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Speaking of planes game not including eland. I have noticed a strange dicotomy when discussing calibers for planes game. When the question is: "What do I tell my buddy to take for planes game?" the usual suspects mentioned are: 300 WM, 338WM, 375 H&H and a grudging "30-06 will kill anything if you put a premium bullet in the right place". If you change the question from "my buddy" to "my wife/daughter" the answers change dramatically. 7mm-08/7X57 seems to lead the pack with 270, 280 and an occasional 308 trailing. Hunt reports seem to be consistant with this advice with the men shooting more powerful rifles than the women. This prompts a few questions. Do animals die more easily when shot by women? Do we just not care if a woman loses a wounded animal? Are women better shots than Men? Are we men hung up on having a "big bad" rifle? Do we really need all that power? I took a 300 WM on my last hunt instead of my 30-06. It certainly worked, but I came away feeling that the only difference between it and my trusted 30-06, at the ranges that I shot from [inside 100 yds], were noise and recoil. What do you think? | ||
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The two hundred pound man who shoots a bunch can usually easily handle a bit more recoil than the 120# wife/daughter/girl-friend who doesn't shoot much. Plus the guy is usually paying, and if that big eland, giraffe, buffalo or whatever steps out, then he won't be under-gunned. Plus the women probably won't be tempted to take those 300 yd shots. Steve "He wins the most, who honour saves. Success is not the test." Ryan "Those who vote decide nothing. Those who count the vote decide everything." Stalin Tanzania 06 Argentina08 Argentina Australia06 Argentina 07 Namibia Arnhemland10 Belize2011 Moz04 Moz 09 | |||
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I took a 300 WSM on the first 7 safaris. With my 8th safari recently, I took a 325 WSM. Never felt undergunned or overgunned with either caliber. I also took the .375 H&H again this time and killed Livingstone's Eland, Giraffe and Cape Buffalo with it. I have learned that it's better to have "Enough Gun", than not. Although I have shot eland, zebra, giraffe, etc. and other larger plains game with the 300 WSM, I have stepped up the caliber on some of the bigger stuff as insurance against lost trophies. Maybe it's my age!  By the way, there are women hunters here on AR that shoot and use the bigger calibers with confidence. Ann, for one, comes to my mind. | |||
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I would say "yes" we are overgunned. There is not a plains game animal that a 270/7mm-08 through 338-06 will not take cleanly. I am specifically not including the qualifier of a "premium bullet" and "if you pick your shots". A good quality bullet and a well placed shot are of course required but that is not really a qualifier because that is pretty much always required. I would not feel undergunned shooting plainsgame with a 270 win and 150 grn interlocks all day long. Hundreds of elk and moose hunters enter the fields every fall with the same combo and get clean 1 shot kills. Mike Legistine actu? Quid scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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For 100 yard shots across wide open spaces at animals standing broadside and still, yes. For 50 yard shots through thick bush at animals standing any way but broadside and possibly moving away from you, no. Will J. Parks, III | |||
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For Plains Game I'll say yes. 1st trip was a .308 which worked very well but I didn't like the detachable magazine feature. 2nd trip was a 9.3x62 as I had Eland on my list and I brought what my PH told me to bring. 3rd trip. I've had a 7x57 built for everything. Nuff said. | |||
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My 10 year old son & I each hunted with .308s this year but: I was over gunned He was under gunned. Mine was a .308 Norma Mag with 200gr Accubonds @2920 fps He had a .308 Win with reduced load, conventional 150gr bullets @ 2100 fps. The only noticeable difference: We HAD to work a lot harder to put him on a do-able shot than we had to for me. Not only the limitation of his cal/load, but his youth, his experience and to not bust his confidence with an un-achievable shot. I shot various game at various ranges and conditions. He had a easy shot on a Steenbuck, and a few days later a 110m shot, broadside on a big Blue Wildebeest. Placed slightly forward on the shoulder the bullet travelled right through. The bull ran 160m before realising he was actually dead. So: Faster = Flatter = Potentially Further Shots Bigger = More Power = Potentially More "Iffy" Shots Smaller = Limitations = More Care/Selectivity With Shots   http://www.bigbore.org/ http://www.chasa.co.za Addicted to Recoil ! I hunt because I am human. Hunting is the expression of my humanity... | |||
