The cost for bringing your wife along seems to vary from safari company to safari company. Some dont charge at all especially after the first trip. I consider it a good marketing to allow an observer to travel for free. I do admit some wives can be a pain in the ass but so can some husbands. I dont see any added cost when you shoot what you eat, share a tent, and a charter. Just my opinion so what do you guys think.

I fully agree! There may be some government fees that are manditory and the safari company may have to pay. Those fees are legitimate and need to be paid. Beyond that it is another way to maximise profits.

I have never understood why it costs extra to take a spouse along. Unless the spouse drinks up all the alcohol in camp, any added cost is negligible. An extra $175 per day seems like gouging. Maybe someone can explain.

WE personally as a (commercial safari company) do have a standard non hunting guest rate which is $175/day ( all up )... WE dont hide the fact and we do believe it is (fair to charge) for non hunting observer guests, although we do consider a reduced charge rate should the guest/s be wife son daughter family member OR on a special hunt package arrangement.

Personally I dont believe it is gouging to charge for observer guests, in fact MOST well know (respected commercial safari companies) operating in Africa charge a guest rate, those that dont charge (make a commercial decision) as do all clients when booking.

Our guest rate is (inclusive of all services at the ranch) including game drives accompany hunter if chosen, and all side travel off the ranch to local area town for shopping or regional sightseeing and miscellaneous as/if required, so we believe it to be good value and totally fair.

Where in the world do we get guests staying free at hotels motels or whatever, if they do then the price is built in somewhere I believe, unless they are making so much money that they dont need to charge for guests !!!!

I invite (those complainants) to consider purchasing a ranch in africa themselves setting up a hunting safari company and running it, then come back to me within a year ( if you are still in business ) and tell me if you will let guests stay free, I will be very interested to await their response

All vehement rebuttals and rude comments welcome

Gunny

I personally have paid from zero to over $300 per day for an observer. To me I think there should be a minimum charge above government fees because I know that quite often the observer gets some special attention because the safari company wants them to be happy so things will go well. A hunter with an unhappy wife is not going to have a good safari. Also in some cases the observer can do quite a bit of shooting if they choose to.

On one safari in Zambia I brought my signifant other plus another female friend. We stayed a total of 34 days, hunted 3 different areas and fished the Zambesi. I don't think you could have convinced any of us that the ladies got ripped off at $50.00 per day.

As Peter remined me quite often the safari company will arrange alternate entertainment for the observer such as shopping, photo ops etc. And where can you get a private room with personal service and food where there is only a charge for the renter of the room?

Regards,

Mark

Mark'
50.00 a day is very fair ! 175.00 is a rip off.There are no trips to town or side trips.I will not pay more than 80.00 per day In fact if they demand more than 80.00 I find some one else for my hunt.

Balla Balla,

You have not explained what the $175 per day covers. Looks like it is pure profit, hence an impression has been created that it is gouging. This is an excellent opportunity to correct that impression.

Let's go through the costs to the safari company if a spouse goes along on a 10 day safari:

additional room: none
additional bed: none
additional vehicle: none
additional fuel: negligible
additional electricity: none or negligible
additional laundry soap: not a lot
additional 30 meals x 1 person
_____________________________________________
TOTAL: $1,750.00 ?????

Now I can understand charging extra if a guest is taken on special trips such as shopping or whatever. Those should be paid for. But that is not what is being asked in this thread.

Well, I did come to Africa, buy a ranch, and start a safari company 11 years ago. I believe I am the only American to have done so. I am not a booking agent but own the company. We are 40 kms west of Musina and I drive by Balla Balla all the time enroute to the airport in Pietersburg/Polokwane so I am familiar with his location and the expense of operating in that area (not that it has anything to do with the question). I charge an observer's rate of $150 per day simply because we are usually fully booked and the observer is taking up a bed that could be filled by a paying client (hunter) and ALL persons on the property and in the care of the company must be covered by the companies liability policy which isn't cheap. However, I have charged as little as $50 per day for repeat clients bringing their wives or sons or early season hunts when we have room. I have also charged nothing for the observer of a very good client. Of course most of the observer's rate is profit as we are running a business not a charity but you can generally negotiate a very fair observer's rate if you talk right to the company and you're hunting something more than duikers and baboons.

Ken Moody

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Balla Balla,

You have not explained what the $175 per day covers. Looks like it is pure profit, hence an impression has been created that it is gouging. This is an excellent opportunity to correct that impression.

