I've read it many times.
Why is the .375 H&H magnum the overwhelming caliber suggestion by professional hunters for clients hunting all game when the .416 is the obvious choice? (Perhaps obvious from all on this forum) If a person cannot handle the recoil of the larger rifle, should they even be shooting larger rifles or hunting dangerous game at all? Why the huge suggestion on the .375? Is it because of the light recoil? I'd prefer the recoil of the larger rifle caliber and more certain effect on game than the lighter rifle but then I am not as experienced as most on this forum. What is your experience? Is the .416 caliber or the .458 caliber the best for all-around big game hunting? I believe I've posted similar on this forum, however, I'd still like answers on this subject.

Thanks,


jfm

Why bother with a 416 when the 375 will do it?

For dangerous game, the best all around chambering is the one that the individual hunter has the most confidence in --ie shoots best.

I hunt with nothing but handguns, but shoot the 375 and 416, in handgun loading, interchangably -- using the heavier gun for the thick-skinned game and the lighter 375 chambering for everything else. I'm totally confortable with either, but that's not the usual case in my observation. Most people seem to have a decided preference. I do own even heavier chamberings for single shot handguns, but I'm not as confortable with those, find them very difficult to shoot off-hand, and since the 416 is more than enough for anything (in my own experience) I see no reason to carry them.

For the PH, the choice is tougher, because he is the backup and must always be comfortable that he can stop any charging animal in its tracks virtually any time. That's a different requirement than the one of making a clean kill with one well placed shot, usually slowly and carefully taken.

Before the .416 Renaissance of the last couple of decades, I thought of the caliber as some obscure and obsolete specialty item, whereas the .375 (H&H, of course) was a gun I lusted after and was relatively available and affordable. Today I'm sure that the .416 is a better choice for some hunting, but the .375 is an old friend that I'll never forsake. I've owned a .416 (Rigby, natch!) but got rid of it as too close to the .375. Next stop, .458!

John

My assumption was that the .375 is required in many countries for dangerous game, and the PH does not know what skill level the client has, so recommending the minimum gave the greatest chance of the hunter being able to handle the recoil and still being within the regulations.

Why use a .416 when the .423 is available? After all I only like to use classic rounds not those new whiz bang modern jobs.

I have a .416 Hoffman, so don't really have any need for a .375; however, my son is looking at getting a rifle he can use for Africa, buffalo included, and I've suggested he focus on a .375 H&H. Nothing against the .416 at all, but I think the .375 is excellent, and easier to shoot. I guess I fall into the camp of loving them both.

Recoil is a major factor. Some people can not tolerate the recoil of the .416's and still shoot accurately.

The 375 H&H is adequate for dangerous game hunting. People who can tolerate more and recognize the benefit of the larger bores will typically shoot something starting with a "4". My favorite DG gun was a .450 Dakota for many years. Then I was fond of the .470 NE.

Why shoot a little .416 when there is a .450 or a .470?

You stop when it hurts more than you are willing to take, which is why a lot of guys and gals shoot .375.

Small frame, arthritis, neck injury, medical problems. All these are pretty good reasons to shoot lighter recoiling guns.

Beacause it ain't better. It is just a little different. Better is dependent on what you use it for.

465H&H

I think that this has a historical explanation. the 416 Rigby was a very expensive rifle (double square bridge magnum action) & very few were actually around before the 1980s. The 375 H&H, 9.3X62 & 9.3X64 were the more common DG calibers in standard bolt action Mauser 98 rifles. Yes the 404 & 10.75 were also around.

Today I can buy a 375H&H or a 416 Rem mag for a relatively low cost but a 416 Rigby is more expensive. A 404 Jeffery is probably cheaper than the Rigby but not easily available.

The other key factor is the far superior bullets we have today. The 375 H&H probably kills better today with Norfork, Swift, Barnes, Woodleigh etc bullets than the 416 did 50 years ago with Kynoch bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
Why use a .416 when the .423 is available? After all I only like to use classic rounds not those new whiz bang modern jobs.

