I don't want to get into this debate. I'll just negotiate with the outfitter directly. I can see both sides have valid arguments.

I have only paid observer fees once. On my honeymoon. I paid daily rates of $350 per day which I negotiated from US$ to $A, ie a 30% discount. But then the outfitter charged US$100 per day for my wife. Same room, a small amount of extra food and a small amount of extra laundry. This was on an unfenced ranch hunt in Southern Zimbabwe so supply costs would be minimal - ie no remote excess costs. Otherwise they did nothing for her. By chance the property owners (as opposed to the outfitter) did entertain, and also were doing live game capture so she and all of us including even a tracker got flights after game in a helicopter.

I was peeved to be charged US$ for an observer rate, but a small reasonable fee is acceptable.

***

However my main purpose for this post was to ask, why you guys complaining about observer rates, when inviting the visiting PH to stay with you in the USA don't also charge them "observer rates" during the stay?

I concur with Nitrox on his first statement. Its a business and you can charge whatever you feel you can get away with. I also believe as I have said earlier that some observers should be left home. It is however an item that should be looked at when considering a safari. One size doesnt fit all and 200 bucks a day is on the high side if you consider the shooter is already covering the morgage.

The bottom line is that there are some outfitters who will charge the client every last cent they can get away with, and there are others who are interested in a fair price for the package.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by T.Carr:
If I take her along, will the PH pay me $150/day as an "Observer Fee"?




Do I have to cover your air fairs or only hers
I will have to get an extra PH to keep you bussy

Wimpie
No matter what or where just get out there and hunt

I was thinking about observer fees today and one time I do find it hard to justify paying them, is when hiring a videographer. You pay the videographer their daily fee plus have to pay a profit margin to the outfitter on top of it. I have no problem paying a fair daily fee for COST but not a profit margin.

Especially when the outfitter promotes the creation of a video as an additional service.

I'm glad most of you guys don't work for me. The reason they charge $175 per day for an observer is the same reason they charge anything else. They think they can get it. If they are wrong they go broke.

Some of you guys have been to africa multiple times on safari.IMO $175 is a deal for an observer.I have never been on safari and probably won't get there unless i win the free trip.I think most hunters that go on safari are well to do financially so the $175 a day is nothing to them.I know a bank president here in wisconsin that has his house full of african game trophys from a few trips to africa and i'm sure he would't complain about $175 a day for an observer.Whats $175 a day when your already spending $10-20K for the trip.

Check out the blue collar bwana thread and you will see that all of us arent bank presidents. We only negotiate because we have to, otherwise we stay home and watch it on the outdoor channel.

The last plain's game hunt I did in South Africa only cost ME about US$175 p.d. let alone an observer. It was a special rate however through a friend. Its a false assumption that everyone who hunts in Africa has money to burn though often many in the industry prices this way (especially the involuntary freight and shipping components AFTER you go home).

Fees can be adjusted by the safari company and they at times follow the economy and the political situation of the country you are hunting in.

Bill C,
Bunk, eat and travel free?, now that would depend..In a remote camp in TAnzania, that requires an expensive air charter two ways, most food stuffs are flown in, most all equipment is driven in on a perhaps 5 day drive on no road areas, taking all tents bedding food and 20 camp staff to build a camp in about 3 weeks, and on an on and if you let anyone stay for free that would really bite into ones profit, which isn't all that much except in the mind of some that have a little knowledge, and thats a dangerous thing I have been told, so $300 per day is a fair and equitable charge no question about it...Only to someone that does not understand the business is this a question...

A lodge in So. Africa should be less expensive, but that would depend on the expense of building lodges, buying game, and what they have to offer etc...

At any rate the choice is up to the buyer and I am sure he will find someone that will omit an observer rate, but just hide it in some other cost and use that as an excuse to cheapen up his hunt in many cases...If someone does cut that observer rate then your going to forfiet some quality somewhere...

I personally don't deal on the fixed pricing, because to do so I would have to cheapen up the hunt somewhere, and who wants that sort of client in the first place...Traveling half way around the world and worried about a daily rate seems a little ridiculas to me...

Better to look for hunts that are priced right and competitive with the others and worry about the Companies reputation...