Let's go through the costs to the safari company if a spouse goes along on a 10 day safari:

additional room: none
additional bed: none
additional vehicle: none
additional fuel: negligible
additional electricity: none or negligible
additional laundry soap: not a lot
additional 30 meals x 1 person
_____________________________________________
TOTAL: $1,750.00 ?????

Now I can understand charging extra if a guest is taken on special trips such as shopping or whatever. Those should be paid for. But that is not what is being asked in this thread.

I guess to save an arguement if you are saying the charge for a WIFE @ $175 to ONLY stay in camp it is too much, I agree ....

I have explained clearly what our charges cover, it is everything including travel outside the ranch around the region area sightseeing or whatever which I still believe is fair and reasonable

As I point out we have to run a FULL BLOWN hunting ranch, we are not a B&B operation, so we have to be commercially viable or go down the tubes ... At the end of the day if a hunter does not want to pay for a guest we have to take the consequences and lose a hunt, it is willing buyer willing seller and no bad feelings

Peter

When we go either my wife comes along on the hunt or stays in camp. No special trips as we are always in remote dangerous game camps. Its like paying a room rate and paying extra for double occupancy. Thats fine if your talking motel six rates but at 1000. dollars a day I dont think so. Also everbody seems to like her company and the staff always liked it when she stayed in camp. She said they all just went about their business and she got no special treatment aside from not eating out of the coolbox in the cruiser. Im not slighting the costs of the safari business but I will say that I am swayed in the direction of a safari business that lets my wife go along for free. The two thousand dollars I save pays for her airfare and that means I will return sooner.

I took a guest at $125/day and it was cheap as I figured it would cost more to leave her home!!!!!

When booking a safari, the Observer Rate is the easiest negotiating point.

Regards,

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by gunny:
When we go either my wife comes along on the hunt or stays in camp. No special trips as we are always in remote dangerous game camps. Its like paying a room rate and paying extra for double occupancy. Thats fine if your talking motel six rates but at 1000. dollars a day I dont think so. Also everbody seems to like her company and the staff always liked it when she stayed in camp. She said they all just went about their business and she got no special treatment aside from not eating out of the coolbox in the cruiser. Im not slighting the costs of the safari business but I will say that I am swayed in the direction of a safari business that lets my wife go along for free. The two thousand dollars I save pays for her airfare and that means I will return sooner.

gunny & others

You are correct in that essentially every case is different, and that is why it is all discussed prior to booking and covered in a final contract which a hunter will either accept or reject, that is how a commercial business operation works and hunting safaris are in the main a commercial business operation

Also there are (many ways to skin a cat) and many different scenarios to contend with, I will name just a few ...

a) One man band PH operating out the back of a vehicle on a leased area or friends hunting property

b) One man band with a leased licence government hunting concession

c) Comapnay with a goverment leased licence hunting concession

d) Owner operated hunting ranch with big mortgage and heavy operational overheads

e) RICH MAN ranch owner/s or a COMPANY whom (have money to burn) and ONLY want to please and do not care about anything regards covering costs or being viable .... We are all looking for that RICH MZN or COMPANY as they is hard to find in this day and age, if you can find them who will give you a free guest rate (hang onto them tightly) and please lets us all know as I am looking for that RICH MAN as well who will allow me to go on a free safari

So it will alway vary, some will charge some wont, it depends on a *specific situation or comapny* and every situation is different I believe !!

------------------------------------------
Just out of interest I came across this on a *USA Comapny webpage*

Turkey Hunts
March 20 - April 30, 2005

$400.00 per hunter per day fully guided
(2-day hunt minimum; 1 turkey per hunter limit)

For all seasons, we have a $150 per day "non-hunter" guest fee.

We require a 50% non-refundable deposit to guarantee your reservation.

( OH Dear, they must be rip off merchant ???? )

--------------------------------------------

That is why (I only book hunts) and dont try to run a safari operation as in some instances no matter what is done there is always someone whom will not be happy, that is human nature and we have to live with it

Peter

I should also mention I have met some hunters wives that I would charge 2000 dollars a day to be in camp!!You are right it is a place to negociate.

quote:

I took a guest at $125/day and it was cheap as I figured it would cost more to leave her home!!!!!

My favorite post to this thread. So true my friend!!!

Not only is it cheaper than leaving her at home, sometimes there is no choice. My wife now wants to in the future go on a safari so that she can see what Africa is like (apparently they need teachers there and some places pay pretty good). And I would pay the company to keep her occupied while I hunt

Red

I'm gonna have to take the outfitters side on this one. They take the business risks and deserve to make a profit.

There ain't no such thing as a Free Lunch.

Hell, my wife and her gang have paid more than $150 a day to sit in warm mud up to their necks and bathe in stanky mineral pools.