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I would say that the PH recomends different rifles becuase a) 20-80% of the men who come hunting are corporate clients who cannot shoot and the PH wants the best chance of securing the animals so he recomends a bigger cal. Wives/ Kiddies along...you know they can shoot, and you know they are interested. I have never met a woman on a hunt who was suffering from small penis syndrome and looking for a few trophies to hang on the wall to compensate...the women who have come hunting have all done so becuase they are hunters  ..Therefore you can make recomendations based on law and animals available. Ie where I am from legal minimum is 7mm for most plains game, so a 280 rem or 7x64 is a reasonable choice. If Eland, Girrafe or lion are part of the package, well the law demands a 7mm mag or up...and this can be discussed - what rifle do they normally use at home, what bullets...is it worth sugesting something bigger etc. for men, tell them to bring something that is legal for all plains game and be done with it- bring a .300 mag and stop mucking about. | |||
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A long time friend of mine who learned to be a Ph from his uncle who was a Ph all his adult live. has stated on many occasions that he thought a 270 was the best caliber for planes game bar none. several Ph's I have meet has stated that Americans tend to use to much gun and are not either familiar with there guns or not very good shot's and need to practice more | |||
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Steve thats a good looking boy and looks like he knows which end of the gun goes bang. 308 is a great caliber sounds like your training him right toooo. as we would say here GOOD shooten boy keeper up | |||
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The look on your son's face is priceless! BTW....it's PLAINS GAME, not "plane's" !!!! | |||
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who care how it's spelled everyone knows what were talking about. spell check doesn't even care. | |||
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Thanks ddrhook!  On the 270 I would say it's all the gun needed for Southern African non-dangerous game. The 7 x 57 is another trusty number with it's always impressive staright line penetration, easy shoot-ability and inherant accuracy. I would not agree that Americans are not either familiar with there guns or not very good shot's and need to practice more. I think by and large American that come to Africa have done a lot of homework. Perhaps they bring somewhat more gun than is essential, but there is a legacy from the era of super-magnums (Weatherbyitis) and if the purchase was made specifically for the African safari then the gun or calibre may be a bit "new" to them when they arrive. I seem to think that this trend is dying off and forums such as AR help a lot in this regard http://www.bigbore.org/ http://www.chasa.co.za Addicted to Recoil ! I hunt because I am human. Hunting is the expression of my humanity... | |||
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women listen men don't and women doesn't have ego's the women i have hunted with has a +-50% higher one shot kill record than men "Buy land they have stopped making it"- Mark Twain | |||
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Ya I felt kind of over gunner with my 30-06 this year but I could not get the gun I wanted in 270 at the time.my 300 dollar gun did a wonderful job for me  that would be another good thread how many people over pay for there PG safari rifles | |||
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I kill with the rifles/calibers that I am proficient with that I feel are humanely capable of taking the intended game ie., I personally wouldn't have confidence in using a 22LR for plains game. This past April I enjoyed a cull hunt in Limpopo. I was the 1st hunter of the season for my PH/outfitter (the game had not been hunted this season). The bush was abnormally green and high (per the PH) for that time of the year. I used a Ruger M77 (old tang style safety) 7x57 mauser shooting 160 grain Woodleighs over 47 grains of H414. I shot 9 animals, all 1 shot kills to include 2 blue wildebeest, 3 impalas, 2 warthogs, 2 blesbuk. Some might say well a cull hunt is for lesser animals. True, but the hunt was challenging with the green, tall bush. Ever hunt a warthog, impala in that thick heavy bush? The wildbeest provided me quartering shots (and not just quartering a little bit). The average shot was approximately 150 yards. MAN DID I HAVE FUN ! ! After my 1st African hunt I asked the question on AR about the validity of the PH statement "that was a great shot". Well this year my PH told me that I did some exceptional shooting. Overgunned - take what you are comfortable with & be prepared for adventure & fun. | |||
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When I go, I am just going to take a 338WM with 250 NP's that shoots lights out. I am not going to worry about any shot angles etc. I may take game the size of sable, waterbuck and perhaps Eland. Stateside I shoot just about everything with a 243 or a 270 with no fuss or muss. I just need something else to use this 338 on. Have not been back to Alaska recently. A lot of confidence in this rifle and is light enough to carry all day. The recoil is no bother, so why not? EZ | |||
