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Mickey: The first part of your statement is precisely why without a name this is a worthless thread. You are painting all {sic} Suitcase Proffessionals with the same brush and that is not fair. In times past, we've seen skullduggery from "Big Name" Outfitters as well. Speaking of "plucked chickens" after looking at some of the rates and charges one gets stuck with when it comes to "big name" Outfitters, I for one am perfectly content with my "Suitcase PH." Your recommendation to register a complaint with SCI is a good one though. jorge USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Deal is settled with a handshake on the floor of SCI Reno. There is no paperwork. Problem NUMBER 1 I'm a contractor and I hear it constantly from friends of mine who bitch about getting "screwed" by someone over something. Question NUMBER 1, what does your contract say? Long pause, then, "Well, I didn't get it in writing..." Moral: NO CONTRACT, then you better bring your own Vasoline, 5 gal size prefered. | |||
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Do your homework beforehand. A contract may give you rights, but are they worth anything if you deal with "a man of straw"? My guess is that a contract would not have made any difference here. You should have seen this "Mickey Mouse" operation for what is before going. Skimp on research and take the chance - and you may be lucky, or shit may happen. Not knowing all the facts, the PH/outfitter seems to have been way out of line, and should be avoided by everyone as he gives the whole industry a bad name. His personal situation is completely irrelevant and he handled the situation line an amateur. There are hundreds of PH's that could have taken over your hunt at the drop of a hat. Johan | |||
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While I find this whole thread very interesting and agree with most of the sentiments expressed, without taking away from all this, TWL is a new poster who has been with us for 3 weeks, with absolutely no information about himself on his profile. The fact that we may be being used should not take away from the justice of his cause, but does leave me a little uncomfortable. Presumably the hunt occurred some time ago, so the issue of cancelling checks is immaterial as, if used, these would be Travellers checks not personal checks. Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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So, now I'm being attacked because I've only been on AR for 3 weeks? Amazing. Thank you. At this point I have reason to believe my situation will be handled in an appropriate manner. All I'm asking is for some insight and perhaps shared experience. Isn't that what AR is for? I can't believe it. 114-R10David | |||
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TWL- I counted 40 or 41 replies/suggestions/sympathetic reactions to your original post, including 3 of mine. It seems you have gotten a good bit of "insight and shared experience" already. I counted 4 or 5 requests for the identity of the scoundrel PH, including mine. Rather than provide the identity, you instead are taking offense at ONE poster who is only pointing out that you are pretty new here and have no info AT ALL in your public profile. A short while ago I posted here looking for suggestions regarding getting a new double to regulate. One of the old timers here responded that maybe I "just couldn't shoot worth a shit". Not exactly the helpful sort of stuff I was looking for, but sometimes free advice is indeed worth what you pay for it. You need to chill out. The forum is giving you helpful info way out of proportion to what you're contributing. But then, THAT IS what AR is for. ______________________ RMEF Life Member SCI DRSS Chapuis 9,3/9,3 + 20/20 Simson 12/12/9,3 Zoli 7x57R/12 Kreighoff .470/.470 We band of 9,3ers! The Few. The Pissed. The Taxpayers. | |||
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Yup! You is exactly what AR is about lately..... | |||
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exactly!!! I for one find it refreshing the guy that started this post didn't just come out and mention the PH's name etc to the public, but rather is giving them a chance to make it right, If you watch the classifieds here all too often a person is tared and feathered before they even have a chance to respond or make things right, the membership always sees through this and usually ends up flaming the guy who made the charge. give the guy a break TWL I don't think i said welcome to AR yet, but welcome bud!! in times when one needs a rifle, he tends to need it very badly.....PHC | |||
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That post is anything but an attack. In fact, Peter was more than gracious in prompting a little more information out of you. It is not so much the fact that you have been on AR a mere 3 weeks, it is really the lack of information about you or your situation that probably led to the post. Folks here have provided some great insight and shared stories. They also have asked for more detail, which has not been forthcoming. Why are more details important? For one, to avoid getting sucked into a situation where only one side of the story is out there. There have been more than a few situations here where that has occurred, which leads people to be a little more cautious in jumping into the fray. Just my opinion, mind you, but I think your post stating you were being attacked does not help your cause. It indicates that your expectations may not be reasonable, and that your version of events may be somewhat jaded by your perceptions. And even though LRH270 can't shoot worth a shit,  his comments here are spot on. One last note: people here are not going to automatically take sides or offer advice without knowing the whole side of the story. The PH you hunted with may have been the PH for numerous hunters here. This site is like anything else in life-you come into a new situation you have to build credibility, especially when you are for all intents and purposes anonymous based on your profile. SCI Life Member DSC Life Member | |||