Ray, my friend, please re-read my post carefully, of course it should NOT be free. It should be fair to both parties. You and I talked about this very topic a while ago when I was considering taking my sons to Tanzania this year. Of course everybody needs to make money, or why be in business.

EDIT - for the record, I am with Ramhunters post below 100%. I NEVER said anything about "free". Bill

I see the booking agents continue to defend observer pricing at whatever the outfitter wishes because of business costs. Gee, I wonder if some of those costs are deeply discounted hunts for booking agents?

Ray, we seem to see eye to eye on many issue. Not on the observer fee. If I charter a flight and pay for it, I can put as much stuff in it as is possible including an observer. No skin off the PH ass. This could be different if the hunter wants to bring the whole family of 5. Then there is some extra expense. If you are already having to feed up to 20 people in camp off the hunters daily rate and trophy fee then the observer rate should be 1/20th of the rate for others in camp. Neither my wife and I can eat $175.00-$300.00 a day in food and drink especially when we are eating game I shot. If you have exclusive use of the camp-not one single soul in the camp you didn't bring with you there shouldn't be any extra consideration. If it is a mixed camp with several safari groups, then one more can not increase the price at all. The extra expense to do laundry should be negligible in the overall scheme of things as that is the only thing I can think of that can not be accommodated for easily. As in most things in life all things are relative. One can stay in almost any really fine hotel in Africa for between $50.00 to $150.00 a day and that includes a fine breakfast. As far as the observer rate, that dog won't hunt for me.

Folks,

In some ways I'm kind of getting a kick out of this thread. Are you folks saying that the experience of being on safari and participating in the safari fully other than pulling the trigger is of little value? I think there is a lady sitting next to me on another monitor that would argue that point to the enth degree with you. When we go on safari it is our hunt and I know we both believe that Sadie's observer fee is a bargain.

If any of you folks think that we got ripped off I challenge you to call my home and speak with Sadie. I can't imagine she would not change your mind.

Regards,

Mark

Mark,

The point is that once a safari for one is fully paid for, adding a wife adds nearly nothing to the safari company's expenses. That is why $175 to $300 per day for a spouse looks like profiteering.

The point is not to belittle the value of the service but to underline the actual cost of that service.

Do you have to tip extra if you take an observor along?

Absolutely unbelievable!

Gentlemen, how can anyone think of getting something for nothing is beyond me.

I get a bit of a kick out of all the guys defending high observer fees due to it kind of making their wives feel appreciated. Sort of "My wife deserves to come along at $300 per day, and we think that's a bargain for the experiance that she is getting".

At least that's the impression I'm getting from some of you.

And I have trouble swallowing this. Because if your observer fee was only $100, it sounds like some of you think this is so cheap that she will feel "less worth", and thus not be as happy. As if it is necessary to pay the big bucks to show how much you love her. And for her to have fun. I'm sure that most wives would have just as much fun in reality if it was for free. Or at least reasonably priced.

And those that say that if you're going to fly halfway around the world, the little extra cost of a "high" observer fee doesn't matter much, I can only say The differance during a 10 day hunt between paying an observer fee of $1000 and $3000 adds up to a nice trophy fee or two (or more, depending).

I'm not saying that extra activities, an extra Land Cruiser, etc. for her to drive around in and so on should be for free, there can be a set price for such activities, but it should reflect more on the real costs. And I doubt most here know anything about real costs in africa, although some like to post about the high cost of logistics. And when a wife does basically nothing but follow in the hunters/husbands footsteps all day, and doesn't demand extra side trips and so on, then the costs are minute. Most woman eat and drink half of what men do, so even with the logistics of getting supplies to camp in remote areas, it is trivial to the outfitters total costs.

Note that I think a low observer fee is the way to go for 1 spouse/girlfriend/etc. A whole family with wife, mother-in-law, and 3 kids, obviously makes things a bit differant, but is still no reason to go overboard. And special extra activities can be stated on a "menu", to be payed in the end just like trophy fees.

Saeed,

It seems to me that those who are against high observer fees are not demanding that it should be for free, but just priced in a more reasonable way.

Guy's I've been avoidint this thread up till now but I have to say that anyone that thinks that they should not pay for an observer has never tried to run a business.