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EZ: If it weren't for the legal issues, technically speaking the 338 is more than capable of going over and above what you listed. | |||
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I think all the answers given here are valid, but not in all places in Africa, or all types of safaris. If the safari is in RSA, and only in plains game ranches then most of the deer & elk rifles used in North America will do fine if using premium bullets, and taking care where bullets are placed on things like Eland, or Zebra. If, however, the safari is in or for dangerous game then the light rifle should be a bit more powerful, in fact the light rifle should be powerful enough to take the place of the heavy DGR rifle if need be. If you are using a double rifle in say .400 up for your primary DGR, and plan taking a few plains game as well, the light rifle is best something like a 375 H&H. This lets the light rifle take the place of the big rifle if it is lost in transit, or damaged and your light rifle is all that gets to you. As well as when you are on the trail of some wildebeest, or Zebra, and run into a big duggaboy while carrying your light rifle. In this case you are not only better armed, but legal as well. The taking of a light rifle for a person, simply because they weigh less than you is ridiculous. A light person can handle recoil better than a heavy person, simply because they can roll with the kick, while the heavy guy absorbs it all. Anyone going on safari that will be shooting game should do their practice with the rifle they will use just like the guy paying the bill. The one place a smaller rifle makes sense is if the person is so small they can't hold the rifle up to shoot, like the small boy in one of the posts above. All adults need to learn to shoot a proper rifle for a safari. Then you have a safari in most of Namibia, where even large plains game are shot at some very long distances, and about the only dangerous game you come in contact with will be a lion or leopard, then a little flater shooting rifle with some boost in power over the deer rifles is called for. Things like 7mm Mag up through the 340 WBY mag with good scope sights are not out of the question. There is no blanket battery than covers all safaris in all places! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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go down to the big bore forum  and you will notice that anything less that and 689 wambam mangleum shooting a spent uranium bullet is considered undergunned   | |||
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TerryR, personally, two days on airplanes, eating airline food (each way), and several thousand dollars worth of daily and trophy fees... I feel more confident with a little more than minimum for the job. I took a Chapuis DR in 9,3x74R to RSA this April. Didn't feel overgunned. I am going to hunt Elk with it this fall. Rich DRSS | |||
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Don't think I'll be overguned for buff in Moz.Taking a pea shooter, a 10.75x68. Fortunately, my hunting buds are taking proper buff guns, one a .505 and the other two, .510 Wells. | |||
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I think that if you can guarantee that all you will see is plains game, a 7-8mm cartridge, properly handled, will do whatever you need. I like a bit more on eland simply because they're so blamed big. However, you can't always guarantee that all you will encounter is plains game unless you're doing a South African ranch hunt and all the worrisome species are in a different enclosure. As Wieland so pithily put it, "when in elephant country, carry an elephant rifle." I don't think being 'overgunned' is possible under such circumstances. Besides, I like my .375 and my .404. They're just fun to shoot. Sarge Holland's .375: One Planet, One Rifle . . . for one hundred years! | |||
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MacD37, what you say is spot on.... and what VFR1 says brings in another dimension; we don't only choose our calibres on purely technical specifications. That would be boring. Here he states he'll be shooting at Buff in Moz with the grand old (highly underrated) 10,75 x 68. In doing so he is following the footsteps of Harry Manners, Fred Everett and many others, with the caveat that he now has modern powders & bullets to make this calibre work perfectly which the old guys never did have! Now that's where the passion and history come into the choice....  http://www.bigbore.org/ http://www.chasa.co.za Addicted to Recoil ! I hunt because I am human. Hunting is the expression of my humanity... | |||
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we maybe over gunned but we will never be out gunned  | |||
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MacD37 has it right on the money. If it was just a plains game hunt with no chance of big and nasty stuff then I would feel totally comfortable with a .30-06 and a good bullet. If I was going to have to possibly whack an eland way out there, then I would pack my .338 WM. Once buffalo or elephant enter the picture, then a bigger hammer like the .375 is prudent as your light rifle, even if you are not actually hunting them. ______________________________________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who are bereft of that gift. | |||