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Since I don't take trip insurance, I am not certain whereof I speak, but I doubt that the trip insurance policies and companies issuing them that I have read would have paid anything in this case. I'd like comments by people who have been paid by trip insurance that actually went on the trip or that are knowledgeable about these policies. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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TWL Anything short of a SOC # and detailed life biography, which better include many African safaris is worthless to many here. Just the way many of these people here are not all but some. When you are the best hunters and the smartest poeple in the world I guess thats the way it goes. You have to sift through the good and the bad around this joint. | |||
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I believe any reputable PH or Outfitter will make it right. Have you contacted them? For us, it is our policy to make everything right, when things don't go as anticipated. | |||
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Problem #2- Handshake, paperwork, or no paperwork, unless I missed something and I have visited this thread several times as it has developed I am at a loss as to why TWL paid the full bill to begin with when he hadn't had full "satisfaction". Or was happiness there at the time and resentment has now built up? I would have had the "meeting of the minds" when the bill was presented. | |||
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Providing the idenity is immaterial and only provides a deviding line for a fight. If he had wanted to smear someone, he could have. Answer him with suggestions and leave it at that. If you don't want to participate don't! I had a very bad experience with a contracted safari in Tanzania a few years ago. I laid out my story for insight from more experienced African hunters and all I got was "who was the outfitter" statements. I put off the revelation for most of a month while the whole thread was hijacked by anyone who books hunts had a comment. When I did reveal, then "Oh no you must have misunderstood the whole deal." They never would have done that. Moral if you want to accuse someone name names, if you want suggestions on how to handle some particular problem leave names out of the deal. That's how I feel about it anyway. square shooter | |||
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lb exactly  "Science only goes so far then God takes over." | |||
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A reputable professional would not have insisted on full payment; especially when the client objected with rightful cause. I would have stopped payment on the check immediately. Then I would have mailed the not very professional 'PH' the amount that I felt was fair after deducting the extra travel expenses and minus the number of days cut off the agreed trip. This really sounds like the PH was pulling a scam. He forewarned you that he was probably going to cut your safari short, then does so right on schedule. Sounds like a scam. If your hunting dog is fat, then you aren't getting enough exercise.  | |||
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A written contract has never meant much in Africa anyway. A safari client is relying on the integrity of the outfitter whether or not a contract is in place. | |||
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G'day Everyone, Aren't we getting a bit tense about this. he PH probably did have a family emergency and may not be thinking that clearly. Perhaps he left it to his office who automatically billed the full amount. Lots of clients book extra days so they can take extra animals (concession holders insist on the client paying for a minimum number of days for a particular species). Maybe the office thought you'd decided to leave. Maybe a phone call to the PH to ask how he and his family were coping could help. mike | |||
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I know that unless one is willing to bring the fight back to Africa on the home teams turf that a contract is meaningless. That is why I will always try to use an Agent or outfitter in the USA. That doesn't gurantee that the agent/outfitter will adhear to the tenents of the contract, however, if you have a grievence, you can get it addressed stateside. In my case, It would have cost more than the hunt to hire buy a hired gun (attourney) than the amout of the lost value of the hunt. square shooter | |||
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You need to reread his OP. The PH demanded full payment at the same time the PH said the hunt is over. If your hunting dog is fat, then you aren't getting enough exercise. | |||
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If the PH were truly a friend...I would let it go. You got your buffalo and plains game and it is unfortunate the trip was cut short. I stress the "friend" part. I would also have to understand if there are any details missing from the story. Was the cost of the hunt based on a 10 Day buffalo hunt with the option of adding plains game? If this is the case then regardless of how long it takes one must still pay for a 10 day hunt. Example is a 21 day Jumbo hunt...client shoots his bull on day 3...still pays for 21 days regardless if he uses it or not. To me it seems like there are some details missing from this story. ****************************************************************** R. Lee Ermey: "The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." ****************************************************************** We're going to be "gifted" with a health care plan we are forced to purchase and fined if we don't, Which purportedly covers at least ten million more people, without adding a single new doctor, but provides for 16,000 new IRS agents, written by a committee whose chairman says he doesn't understand it, passed by a Congress that didn't read it but exempted themselves from it, and signed by a President, with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn't pay his taxes, for which we'll be taxed for four years before any benefits take effect, by a government which has already bankrupted Social Security and Medicare, all to be overseen by a surgeon general who is obese, and financed by a country that's broke!!!!! 'What the hell could possibly go wrong?' | |||