The thing is that all anybody seees is that their wife/girlfriend/boyfriend etc wont eat or dring $150+ of food a day and so they feel cost is excessive. Over the course of a season if every observer comes and eats drinks etc for free the variable costs go up by 50%.

It's not just the food but the fuel to heat water for showers that will double as will the ammount of laundry and cleaning and washing up and and and.... we haven't even mentioned that someone gets to spend a couple of weeks in some spectacularly beautiful country for free??

Come on guys, if not hunting is justificatiopn for not paying, then you are implying that any non hunting hotel has no costs and so should offer free accomodation....

Regards,
FB

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Absolutely unbelievable!

Gentlemen, how can anyone think of getting something for nothing is beyond me.

Saeed

What observer rates are you paying per person?

Somehow I think you might negotiate some bulk discounts.

PS I don't argue against observer fees at all. I've paid them and will pay them again.

Saeed

I don't think anyone is advocating observers for free. I believe the opinion of those of us arguing against present rates is let's make it a reasonable consistent number such as $100 to $125 per day. To me after taking my wife with me on 10 trips this seems like a number I don't mind and based on my experience not going to be a loser for the outfitter.

Gentlemen,

As a relative newcomer to this forum, I have been following this post with much interest and amusement. Much of the argument seems to be centered around what is a "fair and reasonable" charge in relationship to the cost of providing a service. What seems to be escaping many people is the fact that in a free enterprise system, the market sets the price, not some theoretical calculation of fairness. Under this system, the seller can ask whatever he thinks the market will bear. The buyer has the options of paying what the seller asks, trying to negotiate the pricing down, or walking away. The evening hand of competition is what keeps the system working.

If a seller charges "too much" for anything, he will lose customers to his competition and eventually go bankrupt. If a seller charges "too little", he will fail to cover his costs and will end up with the same result. There is a broad band between " too much" and "too little".

Bottomline, quit complaining. The way to book a hunt is to look at all the relevant factors: the quality and quantity of the game, the experiance levels of the PH's, the quality of the food and accomodations, the associtated transportation costs, the handling of the trophies, the ethical standards and trust worthiness of the operation, the daily hunt costs, the trophy fees, the cost of observers, etc. One should then make his decision based on his personal assesment of the value of the total package versus competitive offerings . There are lots of choices out there and no one has to pay one cent more than he thinks is fair.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Absolutely unbelievable!

Gentlemen, how can anyone think of getting something for nothing is beyond me.

We get to post stuff on this forum for free.

The booking agents and safari operators need to keep in mind that if their observer fee makes then uncompetitive, or give the client an impression that he is being ripped off (i.e., a fee disproportionate to the added cost), the business will go elsewhere.

Undoubtely there are suckers who will pay outrageous observer fees. But the wise consumer will not.

How much did you say you pay for observer fees? Is that the published observer fee rate or a specially negotiated deal?

Gentlemen
As ramhunter and others have said "welcome to the free market". The supplier (outfitter) has a service to sell. He also has an investment in his service ( equipment, franchise fees, etc. ). An investment means money, money that he has a right to earn a return on. He sells that service for what the market will bear ie: what a customer ( the client - you or me ) will pay for it. If he gauges the market correctly you or I buy, if not we look for the same service offerred by someone else for a different price. If too many clients look elsewhere the outfitter fails, if enough buy - he makes money. He has the right to set his price and stick to it. The only thing that we as a buyer have a right to demand is that he faithfully provides the service for the agreed upon price. If you don't like the outfitter's price go to another. I'm sure that someone out there can meet you expectations, if not than maybe the problem lies with your expectations.
If you want to dance you have to pay the band, and the market sets the band's price

TerryR

Well stated, Terry.

quote:

Originally posted by Ramhunter:
Gentlemen,

As a relative newcomer to this forum, I have been following this post with much interest and amusement. Much of the argument seems to be centered around what is a "fair and reasonable" charge in relationship to the cost of providing a service. What seems to be escaping many people is the fact that in a free enterprise system, the market sets the price, not some theoretical calculation of fairness. Under this system, the seller can ask whatever he thinks the market will bear. The buyer has the options of paying what the seller asks, trying to negotiate the pricing down, or walking away. The evening hand of competition is what keeps the system working.

