quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

This is what the bottom line really is. Either the client feels the price is appropriate for the hunt/service, or not. How things are itemized to get there really does not matter. But the itemized list can cause offense.

This is the kind of quote I like:

14 day elephant hunt, 45 pound ivory typical. $24,000 all inclusive (daily rate, trophy fee, transport to/from airport, dip/pack, stay at outfitter's house before/after hunt). Opportunity to shoot plains game at prices shown on trophy fee list. Refund of $8K (trophy fee) if no elephant is shot.

Then the client might say, "OK, I want to do it, but my wife will want to come too." If the outfitter replies that an additional $2,500 charge will apply, it might cause offense or queer the deal.

500G & others with interest

You know we can never please everyone in this world ....

When we give an itemised quote some will say /// Hold it I wanted a final price NOT how much it cost for going to Sun City etc, DONT itemise things

Then the next guy will say ///HOLD IT I want an itemised breakdown off all costs incurred.

We will never win the battle, we only hope to win the war.

I personally itemise my quotes to all enquiries UNLESS some states categorically they only want a final price ...

It's tough being a booking consultant as no matter waht we do there will always be someone whom wants it different, hell at the end of the day it makes life interesting as we find out a lot about life in general and the diversity of choice ...

THEN we get those (special booking agents) whom come along once in a LIFETIME called RAY ATKINSON whom will give someone a price with a handshake and NO CONTRACT, of cource he has taken some monetory hits that way .. BUT his name has never been degraded in proberbly 30+ years in the hunting industry, I wish I could operate that way BUT I just dont have the bank account back up to cover those whom might want to abuse the trust of a handshake deal

Peter

This is not about itemizing. It's about adding $2K or $3K to the price of a hunt for not much extra cost/work/service.

The whole idea of the thread was to find out what everyone thought was appropriate. From a marketing standpoint that doesnt seem to be a concern. From a consumer standpoint there seems to be a bit of disagreement. I hold no ill feelings for either side I just take it into account when booking a hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
This is not about itemizing. It's about adding $2K or $3K to the price of a hunt for not much extra cost/work/service.

500G

With all due respect, I believe you may be trying to equate a SAFARI OPERATION to some other service type industry namely HOTELS etc ///

The problem is if we use the HOTEL scenario they are set up with their core business being from accommodation meals and the likes and they are a (sausage factory) type business where numbers are the name of the game

In the SAFARI or HUNTING business their core business is hunting and most of us stand alone smaller OUTFITTERS DONT have the through put of people to use a swings and roundabout type pricing structure .. Essentially we are in the main a (boutique type industry) serving a small number of specialised clients per season, which is not all year round, and we have to pay our way for 12 months of the year whilst often the season can be only 6 months so we cant just throw in freebies left right and center so to speak.

It might be an interesting exercise for some kind AR guest to (start a new thread) and ask those Outfitters to post whom will allow guests free all year round and not increase or hide the costs !!!

Peter

quote:

Originally posted by RiflemanZ:
What a bunch of cry babies,no problem spending
25K on a safari but will piss and moan over $175 a day for an observer.Don't like it,don't go!

I never cry, I smile all the way back to the bank!!

M16 , not wanting to be fleeced dosen't make one a cheap rat bastard, I go every year. You obviously don't have a clue as to run a proper camp. Cost is important to me. I put my money where it does the most good. Any trashy outfit that highgrades game based on the amount extorted isn't worth going with and there are plenty to go with. I have, on the contrary, done a lot of reading and hunting and an honorable PH won't play that way. All of the issues of MONEY should be worked out before reaching camp. Opportunity at game shouldn't enter into the money equaision at all. A outfitter that plays the way you indicated doesn't deserve any tip. As an outfitter you have to weigh the options also. Do I get some of his money and offer a honorable fair chase hunt or do hold out for all I can get and risk sitting at home and cry about what could have been.