Exactly, the never ending debate , the 375 H&H works but if you are able to handle a larger round all the better...it all boils down to personal choice and ability to handle the chambering.

I have a 404 Jeffery in the works and to me it seems to be a very balanced chambering....more capacity than a 416 Remington and more than enough to duplicate 416 Rigby performance in a more compact rifle.

I am waiting for the day a significant company legitimizes the 460 G&A...all I could ask for in a 458 chambering.

No need for the 416, the 404 Jeffery is better but I always take two rifles with me and when heading to africa, one of those will most likely be a 375...good for just about everything...

IMHO, which is just and only that; recoil really begins to intrude its ugly self after you go past the 375 H&H. I own CZ's in both calibers, and I can tell the difference right away. I like big bore rifles, and I have the time and inclination to practice a lot. You have to want to shoot a .400+ caliber rifle to do so effectively. I even enjoy shooting my CZ 505 Gibbs.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
IMHO, which is just and only that; recoil really begins to intrude its ugly self after you go past the 375 H&H.

We'll certainly mark that as only your oppinion as I'm quite aware of some people who are not up to the task of a .300wm or a .338wm. I've shot 4 bores and a .600NE accurately enough by any acount to hunt with let alone the variety of 450-475s. I'll be the first to fess up to recoil making it harder to shoot well. The more recoil a gun has the more I have to "work at it" to shoot it well. The first time I shot a .600NE I was damn near scared motherless! The second time was a different story. I know for a fact that I can shoot a 22lr much more accurately than a .25-06 than a .325wsm than a .375 H&H than a .416 than a .458 than a .500 than a .600 than a 4 bore. Just saying.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by jfm:
Why is the .375 H&H magnum the overwhelming caliber suggestion by professional hunters for clients hunting all game when the .416 is the obvious choice?

Because putting the bullet in the right place with a quality bullet is far more important than just hitting it with a "big gun". Also the .375 is an incredably versitile cartridge even if only incrementaly more versitile than the .416. Versitility is pretty important if you're on a mixed bag hunt. I'm sure the same PHs if asked in regards to dangerous big game hunting they would recommend the largest calibre that the client can ACCURATELY shoot. I'm sure it's just easier to give a catch all like "use a .375".

Brett

There is absolutely, positively, nothing a 416 can do that teh 375 cannot do.

It is only in the mind of those who seem to think bigger is better.

If your fancy takes to hunt with any caliber, regardless of size, go ahead and enjoy it.

But, don't try to tell me that a bigger caliber kills better.

The .416 has one advantage over the .375 in that it will loosen your fillings from your teeth when shot repeatedly.

The .416 is a great money maker in my dental practice.


dale

PS I have a sako .416 for sale. Including loading dies and many boxes of ammo. comes with a wood and composite stock.

If a client is asking the PH what cartridge to bring on his hunt. That as a PH would concern me a bit?
I know everyone on this forum has a vast amount of experience and shoots their guns often and probably is prepared beyond most for a Safari and the game they have targeted. They have done their homework, know the terrain, and probably the shot distance in the local. Most likely have tuned their equipment for the task and know their weapon backwards and forwards and have selected such a gun with great confidence.
I think the PH may ask the client what they plan on using to ensure they are well equipped.
I do not find my 416 uncomfortable to shoot. The only rifle I own that I refrain from shooting over 10-15 rounds in a session is my 470 double. I have been shooting all my life.
Everyone has a different threshold as has been said 1000 times.

The better is the enemy of the good. Or, to put it in more modern language, if it works don't fix it. The .375 works for hunting all animals. It doesn't mean I don't like my .416 Rigby or my .404 Jeffery, because I really do like them, even though I find a lighter more versatile .375 H&H the best rifle if you only have one.

Saeed shoots buffalo almost exclusively with a .375 caliber and numerous old timey guys used lesser calibers (like Bell with his .275 Rigby on elephant, or Ganyana with his 9.3 X 62mm ((is he "old timey"?)) for extremely big game. Perhaps some people think that you can screw up a shot with .458 Lott and it will still be effective. If you take a shot that is dubious because you think a bigger caliber will take care of the outcome, the mistake is with the hunter.

