I was just wondering this question.I have 6 416 rem mags but I sold the only two 458s I ever had.One was a Savage express rifle that was 7 pounds and the other a push feed model 70 .I couldnt find brass was one reason I sold them .I also like the 416 rem mag more than the 458 for its dual purpose role and flatter shooting.I know the 458 win mag is a knock out in a close fight.I dont know if its any better than the 416 rem mag or equal .I steer towards equal with those two.I still want a old Ruger model 77 in 458 and a Ruger 416 when they come out.I know there are alot of 458s in closets not getting shot but most people wont part with them.Both the savage and the winchester model 70 were too light for my liking if I had kept them.It would have been fine shooting the 400 gr swift bullets of of them but I dont think the 510 gr bullets would have been fun.The lack of factory brass made me decide to get rid of my last 458 win mag not its awesome stopping power.

We're taking 2 .458 Win Mags, a M70 and a Browning, and one .375 to try to slay 6 buff in July.

My M70 .458 with full house 500s will stay in 3" at 50 yards off sandbags with a receiver sight, when I'm in the mood for pain, and stays on a paper plate offhand with no problem. Actually, with the mercury recoil reducer it's not as bad as shooting a 3.5" turkey gun.

I'm not worried about it at all.

Ihave several big bores and the mauser 458 winch,and the cz375hyh are the most used on water buffalos by me and clients because the ammo isnt so expensive and easily to find in small cities.We dont use the cz416 Rigby because ammo is pretty expensive here.Juan

drg

The 458 is my choice if I know that DG is the main focus of the safari. It does an exemplary job with lower recoil than the Lott or larger calibers and is even better today than ever before when using the 450 gr monometal bullets that can be driven at 2300 fps.

Mark

Took an elephant and buffalo with mine. Met two PHs using 458 win mags also on my trip.
Dean

I have a Model 70 458 winMag that I turned into a Lott. Man! It is a big step up in recoil. I kinda wish I'd left it as it was. I've never liked a recoil headache and the Lott does that to me.

I just bought an old model Ruger 77 (tang safety) in .458 WinMag in new condition. It came out of a collection. the only thing I've done is replace the brass bead front sight with a white one (had Hell seeing the brass). The rifle really handles well. I haven't shot it yet. I just ordered some custom ammo from Conley Cartridges - 400 gr. A Frames (2390 fps muzzle).

As I said, it is all factory including the red, non-slip butt pad. After shooting it I may want to put a limbsaver on it. That's what I did on my RSM .458 Lott. But since this is just a toy (I'll continue to use the Lott for DG), I may leave it as is and have fun getting the crap knocked out of me. At best, it's my new pig gun. It's a pretty gun that shoulders quickly. The white dots line up instantly. I think I'll be able to snap shoot really well with this rifle.

.....If I didn,t want to turn my CZ 550 Saf.Mag 458 Lott into a 460 Whby.....I would leave it as is and load a 480 - 500 gr bullet @ 2150 fps and get the best of both worlds... adequet ballistics with with less pressure......If I stumble upon a CZ 550 458 win mag I will probably have it reamed to 450 Watts long Magnum....I like shooting my Interarms 458 win , as such and don,t want to bump it up .....I am looking foward to my 458 / 338 RUM short neck .....I was showing a friend , who is a bear guide ,,the round this morning, and he was impressed.....For a meat gun I think the 416 Rem Mag is the best there is.....And it has worked well at dumping alot of big animals ..........But when the range gets reduced to a few yards ,, I prefer my light ,short, muzzel broke ,458 Ruger 77 mk 2 ......It does seem there is not much use of the 458 Win Mag. in Africa with the 400 gr bullets.......I could understand that,super premium bullets .. But with the X bullet , the Trophy Bonded , the GS Custom HV . and the Kodiak Bonded Core . and Woodliegh weld core..I don,t understand why.....If a 450/400 is a good Cape buffalo caliber then the 458 win mag 400 gr bullet @ 2350 or better, is ALOT better....And would be superior to the vaunted 416 Rigby for Lion....And it,s easier in the recoil department than the 500 gr loads.. Easier on stocks also...The little stubby is a pretty great round........

