I dont think observer rates are such a big issue.

If you consider the arguments being put forward about the observer costing hardly any extra to the operator then the same could be said if you go on a photographic safari aswell.

Photographic safaris you are looking at $250-$500 a day at most places, so i dont think a hunting operator charging $175 a day is too bad considering the experience the observer will get whilst on safari.

Man I love this string, it reminds me when I do Mom and Dad,s tax return and they bring Jr,s info and expect it to be done free, after all it is only my time I don't have any additional costs, yea.

Hell fellows, I'd give $150 per day to keep observers out of my camp, so I can hunt unhendered!

My wife has gone with me both as an observer (I think she payed US$150 a day back then), and as a hunter using her own PH. For an observer sleeping in the same bed/tent, considering the total cost and daily rates of a hunting safari, I think charging around US$75 would be reasonable. Anything over is a bit much IMO.

My opinions on what things should cost changed after us spending a year being self sufficient in africa. The trip gave us more insight into what things actually cost in many african countrys, and although transport costs etc comes into the picture in a greater degree in africa then here in Europe, the food goods etc that would be consumed by an observer were usually a fraction of the cost compaired to Norway. On avarage, the 2 of us used US$75 per day thru 20 african countrys. Including everything. Food, fuel, various permits, you name it. Even visas (which often were US$75-100 per person in many countrys, so it added a lot to the total expense).

A lower observer rate for a spouse would for many people most likely leave more money to be used on trophy fees, or a new hunt quicker. And thus the outfitter would in total make more money anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
So I guess you guys would not mind paying $175 to be an observer when your wife delivers a baby, right?

I'm sorry, but I don't see any correlation between a a child birth and a hunting trip.

When I go to a baseball game I always invite my girlfriend; sometines she goes, sometimes she doesn't. When she does go, I wouldn't dream of telling the people at Minutemaid Park that she should get in for free because she is not really a baseball fan and will not watch most of the game.

If she didn't go, they could sell her seat to someone else.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
I fail to see why any agent, outfitter, PH or anyone else should have to justify their costs to anyone except the taxman and I further think it's a bloody cheek for anyone to ask them to.

That is exactly the point! $175 extra per day for someone to sleep in the same cabin with you and eat a slice of toast at breakfast cannot be justified.

Thank you for highlighting it.

Perhaps one solution is to book direct then, agree to pay the observer fee, but insist on a 15% discount.

Other than asking if Tanz was worth the premium I have not questioned the rates when looking for a hunt. I have no choice but to pay the going rate or stay home IMHO..

On the otherhand I know the outfitters are not going broke, even if some of act like it..

I want to hunt full bag 1903 style for $10 a day the outfitter wants to make a living. Somewhere we can meet in the middle.

So go shoot impala & warthog in a second rate area with a second rate PH & stay in a second rate camp...... ......

If you want to reduce the prices of the safari industry try asking SCI to stop asking outfitters etc for donations, publish a magazine that offers the hunting industry free advertisments, bring down the price of oil, wages, insurances and stop timewasters asking for things they can't possibly afford. - All those things and many other factors bump up the costs.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
So I guess you guys would not mind paying $175 to be an observer when your wife delivers a baby, right?

I'm sorry, but I don't see any correlation between a a child birth and a hunting trip.

When I go to a baseball game I always invite my girlfriend; sometines she goes, sometimes she doesn't. When she does go, I wouldn't dream of telling the people at Minutemaid Park that she should get in for free because she is not really a baseball fan and will not watch most of the game.

If she didn't go, they could sell her seat to someone else.

Yeah.... and if she did go I could pay for her seat.

My wife and I returned from our first African Safari in May. The observer fee was worth every penny to me and my wife.

The PH made sure she was involved with the entire hunt from the beginning to end. When we stalked Kudu and would discover the bull to be too young the PH would continue the stalk with my wife for her to get pictures.

As we discovered other game we weren't hunting he would take time to point it out and make a stalk again for pictures. She was put in positions several time to learn about the tracks, to take pictures of certain sunsets or landscapes.

My wife's attitude before the trip was, "I was going along to support my husband." But she was kept so busy and in touch with everything that was going on she is already planning our next trip - still as an observer.

I will gladly pay it again.

