I saw a buff bull poleaxed by a 375. Made me wonder why you would need more gun.

Dead is dead and either is capable of killing anything up to elephant deader than fried chicken with the right bullet and proper shot placement.

That said, I will admit being a 416 convert despite having shot 60 some odd African animals with a 375 and thinking there would NEVER be a day where I went on a safari sans 375.

To me, the recoil is not an issue and the 416 seems the more prudent choice when buff and jumbo are on the menu.

quote:

Lon Paul build a lot of DG rifles and calls the caliber debates mental masturbation.

Yeah, I'd believe him, a rifle builder, as having more creds than a rifle user, like John Taylor.

The logic I see on AR is quite outstanding at times. Rather, outlandish.

The .375 H&H is so wonderful against dangerous game that all the DG PH's I know use one.

Oops, actually none of them use a .375. Sorry.

Q: Why .375 caliber when .416 is so much better?

A: Some people can't handle the recoil.

I have just returned from a hunt in the Kafue and both my client Jason Moskalic and I carried the .404J. He shot all the small stuff including an Oribi with solids and killed a Buffalo with a shot through both shoulders with a triple shock something or other. As PH I took my .404 along as a carry gun.

A good example of another versatile caliber.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
The .375 H&H is so wonderful against dangerous game that all the DG PH's I know use one.

Oops, actually none of them use a .375. Sorry.

Who said any PH has any common sense?

Just like those who cannot hit the side of barn, PHs like to make up for it by using bigger calibers

Will,

Your caustic posts always make me feel all warm and fuzzy. Didn't your Dad Pondoro write that he liked the 375?

Lon is a very articulate, knowledgable and no nonsense builder with quite a bit of DG expereince. You should make his aquaintence.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Will,

Your caustic posts always make me feel all warm and fuzzy. Didn't your Dad Pondoro write that he liked the 375?

Lon is a very articulate, knowledgable and no nonsense builder with quite a bit of DG expereince. You should make his aquaintence.

Mark

I figgered that might get you going!

Even the one most vociferous here on AR that claims the 375 H&H can do it all doesn't use one!

There is a long discussion of the 375 H&H and all it implies in my new book that should be out about election day. It sheds quite a bit of light on the use of a .375 H&H.

Have a good one.

quote:

Originally posted by Mikelravy:
I saw a buff bull poleaxed by a 375. Made me wonder why you would need more gun.

Agreed! The only one shot kills on cape Buffalo I've had where the brain, or spine was not hit, have been with a 375 H&H rifle. All others have taken at least 3 shots to put down for the count!

I will say that If I had nothing but a 375H&H rifle I wouldn't hesitate hunting anything in Africa, or the world for that matter. Would I rather have something bigger in some cases, hell yes! Even when I do take something larger, my light rifle is always in the 375H&H, 9.3X74R, or 9.3X62 class of rifle. SO, when my light rifle is in my hands and big bad boy shows up suddenly, I don't have the climb a tree to get my big rifle from the tracker who was carrying it!

"The .375 H&H is so wonderful against dangerous game that all the DG PH's I know use one.
Oops, actually none of them use a .375."
Sorry Will, but on my last dangerous game hunt in Zimbabwe in July my PH used a .375 as his back up rifle, on cape buffalo, no less. So, I guess that proves that you're wrong, right? And no, I won't be buying your lousy book!

Will, which calibers/cartridges do you like for all game? It's fairly obvious which one you don't like but I was asking in earnest and would truly like to learn from this post.

Thanks,

jfm

Buy his book and you'll find out!

Use Enough Gun,
I like to buy literature from an unbiased source as I really am asking so I can learn something. No offense to Will but I feel he may be the type whom is set in his mind about things. Nothing wrong there, however, usurping information from those with open minds is my preference on any topic.

Thanks,

jfm

quote:

Originally posted by jfm:
Use Enough Gun,
I like to buy literature from an unbiased source as I really am asking so I can learn something. No offense to Will but I feel he may be the type whom is set in his mind about things. Nothing wrong there, however, usurping information from those with open minds is my preference on any topic.

Thanks,

jfm

Not sure how to interpret that. Based upon my vast experience, I should have no opinion about anything?

I'd like to know who among us is unbiased. Boddington? Taylor? Even John Taylor was biased, about the .375 H&H in fact. And about the .450/.400.

Please list the unbiased sources of information you purchase!

Just yanking your chain.