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:
.....If I didn,t want to turn my CZ 550 Saf.Mag 458 Lott into a 460 Whby.....I would leave it as is and load a 480 - 500 gr bullet @ 2150 fps and get the best of both worlds... adequet ballistics with with less pressure........

Well a 460 Weath. with 500gr bullet at 2150fps has less pressure than a 458 Lott...

I have been very pleased with my Remington 700 custom in .458 Win.Mag. I took Lion, Leopard, 3 Buffalo,and giraffe with A-square Triad bullets (Mono solid, DTSP, lion load)in 465 grain that all shot to same POA. Giraffe was brain shot at 100 yds.
I also took Elephant and Buffalo with the 500gr.
Hornady Magnum solid round.
My rifle loaded with scope weighs 10 lbs. and does not cause a recoil problem. The .458 has not let me down.
Robert

I have read so many old (and not so old) articles about the real velocity of the .458 Magnum being about 1900 fps, and not 2150 fps, that it seems like you simply "must" have a .458 Lott if you want to hunt dangerous game. But I don't see alot of articles which state the velocities of present day factory ammo in the WinMag. Do any of our esteemed members chronograph factory loads in their rifles? It would be nice to see what is really being produced by the majors like Federal, Norma or others. If the double gun crowd is getting good results with a 500 grain bullet .458 caliber bullet at 2150 fps, then the only real reason for a Lott is to allow a reloader to obtain that speed, since it seems to be difficult to obtain in the 458 Mag.

I think Mike Jines' Chrono was showing over 2,200 fps. with Hornady Heavy Magnums 500 gr.

Mike?

I would not trade my 458 win. The Lott kicks harder (more than I wish to endure), the 416 factory ammo is more expensive and more difficult to find in factory loads. I only shoot factory ammo when hunting--which is the advice of most of the experts here. The 450gr gives velocity in the 2300fps range. The 458win is an African "do everything" under 200yds rifle, at least for me.

I had to choose between the lott and 458WinMag just recently.I was almost sure to go with the Win and even bought 4 packs of cases for it,but after reading all the threads here on AR and on the internet I hesitated.I wanted a 458 because of its ability to fire the 500 grain bullet and the sleek profile of the case enabling smooth feeding.I did not want a compressed load or to be limited to a single powder that would fill the case properly and gave good velocity but no accuracy.I wanted my choice of powders to be greater.Finally,I left the decision for the action maker assuming he knows his actions and how the cartridges perform in his actions.He suggested I go with the Lott and I will later ask him why he.

I have used the .458 extensively on all sizes of African game. It is with out a doubt one of my favourites. I am looking for another one as we speak.

Aleko

In my Whitworth, the Hornady factory ammo (500 grain round nose, .458 Win Mag) chrono'ed an average of 2112 fps over twelve shots. With a high of 2186 and a low of 2050. This was a cool day, so warmer weather would have pushed the pressures/velocities up a bit.

Shootaway, I have both. In my opinion, you did the right thing. More flexibility with the Lott.

I have killed a bunch of elephants and some cape buffalo with the 458wm and never found it wanting in any way.

My rifle is a double and I load for regulation, not all out performance. There are a lot of myths out there and one is that the 458 requires heavy compressed loads and is difficult to load for. Nothing could be further from the truth. Neither of my two hunting loads is compressed and each is a lower end load and yet performance is great. My 500 grain Woodleigh solid loads run at 2135fps and are near starting load levels with AA 2230. My 450 Grain North Fork flat nose solid loads run 2190fps with H 4895 and have been pressure tested and are well under max - though North Fork has recently changed their bullet so I will need to rework my load.