Hey Fred,

Sounds like a cheap way to go on more safaris without spousal hassle!

Good plan of attack!

Only kidding man,

Jeff

My first trip to RSA, my wife would spend every morning at camp sleeping late and got pampered at camp. After a few days, the camp manager got her to shoot a 30-06 a few times, and convinced her to take an animal herself. Her first African game was a Zebra with a perfect heart shot at something over 100 yds. She's been hooked on hunting ever since. I think paying the observer fee was cheap; now I've got a hunting partner for life. Prior to that she would go hunting occasionally, but she never shot anything. Now she's got about a dozen African animals, a couple 140 Class WT's, a moose, etc. And she has recently started bow hunting.

Well the debate has been quite interesting on the observer rate.

Some guests mentioned there is no free lunch in this world !!!

WELL the only place I know of is the AR FORUMS so THANKS to Saeed and staff.

I guess we pay in the long run from RSI and loss of sleep and even broken marriages in some cases sitting behind this DAMN SCREEN till all hours of the day & night

Peter

If I take her along, will the PH pay me $150/day as an "Observer Fee"?


Regards,

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
I fail to see why any agent, outfitter, PH or anyone else should have to justify their costs to anyone except the taxman and I further think it's a bloody cheek for anyone to ask them to.


To put it more bluntly - if you can't afford it go elsewhere - but all the while you buy cheap you ain't gonna get a top class product....

Said only an outfitter charging $600 per day for a PLAINS GAME safari and a $225 per day obsever rate could!! Well done (not) .

**** T Carr had the best post on this silly subject, hell I'd pay $150 to bring her to my camp for a week or so just to look at her...probably couldn't afford to do much more

Where can you possibly take your spouse for $175/day...not on a cruise or to Vegas or to St Thomas, or to Rio...if you can't pay the going rate you might be better off taking her to McDonalds for a Big Mac, hey big spender go for broke SUPERSIZE IT!!!!!!!! then tell the tenie bopper wiping tables down how you killed that ele for the 20th time!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't think anyone is proposing elimination of observer costs. The point of the question is what is reasonable. No question costs occur with observers. I would appreciate it if the outfitters would give a reasonable estimate of what they feel is fair based on the "typical" observer's needs. The point of the post is the charges are now all over the board. I realize the remoteness of the area comes into play but I see dramatic differences in SA where supplies are more easily obtained. The concept advanced that you get what you pay for doesn't make sense. The best steak I've eaten was not because it was the most expensive. Please remember the client does have a way of protesting what they feel is excessive charging. It is called the tip!

Terry (and the Prince's girlfriend) to the rescue yet again!

I can see it now . . .

"No, honey, you go off into the bush after DG with our intrepid PH. No, I insist, in all fairness, it's my turn to be the observer today . . ."

This has got to be one of the dumbest strings I've seen. It's like a damned train wreck!
Of course you've gotta pay for the extra body! But, being from California I'm used to hearing dumb arguments like, "Illegal aliens are going to drive anyway, so we might as well give them licenses".

Hey, Terry! I'd pay the $150 as an "observe her" fee!

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by almostacowboy:
This has got to be one of the dumbest strings I've seen. It's like a damned train wreck!
Of course you've gotta pay for the extra body! But, being from California I'm used to hearing dumb arguments like, "Illegal aliens are going to drive anyway, so we might as well give them licenses".

Hey, Terry! I'd pay the $150 as an "observe her" fee!

Dave

Well if you think that is DUMB ....

How about this, Talk about overcharging for observers ...

Well this is possibly pushing the limits of human degradation, and apparantly they are also considering a SAFARI Series

Peter
--------------------------------

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You may have heard that Hunting for Bambiâ„¢ was a fake, fraud, or hoax. Here's a question. How can a video (entertainment) be a hoax? It's an actual product you can purchase.

Mabe the whole idea of this thread was to bring to the attention of the astute outfitter a new marketing tool!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well the concensus is that there are two distinct canps. Many agree that the cost is minimal for some observers but vary from observer to observer and safari to safari. The other camp feels that observers should pay what the market will bare. Why should a safari company take a chance on undercharging someone they dont know. In the best case senerio when booking repeat safaris the observer fee is open for negotiation.