If a seller charges "too much" for anything, he will lose customers to his competition and eventually go bankrupt. If a seller charges "too little", he will fail to cover his costs and will end up with the same result. There is a broad band between " too much" and "too little".

Bottomline, quit complaining. The way to book a hunt is to look at all the relevant factors: the quality and quantity of the game, the experiance levels of the PH's, the quality of the food and accomodations, the associtated transportation costs, the handling of the trophies, the ethical standards and trust worthiness of the operation, the daily hunt costs, the trophy fees, the cost of observers, etc. One should then make his decision based on his personal assesment of the value of the total package versus competitive offerings . There are lots of choices out there and no one has to pay one cent more than he thinks is fair.

There are some very interesting and good posts on this thread ...

IMHO this gentleman (Ramhunter) has posted the most informative and unbiased overview of the real scenario,

I do respect all views BUT this poster has avoided personal vendettas and stated the obvious, and it is VERY hard to argue with his reasoning, and I will be very surprised should somone take him on in further debate

Regards, Peter

Peter, your argument seems to be that you charge observers $175 per day simply because you think can get away with it. Not because the observer adds costs to the outfitter.

Can I please get the popcorn eatting Smiley..

Man oh Man, here I thought that most of you complaining about the observer fees were such "experts" but on this issue your ideas are not what reality is. But now I realize that those of you complaining about observer fees actually do not have a freakin clue on how much it costs to operate and just do simple daily business in Africa. I can only speak for Tanzania, but if I gave some of you my yearly operating costs and all the extra costs we put back into the communities etc. and told you to make a profit for the year, you would run back home with your tails between your legs

Now, I guess one could get by with very low operating costs if they have lousy areas and do not care about the quality of their camps nor the management of the areas and putting back into the areas and communities, but then again, you would not last long anyway or go bankrupt, as some already have who post on this forum.

If one really wants to see the difference in a low priced observer rate and what that would involve compared to what an observer gets when paying the normal observer fee, then it would be as simple as this. A free observer or an observer for $50 per day this would be possible if they came to camp, stayed in a pup tent. We would deliver their meals to them at their pup tent, as they would not be able to have access to the rest of the quality camp as this really costs a lot of money and only for paying clients. They would not be allowed to go around in the area either on the vehicle as the area costs a lot to have, and the vehicle is very expensive, as well as it would require the PH to make sure that the observer was also taking care of and kept safe. They could not have any cold drinks either as the fridges and freezers also cost money and a lot of hard work and cost transporting that big stuff into camp. I hope you are getting my drift by now.

Nothing is cheap in Africa let alone for free! Every little thing costs money and if an observer wants the luxuries of a nice camp and cold drinks and all the other benifits of being in the area etc etc. then they have to pay for it. Hunting or being in a safari camp is not a right and is your privilege. If you want to continue enjoying the fruits of Africa, then you have to step up to the plate and contribute all the way down to the observer.

I do not think that is is fair that they charge $5 for a bag of popcorn or $5 for a Coke at the movie theaters, but if my wife wants a bag of pop corn then I have to pay the price to enjoy that service. I do not see the theaters giving me a discount because I take my wife to observe the same movie either.

So, think about what you are complaining about and if you really know what you are complaing about makes any sense. It is the same as anywhere else in the world or anything else that we do "if you want to play, you pay!" If you do not want to pay then I guess you sit behind your computer and complain.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Peter, your argument seems to be that you charge observers $175 per day simply because you think can get away with it. Not because the observer adds costs to the outfitter.

Hi 500grain

Not at all, you have made a presumption.

I will make it quite clear

1) WE have always advertsied a standard observer rate since becoming a safari hunting operator back in 1994 in SA and 1997 in Zambia.

2) The rate presently is $175/day clearly shown on my website and on all promotional brochures and is there for all to see

3) AS I pointed out in one of my previous responces, at the end of the day we discuss a final hunt price with a client group and include itemised prices within a final QUOTE OFFER ... the client then discusses the price offer further or accepts it or rejects it.