Remember I'm only loading to get the barrels shooting together and not for all out performance. Even so these loads work really well, especially the 450gr North Fork flat nose solid bullets which give penetration in buff and elephants in the five foot range.

If you think a 416 is in the same league as a 458, or a 450 NE or a 470, try watching Buzz Charlton's DVD "Hunting the African Elephant" and count how many times Buzz, who has used a 416 for a long time but has switched to a 450NE, "If the hunter had been shooting a 500 grain bullet, that elephant would have dropped..."

JPK

I have a Lott.

If I had a Win. Mag., I would use it with pretty much confidence and not worry about it very much. But I would sooner trade it in or bore it out for a Lott and use the Lott.

The Lott has put the Win. Mag. strictly in the past tense. Exactly like the .357 Magnum vs. the .38 Special.

quote:

Originally posted by Hunter Formerly Known As Texas Hunter:
Shootaway, I have both. In my opinion, you did the right thing. More flexibility with the Lott.

I think the Ruger model 77 in the 458 is an awesome dangerous game rifle.I love the tang safety.Its like shooting a fine double barrel.I have about 12 old Ruger model 77s that I use.I just didnt like the lightness of the Savave which did have a muzzle break but the stock was very thin.I think it would have been fine with a thicker stock.The winchester would have been fine to tote but was light for a 458.I do have three light 416s .Two are 7.5 pounds and around 9.5 pounds scoped and loaded.I hope that they do make more 458 brass .I dont see anything wrong with this fine caliber.I think it got lost in the shuffle of new is better which is not always the case.I like a shorter bolt throw for faster shooting.There have to be alot of 458s gathering dust.I know they dont last long in the gun racks in South East Alaska in gun shops .They get snapped up very quickly.Its is an awesome up close fight stopper thats in a compact package.I have heard that alot of 458s are very accurate also.If the 416 had not become so popular I think the 458 win mag would be #1 for dangerous game.If I ever hunt elephant I will get a good 458 win mag in a Ruger model 77 which is a very good choice.I have had alot of fun with my 416 rem mags too which aint too shabby either.

Use my Heym 458 all the time here in the U.K for wild boar,and have used it in Zim for Buffalo,it does what it says on the box, and does it very well.
Can buy ammunition anywhere and it`s not as expensive and difficult to get hold of as the Lott or any other bigger calibre.
It`s a dream to shoot too,and I wouldn`t worry about using it on anything anywhere.

Well a 460 Weath. with 500gr bullet at 2150fps has less pressure than a 458 Lott... [/QUOTE]..............................Yes I suppose so........I have always been concerned about too light a load with rifle powders.......It comes from the old Hornady manuels,, in the blurb about the 460 Wetherby it would say something like { it is important to not reduce charges below those listed as hangfires may occure... "HANGFIRES OF THIS MAGNITUDE WOULD BE QUITE UNPLEASANT '.... .However reading thru the 460 data in the Lee manuel.they show some pressures,,, Since a load of 117 gr of IMR 7828 is a starting load for the 500 gr bullet.. And it yeilds around 2350 fps..In fact that is THE load for imr 7828 and gives a pressure of around 42000 cup .........It is a compressed load so perhaps reduceing it a little wouldn,t hurt...Possibly AA3100 , or H 4831 would work well reduced.............With moly coated bullets the throat and bore should last a long , long time

I also have a .458WM in a ruger 77 tang safety model. My other heavy is a Winchester 70 in 470 Capstick. I would most probably use the Ruger as I almost exclusively use a tang safety ruger for hunting (30-06, 300WM and .338WM). It is near instinct after 30+ years to use this gun setup.

I have a Win model 70 (1955) in 458 win mag. that was made by Al Biesen and which I have used on three buff and maybe 10 to 12 plains game animals.

Later I sent it to Roger Biesen to bore it out to a Lott. He did a great job and took out some of the safari scratches at the same time. Now I am afraid to get it scratched again. The wood is nice.