There isn't any way to win this one boys. Those that get the point get it and those that don't will not. As a conusumer and potential custoomer, I am telling you what cuts it with me. Remember I go every year. Whats funny is that many outfitters in the USA are doing the same thing with observer fees. I relegate these outfits to the same bin as those that want to trophy fee deer in Texas (other places also) That is FILE 13 and the trash goes to the dump every tuesday! Been a good wrestling match. AMF

quote:

Originally posted by M16:

Having been a guide for ten or so years let me tell you a little secret. Before the hunters show up there is a meeting between the outfitter and the guides. The one who gets to kill the biggest deer is the one who in the past has left a good tip, pisses and moans the least, or if it is a corporate hunt the one who pays the bill. So the problem is if you beat the outfitter down on the price of an observer are you going to get the top class animals or are you going to be encouraged to shoot the lesser ones. Being a cheap rat bastard is not always a wise choice.

You wouldn't care the name this outfit would you?

I am sure everyone here would appreciate the info as it would be a nice addition to a blacklist.

Peter,

Is the core business of a safari operator to handle observers or to take a client hunting? If we were to believe Adam's post, the safari company could not afford to provide a vehicle to drive around in or a couch to sit on without charging observers $175 to $300/day. If that were true, then the safari company would be losing money on every hunt that does not include observers.

But I do not think that is the case.

I hope you guys can run a successful operation and do well in business. If the prices are not high enough for a bsic safari for you to do that, then raise the prices. But charging unjustifiably high prices for a single observer who adds no real cost to the operation just raises red flags.

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Absolutely unbelievable!

Gentlemen, how can anyone think of getting something for nothing is beyond me.

Saeed who is getting something for nothing. The safari is booked and paid for. The camp staff is there for one hunter and is little inconvenienced for having another along as observer. Something for nothing"??????I think not. As far as value goes, if the observer doesn't have as good a time as it should are you going to say oh well that's hunting/safari/life in the bush. When you put a price on the observer and the service is not up to the price which I doubt it will ever be, then the seeds of discontent are also sown and that could be the straw! If you think your hunting guest had a great time then that should be reflected in the TIP you leave not some mandated outrageous fee. Remember there is a substantial cost in getting the observer to the hunting site and that expense is borne by the hunter not the safari company or PH. If the company incists on an observer fee I personally will pay for it out of the Tip I would have left with those in camp. Fortunately it is MY money they are trying to get not the other way around. I am stingy with money as it comes from very long hours and extremely difficult work. If you need the observer fee you should probably get out of the hunting business and do photo safaris. Everyone pays as they go then.

Sorry my friend, your argument does not hold any water.

As I mentioned before, how about you arriving at the check in countre of an airline, and ask "Is this flight going to South Africa?"

Check in officer "Yes sir it is. It is leaving in two hours time"

You "Would this plane go whether I buy a ticket to fly on it or not?"

"Yes sir, this is a schedules flight, we fly every day at 1800 hours, regardless of how many passengers we have"

"OK then, I will just hitch a free ride. I do not need pay as the plane is going anyway"

I will let you use your own imagination what answer you will get back

This reminds me of that communist minister from Russia visiting the US in the early 60's. Apparently he was a collector of fine automobiles.

Ford "Comrade, here, I present you with this Model T for your collection. It is a present from me to you"

Mikoyan "Thank you Mr. Form, but, I cannot accept presents from our capitalist friends. It is againt our principles as communists. But, I would like to buy it if you would give me a good price"

Ford "OK, how about $5 for this Model T?"

Mikoyan, gets a $10 note from his pocket, and hands it to Ford, saying "I accept mky friend, here, I will take two"

Saeed

I like your overview as it makes a lot of commonsense, at least to an OLD SUN BURNT SOB like me it does

You and me are on the same wavelength as are most of the guests it seems ....

I still have not had anyone RESPOND to my invitation in one of my replies ///

If they think it should be observer guests free then take up my simple challenge ///

Go to SA buy a full blown bells and whistles game ranch, get your PH's and Outfitters licence and run the operation for a year letting all observer guests come FREE and then report back to me 12 months later

I await their response as the silence is DEAFENING

Peter

I still don't understand some of the arguments here. Especially the business economics.

Are the outfitters saying that having a client in camp by him or herself as the hunter and their fees alone do not cover the camps costs and make a profit?

Because some of the comments eg the pup tents etc etc are trying to justify it that way.

It seems they argue that an observer fee is necessary to cover fixed camp costs as well as per person variable costs.