Take care.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by jfm:
Use Enough Gun,
I like to buy literature from an unbiased source as I really am asking so I can learn something. No offense to Will but I feel he may be the type whom is set in his mind about things. Nothing wrong there, however, usurping information from those with open minds is my preference on any topic.

Thanks,

jfm

Not sure how to interpret that. Based upon my vast experience, I should have no opinion about anything?

I'd like to know who among us is unbiased. Boddington? Taylor? Even John Taylor was biased, about the .375 H&H in fact. And about the .450/.400.

Please list the unbiased sources of information you purchase!

Just yanking your chain.

Take care.

It all depends on your interpretation of "bias".

Take me for instance.

I am totally unbiased.

I just know for a fact that my 375/404 is the best thing since the creation of firearms, for anything that walks this earth.

This is not bias. It is a fact.

I also know for a fact that anyone who think bigger calibers are better is very BIASED towards them.

And if you do not agree with me, blame it on your bias to larger calibers

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by jfm:
Use Enough Gun,
I like to buy literature from an unbiased source as I really am asking so I can learn something. No offense to Will but I feel he may be the type whom is set in his mind about things. Nothing wrong there, however, usurping information from those with open minds is my preference on any topic.

Thanks,

jfm

Not sure how to interpret that. Based upon my vast experience, I should have no opinion about anything?

I'd like to know who among us is unbiased. Boddington? Taylor? Even John Taylor was biased, about the .375 H&H in fact. And about the .450/.400.

Please list the unbiased sources of information you purchase!

Just yanking your chain.

Take care.

It all depends on your interpretation of "bias".

Take me for instance.

I am totally unbiased.

I just know for a fact that my 375/404 is the best thing since the creation of firearms, for anything that walks this earth.

This is not bias. It is a fact.

I also know for a fact that anyone who think bigger calibers are better is very BIASED towards them.

And if you do not agree with me, blame it on your bias to larger calibers

Those .375 H&H guys are funny dudes.

Will, nothing negative meant by that at all and I do appreciate your experience. Maybe I have too much "university thinking" under my belt. Perhaps I should look at this as taking the biased opinion of many and considering that as the collective unbiased opinion of one body. Er whatever. So you never expressed your opinion on caliber/cartridge but I'm guessing it would be .416 as the best caliber for non-dangerous/dangerous game.

Thanks,

jfm

I will make a bet with anyone that...if you put a .375 cal slug through the brain of an ele...it will die indentically to one shot thrugh the brain with a .577 slug.

The .375 H&H has stood the test of time.

Most anyone can learn to shoot it accurately.

If a quality .375 bullet...suited to the game it is shot into...is accurately placed...it will kill cleanly any "un-startled" animal in Africa.

It is very versatile for plainsgame and DG.

It is the perfect caliber for lion.

It is not the best choice for a PH who may need to shoot from the hip at something large just to turn it even if hit poorly.

The various .416's DO have stiffer recoil than the .375 H&H.

Psssst! Don't tell Will! Yeah, we are FUNNY Dudes!

I like (and have) both. Mark Young's comments are excellent and right on point. Regardless of caliber, it is bullet placement that counts the most.

Why is it that the same folks who say the 375 is inadequate for Africa advocate hunting elk with a 243? Just sayin...

quote:

Originally posted by Blacktailer:
Why is it that the same folks who say the 375 is inadequate for Africa advocate hunting elk with a 243? Just sayin...

Many years ago, there was a gun writer by the name of Bob Milek.

I enjouyed reading his writings.

In one article he would say a 243 is not good enough for deer.

In another he says a 357 magnum is great for deer!

Um. Actually, I know of a couple of PHs with a fair amount of experience who carry 9.3X62s. Of course, it is all a trick, and there is no Santa Claus.

quote:

Originally posted by Blacktailer:
Why is it that the same folks who say the 375 is inadequate for Africa advocate hunting elk with a 243? Just sayin...

As far as elk with a 243 Win, I've killed a couple of elk with a 243 with one shot kills. Do I thing k it is the best elk rifle? No I don't! I think the best elk rifle is a 375 H&H with 270 gr bullet at 2550 fps!