If you went to the SCI convention by yourself, what would it cost you? Now, if you took your wife/girlfriend along, what would it cost now? Would she eat or drink anything? Did it cost her anything to travel there? If she was treated any less than you were in any resturant or hotel, would you raise hell? If you're gonna play, be prepared to pay. Nothing's free!

Bull1

Let's see, to go to SCI by myself, about $500 for air fare, since they double the room rate during the convention about $125 a night for three or four nights, just getting in the door, about $300. By myself, I would not pay the $100 each for the meals. About $1500. Wife comes along, $500 more for air fare, $300 more to get in the door, if she decides she wants to go to the evening meals, maybe another $400 -$500. She will of course want to gamble, at least another $500. Then she will buy some jewelry, $1000 -$2000. Yes, nothing is free!

Its about free enterprise, making money, earning a living. I think asking a fee for services rendered is fine. If company X sets its fees, posts them and you know it going in whats the problem ?

Making a profit isn't a crime. I own my own business and I charge what the market will bear for the service I provide. Why should a safari company be any different..................JJ

My PH charges a daily for non-hunters and frankly, I think it's a bargain. Hell, most of us pay close to 100 bucks/day for a motel here in the states. While we're in Africa , she gets treated to a five star service that can't begin to be matched here in the US, in short, she's made to feel like a "princess" and that's fine by me. Further, if you worry about the 150/day, maybe you shouldn't really be going on one. jorge

Observer fees just like trophy fees have a cost basis, but that doesnt restrict the safari operator in what he charges for that service. Its just one of the things you compare when you book a hunt. Competition and access to information made available from places like this web site determine who can charge what for whatever.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

That is exactly the point! $175 extra per day for someone to sleep in the same cabin with you and eat a slice of toast at breakfast cannot be justified.

When my wife stays with me in a hotel in the states or anywhere else, I do not pay extra for her to sleep in the room. I have taken my wife on a couple of shorter hunting trips with me and paid the daily rate for an observer, but if I am going on a 21 day safari, she has stayed at home. Like the man said, she is eating a slice of toast for breakfast, eating meat that I paid to shoot, and being waited on by a staff member who is being paid maybe a dollar a day, and tipped by me the equivalent of several months wages in his home country. I am not going to pay $200 or $300 dollars A DAY for her to tag along. I can take her on a vacation of her choice for a lot less, which I do. Just my humble opinion.

Doesn't anyone else just leave the wife home and go hunting with their pals anymore? I tried that and it costs me much more on the American Express card for her to go shopping at the local malls than it would've to pay an observer fee for her. Wyn

quote:

Originally posted by wynwood:
Doesn't anyone else just leave the wife home and go hunting with their pals anymore? I tried that and it costs me much more on the American Express card for her to go shopping at the local malls than it would've to pay an observer fee for her. Wyn

Maybe it's just me, but when I go hunting, I want to GO HUNTING! None of that - be sure to check out the shrimp at the Seafood Basket, be sure to bungee jump on the bridge over the Zambezi, go rafting below Vic Falls, stay at least one night at so and so hotel, buy lots of the local carvings at the market, check out the taxidermy at old Joe's place, whatever. To each his own.

My wife has sat with me all night in a leopard blind and was there when I shot my lion. There was no whinning no complaints and no shopping just hunting and enjoying. If you take an observer you must be sure they are able to keep up or they should stay home.

$2,000 a day is not enough for some wives. I had one bad experience in the U.S. on an elk hunt. The hunter didn't advise that the wife was coming until the last minute.

The wife was not happy with the accommodation, and cried (literally) until the outfitter moved the cook and her husband, both in their late 60s out of the cabin into a tent. She dressed like she was going to a Halloween party as a caricature of Dolly Parton (without the tits), turquoise western hat with feathers hanging down the back.

She cried because they didn't dedicate a guide to her so she could drive around the ranch and look for elk while the men were hunting. The husband threatened to damage the reputation of the outfitter unless he made them happy. Everyone was uncomfortable and tried to stay in the field as much as possible.

An observer that is unobtrusive (invisible) is not a problem and $50 a day should cut it. It's a shame the other hunters in camp can't set the daily rate for the observer. Your sweet young thing may be the hide from Hell to everyone else; and that child prodigy a pain-in-the-ass rugrat to everyone around you. Keep your observer under control.

