quote:

I have knocked down buffalo bulls, on several occasions, with a head shot, despite missing the brain.

Are you sure they didn't nick the spine? Perhaps? I can see knocking down a buff by hitting the spine w/o killing them, instantly anyway.

quote:

Despite all these years, even you can learn something new.

Doubtful!

I took both on a plains game hunt. We shoot 14 animals Everything I shot died. I shoot 3 zebra and 3 gemsbuck and could not tell the differance other than the 416 left a better blood trail and did more damage animals all died about the same. If the 375 will do it the 9.3 x 64 will also.

JD

There are a number of indigenous peoples of the DRC and of southeast Cameroon who routinely hunt and efficiently kill elephant and other dangerous game with bow and arrow or with single barrel 12 gauge shotguns, propelling heavy arrows with a 12 gauge charge. These people have no problems harvesting these huge game animals with the inefficient weapons they carry, yet many of us decry the usage of anything smaller than a .416 magnum rifle for game the size of buffalo. Does this put anything into perspective? Please don't spout the old and tired arguments about how many animals are lost using their primitive methods as this is something I've studied for many years and I can say with certainty, they do not lose an animal once it has been targeted. Their efficiency has to be seen to be fully respected. This is just food for thought in the matter of equipment which should be thought of as being necessary for the harvesting of large and/or dangerous game animals. I don't know about anyone else but this makes me feel pretty pathetic as a hunter and it makes me ponder the necessity of all of our heavy artillery.

Thanks,

jfm

quote:

Originally posted by jfm:
There are a number of indigenous peoples of the DRC and of southeast Cameroon who routinely hunt and efficiently kill elephant and other dangerous game with bow and arrow or with single barrel 12 gauge shotguns, propelling heavy arrows with a 12 gauge charge. These people have no problems harvesting these huge game animals with the inefficient weapons they carry, yet many of us decry the usage of anything smaller than a .416 magnum rifle for game the size of buffalo. Does this put anything into perspective? Please don't spout the old and tired arguments about how many animals are lost using their primitive methods as this is something I've studied for many years and I can say with certainty, they do not lose an animal once it has been targeted. Their efficiency has to be seen to be fully respected. This is just food for thought in the matter of equipment which should be thought of as being necessary for the harvesting of large and/or dangerous game animals. I don't know about anyone else but this makes me feel pretty pathetic as a hunter and it makes me ponder the necessity of all of our heavy artillery.

Thanks,

jfm

jfm, everyone knows a 22 hornet will kill anything with the right shot, given enough time for him to die, and so will the tools used by poachers with home made muzzleloaders, and snares. What they do more than anything is get other people who were not involved hurt or killed. The problem with your description of a tired old argument, is, by definition poachers who are eaten by lions leave no evidence that they lost anything, including their lives! Most poachers do not report other members of their little hunting parties being killed in the national parks or hunting concessions! Like you I respect their expertise but to say they always get their quarry is simply ridicules. They lose animals just like everyone else, but more so loose their lives unreported in places where they will go to prison if they are caught!

I don’t think we need cannons either, but if you want to pay a very high trophy fee for an animal you don’t collect, then the bow and arrow or a 7mm Mauser is for you, but not for me if I have a choice. The 9.3s are as small as I’ll go, and I’ll darn sure pick my shots even then! I will hunt it all with a 375 H&H but I’m careful there as well.
You and I will simply have to agree to disagree on that note!

quote:

Originally posted by Muletrain:
jfm - "Why is the .375 H&H magnum the overwhelming caliber suggestion by professional hunters for clients hunting all game?"

Because professional hunters are basing their suggestion on a target audience of the AVERAGE SHOOTER. If you want to have a good idea of the skill level of the average shooter go to a public gun range on a Sunday afternoon and watch people shoot. And remember that they are shooting off a bench and have plenty of time. Now take that same average shooter and stand him up in the bush and hand him a 416 and insist that he shoot very quickly at an animal at 75 yards standing partially covered by brush.

Can you guess the outcome?

The average shooter who has little experience with rifles and limited hunting experience just does not do well with the bigger calibers.

Indeed, very true!