Well you folks can mark this down as my personal opinion, and place it in amongst all the other personal opinions!

Use what you want as long as it's legal for the purpose, as long as you can shoot it porperly. However, in regard to the 375 H&H just let me express this fact for you and it is not just a personal opinion. The old 1912 375H&H has done it all in the last 98 years all over the world on everything from titmouse to elephant! If that is not a case for it's field creds I like the name of a cartridge that can match it's record!

I use bigger rifles for bigger animals,however once I pass the 375 H&H, I certainly don't stop at the .416s. The 375s are known penetrators with proper bullets,and if the old 375 H&H is in my hands when I meet any animal it will do!

As Bret said the higher the recoil the harder you have to work to place bullets accurately. That alone makes the case for the 375 H&H over the 416s for more people, hence the PH reccomendation.

As someone said the 416 will do absolutely nothing that the 375H&H will not with equal bullet placement,with less recoil and easier bullet placement at long range. The reverse is certainly not the case! "IN MY OPINION"!

I've never fired a .375, unfortunately in my neck of the woods we don't see many calibers over .30 so I've never had the opportunity. I own a .416 Rigby and enjoy shooting it much more than my .338WM or .300RUM. Maybe it's a mental thing, but the shove from the .416 doesn't bother me like the smack to my shoulder from the other rifles. I guess that comes down to recoil velocity, does that make sense? I plan to buy a synthetic stock .375 for Alaska one of these days, I guess I'll see how the .375 compares for me when that happens.

jfm - "Why is the .375 H&H magnum the overwhelming caliber suggestion by professional hunters for clients hunting all game?"

Because professional hunters are basing their suggestion on a target audience of the AVERAGE SHOOTER. If you want to have a good idea of the skill level of the average shooter go to a public gun range on a Sunday afternoon and watch people shoot. And remember that they are shooting off a bench and have plenty of time. Now take that same average shooter and stand him up in the bush and hand him a 416 and insist that he shoot very quickly at an animal at 75 yards standing partially covered by brush.

Can you guess the outcome?

The average shooter who has little experience with rifles and limited hunting experience just does not do well with the bigger calibers.

The great misconcepstion among a lot of shooters is that a marginal hit with a larger caliber would do more damage than a marginal hit with a smaller caliber.

Albert Einstein is no longer with us, otherwise it might take someone with his genius to explain to me how 0.014 of an inch is going to do that.

A PH is typically going to suggest the caliber with the broadest application that is legal and can best be handled by the majority of clients. Also, there probably isn't a safari camp in Africa that does not have some 375H&H ammo available somewhere. Since Africa offers such diversity in game and terrain the 375 is a bit more versatile in its ballistic performance than the 416. If you are in a situation where you can't get any closer than 300 yards to a wildebeest or trophy kudu, would you rather be shooting a 375H&H or a 416Rem?

I have both a 375 H&H mag and a 416 Rigby. The recoil from the Rigby is actually less harsh than my 375,, the Rigby is in a CZ and heavier than the 375 H&H by Remington. The 375 is pretty dang good medicine for the big wild boars here in texas. I will pick up the 375 more often even though I love the Rigby because of the cost and ease of getting ammo. Reloading eases the pain but for the guy just beginning to shoot a certain caliber,, off the shelf price on a 416 rigby is over 200 dollars,, 375's I can find for less than 80 dollars. I have a 300 ultra mag that never gets out of the closet,, it's recoil will smack you pretty hard! Give me the push recoil over the mule kick of the 300 ultra mag any day. Bottom line as Saeed says,, both work, eyedoc was shooting a 375 and I was shootine a 416 on a herd reduction buffalo hunt this summer He shot 15 and I shot 15. One day we actually traded rifles, I could not tell that much difference in performance when we were shooting the same type of bullets. The Ph carried a 458 Lott,, He never was in a position to have to use it. A well placed 375 or a 416 did the job.