Elmo

Over the years some things are consistent in this observer subject. Some of those problems may or may not apply; but generally , Problems arise from loud, selfish, arrogant, obnoxious, goal oriented people, grizzly bears hunting, free roaming elk hunts , some weak men, and in particular ,women and children observers who really should not be there, old elevators and plain bad luck.

Can't always do anything about your luck but you have a hand in who you chose who goes as an observer on a trip with you by a simple honest analysis of thier known behavior, gut feeling and thier ability to acclimate and do some things themselves and not expect more than what they are there for.

Bottom line is that we all choose who we want to hunt with. We should be able to apply that same analogy to observers but try telling that to your non - hunting wife right? Well friends, you, as the "tour leader" are in that position so pick your potential non hunters carefully because if they are not happy, you are not happy. They see to that. Observers are an extra person expecting the same sevices and more so somtimes. They do have an obligation to pay to be there and usually at a reasonable price. What is interesting is that the observer does not usually bitch about the price, It is the person paying for all of it. Another issue.

So have having said this I think that "SOMETIMES" observers need to be charged HALF of what the hunting client is paying to justify thier presence! I know I'm pushing it here but after over 1000 clients in 25 years of personal Montana outfitting, the VERY few problems I had were due tobored observers who were dis engaged alcohol drinking clients and in particular, observers like "barbie"observers and the like. I think observers need to be fully aware.

Gentlemen,

First rule to remember is - NEVER expect ANYTHING for nothing.

And expecting to take your wife-girlfriend-boyfriend-toyboy-toygirl with you and not expect to pay for the pleasure is totally against the above rule.

It does NOT work. PERIOD!

I actually think taking a number of friends on a hunt INCREASES its fun value - not just its value for money.

The money one pays for an observer in Africa pails in comparison to what one would have to pay on any holiday, taking the service one gets.

I was happy to pay for my wife to go along with me both times I hunted in Africa. She also went along with me on a mule deer hunt in Wyoming last September.

These safari operators aren't in business to provide pleasure for you. They are in it to make money. It is after all, a business. My basic rule of thumb on such things is that you should only pay for those things you want and can afford. If the price is too high, don't buy the service.

Saeed is right, you don't get anything free. I usually get to take my wife on safari at the observer rate, and she hunts as well. I consider that a bargain.

Its about making a living. The cost of running a hunting camp/company is high. In America you all try to make a living at whatever you do. This includes selling a service or item to make a living. Why should it be any different in Africa. There are more cost to the hunt than you know. If you do not agree with the cost of an observer - STAY HOME or amke your deal up front to bring your extra person along for no charge, After a few years of free observers you will probably be looking for a new PH because the one that was giving free observers will not be able to be in business.

A similar argument would be, why pay a high daily rate to hunt when you can go walk in the woods for free?

If someone provides a service (luxury camp, great meals, laundry service, people at your disposal anytime) what is the problem with paying for this? If it was in America, you would pay $500/day for this kind of service.

Some of the cheapest observer rates are in camps that have the nicest facilities. (South Africa and Namibia).

Some people seem to have a problem with someone making a profit.

What do you do for a living?

I still think that $175 per day for an observer spouse is bogus profiteering. If the outfitter wishes to charge a punatively high price for observers in order to discourage clients from bringing them as Mr. Atcheson mentioned, then I can certainly understand that as it is clear that observers can be a pain in the butt. But $175 per day bears absolutely no relation to the actual cost of having an observer spouse there, as evidenced by the fact that on one who posted so far has been able to substantiate any increase in the cost of a safari as a result of an observer spouse being along. I mention a spouse as an observer because then it is clear that no extra rooms are taken, so the company's capacity is not impacted.

By the way, did your wife's OB/GYN charge an extra $175 for you to be there while the baby was delivered?

I have taken my wife with me on 10 trips. Her costs have ranged from nothing to $300/day. I hear all the arguments advanced by the booking agents and outfitters and agree there is an additional cost for a non hunting observer. Is it $300 per day? I think not! People get very defensive when issues such as this are introduced yet nothing is done within the industry to get standardization. An earlier post indicated this is an area of negotiation. It should not be that way. I don't think outfitters would appreciate it if suddenly all their prospective clients started negotiating every part of their quotation yet that is exactly what is being invited with this kind of action. If everyone would settle on a reasonable number such as $75 per day there would be no complaints. The outfitter that posted another hunter could be sleeping in that bed is laughable. I have yet to be in a camp that had so many hunters that strangers were paired up together. If you're hunting that many people on a property, I don't want to hunt with you. I was just quoted $100 per day for my wife as an observer in Botswana on an elephant hunt. This is an expensive hunt in a remote area. What gives with $175 per day on a SA plains game hunt. Please don't insult our intelligence!