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Gentlemen, I think some of you might wish to read the first post again. My understanding, the hunt was booked with the PH, who the clients knows from past experience. The PH booked a hunt at a concession he did not own. The PH had a family emergency, which the clients accepted. The outfit that had the concession insisted on full payment. Well, I think they do have the right to insist on full payment, as they did not reneg on their contract. The PH is at fault, and the client should be dealing with him, not the outfitter. This of course would not be the case if the PH was working for the outfitter. | |||
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I agree a contract may be of little legal use in Africa but on the other hand it prevents either party from saying that his understanding of what would be provided is different from the initial agreement. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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I can fully sympathize with those that want to know who the PH and Safari Co. were in this instance or other like instances reported here in the past. A few of us are rich enough (surely not me) to not worry if they were ripped off a little. But most of us are hunting Africa on very limited funds that restrict the number of trips we will ever be able to afford. Being ripped off even to a medium extent not only reduces our number of trips but even more importantly casts a sour shadow and memory on what should be a trip of a life time. 465H&H | |||
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You should also have talked to the PH on the ride back to civilization to "square things up." You have stated that there was an oral (not written) agreement. By your paying the agreed upon amount to the PH you have indeed acknowledged that the (oral) "contract" has indeed been fulfilled, albeit with disappointment on your end. It is also my understanding that the "daily" fee is not really that, rather it is the total amount for the "type" of hunt booked, just broken down into a "daily" number. "Extra" days do indeed go by the "daily" rate. What happened was unfortunate, but shit happens. Sorry, but you have already made your decision and you should be man enough to accept it. FWIW when I went to Mexico I was offered a second mule deer for $3000. I was told to shoot, I tried to tell my guide the deer was no good, but he insisted on shooting him. I did. Even the outfitter was upset with the guide when he saw the piss ant. He asked me if I was happy. I said I wasn't, but I paid the $3000. You had your chance to talk & work something out, now it's sour grapes? C'mon. There are two types of people in the world: those that get things done and those who make excuses. There are no others. | |||
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FMC, I think you may be mistaken in some of the assessment. If one contracts for a 10 day hunt for x animals and no animals are shot, is the contract invalid? There is a time element and an expectation of hunting days. Some days nothing is shot and not because of error, just because there was nothing of note to take. If the client cuts short the trip, shoots everything on a 21 day license in 14 days and then wants to go home, then he has amended his end of the contract and owes the full amount. If the PH/agent/owner/etc. cuts short the time due to his needs then there is some financial arrangement that needs to be made to the hunter by the PH. I don't think it is sour grapes at all. You had a choice in Mexico, this guy didn't have a choice. He was understanding about a family crisis, but still got the shaft. If he had refused to pay the full board what could have happened? Left in the field to fiend for himself? You are hostiage to the PH while you are in a foreign land and don't forget it unless you want to walk back to town! The only recourse is to hash it out there and then or work it out when the immediacy of the situation subsided. I always leave the money for trophy fees with the booking agent in the USA and they are not to be released until I see the full bill. They don't like that deal I walk. There are too many reasonable folks out there to have to do business with flakes. square shooter | |||
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I would say again that I don't think you have any basis for a claim regarding the canceled hunt because the outfitter who you paid the money to was willing and able to provide the days of hunting had there been a ph. The ph left you in a lurch, but you had an oral agreement with him which is unenforceable. However, the ph is legally and morally responsible for the foreseeable consequences of his breach, ie, your hotel, meal and costs associated with changing flights, etc. I believe that if you asked nicely to be compensated for these items with documentation, on reflection, the ph would pay them. It is not a great deal of money to protect his business good will, and it would take the edge off your "loss." I don't think that everyone who has a safari problem must identify company. It is strictly up to the individual. It is good to have a written contract with a person here in the states particularly if you are talking about "big bucks." A contract is good when you have an "event" or a controversy over some aspect of the trip. It is equally good to have trip insurance (and medical insurance) on any trip commiserate with your potential exposure. Kudude | |||