Mac, I do not disagree with you. I believe your post is accurate but I also believe what I have seen as well. I am not speaking of poachers but of some of the indiginous peoples of certain areas in Africa. Those of whom have the rights to hunt the local game through tribal rights council within the country in which they reside. I am also not saying that I am 100 % correct; only that what I have seen is that those who are involved in the hunting are much more efficient than many of us. Well, at least more efficient than I am. Au contraire; I agree with you more than you would know. Thanks once again for your response.

jfm

quote:

Originally posted by jfm:
There are a number of indigenous peoples of the DRC and of southeast Cameroon who routinely hunt and efficiently kill elephant and other dangerous game with bow and arrow or with single barrel 12 gauge shotguns, propelling heavy arrows with a 12 gauge charge. These people have no problems harvesting these huge game animals with the inefficient weapons they carry, yet many of us decry the usage of anything smaller than a .416 magnum rifle for game the size of buffalo. Does this put anything into perspective? Please don't spout the old and tired arguments about how many animals are lost using their primitive methods as this is something I've studied for many years and I can say with certainty, they do not lose an animal once it has been targeted. Their efficiency has to be seen to be fully respected. This is just food for thought in the matter of equipment which should be thought of as being necessary for the harvesting of large and/or dangerous game animals. I don't know about anyone else but this makes me feel pretty pathetic as a hunter and it makes me ponder the necessity of all of our heavy artillery.

Thanks,

jfm

I guess dem sainted locals can be forgiven for all the snared animals they waste 'cause they was just so, so busy they couldn't get 'round to checking dem snares.

I knew I didn't feel right about all of this. I feel an ignore coming.

Gee, thanks Will. Actually I enjoy hunting and I am not a lib. Also, I don't know that much, which is why I posted. Just because I threw in a little information regarding what some tribal peoples use to hunt the local game doesn't mean you have to go get your panties all up in a knot. Your previous post was civil and informative. Is that what brought you back around to personal attacks? Don't let any good deed go unturned.

Thanks,

jfm

I have been wanting to purchase a big bore rifle, and the .416 will probably be my choice. The .375 was recommended for recoil, but I want to kill.

After reading WDM Bell, I would not be worried about a caliber as large as the .375 killing any game in Africa. It appears to be all in the shot placement, if Bell managed to kill the game he harvested with small bore rifles and solids.

I was reading a reloading book the other day that stated the .375 was not a stopper like the .416. That statement may hold truth, but I believe in shot placement.

I might suggest you target a 9.5 - 10 lb rifle with scope. It will be easy to carry and not so light as to punch you too much. Find a good LOP that fits you. I do not know your stature but 13.75" is about short as I like to go on a big gun. If recoil continues to be an issue, you might try some 370 NF's or 350 Barnes TSX's rather than the std 400's for the 416. Make sure you get a good recoil pad.
Good luck!
I might add I saw a new Mod 70; 416 Rem at Ft Worth, Tx Cabelas this past weekend for $899.00. It has a 13.75" LOP and a fair recoil pad.

EZ

In my opinion, it is not the chambering that is important, it is the shooter. If the shooter can handle recoil and can shoot the .416 instinctively in any situation, it is the better choice. If the shooter cannot handle it, the .375 or something smaller is the better choice. Good shooting.

quote:

After reading WDM Bell, I would not be worried about a caliber as large as the .375 killing any game in Africa. It appears to be all in the shot placement, if Bell managed to kill the game he harvested with small bore rifles and solids.

I was reading a reloading book the other day that stated the .375 was not a stopper like the .416. That statement may hold truth, but I believe in shot placement.

I'm fairly certain Bell was very aware his 275 Rigby would not stop a charge as well (hence his concern for shot placement).

In reality, I think the 275 Rigby could stop a charge, but you have a very small margin for error. This, as well as the 375, gets us back into the argument of what calibers will turn a charge in the event the bullet doesn't kill and stop the animal. People hunt grizzly bears with 300 win mags and 30-06's every year in Alaska. They'll kill a grizzly but I doubt they give the same amount of confidence a 375, 416, or 458+ would give you during a charge.