Something else I've found is that even when observers are discussed in advance, communication may not be occurring. I've seen an eight year old son (observer) turn into a 28 year old son, who thought he got to shoot.

Observer fees...yes I understand the outfitter needs to make a living. ON the other hand if someone charges a observer fee they should also offer something for the observer -a trip into town, some local sightseeing etc. Paying 150$ and more for bed and breakfast is not justifiable.

It would be like me charging for the time a spouse (or whatever) sits in the waiting room while I treat a patient. I also have rent to pay, a lady that takes care of booking, people who clean etc.

Its unbelievable that some begrudges safari companies for making a profit.

If they make a 100% profit on the observer fee(they don't), more power to them.If someone decides to pay for it, who gets hurt?

Every single day you pay for services and consumables where the profit margin varies from small to huge without as much as a peep of complaint.

The free market is at work, if you don't like it take your business someplace else.I always thought the free market was a good thing.There are actually people here that wants to standardize prices on services across the board.I didn't know communists liked hunting too.

Whine, whine, whine.

If you don't want to pay, stay home.

I've seen a lot of observers that should have been priced out of the market. They were doted after, interfered in hunting discussions, and generally were a pain in the ass.

And then there are the trophy wives. They are just so much the worse. Everyone is slobbering over the babe. It is embarrassing!

But is works both ways. Sometimes the observer is mistreated to the point that they are ignored. I even asked this old gal to come with us a couple days elephant hunting because she was abandoned in camp nearly the whole time she was there.

Observers need to know before hand what they are getting into.

Hunting dangerous game in a wild area is not a novelty. If your observer doesnt understand the logistics of such a hunt they probably shouldnt be there. That said there are lots of good hunters that wouldnt book without their hunting partners going along. Just like anything else some are a pain in the ass and some make the trip worth while. I feel sorry for those who dont have someone to share the hunt with.

cewe: I won't try to speak for the safari company's you frequent but everyone I've been to had a program setup for a non hunting observer. Whether it was a trip to do local shopping,game rides, options to sit a blind or ride the hunting car,etc. . Normally the owner's wife is so happy to have another woman in camp that your spouse is doted over.
Me, I'm always jealous of them...I'm paying $300-$750/ day for a hunt that is the same basice thing they are getting for $175/day except I get to pull the trigger a few times.

Some years ago my oldest son took his "trophy girlfriend" along on our safari to RSA. The camp's clients other than us did indeed drool over her....but then again so did I , alas she proved a pain in the ass and my son moved along with his life...said if THAT ONE was a pain on a safari she wouldn't work out as a wife of a hunter either.....(smart boy)!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Gentlemen,

First rule to remember is - NEVER expect ANYTHING for nothing.

And expecting to take your wife-girlfriend-boyfriend-toyboy-toygirl with you and not expect to pay for the pleasure is totally against the above rule.

It does NOT work. PERIOD!

I actually think taking a number of friends on a hunt INCREASES its fun value - not just its value for money.

The money one pays for an observer in Africa pails in comparison to what one would have to pay on any holiday, taking the service one gets.

I know for a fact that I can put my wife up in a fine hotel in Cape Town and feed/entertain her for far less than that. The REALITY is that the observer rate is a rip off. There is no negotiating that. If you must make money on the observer to cover a government fee then It too is a rip off but should be paid. Anything above that should depend on what extras the observer wants(sight seeing, shopping, etc.). I would pay that, however, if she eats my food, shares my room, travels with me in the car, there is minimal extra cost therefore any extra charge is stealing. I won't hunt that way as it is dishonest. It may be more fun to have a full camp and others to interact with but unless there is some extenuating circumstance like a wife and 5 kids, there should not be an extra charge. It isn't a free lunch it is a courtesy. Why would you not extend a courtesy to you hunter(lively hood) and allow the bringing of a guest?

God this is a touchy subject!

wynwood: My wife and kids were with me last year and paid the normal fees. They had the time of their lives and will be returning with me next year. We paid a bit extra -over daily fees- when they made longer day trips and every penny was well spent. We got our moneys worth, everybody doesn´t.

I can't believe some of you cheap rat bastards. If you don't like the fee go somewhere else where you can get it for free or don't go. What gives you the right to tell someone how to run their business and how much to charge.