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Last year in RSA, my wife and I used my Win. M70 in 270 Win to take 10 animals including Waterbuck, Zebra, Kudu and Gemsbuck. Every animal died where it stood when shot except the Kudu which ran about 100 yds. Hugh | |||
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Why sure...some can just talk them to death. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Are you really ever overgunned? You can certainly be undergunned, you can be adequately gunned... but overgunned? In Africa? On the plains of hesitation lie the bleached bones of ten thousand, who on the dawn of victory lay down their weary heads resting, and there resting, died. If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue, Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch... Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it, And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son! - Rudyard Kipling Life grows grim without senseless indulgence. | |||
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EXACTLY! NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
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And I plan to use mine on the ferocious whitetail deer of northwestern PA!  NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
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I too am with Mac - which is why my "light" gun was a 416 WBY. It's accurate, I shoot it well and can take care of just about anything I might unexpectedly encounter. I have to add that I don't really subscribe to the theory of being "overgunned". I know some will argue about pass-through to other game but the truth is, that's a real possibility with almost any rifle caliber. Since we're talking about plains game, a broadside shot through the ribs of an impala with a 260 Rem will likely exit and hit another if standing next to it. Same with the 416. (OK, maybe the 260 wont take out 6 or 7 impala if they are lined-up, but you get the idea )Of course, I'm the same guy who wanted a V8 instead of an I5 in the Hummer, a Hemi instead of 318 in the 'Cuda and 1200cc instead of 833 in the Harley. I guess a Prius would suffice most of the time, but where is the fun in that? NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
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Never hunted in Africa...but I expect many see it as a chance to bring out the "bad boys" ... nothin wrong with it. In the case of DG, is there an option?? | |||
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From all of the lip flapping and chest thumping I saw in the far too numerous MS threads, I would say there are a few males on here that could do that as well............talk them to death or 'impress' them to death. I love guiding lady hunters. They listen, they tend to have empathy for the game animals and generally are not concerned with impressing everyone with what a Bwana they are, consequently they usually shoot better than most men. They also are not prone to falling into a blue funk/deep depression and acting like a moron if they do screw something up. ______________________________________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who are bereft of that gift. | |||
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I love hunting with lady guides... what is the Danish female PH's name again? Natasha Berg?  On the plains of hesitation lie the bleached bones of ten thousand, who on the dawn of victory lay down their weary heads resting, and there resting, died. If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue, Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch... Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it, And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son! - Rudyard Kipling Life grows grim without senseless indulgence. | |||
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Damn, Russell! Or should I say Boris? BTW, in my lexicon, overgunned is when you can't shoot straight with what you're shooting. By that definition, given the obvious advantages of experimentation by trial and error, only a fool is overgunned. Now, as to how many of "we" or "us" are fools, I stopped keeping score a long time ago. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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i used a 338 on my first 4 safaris( all plains game, including eland, and would have used it for buff in Tz on trip 5 had it been legal. best all around cartridge for most stuff until the law intervenes. Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
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Careful Bwana, Walter will talk Saeed into banning you for a week for posting such pictures  http://www.bigbore.org/ http://www.chasa.co.za Addicted to Recoil ! I hunt because I am human. Hunting is the expression of my humanity... | |||
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Hi Stephen, Great pictures of your son. That looks like an area in the Kalahari, was wondering where? | |||
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