While hunting buff I also used it for plains game. One unfortunate experiment was trying 350 grain Barnes X in it. I shot a Kongoni at about 60 yds. and penetration was terrible. I shot a buff on the point of the shoulder with the 350 grain and that was a bad idea.

That bullet was short for the diameter. I was warned not to do it but did anyway - another should have listened situation.

The 2 buff shot with the 500 grain bullets went down quickly.

My amateur opinion is that this is a very good but not great all around caliber but in the Lott version is very effective on dangerous game.

.........This may be a stupid question ,, and possibly a waste of time ... But could a m77mk 2 bolt be put in a tange sartey model 77 and is there the stuff on a tange saftey m77 to attach the ejector...............I myself prefer the side saftey but there are lots of people who like the tang saftey...perhaps I will post this on the big bore side as it is moveing away from African hunting...

quote:

Originally posted by SGraves155:
I only shoot factory ammo when hunting--which is the advice of most of the experts here.

Am I the only one who questions this statement? I have been reading AR for a long time and can't recall this belief being held by many. I can't recall anyone advising against using handloads for hunting.

Jason

Sounds suspicious to me too. Most serious hunters of my acquaintance handload most or all of their ammo.

Jason,

I'm glad you brought this up!

I had the same question. I can't recall anyone saying such here on AR. And it has appeared to me that everyone uses hand loads - only using factory loads to get the brass [ie .375Ruger].

I've been planning, testing, load after load for the trip this summer to Zim, am I wrong about this?

Maybe we need a poll?

Les

quote:

Originally posted by LHowell:

Maybe we need a poll?

Les

Sounds good!

Jason

I think you will find that a lot of PH's would rather see you shoot factory ammo as they may have had some bad experiences with poorly prepared handloads. It is truly scary to talk to some folks that consider themselves handloaders.

As for AR "Experts" recommending factory ammo my impression has been that most prefer handloads although the current factory ammo is very good. Personally I've used both. If factory ammo shoots well in my rifles with the bullets I want to shoot I have no problem using it and have a couple of times on elephant, buffalo and hippo plus plains game.

Mark

My comment on using factory loads for hunting was meant only for the 458 win (the topic of this thread)-- and I am reasonably sure its been recommended by numerous others, but will do a search, something about difficulty of compressing the loads to achieve factory velocities--but I have not done any reloading in years. The only ammo (various calibers) I've ever had problems with were loaded by some dumb beginner (me).
http://www.scidetroit.com/reloadingforafrica.htm

(see the comment about getting some members really excited)

SGraves,

Nothing could be further from the truth!!!

To match factory balistics is a breeze and does NOT require compressed loads. Even surpassing factory ballistics by a wide margin is a breeze and doesn't require compressed powder loads.

In fact it is easy to load the 458, using readily available reloading manual data, to far exceed factory ballistics and provide a level of performance a league beyond what most all factory ammo can do.

JPK

Thanks JPK. You do a ton of shooting and don't you have a 458 double? For you, reloading a 458 win is undoubtedly no problem, and perhaps almost a necessity for regulation. For most of the rest of us, I just agree with Terry Blauwkamp's opinion written for SCI on taking 458 win reloads to Africa--and he was a member of the Barnes Bullet Advisory Committee, so he wasn't trying to sell factory ammo. Mark Young makes some good points, too.

Les and Jason--I agree a poll would be interesting. It should be limited to people who have taken a 458win to Africa, and see whether most took factory or reloaded ammo.

quote:

Originally posted by SGraves155:
My comment on using factory loads for hunting was meant only for the 458 win (the topic of this thread)--

Sorry, I took your comment out of context. I incorrectly assumed you spoke of all rounds.

Jason

Today I fired my .458 for the first time, and also chronographed it for the first time.