BT the jest of this thread is not about being the best for the big five, but what is best all around for Africa for a one rifle for everything. There are few if any chambering in the world today the can claim the spread that the 375 H&H occupies. The cartridges shoots most bullet weights to the same general POI on the target over the greatest distances, yet with heavy properly designed bullets penetrates as well as about anything that has ever been chambered in a rifle. It shoots flat enough to take game out at 300 yds, yet again, with proper big game bullets will get into the vitals of the largest animal still walking the earth. It will kill little whitetail deer with less meat damage that a 30-06, yet it will reach the brain and travel on into the neck of an elephant from a frontal brain shot, or penetrate to the vitals of the Cape buffalo from just about any angle. The recoil is light enough, with even hot loads, that allow the shooter to learn easily to shoot it accurately.

No is not the best choice for the largest dangerous game in Africa, but is for the rest of the world

No it is not a sheep rifle that can be made light enough to carry while climbing mount Everest, and still be easy to place shots at a thousand yards down, or up the side of a mountain to a RM Goat, But a Kudu is in trouble at 300 yds with a guy who knows how to shoot the 375 H&H rifle.

I would say that if I were required to use only one rifle for everything I hunt world wide, or even Africa it would be a 9 pound CRF bolt rifle chambered for 375 H&H, with good iron sights, and a scope in quality QD mounts!

To me that is the definition of an All AROUND RIFLE/CHMBERING for the world!

Would I rather have something larger for some applications, hell yes I would, would I rather have something lighter and flatter shooting for sheep hunting, again yes I would. However neither of those things is ALL AROUND RIFLE/CHAMBERINGS!

Luckily most of use are not limited to just one rifle for everything, but if we WERE we would need an ALL AROUND RIFLE CHAMBERING!
...........................................

Thank you everyone for passing along your knowledge on this issue. I guess Will is not going to respond as to what his choice for an all-around non-dangerous game/dangerous game caliber/cartridge would be. Perhaps this is to increase sales of his literature. Either way, it appears the .375 H&H is pretty versatile as per the majority of the responses here. I also came away with the impression that if a person already owns a .375 H&H magnum, the next step up should be something along the lines of a .458 or .470 caliber. I'm guessing a .375 and a .500 Nitro Express might make a good pair as well. This is the information I was looking for and once again I thank all of those who responded.

Thanks,

jfm

quote:

Originally posted by jfm:
Thank you everyone for passing along your knowledge on this issue. I guess Will is not going to respond as to what his choice for an all-around non-dangerous game/dangerous game caliber/cartridge would be. Perhaps this is to increase sales of his literature. Either way, it appears the .375 H&H is pretty versatile as per the majority of the responses here. I also came away with the impression that if a person already owns a .375 H&H magnum, the next step up should be something along the lines of a .458 or .470 caliber. I'm guessing a .375 and a .500 Nitro Express might make a good pair as well. This is the information I was looking for and once again I thank all of those who responded.

Thanks,

jfm

jfm,

Spot on.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by jfm:
Thank you everyone for passing along your knowledge on this issue. I guess Will is not going to respond as to what his choice for an all-around non-dangerous game/dangerous game caliber/cartridge would be. Perhaps this is to increase sales of his literature. Either way, it appears the .375 H&H is pretty versatile as per the majority of the responses here. I also came away with the impression that if a person already owns a .375 H&H magnum, the next step up should be something along the lines of a .458 or .470 caliber. I'm guessing a .375 and a .500 Nitro Express might make a good pair as well. This is the information I was looking for and once again I thank all of those who responded.

Thanks,

jfm

jfm,

Spot on.

Spot on what?

There is enough wavering around in this thread that one can come up with any conclusion they want, or confirm what they wanted to hear in the first place.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Spot on what?

There is enough wavering around in this thread that one can come up with any conclusion they want, or confirm what they wanted to hear in the first place.

Isn't that really the whole take away from this discussion though? Trying to tell other people what's best for them or what will/should always work for them is a joke as everyone is different and their tollerences are different.

Brett

If you cant handle a 416's recoil than a 375 is definitely better. But if you can there is no Q that the 416 is superior on big dangerous game and anyone who disputes that is not worth arguing with.

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Spot on what?

There is enough wavering around in this thread that one can come up with any conclusion they want, or confirm what they wanted to hear in the first place.

Isn't that really the whole take away from this discussion though? Trying to tell other people what's best for them or what will/should always work for them is a joke as everyone is different and their tollerences are different.

Brett

In that case, where everyone is different and everyone must decide for themselves, why ask the subjective question in the first place?

Another experienced elephant hunter told me that when he came to posting on AR the most frustrating part was when the totally inexperienced would argue about some facet of hunting elephants. Everyone wants to be relevant and have an opinion.