Lon Paul build a lot of DG rifles and calls the caliber debates mental masturbation. I think he's right. In most cases a good arguement can be made for the 375 or the 416. Both calibers are very popular but the 375 is my choice and what I recommend for clients looking at their first DG rifle purchase. The 375 is very shootable. Almost anyone with minimal practice can get used to the recoil and become accurate with the caliber. It just works for everything. With a couple boxes of premium expanding bullets and a handful of solids you are good to go for anything in Africa. The 375 can also be a very portable rifle. Believe me a 8.5#-9# 375 at the end of the day tracking buff is going to feel a whole lot better than a 12# cannon.

If you do a safari or two and find you'd like to try something else go for a bigger gun but don't ever think you NEED a bigger caliber for Africa.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Lon Paul build a lot of DG rifles and calls the caliber debates mental masturbation. I think he's right. In most cases a good arguement can be made for the 375 or the 416. Both calibers are very popular but the 375 is my choice and what I recommend for clients looking at their first DG rifle purchase. The 375 is very shootable. Almost anyone with minimal practice can get used to the recoil and become accurate with the caliber. It just works for everything. With a couple boxes of premium expanding bullets and a handful of solids you are good to go for anything in Africa. The 375 can also be a very portable rifle. Believe me a 8.5#-9# 375 at the end of the day tracking buff is going to feel a whole lot better than a 12# cannon.

If you do a safari or two and find you'd like to try something else go for a bigger gun but don't ever think you NEED a bigger caliber for Africa.

Mark

Well said, Mark.

Thanks for your replies gentlemen.
Very interesting comments. I guess the problem I have is in the confidence level of some people with certain calibers. Maybe I just want a reason for purchasing another gun in .416 caliber. (For no other reason than "just because")
Again, thank you,

jfm

Oh, heck, I just have to do it. What about Rip's and my .395s?

quote:

Originally posted by prof242:
Oh, heck, I just have to do it. What about Rip's and my .395s?

Prof242, are you okay? I heard you got drilled in Iraq

George

I hit a buffalo in the chest with a .416. It was a quartering frontal shot and it knocked him down but he got up and ran away because the bullet was not well placed. In that case, a big bullet did not make up for a poor shot.

There was a TAA episode or a Hornady's Africa within the past month where one of the gentlemen that seems to have a lot of large double rifles was hunting Buffalo in Mozambique. He shot the buffalo numerous times with a bolt rifle. After the action was over I believe CB ask how well his 505 did on the buffalo.
I cannot recall however I believe he pulled the trigger 3-4 times on the animal prior to it expiring. Took quite a few 50 caliber rounds. Must have had its adrenaline pumping! Catch them when their napping!!

Accurate shooting is always the answer.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Blacktailer:
A PH is typically going to suggest the caliber with the broadest application that is legal and can best be handled by the majority of clients. Also, there probably isn't a safari camp in Africa that does not have some 375H&H ammo available somewhere. Since Africa offers such diversity in game and terrain the 375 is a bit more versatile in its ballistic performance than the 416. If you are in a situation where you can't get any closer than 300 yards to a wildebeest or trophy kudu, would you rather be shooting a 375H&H or a 416Rem?

The above quote is a perfect definition of an "ALL AROUND RIFLE"!

quote:

Originally posted by R. G. Howard:
I hit a buffalo in the chest with a .416. It was a quartering frontal shot and it knocked him down but he got up and ran away because the bullet was not well placed. In that case, a big bullet did not make up for a poor shot.

Try this next time. Right after you shoot, keep the rifle mounted to your shoulder, chamber another round, fire again. That's why there are more bullets in the magazine.