With a 23" barrel, it appears to be no problem to get 2250 fps with 450 grain Barnes solids at reasonable pressures with less than "maximum loads" of H4895, which does not change pressure as temperature rises. This hits with just over 5000 foot pounds. I intend to try 450 grain North Fork flat point solids, which are said to penetrate up to 40% more than ordinary 500 grain round-nose solids at 2150.

So who needs a Lott?

a 2300fps,expanding 500 grain load is what were after for seriuos business

Indy
I and JPK can highly recommend North Fork 450 FN solids, and I can recommend his Cup points as well, IF they feed in your gun.

I have used them in my 450 No2 double with excellent results on elephant and giraffe.

From what I've read, the .458WM has always been good enough, except in the old days of dud factory ammo. Mr. Lott's problem not necessarly having been just a lack of power. IE there are plenty of more powerful cartridges than the Lott if you want/can handle them.

quote:

Originally posted by SGraves155:
Thanks JPK. You do a ton of shooting and don't you have a 458 double? For you, reloading a 458 win is undoubtedly no problem, and perhaps almost a necessity for regulation. For most of the rest of us, I just agree with Terry Blauwkamp's opinion written for SCI on taking 458 win reloads to Africa--and he was a member of the Barnes Bullet Advisory Committee, so he wasn't trying to sell factory ammo. Mark Young makes some good points, too.

SGraves155,

I reload for my double rifle to get the accuracy and performance it is capable of. My rifle shoots fair with Federal ammo and I would use it if required, for example, if my ammo went missing on the trip over.

The only cartridge that I handload regularly is the 458, I have found perfectly suitable factory ammo for all other uses except for 375H&H solids. I couldn't find a factory solid that shot to the same POI with the Federal 300gr Trophy Bonded softs. Handloaded Woodleigh 300gr solids soved the problem.

I have had my primary 458 handload pressure tested and it is a modest load. My other loads are modest to midlin' loads as well and they all produce better performance than factory loads, without compressed charges or any other loading difficulty.

Terry's article notes the Speer Nitrox load but the tungsten cored 500gr Speer African Grand Slam is no longer available and hasn't been for awhile. I suspect that his article is out of date.

Most importantly, 458 factory loads do no include the best available bullets for the 458, which would include GS Custom and North Fork flat point solids. Woodleighs work well, and the new/old steel jacketted Hornadays enjoy a good reputation. Winchester solids also enjoyed a good reputation, but last I checked, were not available in factory ammo, or at all.

The Hornaday options will be a valid choice when Hornaday has completed switching back to steel jacketted solids and solved the problems with the brass jacketted solids. The switch is apparently underway.

Horror stories about the Trophy Bonded solids, loaded by Federal, bending and riveting abound. I have witnessed the flat point jam, in the midst of an elephant hunt, in a PH's rifle as well - really a rifle problem and not an ammo problem but the same rifle gave no problems with handloaded Woodleigh rondnoses.

In any event loading the 458 to exceed factory ammo does not require compresed loads with either H 4895, 450gr bullets, or AA 2230, 500gr bullets, and each gives better than factory performance well under max pressures. Todays powders do more than make the 458 what it was origanally intended to be. For example, the Hornaday manual provides an AA 2230 load that produces a nominal 2200fps with 500 grainers out of a 24" barrel. I am not an advocate of loading to the max, but that sure gives an idea of the potential. My 500gr load, using Woodleighs produces 2135fps, well above factory performance, but a middlin' load, and it even shoots to regulation in my rifle.

Find a mentor or hire a local gunsmith to walk you through loading for the 458, you won't be disapointed and you will quickly come to realize that much of what is written about it is myth, myth that is slow to die.

If my rifle were a bolt, I'd possibly step my loads up a bit, since there would be no regulation issues, H 4895 and AA 2230 have shown no temperature sensitivity in my experience, even in 115* in Zim. H 4895 is known for being temp insensative. FWIW, an old 458 favorite you may read about often, IMR 3031, is a powder to stay away from - more myth that is slow to die.

JPK