Paid $25.00 per day for my son in Zimbabwe. He drank that much in soda pop each day. For the treatment he was given and the time of his life, I would have paid anything they asked.
Next year he has been invited to return for free.

South African firms charge for everything and try to make a profit on top. They mirror the tourist industry that caters to non hunters. The $125.00 per person I spent for four extra on the last SA trip was far cheaper than leaving them at Mala Mala.

Again we recieved a bargain.

Well you have the choice to pay the observer rate or not, its your choice as the client...You may have to book with another Safari Company..

We charge an observer rate in Tanzania, you have to fly most of the food stuffs in, the bottled water, lobster, shrimp, etc., the tents and staff have to be driven in and it takes extra staff for observers, Alcohol is served to all, and that can be expensive in many cases..and I could go on and on...The Safari Company has to make their money, thats the bottom line..

You don't get your wife free in the movie, a resturant, a ball game, and on and on, so I don't see the complaint...

You can negociate with some, but those that negociate may be negociating because they have no clientele, and that may be a reason for cutting you a deal, but nothing comes free...

Some that negociate the observer fee, are laughing at you, they just hide it somewhere else...Anytime a Safari cuts you a deal, they have to make it up someplace else, and you can take that to the bank with you, and if they beller and holler about that statement, remember the guilty dog barks the loudest...

We don't negociate, we have a very competitive pricing and without the observer fee we would have to increase our over all priceing structure...

If a hotel books a room or not, their overhead changes very little. Direct cost for one room per night to the hotel is minimal.

1 bar of soap
wash the sheets

The rest of the costs are fixed. Maid service, electricity, lease, etc. It might cost them $5-$10 in direct cost for you to stay in a room that they charge $100/night for.

You can argue that they are making a large profit based on the additional cost of hosting the one individual. But, you neglect the fixed cost they have spent to get to the point where they can comfortably accommodate you.

Those who argue against the observer rate forget the fixed cost of running a camp anywhere in Africa. Some places it is more. Usually these places charge a higher observer rate.

There is the implication in this thread that 95% of the amount you pay for an observer rate goes into the outfitters pocket. DO not forget that this guy has overhead and the observer is an intrigal part of his business plan.

The potential business generated by observers is a factor in the overall cost of setting up and running a camp. Many outfitters go to extra lengths to make a camp more comfortable so you can be comfortable inviting your wife or girlfriend along.

Do not forget that these guys are in the business to make money. They do not make a lot. Don't bust their balls for trying to give you an experience that far exceeds anything you get in the US for 2, 3, 4 or more times the cost of what they charge.

So I guess you guys would not mind paying $175 to be an observer when your wife delivers a baby, right?

Folks

I just don't understand the mind set about observers being free. Sadie has been on every hunt I have done for the last 15 years. She gets exactly the same experience that I do with the exception that she does not actually pull the trigger but in several cases she could have. In most cases the whole crew has bent over backwards to make her happy. Why should that be free or nearly so?

I look at it like you are paying for what the observer has the opportunity to experience not how much food they eat or how much detergent they use. If you look at it like that it is true bargain.

I only thought I was over charged one time for what we got and that was the whole safari. We got our game but all the rest just did not measure up and everybody had his hand out. Otherwise I think I've gotten what I paid for.

Safari hunting is expensive! A still think it is the best value for my recreational buck regardless of what it costs.

Regards,

Mark

So what you are saying is that you don't see any difference between the two? I think you are looking for something to gripe about. If it is too expensive for you, don't take your wife.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
So I guess you guys would not mind paying $175 to be an observer when your wife delivers a baby, right?

I see this argument is getting sillier by the minute.

How about getting on a plane and not having to pay, as that plane is already scheduled to fly anyway?

How about the bus?

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
So I guess you guys would not mind paying $175 to be an observer when your wife delivers a baby, right?

I'm sorry, but I don't see any correlation between a a child birth and a hunting trip.

When I go to a baseball game I always invite my girlfriend; sometines she goes, sometimes she doesn't. When she does go, I wouldn't dream of telling the people at Minutemaid Park that she should get in for free because she is not really a baseball fan and will not watch most of the game.

Considering the extreme examples made above, this perhaps is really a unique topic that does not lend itself to easy comparison.

I appreciate the companies that offer "husband/wife", "parent/child" and "family" packages or rates - as this avoids this touchy issue.