To my simple mind, only trained for a few years and only three qualifications in economics and accounting, I would assume that if I booked a Tanzanian safari with sole use of camp that my daily rates, trophy fees etc would pay for the entire camps costs plus a profit margin for the business owner. If it doesn't I couldn't see the outfitter remaining in business for long.

That adding an extra person who shares my tent, vehicle, dining tent, etc would only add variable costs for one person, basically some extra food and drinks. The meat is most likely game meat and sourced from hunting activities, some goods (eg drinks, vegetables, processed foods etc) would be expensive and require trucking or flying in. A very small extra labour effort for cooking (at $2 a day for the cook most likely), some extra landry labour times (again $2 a day) plus some soap.

Really quite low variable $$$ per person per day EXTRA. I am not talking about safari camps which take observers on side trips and excursions. Photo safaris rates for these sorts of things can make $175 a day look cheap.

But for a hunting safari where the observer just tags along all the work of transporting camps, setting up, staffing is basically covered by my fees.

The rest is cream. Probably why I don't pay it most times.

***

I think Ray argued if an outfitter doesn't charge it, they will add it somewhere else to cover. I may be a fool but I find it very easy to compare costs to costs and total costs of one outfit to another.

But in the end don't always deal with whom is the cheapest.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

As I mentioned before, how about you arriving at the check in countre of an airline, and ask "Is this flight going to South Africa?"

Check in officer "Yes sir it is. It is leaving in two hours time"

You "Would this plane go whether I buy a ticket to fly on it or not?"

"Yes sir, this is a schedules flight, we fly every day at 1800 hours, regardless of how many passengers we have"

"OK then, I will just hitch a free ride. I do not need pay as the plane is going anyway"

I will let you use your own imagination what answer you will get back

Saeed

I think the following example is more apt.

I am paying for a charter plane to fly out to the Selous. As an example lets assume the flight costs $2500 and I am the only passenger yet the plane has eight seats. One is filled by the pilot. The charter company does not "average" costs per passenger but charges on a per plane basis to the destination.

I now decide to take my wife along now.

Do I have to pay a "flight observer fee" of $300 for the extra person considering I am already paying for all seven spare seats, the pilot and the entire plane.

No, of course not. I may have to pay for an extra sandwich and cold coke the pilot hands out for the extra passenger but I seriously doubt they would charge for the extra $3 cost.

That is the crux of the observer fee debate on thisthread.

Peter,

I know outfitters who let wives or a son/daughter tag along for free, and shoot some stuff too. Not in RSA (where the practice seems to be to nickel and dime the client - sorry to say it but it is true), but the higher end companies don't seem to do that. Or at least some of them don't. And all I need is one that doesn't...

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Peter,

I know outfitters who let wives or a son/daughter tag along for free, and shoot some stuff too. Not in RSA (where the practice seems to be to nickel and dime the client - sorry to say it but it is true), but the higher end companies don't seem to do that. Or at least some of them don't. And all I need is one that doesn't...

500G

The reason it is not done often in RSA is bacause they are the one country in Africa with an explosion of game ranches where hunts are conducted more than any other country on these properties, and these operations cost an arm and a leg to run, and they go out of business more often than you and I have breakfasts

Now as to those offering the freebees to guests we all need to know whom they are so we can get on the gravy train asap

Peter

Wow! This thread is amazing. This outfitting business is a very risky venture. These boys have to make a little hay while the sun shines and put it away for the rainy day.

How would you like to be an outfitter/ph in Zim right now? You quoted prices and booked hunts in '04 or maybe'03 and now your paying out your ass for blackmarket fuel and supplies. I wonder what the going rate is for a case of beer today. What about next week? All the while wondering if one of Bob's stooges is going to cut the legs out from under your business. Or one(or many) of the newly displaced 200,000 is gonna help themselves to your supplies (or worse). And what if Zim really blows up bad in the near future?

Yep, them safari boys got it made all right. Money fer nuthin' and their chicks for free.
You ever wonder where they park all their Learjets. I bet the retirement package is pretty sweet too


$150 a day sounds reasonable to me.


$350 an hour for a lawyer, on the other hand, makes my blood boil


Elmo

guys, guys, guys,

Every outfitter can and will charge what they think they can sell at. For every person, there are costs (be they Gov fee or running expenses). In some countries, these may be more than others and those costs should be borne by the client. I trust everyone agrees on this point? The decision to charge or incur these costs is always a calculated one but at the end of the day, the outfitter's aim is to make as much profit as he can. that's why he is in the business

Depending on the situation, an outfitter may bear some or all of the costs of the observer and this has and will continue to happen. you choose who you want to go with. If it is only with outfitters that don't charge you for your observer than good for you.