Someday everyone will recognize my opinions are the only ones that count!

quote:

Originally posted by reddy375:
If you cant handle a 416's recoil than a 375 is definitely better. But if you can there is no Q that the 416 is superior on big dangerous game and anyone who disputes that is not worth arguing with.

That's a matter of opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by DLS:

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Lon Paul build a lot of DG rifles and calls the caliber debates mental masturbation. I think he's right. In most cases a good argument can be made for the 375 or the 416. Both calibers are very popular but the 375 is my choice and what I recommend for clients looking at their first DG rifle purchase. The 375 is very shootable. Almost anyone with minimal practice can get used to the recoil and become accurate with the caliber. It just works for everything. With a couple boxes of premium expanding bullets and a handful of solids you are good to go for anything in Africa. The 375 can also be a very portable rifle. Believe me a 8.5#-9# 375 at the end of the day tracking buff is going to feel a whole lot better than a 12# cannon.

If you do a safari or two and find you'd like to try something else go for a bigger gun but don't ever think you NEED a bigger caliber for Africa.

Mark

Well said, Mark.

Yep.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
In that case, where everyone is different and everyone must decide for themselves, why ask the subjective question in the first place?

To get advice from experienced people and then make your own decision based on that advice and your own personal situation, size, ability, recoil tolerence, ect, ect, ect, ect, ect...........

I'm going on an elephant hunt and ask the experienced AR brothers (...and sisters) what their choice would be and they give me collectively 450-500. If I realise they are probably right, but can't handle the recoil perhaps a .375 or .450-400 would be a more prudent choice regardless of advice.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Q: Why .375 caliber when .416 is so much better?

A: Some people can't handle the recoil.

Simple question. Simple answer.

Will, you certainly have a way with people.

Thanks,

jfm

quote:

Originally posted by jfm:
Will, you certainly have a way with people.

Thanks,

jfm

It all depends on what you want to do.

I wouldn't use anything less than a .416 on eles. Though I shot most of my buff with a .375, I wouldn't repeat that. 375's are fine assuming they are shot in the right place. Lion and leopard pretty much die on the spot when shot with a .375, like a whitetail shot with a .270.

If a buff has to be followed up I'd want the biggest thing around. Even though Taylor talked about knocking a buff down with a missed brain shot, I think that is mostly baloney. I have never seen or heard of such anywhere else. When I saw my PH miss the brain with his .470 by putting a nice little hole in a wounded buff's forehead, it didn't even flinch. Pretty scary stuff.

My little 7.5 pound .416 Taylor is about all the recoil I have a need for. The same can be said for the same rifle in .458 WM, though it is a bit more in the recoil department.

I would encourage anyone to buy a .375 first. If they get serious about it later on, they can always get a .416 or something.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by jfm:
Will, you certainly have a way with people.

Thanks,

jfm

It all depends on what you want to do.

I wouldn't use anything less than a .416 on eles. Though I shot most of my buff with a .375, I wouldn't repeat that. 375's are fine assuming they are shot in the right place. Lion and leopard pretty much die on the spot when shot with a .375, like a whitetail shot with a .270.

If a buff has to be followed up I'd want the biggest thing around. Even though Taylor talked about knocking a buff down with a missed brain shot, I think that is mostly baloney. I have never seen or heard of such anywhere else. When I saw my PH miss the brain with his .470 by putting a nice little hole in a wounded buff's forehead, it didn't even flinch. Pretty scary stuff.

My little 7.5 pound .416 Taylor is about all the recoil I have a need for. The same can be said for the same rifle in .458 WM, though it is a bit more in the recoil department.

I would encourage anyone to buy a .375 first. If they get serious about it later on, they can always get a .416 or something.

Bill,

I have knocked down buffalo bulls, on several occasions, with a head shot, despite missing the brain.
And I was using a 375.

None has ever managed to get up again except one. Even then he was unable to do anything except turn around himself like a drunk with 4 bottles of whiskey inside him.

Despite all these years, even you can learn something new.

Dear Saeed:

I would like to know more about your cape buffalo head shots that caused them to drop with your 375/404.

How far away was the cape buffalo when hit?

What was the muzzle velocity of the bullet?

What was the bullet weight in .375 caliber?

What type of bullet was it?

This really intrigues me, since I have absolutely no experience at all with cape buffalo hunting, but intend to remedy that when my cash flow improves.

By the way, you were right about building what I want. I'll probably go the 416 Ruger route, since I've always wanted a .416.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis