Gents:

First, let me say there is no litigation pending or intended in this matter. The client (me) has filed this under "Shit Happens" and will most certainly look into trip insurance this year. The question relates primarily to customer service/good will on the part of the outfitter and PH.

Here are the facts.

Client books 10 day buffalo & PG hunt through independent PH with whom he has hunted buff before.

Daily rates and trophy fees are clearly stated and agreed upon.

Hunt is on a major government concession operated by one of Zim's better known outfits.

Payment is to be made to the outfitter at the end of the hunt.

Deal is settled with a handshake on the floor of SCI Reno. There is no paperwork.

PH meets client at airport and drives to camp.

On first day of hunt client shoots kudu.

On second day of hunt client shoots buffalo.

On third day client hunts PG. Does not shoot.

That evening, PH informs client of family emergency about which he (PH) had just received message. PH says he will monitor emergency but may have to leave camp.

Fourth day client hunts PG. Misses opportunity at bushbuck; knocks over a couple of baboons. That evening, PH informs client he must leave in the AM to attend to emergency.

(The emergency, BTW, is legitimate. It's entirely understandable that the PH must leave to attend to his family.)

Client is advised of the following:

Hunt is over. There is no other PH available with whom client may continue to hunt.

Client is welcome to stay in camp, but will not be allowed use of boats for fishing because of lack of PH and other camp staff.

If client stays, he'll have to fly out of camp at end of hunt on charter, at client's expense.

Or, client may leave camp in the morning with PH and be driven back to Harare.

Since client has shot a very good kudu and above average buffalo, and has been to Zim several times before, he opts to leave camp in the AM.

Client is presented with invoice for full 10 day hunt. Client inquires about refund for unused daily rates and is told he owes full amount.

Client pays full amount.

PH drives client to Harare.

And as many of you know, any change in itinerary in Afica comes with its own problems:

Client ends up at Miekel's Hotel in Harare where he learns that the rack rate is US$150 per night, unless of course you have a British or USA passport, wherein the rack rate becomes US$250 per night.

Client contacts outfitter's office in Harare for help in travel arrangements. Outfitter's office staff is no help, and fails to return phone calls.

Additonal expenses are subsequently incurred by client in changing outbound flights, other hotels, etc.

Objectives of the hunt are met with two very fine trophies, but time in bush is cut by more than 50%, and overall cost of trip is increased by almost $2000.

Any thoughts on whether the outfitter and or PH should have made some adjustments to the bill?

He shouldn't have charged you for the days you didn't hunt.

He should have helped with travel arrangments.

I would tell the PH to take the cost of the missed days and shove them up his ass. I would also deduct my additional expenses due to HIS issues.

This guys has some nerve asking for full payment from you. Please let us know who it is so no one else has an issue with him.

Letting this stuff slide just screws the next guy IMO.

If you haven't done so already, write him a lettter laying out your situation and give him a chance to make it right. If he blows you off, it's fair game to go public.

woodhits is right , write him a letter and see what he will work with , even if its a credit or reduced rate on your next trip ..

it appears you have been more than fair in a situation where many people would have acted differently ....

i always recommend "travelguard" as a travel insurance company ...helps with this kind of unforseen eventuality.

quote:

Originally posted by GeoffM24:
I would tell the PH to take the cost of the missed days and shove them up his ass. I would also deduct my additional expenses due to HIS issues.

This guys has some nerve asking for full payment from you. Please let us know who it is so no one else has an issue with him.

Letting this stuff slide just screws the next guy IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by Woodhits:
If you haven't done so already, write him a lettter laying out your situation and give him a chance to make it right. If he blows you off, it's fair game to go public.

I agree with both of these 100%. That is utter bullshit!

Similar experience with a Tuna charter.

inclement weather kept us inshore, even though we booked "offshore".

We attempted to negotiate with the Captain:

"Since we are not going offshore, as you determined before the boat left the dock, will you give us the "inshore rate"?

"No - same rates apply... we might hit some tuna inshore... we'll be burning the same amount of fuel..."

"But the "inshore-charter" rate you quote (brochure) is $1550 for 8 hours... we'll be fishing inshore."

"I never quoted you an inshore rate, and you guys booked me for "offshore". That's what I have to charge you."

Argument gets a bit more 'heated'. Captain threatens to turn the boat around with no refund.

Too many people drove too many miles to get jerked around, and my co-horts decided to "give-in" to Captain's demand.

Bottom line - no tuna, rough water, two bluefish, a chicken dolphin, a small shark all for the incredible price of $2500 split 5 ways.

I'll call it tuition.

At the least - your PH/Outfitter should have split the difference with you or compensated your economic pain - or you can call it tuition.

had this happen & the PH made arrangements and had another ph fill in for him. Without that - yes you should be getting a refund, or at the very least a much reduced trip back

Why am I thinking "Here we go again"?

BASED SOLELY ON THE INFORMATION PROVIDED, theoretically, an adjustment should have been made, at least on the daily rate. The Client booked a 10 day hunt and was given a shorter hunt. He should only have been billed for the days that he actually was permitted to hunt. As to who should make the adjustment, that depends on the arraingement between the concession holder and the PH. If the agreement was with the outfitter and they were unable to find a replacement PH then the onus should be on them. If the PH, in effect, sublet the concession from the outfitter then the onus should be on the PH. I suspect that the latter was the circumstance.
If you booked for 10 days, and didn't get 10 days, than you shouldn't have been billed for 10 days.
As for the add'l expenses incurred. Theoretically you have a point, but they probably fall into the category of "s**t happens".

I used the term "theoretically" because in the absence of a rebuttal and support for the claims made we can only talk philosophy, not facts.

Do you want to name the people involved?

TerryR

Unfortunately that is the risk that is taken when booking with a subcontractor. You are the subs client and the safari company takes no responsiblity for you.

Of course the sub should make some arrangement to compensate you for lost days and extra expenses but since you had no contract it may be tough to force the issue. If the sub is not inclined to help you may have to chock it up to an expensive lesson learned.

Mark

Without names this is purely a hpothetical exercise on "what if" and the previous posters accurately proffered recommendations.

One of the may attributes of this site is it serves us in the office of a "lessons learned" repository. There are a lot of good PHs & Outfitters that post here and we owe it to them not to be painted with the same brush. Accordingly, without names this is just another excercise in mental gymnastics. I'm sorry that you were subjected to this by that PH and he should be exposed. jorge

I do not know the answer, but usually "cool heads prevail" and something should be able to be worked out.

In the big picture, that is the very reason I will try to always work through a reputable agent in order to avoid the unpleasantries that this situation has caused. I hook the agent with the responsibility to work it out and I pay him, not the PH.

So much for the PH client friendships that are talked about on here frequently. As stated before, these hunts are pure business relationships and should be entered into with the same cautions as any other.

This PH/Outfitter owes you a refund and should be taken to task if he don't give it to you.

The real question is, why did you pay the full 10 day amount at the end of 4 days hunting? Did you feel that something unpleasant would happen if you didn't pay?

TWL,

I'm surprised that you actually paid for the full 10 days, when leaving on day 4. Why would you do that? Clearly that was your opportunity to set things right. I can understand paying for the 4 days, plus the trophy fees. You should have had some assistance with travel arrangements as well.
Personally, while pretty unhappy with the hunt being cut short, I could chalk it up to "stuff happens" if I only paid for the part I recieved. Being billed the full amount, based on the information provided, is unethical.
Bill

Seems to me that this an issue of integrity. The PH and the Safari operator either have it or they don't. If the client gets sick and can't complete the safari then the client should have to pay. The reverse is also true. In this case it was the Safari Co./PH problem and not the clients. I think fair is only fair.

465H&H

I think any reputable PH would always have a backup or two that he could call in such asituation. If this one did not, then shame on him. But he shoudl NOT charge the full 10 days. The travel or hotel extras, well I might say that could go either way. If the PH had backups, and they could not step in, he still should NOT have charged full days. Since this was sealed on a handshake and no written document, then probably never a correct answer. Should be something spelled out in a written contract

Book another, more extensive hunt with him for next year. Pay in full at the end fo the safari...with a check that you have previously called and cancelled payment on. Just be sure and leave him with a good tip.

Brian

In my opionion, Proportional Remuniration is expected and justified..

Did you get what you told the PH you wanted before you started hunting?

If you book a 10 day trip and harvest all the animals you want in 4, IMHO you simply are not due a refund. Extenuating circumstances are exempt from consideration. If you got what you came for and chose to leave early he has fulfilled his obligation.

However, I believe in your situation that the opportunity to hunt was gone. You still intended to hunt. You were unable to do so because of the situation. At that point I think it is fair to have to pay only the non-hunting guest fee for the remaining days. This is regardless of the fact you left early.

You have an oral contract for personal services. You agreed to the original terms, and to the amended terms when you paid up and left camp. However, the added expenses you incurred were foreseeable and in the great scheme of things, the ph paying for your extra expenses is not out of line and a small price to pay to retain your business good will and his reputation. I'd write a letter to him outlining the expenses you incurred, the unhelpfulness of his office, and your expectations. In some subtle fashion, like "my friends at AR suggested that I contact you about this," I'd let him know that you could make his refusal public.

Kudude

'Client' should have refused to pay for days not hunted. 'Client' should have immediately contacted the ZATSO and reported the behavior of PH and safari company, and asked for assistance with travel arrangements.

At worst, 'client' might not have gotten his trophies, but 'client' would have gotten satisfaction.

George

If you hunted or, by mutual agreement photo-safaried the final days you should pay the rate.

On the other hand, if there was no PH and you either were stuck twiddling your thumbs in camp or elected to leave early as an alternative to twiddling your thumbs in camp, you should only pay for the days on which the contracted services were provided.

If you incurred extra costs to leave early the PH should cover your expenses.

If you sat in camp and twiddled your thumbs for x days of an anticipated y day hunt, the PH should reimburse you an x/y pro-rated share of your travel cost for cutting your trip short.

I agree with the earlier comments about this being a business; your PH breached the contract and owes you.

Lord knows as an industry they're sure quick to stick it up the hunter's ass if you have to cancel.

As we should have all learned from Jim Zumbo, the internet is a powerful tool for exposing and calling to task people of questionable standards and ethics.

Post his name, and let him explain what he did to earn the money.

TWL, This is an ongoing problem with hunters and leisure time versus PH's and business. While you are doing pleasure, he is doing business. I hope you didn't tip him! You did not receive what you contracted for, meaning the daily rates fees. Yes the objectives of your trip were met. However you received no support from his office while you an overseas guest and their responsibility where stranded in a not very friendly urban area. I've stayed at the Meikles, loved the tapestry hanging there, but didn't care for the walk about my wife and I took. Net result is as you put it, chalked up to the stuff happens category... Sorry for your loss

If possible cancel funds immediately. Take appropriate action as noted above.

Sorry, but this really gets my blood up. Two years ago we had to cancel 2 people out of a 3-person trip because of last minute emergencies, including my 83-year old mother breaking her hip while I was packing to leave the next morning.

Bottom line, we paid Jim Roche at Magnum Guide Service about $ 12,000 in return for one $ 4,000 hunt.

When the subject of a refund was broached , all we got was "Read your contract".

It ought to be a two-way street.

Good answers, and thoughtful insight, all. I will keep you posted on things as they develop. Thanks.

That deal smells rotten to the core. I just left Zim and it sounds too fishy. As suggested, I would A. Give the PH and Outfitter ONE chance to offer restitution; something that totally satisfies you, and not just them. B. Never go abroad without travel insurance. Personally I use Travel Guard. C. If satisfaction isn't obtained, I would post all info on the Internet. No Outfitter or PH of integrity would let this go unresolved. It's bad for business, Zimbabwe and hunting in general. You paid for a full trip, you deserve a full trip. I hope it works out in your best interest. Please advise us of the outcome. Good hunting, David

I think this is a situation of WW500do, or what would 500 grains do, LOL where is 500 BTW we need his expert legal and investigative talent on this one

anyways whats the saying posistion is 9/10 of the law, the guy has your money good luck getting any back, hell he has prolly spent it all if he was that shady to begin with, I think you should write all parties a letter, lncluding the people you booked this through and the PH, that you are going to sik 500 grains who is a memeber of the very prostigious and well known AR forums on all parties if someone does not step up and make it right. actions will include but are not limited to public outing on the AR forums etc. before its all done he will be tonderized.

on edit: maybe this is when you stop pay on the check after you get home?? also after you get the animals may be the time to air this, or do they really wanna be publically outed on here??