The observer charge is set by the outfitter based on Market forces. I know outfitters that charge $300+ per day for observers and the majority of their safaris include at least one or more observers. These outfitters are fully booked or close to! It means the rate they charge is fair or else they would no have soo many booked.

We can also safely assume that an outfitter that charges $300 a day for observers will also be selling at higher than average daily rates for hunters. So if someone can afford to pay $2,000 a day for hunting, then $300 is proportionately fine for an observer. If you have a problem with paying $300 for an observer than you will probably have a problem paying $2000 a day as a hunter, so the issue is non-existant to you!

Someone said it earlier, the observer rate is often a negotiating point! Someone also said that the observer rate is a way of making profit. Both are true and I don't see anything wrong with the latter.

For those who claim with pride that they have never paid for an observer and the observer was even allowed to shoot some game, i can guarantee that a law was broken by doing this. That would bother me more than paying the $300 a day.

at the end of the day, an outfitter will charge what he thinks he can get. There will always be someone who won't accept and enough who do if the charge is fair.

quote:

Originally posted by Wendell Reich:

Some people seem to have a problem with someone making a profit.

What do you do for a living?

Exactly.

The Africa hunting crowd isn't your average welfare family. They are guys that have "made a profit" somehow, courtesy of somebody else willing to pay for what they are offering. A lot of the guys on here are paid quite handsomely for their "services".

But when it comes time to pay somebody else, it doesn't seem to be a two way street.

Somebody always wants something for free, but I would bet that very few of them are willing to GIVE something for free, when it comes to THEIR business.

(Hey, I'm the same as anybody else. I like a deal. But I *don't* go bad-mouthing people when they don't GIVE me stuff. It's just a bonus if it happens. If a company WANTS to offer a deal, and willingly sell something at less than cost, OK. But to EXPECT them to lose money, to keep you happy, is wrong.)

I expect to be paid when *I* go to work, how about you?

quote:

Originally posted by M16:
An observer fee is no different than buying an automobile. The base price is cheap and the money is made on the options. It's not unusual for a business to operate this way. Those that don't like the observer fees need to put their business up for public review. Perhaps the outfitters would like to audit and make judgement calls as well.

Having been a guide for ten or so years let me tell you a little secret. Before the hunters show up there is a meeting between the outfitter and the guides. The one who gets to kill the biggest deer is the one who in the past has left a good tip, pisses and moans the least, or if it is a corporate hunt the one who pays the bill. So the problem is if you beat the outfitter down on the price of an observer are you going to get the top class animals or are you going to be encouraged to shoot the lesser ones. Being a cheap rat bastard is not always a wise choice.

I sense that this attidude is far more common in the pay-for-hunting industry than we know.

M16's comments are closer to the truth that most would like to admit. I have had orders before today NOT to let the client I am taking out find or shoot a (bull over 40") as he was a cheepie and not worth a real trophy.

Also, What cost sitting arround in camp? Having just done an absolute budget afair for some mates, one extra person costs at least $50 a day. If you are providing decent food in a remote camp- quite a bit more - under the current situation in zim, a fairly good "steak egg and chips" is going to cost $20 a head in the Chewore. Cokes at #1.50 each in town plus $1 each transport, and then she wants wine with supper...

If you are going to run an operation which doesn't penny pinch or limmit the drinks then $150 a day is fair. ( I have hunted, once, for an outfit that limmited clients and PH's to 2 beers a day, no soda's, Mazoe orange and cold greasy food for all meals... if that is what you want )

Ganyana

Just trying to understand your numbers:

quote:

a fairly good "steak egg and chips" is going to cost $20 a head in the Chewore

As the meat is probably shot on the concession, one or two eggs and one potato including transport is going to cost $20 ?

Fair enough comment on the costs of cokes and wine. Hopefully not Zimbabwean wine, you should pay the clients to drink that . (a mate of mine built a winery at Marondera BTW).

quote:

at least $50 a day ............. then $150 a day is fair

Not bad, a 300% markup to $150 fees, or assuming $100 a day cost a 50% markup.