George,
Yeah, got blown up while sleeping. Large chunk of concrete blew through the wall and semi-crushed my chest. Got a piece of plastic mesh that the muscles are healing over to ensure I'll be ok in the future. Did shoot a round of skeet with my 28ga and shot prairie dogs in Wyoming with a .17HMR, so am not doing too badly. My students think its great to be in a classroom with an Iraqi-wounded teacher!

oh, sorry to go off-topic.

quote:

Originally posted by prof242:
George,
Yeah, got blown up while sleeping. Large chunk of concrete blew through the wall and semi-crushed my chest. Got a piece of plastic mesh that the muscles are healing over to ensure I'll be ok in the future. Did shoot a round of skeet with my 28ga and shot prairie dogs in Wyoming with a .17HMR, so am not doing too badly. My students think its great to be in a classroom with an Iraqi-wounded teacher!

oh, sorry to go off-topic.

Ouch!!! Thank you for your service and get well soon!!!

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by prof242:
George,
Yeah, got blown up while sleeping. Large chunk of concrete blew through the wall and semi-crushed my chest. Got a piece of plastic mesh that the muscles are healing over to ensure I'll be ok in the future. Did shoot a round of skeet with my 28ga and shot prairie dogs in Wyoming with a .17HMR, so am not doing too badly. My students think its great to be in a classroom with an Iraqi-wounded teacher!

oh, sorry to go off-topic.

Good to hear that you are doing better. I don't know which is more dangerous though. Being in a combat zone, or in a High school classroom.

jfm, I think I can appreciate why the .375 users are well armed for Africa (for most game), and yet why they still become defensive around .416 users. My impression is that physics is on the side of of the .416 at all ranges. Now if there were general agreement that the .416 is just overpowered for use in Africa, then in that case there would be an excellent argument for the superiority of the .375. Of course we all know that the .416 is not at all overpowered for dangerous game. Because of this I think these two weapons remain in different categories. Thanks for your question.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill 5248:
jfm, I think I can appreciate why the .375 users are well armed for Africa (for most game), and yet why they still become defensive around .416 users. My impression is that physics is on the side of of the .416 at all ranges. Now if there were general agreement that the .416 is just overpowered for use in Africa, then in that case there would be an excellent argument for the superiority of the .375. Of course we all know that the .416 is not at all overpowered for dangerous game. Because of this I think these two weapons remain in different categories. Thanks for your question.

Maybe I misunderstood the origenal question, but IMO, this is not a discussion on what is best "ALL AROUND" for dangerous game in Africa. This is about which is the best "All AROUND" rifle chambering for the most people, and the most applications, and not for just dangerous, but all game in Africa and for the world's game animals. To me "ALL AROUND CHAMBERING" includes dangerous , and non-dangerous game, from smallest to largest.

I would say that every survey that I've ever seen on the subject, when canvassed, the most experienced people in the hunting community have overwhelmingly recommended the 375 H&H.

Now, if the question was which is the best all around chambering for all "dangerous game only" of the world, then the various 416s may be the proper choice. It wouldn't be mine, but it has merit there.

My choice for the best "all around" for the dangerous game all over the world would be either a 450/400NE 3" or a 450NE 3 1/4" in a double rifle, or 458 win mag, or LOTT in a CRF bolt rifle.

IMO these are three different categories!
#1 all around for huntable worlds game,

#2 all around for dangerous game in Africa,

And #3 all around for dangerous game in the world


And if you combine all three, you are right back to #1 at the 375 H&H in a CRF bolt rifle for everything on Earth from titmouse to T-Rex.

I shoot the .458 Lott, a .470 NE and a 450-400. But, I have killed more dangerous and non-dangerous game with the .375 than all of those rifles combined, everything from a Livingstone's Suni, genet cat, etc. up to Elephant. The original question was: "Why is the .375 H&H magnum the overwhelming caliber suggestion by professional hunters for clients hunting all game when the .416 is the obvious choice?" Simply put, I don't think that the .416 is the obvious choice of professional hunters or it would have been the overwhelming caliber suggested by them in all of the surveys taken and published. I think that Mark Young's comments are spot on, and those excellent points were followed by MacD37's observations. But, this debate has and will continue to rage on. Just my 2 cents worth, for what it's worth to any of you.