Clearly as part of their business model, the African outfitters are dependent upon the extra margin from observers. Ditto with the booking agents who derive commission from these add-on fees, which in fine. In a sense, these observers are subsidizing the single hunters day rates. But some rates I have been seeing in various countries appear to me personally to be excessive for all but the most wealthy clients - who can skew the operators perspectives. Not everybody can [will] bear this cost.

Perhaps there should be two clearly defined rates, one for the observer who will bunk, eat and travel with the hunter ("limited service"), and another if entertainment will need to be provided ("full service"). Let the hunter decide, and make him/her stick to it. Especially for the destinations that lend themselves to this.

EDIT: I modified my original post so as to not focus on any one particular country, as this was not my intention.

The fact that this is a non-issue for the overwhelming majority of hunters pretty much says it all.

In the realm of "you get what you pay for" the observer's daily rate has to be the best bargain known to mankind.

This is a bit silly.

Bill C, you are right about two seperate levels of service and actually I know several outfitters in AK. that do this. Certain amount to stay at lodge. Higher price to go into field.
Observer fees are an extra valid charge because there is an extra person that requires the same service as the hunter. Frankly, sometimes much more. They get to do everything the paying client is doing except shoot game and that in it's self is not always true either because everybody knows that observers quite frequently get to shoot lots and just pay trophy fees. That is one hell of a deal! I think observers get evey penny the pay for in places like Africa, Australia, NZ, Swank European type places and they usually very much enjoy it.

However, here in the States and Canada and other places, somehunts are remote and spartan and the weather does not always cooperate nor does the game. In less desirable elements, the hunter and observer need to know what the set up is and be very honest with themselves. Some remote hunts are not suitable for observers or even some hunters. As Justice Cordozzo said, "May the timorous stay home"!

Choose your hunting partners and observers wisely. That, I think is the more important thing here rather than what the charge is for observers. JMO

LJS, you obviously misunderstood my post. Either I did not articulate it clearly or you simply have a comprehension problem. No one would ever think of pairing strangers together in the same chalet. My point was, and is, that if a client books himself, wife, and son, they will take an entire chalet which could have been reserved by three hunting clients in the same party. Why should the wife and son take profit away from the company? $150 per day is entirely fair at it's half the hunting rate, usually, which is what the company should actually net on a hunter since the PH will make $100 per day and you'll have $50 per day in fuel and misc. expense. So, $150 per day is the profit margin whether it's hunter or observer. It's simply about the maximum utilization of your time and resources. Of course you can negotiate a better observer's rate during low season, to fill a hunt cancellation, etc. but you won't do it with an agent since they are not at liberty to negotiate prices between clients and the companies the agents represent. You have to negotiate with the actual owner of the company but it can be easily done.

Ken Moody

I fail to see why any agent, outfitter, PH or anyone else should have to justify their costs to anyone except the taxman and I further think it's a bloody cheek for anyone to ask them to.

How many people here would be prepared to divulge their personal or business finances on a public forum?

No-one in the safari industry is getting rich and I don't know a single person in the industry who couldn't make more money elsewhere.

The bottom line is that if you want cheap - go to a cheap operation. If you want good - go to a good operation. As with the rest of life there's no such thing as a free lunch.

To put it more bluntly - if you can't afford it go elsewhere - but all the while you buy cheap you ain't gonna get a top class product....

Hell I go hunting to get away from my wife.Its the same if I go to SCI.She does not hunt so why take her.If I want to take the wife on vaction its somewhere we both would enjoy together.When SCI was still in Las Vegas I thought about taking her.Then I figured we can go to Vegas anytime we want together and not wreck my fun.

Hell next someone will want to pay for the observer and not pay their daily rate!

A body in the field is a body in the field and those bodies cost money to maintain / sustain - shooter, non-shooters alike.

If the outfitter thinks they can afford to allow an observer come over for free, then so be it. But no matter what anybody thinks on this forum - The fact is, there is going to be an expense for somebody to bear, period.

I frankly think it is a bit naive to think that it doesn't cost an outfitter anything to field and sustain an extra body. Suppose the "observer" gets sick on the hunt and requires medical evacuation - THERE GOES THE HUNTING TRIP FOR EVERBODY! All lost on a person that wasn't even paying to be there - think about that!

As far as I'm concerned "observers" should go observe "Disney Land" or something like that and leave the hunting to the hunters! (oh boy I've done it now, hee, hee)


We do allow observers to come along, but they have to cover their room and board and...

...There is a strict set of "rules of engagement"; when we go in after an animal on a stalk - no observers allowed! One out of place sneeze / sniffel and there goes the prize.

Around the camp - observers welcomed!

Jeff