4) Sometimes we might agree upon a reduced hunting, or observer rate, dependant upon the clients final specific requirements and our discussions at that time, nothing is set in concrete ... BUT we do not offer free daily rates for observers unless special circumstances might prevail. These circumstances have not yet prevailed.

5) To date we have not had any complaints and all observers have been happy with their rates services and the likes which we have discussed and agreed upon and included in their final contract which they accept or reject

So I really cant add any more information

Regards, Peter

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Absolutely unbelievable!

Gentlemen, how can anyone think of getting something for nothing is beyond me.

Saeed who is getting something for nothing. The safari is booked and paid for. The camp staff is there for one hunter and is little inconvenienced for having another along as observer. Something for nothing"??????I think not. As far as value goes, if the observer doesn't have as good a time as it should are you going to say oh well that's hunting/safari/life in the bush. When you put a price on the observer and the service is not up to the price which I doubt it will ever be, then the seeds of discontent are also sown and that could be the straw! If you think your hunting guest had a great time then that should be reflected in the TIP you leave not some mandated outrageous fee. Remember there is a substantial cost in getting the observer to the hunting site and that expense is borne by the hunter not the safari company or PH. If the company incists on an observer fee I personally will pay for it out of the Tip I would have left with those in camp. Fortunately it is MY money they are trying to get not the other way around. I am stingy with money as it comes from very long hours and extremely difficult work. If you need the observer fee you should probably get out of the hunting business and do photo safaris. Everyone pays as they go then.

Isn't it amazing that those defending the observer rate rape are in the business and the customer is the one getting the hit. To all of those on the forum that have hunting as a business the question to ask are you fully booked each year. If you are more power to you. Most of those in Reno this year were only half booked for the year. How many safari companies offer budget hunts each year? Would you do that if you were fully booked? Probably not.

What a bunch of cry babies,no problem spending
25K on a safari but will piss and moan over $175 a day for an observer.Don't like it,don't go!

quote:

I do not think that is is fair that they charge $5 for a bag of popcorn or $5 for a Coke at the movie theaters, but if my wife wants a bag of pop corn then I have to pay the price

I think this is a perfect example. If you want a coke and popcorn in a movie theatre, you pay the money, smile and go on, this alone does not stop me from going to a movie if I really want to see the movie, I just don't pay the $25 for a couple of cokes and a popcorn. A $200 or $300 a day observer fee does not stop me from going hunting, I just might not take an observer. The question that was posted in the beginning was "what do you think about observer fees." I think it is one of the more profitable add ons.

Those of us who have to get a bank loan to do these hunts so the fee is important. I do not say it should be free or even at cost. All derserve to make a profit on a product. I am booking for 06 and my wife looked at the 175.00
fee and said "for that we both can stay in London or Madrid". And she is correct. The free market works, she refused to go.

quote:

Originally posted by Balla Balla:
a final QUOTE OFFER ... the client then discusses the price offer further or accepts it or rejects it.

This is what the bottom line really is. Either the client feels the price is appropriate for the hunt/service, or not. How things are itemized to get there really does not matter. But the itemized list can cause offense.

This is the kind of quote I like:

quote:

14 day elephant hunt, 45 pound ivory typical. $24,000 all inclusive (daily rate, trophy fee, transport to/from airport, dip/pack, stay at outfitter's house before/after hunt). Opportunity to shoot plains game at prices shown on trophy fee list. Refund of $8K (trophy fee) if no elephant is shot.

Then the client might say, "OK, I want to do it, but my wife will want to come too." If the outfitter replies that an additional $2,500 charge will apply, it might cause offense or queer the deal.

An observer fee is no different than buying an automobile. The base price is cheap and the money is made on the options. It's not unusual for a business to operate this way. Those that don't like the observer fees need to put their business up for public review. Perhaps the outfitters would like to audit and make judgement calls as well.

Having been a guide for ten or so years let me tell you a little secret. Before the hunters show up there is a meeting between the outfitter and the guides. The one who gets to kill the biggest deer is the one who in the past has left a good tip, pisses and moans the least, or if it is a corporate hunt the one who pays the bill. So the problem is if you beat the outfitter down on the price of an observer are you going to get the top class animals or are you going to be encouraged to shoot the lesser ones. Being a cheap rat bastard is not always a wise choice.