I wonder if the same argument is debated on forums for lawyers."$350 an hour is/is not too much"

Or for plumbers or any other profession.

In all honesty, go ahead and complain about the price.We all complain about the price of something or other.The price of gas for example.

But after the complaints and moans and groans, if you are in the market for a hunt, you know upfront what the prices are for whatever services given.Either DON"T take an observer, or find yourself a better deal.

When you and your wife sit down for a fine dining experience at a standout establishment like McDonald's, and you only order 1 small drink, thinking that refills are free in any case, and that you'll just share, don't you think that you'll catch some heat from one of those tuxedoed-towel-over-the-forearm waiters they employ?

Nitro- My liver doesn't handel Zim "wine"

Yes, if the meat is shot in the concession- often it isn't especially when there is a disease outbreak- we don't run arround shouting about Anthrax etc but most PH's have a darn good look at the liver...

In a decent camp, most of the quality meat that you can actually cut without using a serated knife is flown in.

My cost of US$50 a day- See PWN or BWN's comments about camp conditions. That is bottom of the line - one coke a day and no you cannot have lunch because I didn't cater for it! If that is what it actually costs for "mates" bottom of the line with no profit at all, if you expect quality food, drink, a vehicle less than 30 years old and even alow the operator 10% mark up then 150 is realistic.

Many people forget the hidden costs...I trashed a tyre. Cannot get the same type so have to but two. US$ 150 each. Broke a water cooler that probably costs $10 at Wal Mart- its $100 here &&& If you don't want the operator watching every cent and to not niglle at every little "extra" expense...

One would assume that the majority of posters here are reasonably intelligent, successful and shrewd. - otherwise they wouldn't have earned enough money to hunt Africa at all -

So why on earth would they expect to get something for nothing? Guys, the bottom line is if you don't like the package go elsewhere. I'm sure that most of you would understand that the safari industry is profit motivated as are all businesses. - And I doubt there's a safari operator anywhere in Africa that earns as much as any reasonably successful lawyer, doctor or banker etc in the US or Europe.

Sure you can get "deals" with some companies, sure you can sometimes "negotiate a special price" - but if anyone thinks they get the same package when they ask the supplier to "negotiate" then they ain't the sharpest tool in the box. A lower price means that somewhere or other corners will be cut.

Some of the loudest complainers on this thread are the very people who should have learnt from their previous mistakes.

For example.....It wasn't that long ago that one of you got tucked up like a kipper on a Tanzanian buffer zone hunt....... Perhaps that kind of experience should be an example of not getting what you don't pay for.

quote:

why on earth would they expect to get something for nothing?

Perhaps we should ask those who posted 400+ entries to another thread on this forum?

Oh great now were getting personal.

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
Nitro- My liver doesn't handel Zim "wine"

Ganyana

Thanks for the reply.

I know your hunts are basic. I read the story.

When travelling through Africa from Nairobi to Harare in 1988 I remember it wasn't hard to get Cokes, in fact they were dirt cheap at about 3c a glass bottle (with a 7c deposit on top of that for the bottle), but any sort of Western manufactured goods was 1) impossible to get; and 2) very expensive and impossible to get. The duty free shop in Lusaka was a paradise after several weeks.

Mugabe is trying to catch up to those days in a hurry I think.


***


Zimabwe wines are OK considering the grapes are grown in a completely unsuitable environment. Got to make do with what one has however. At a price there are of course many excellent South African wines available not far away.

I'll bring you a nice bottle over one day.

Cheers

quote:

Originally posted by Balla Balla:


Now as to those offering the freebees to guests we all need to know whom they are so we can get on the gravy train asap

Peter

Not quite a gravy train - just fair treatment for valued clients.

Another thing I would avoid is a situation where days sitting on an airplane or otherwise in transit count against the total number of hunting days. For example, on a 10 day hunt, days 1 and 10 should NOT be spent riding on an airplane, IMO.

Robin Hurt started charging full rate for travel days. I couldnt believe it when I saw it in his brochure. I guess if you think you are the best why not .

500G,
May I ask what you do for a living?