GeorgeS centerpunched it-TWL will not get his trophies if he pushes this. I have been in a similar situation and was silenced by the thought of not getting my animals.

quote:

actions will include but are not limited to public outing on the AR forums etc. before its all done he will be tonderized.

Easily, that is the best new phrase I have heard in a long time "tonderized" I love it.

I certainly think he owes you 6 days, and should have helped keep the costs down on the additional travel expenses. There are numerous ways he could have done this, for instance he probably could have gotten an outfitter rate at the hotel.

Were you worried about not getting your trophies? Because that is the only reason I can imagine you paid for days you didn't get to hunt.

Just out of curiousity, did you get the primary animals sought? Or were you hoping to get another buffalo or other significant animal?

Did the PH take the position that "you got your animals so the hunt is (technically) over"?

Even if he took this position he was WRONG, I just want to know how he justified charging for the additional days.

Yet another reason to book with a reputable US agent so you have some recourse.

Todd

A similar situation happened in Zambia with my party. The main difference is that we had booked with an honorable stateside agent and he deducted the number of days missed off of our tab prior to sending final funds from the USA. All is fine.

On all contracts, one must include language which desctibes what will happen if the client shoots all game on license in a shorter time frame. This was our issue. We wanted to spend the last three days sight seeing and shooting with a camera which is sometimes not possible if hunting. Ph says you have shot all of the game on license and the hunt is over. Back to Lusaka. The PH did try to get us a trip to shoot Lechwe but the contracted PH was sick and left us stranded. Things happen and the Agent made it right. I have a 21 day full bag safari this year in Tanzania this year with that same agent. The main reason is that he keeps his word.

lb404--who was/is your agent? Thanks.

Good Grief. Doesn't the term Suitcase Professionals ring any bells? When are you people going to learn that PHs are not your friends, your their chickens to be plucked.

File an Ethics claim with SCI immediately. Don't threaten or bluster. Let them handle it .

Unless this is through Out of Africa Safaris, then good luck.

This reconfirms my thoughts that all PHs and Guides need to go to a mandatory class on learning how to work with clients from a business and PR aspect. Just because you can show a dumn ass client something to shoot at doesnt make you God.

I am a businessman with clients of my own and guess what I kiss their ass and jump over the moon to keep them happy at all times. And if I do wrong I make bloody sure I make it right.

I think the big problem is a client befriends the PH/Guide bcoz of the natural atmosphere and then being taken advantage of, which is totally not done. I have seen it done before, especially more so with American based outfitters.

It's best to maintain an arms length business like approach, so they are aware that you are there as a PAYING client and not a buddy so they can F.... around with.

Reddy375

TWL,

Good luck and I wish you the best in what ever decision you make!!

On the flip side of this, there are outfitters that will bend over backwards for you. As in my case, I hunted an extra day and half FREE no extra charge and was given a warthog for FREE. Why? Good question. The outfitter said I was one of the nicest guys he had ever met because of the poor luck I had had thus far in the safari. (Only 1 animal in 5 days of hunting .. some would say piss poor location, PH, outfitter, etc., because blood wasn't spilt every day ... I called it hunting!) He asked if I could stay an extra couple of days, in which I could. Plus, I helped with a little darting too. Man was that a trip!

Hunters that book a hunt with me know up front that they have x number of days of my undivided attention. Yes, I have problems - the cows get out and kids get sick but I plan for those contingencies. Heck, I even got a bad case of the squirts on a hunt - the client said he knew I was full of s&*% but didn't fully appreciate the volume prior to the demonstration.
Don't know how I'd do it but I know what I would have done in that PH's situation. I would have arranged for the remaining days to be filled in a way satisfactory to the client or I would have figured out how to get him home early and refunded his entire daily rate for my failure to adequately plan for contingencies. Client would still owe for trophy fees and I'd appreciate a tip proportional to my performance on the actual days we hunted, but nothing more than that. I also would not expect that client to ever be a repeat customer. That's the way I see it.

Expose the "ratty bastard"