grass, bamboo, trees, termite mounds, whatever...

No problem with Frankenstein

Frank likes a challenge ...

quote:

Originally posted by Blair338/378:

quote:

Originally posted by 375 fanatic:
a normal person needs halve a word to understand something

Rudi........

You have just become someone's whipping boy for whatever reason. Don't sweat it mate.

The purpose of this forum, I believed, was for everyone to learn from each other, share information etc. Beginner, experienced client, PH's the lot.

I've been going to Africa since 95 and last year listened to what mrlexma said on a post about boots......ended up with the best pair of boots for Africa, I've ever had, thanks to his advice..............

We all might disagree at times, but if someone wants to hammer another member, go down to the PF and play with the fair dinkum maniacs. Most newcomers down there are dog meat in about 48 hours.......it's like facing a pack of hyenas

PS: What about the cricket? Eh.... Ozzie, Ozzie!!!!

Talking about whipping boys

Looks like one is not entitled to an opinion on ANY board of AR anymore...
I stand by what I said, and if anyone believes different, so be it. Interesting fact is that most hunters that do not believe a heavier/ slower/ bigger bullet deflects any less than the opposite, used to also believe in the myth. Then experience (hopefully) takes over, and you see the myth for what it is.

quote:

One day when im big I want to know as much as the stooges

Rudi, one day you will, if you keep an open mind and gain more experience in that time...

I've done a fair ammount of risky shots and must admit there is grass and grass, as well as brush and brush and there are moon tides...would not deliberatly take shots through obstacles - doesn't work good enough to rely on, no matter the cal. (bigger might be better - up to a point where even biggest/haviest/slowest will deflect) below is an example when it worked (would never take such a shot on healthy game):

http://forums.accuratereloadin...=793102586#793102586