The outfitter is responsible for the observer's safety and to a degree his/her enjoyment. If the observer is on the truck, the PH and staff have to constantly keep in mind that there is another person who has to be considered - whether they join a stalk or stay in the truck - it is a little extra work. If the observer stays in camp some or all of the time, the camp staff does have to alter their schedules, prepare meals separate from those provided to the hunters on the truck, and ensure the observer's safety. Then there is the fact that in many instances, if the observer isn't enjoying him/herself, it can really affect what type of safari the hunter has. While choosing the observer is the hunter's perogative and the PH can't say don't, if it turns out that person isn't suited to safari, it can be miserable for all concerned.

Sorry, but I think that an observer fee of $175 a day is appropriate. If you have a repeat client with the same repeat observer and the PH knows what to expect then he can decide if that fee should be waived or reduced - or if at the end of the first trip you thought the observer actually contributed to the trip, there could be reduced "other charges." This should be at the discretion of the outfitter and PH and if the client doesn't like it, quit bitching and go somewhere else.

JMO - Shannon

It seems to me then if this was an election the RED STATES or the Republicans have it by a big majority over the Blue State Democrats ...

The Republicions of couse being a a much more fair (USER PAYS) society over the Democrats whom are more of a Robbin Hood type give it away free society

The judge has now ruled ....

You pay for what you get in this world, remembering others work very hard on your behalf so dont take advantage of them and expect a free lunch, well not in Africa at least



Peter

In most cases you get what you pay for.. Be it cars, rifles - well everything I can think of actually.. So I´ll second M16 and Ganyanas opinions here.

What a load of crap. I looked up the same subject and found in the archives the same arguments made 5 times. The end result was, the outfitters think we are cheap if we don't pay high prices, and we the consumer are bums if we don't allow the extortion. I hunt every year. Sometimes I take an observer and sometimes I don't. When I don't it is usually because the price isn't worth paying. I don't loose. The company looses. Rarely am I disappointed in the hunt unless the hunt was misrepresented to me. The idea that high price equates to excellent hunt is ridiculous. Ray Atkinson is offering a plains game hunt on the forum now for $150.00 a day 1x1 in RSA. That is cheaper all in all than many non-hunting observer rates. I don't think Ray is offering a poor hunt for a cheap price. I think he is offering a great value in a great hunt. Many that pay the high observer fee don't know that it is a negotiable item. I once saw a man hunt with a rifle made in the USA. I know that this rifle cost him $14000.00. I asked him what he thought of the rifle and his reply was it was a great rifle because it cost so much. He further stated the reason he bought it was he knew so little about rifles that he picked one that he was told wouldn't let him down. He was satisfied with the deal. I think that he could have paid $4000.00 or less for a similar rifle that would have functioned as well. I also know that most knowledgeable hunters would have done the same and opted for the cheaper rifle and saved the rest of the cash for the hunt. Was the original hunter with high priced gun wrong? NO it suited him fine. Are the rest of us wrong for choosing a lessor priced rifle? NO as it suites us better. The moral to this story is those that sell hunts want all they can get. Those that hunt want to get the most for their money. The decision of whom is right and wrong is left in the balance.

Most cultures approach things like tipping and negotiating a final price differently. In mexico if you dont haggle over a price you are just a stupid gringo. A PH from Zambia told me that many europeans dont tip at all period. The PH said its just the way it is and he gives everybody the same hunt regardless. That is the type of guy I will hunt with again as he is honest and forthwright.

I've been following this discussion for several days now and have several observations.

The safari companies have to charge something extra for an observer.

I don't think it is realistic to compare doctors, lawyers or bankers to professional hunters. Not in the same league.

M16's comment about us "cheap rat bastards" really went up my nose.

We have to find ways to identify and starve out the hunt-for-pay companies with the pissy attitudes. I will not be drawn into a money spending contest with folks who vomit money at outfitters and give out outrageously high percentage tips. If I must do that to get a equal chance at a top trophy, I just won't go any more.

Huntingcat, I dont think you do have to compete with the high tippers for a good hunt. You do need to do your homework when you choose a safari operator. The fact is some people can and always will throw their money around. I came into camp in Zambia after the Swarovski clan, of optic fame, were there. They were handing out binos as tips. Fact is you cant compete with someone who owns 25 company aircraft. I didnt try had a good hunt and went home happy.