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lb404 Well said. | |||
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Oral agreements are enforceable like any other contract except: Contracts in consideration of marriage. Contracts which cannot be performed within one year. Contracts for the sale of an interest in land. Contracts by the executor of a will to pay a debt of the estate with his own money. Contracts for the sale of goods above a certain value. Contracts in which one party becomes a surety (acts as guarantor) for another party's debt or other obligation. | |||
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Original post deleted. As a hunter I am in full agreement with all. However, as an impartial observer I cannot get past the fact that "client paid in full." That to me implies some sort of satisfaction at that time....... There are two types of people in the world: those that get things done and those who make excuses. There are no others. | |||
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This is BS if some one books a ten day hunt what they came for is ten days in the bush reguardless of what trophies they took or when they took them. This time away from the city is at least as important as the animals I shoot. If I have a problem that cuts the trip short I expect to pay for what I booked, if any expenses are incured by my leaving early I expect to pay them. If my PH screws up my trip I expect him to pay in the form of a decreased charge or refund, if he causes extra expense he should also cover that. In this case I would have not paid untill I was ready to get on the plane and the amount would have been adjusted for days missed and expenses. He could keep the trophies if he wants to be an ass, but he would loose all his US privaliges for life. DR B | |||
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I'm with Dr B. _______________________________________________________ Hunt Report - South Africa 2022 Wade Abadie - Wild Shot Photography Website | Facebook | Instagram | |||
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With a name, this could easily turn into an exercise in character assassination. Not of the PH. The guy may have only posted here since the end of January, and he may not have a great deal in his public profile. That doesn't mean his version of this isn't true. On the other hand:
I've seen various takes on this same theme time and again on this board. It's the client's fault for not getting things in writing. Like this somehow frees the PH to do what he wants. As 500grains has pointed out, an oral contract can be enforced in the U.S. As so many others have pointed out, even a written contract can't be enforced in Africa. I have some experience in this in other parts of the world, just not Africa. There's an old Irish saying, "You can't beat the local horse at the county fair." So why is it that whenever a client joins this board after a bad safari HIS character is immediately questioned? Especially if that safari was conducted with a PH that many of the posters here have had satisfactory experiences. People immediately ride to the PHs defense against a client they know nothing about. But the PH is perfectly entitled to rip the client off if there's nothing in writing. Either the guy is ethical, or he isn't. If the guy isn't, he likely won't be confined by a written contract. If he is, he'll act accordingly regardless of what's in writing. But why are some of you so zealous about defending somebody who has merely fulfilled a contractual obligation to you? Aren't you guilty of extending the same amount of trust to somebody you knew no better than the original poster? | |||
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These types of situations are covered completely by trip insurance (CSA). Dave "What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value." -Thomas Paine, "American Crisis" | |||
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I had a safari once which was cut short by a warvet invasion. The PH and outfitter lost his farm, his house, his father's house. He still managed to offer me a refund for day's not hunted. The PH is responsible in this example to make up the $$$ for the money paid to the outfitter for the days not hunted. He should PAY THESE HIMSELF and not the client. It is not the client's responsibility to pay for days not hunted as a result of some problem of the PH. As Mickey said, when will people learn not to use "suitcase PHs". They have no backup and often no financial backing to make up a wrong. A booking with a decent outfitter might allow a new replacement PH to be supplied maybe in a day or two even if they had to fly the guy in. It is their professional responsibility to FINISH what they promised. As for going on safari on a hand shake and no contract at all? When have we last seen that being advocated as a way of doing business on AR? And how did that work out in the end? A way of getting screwed if things go wrong more like it with no come back except for a lot of abuse from the "no contract/ hand shake/ my word is my bond/ no lawyers" type guy. Contracts can be used to argue your case with the SCI or PH professional organisations, not just in the courts. They state out as a minimum the hunting area, the days to be hunted, game on quota, prices etc. If I book ten days I expect ten days hunting. If less and their fault at the VERY least no payment for the days not hunted. At best compensation for airfares, insurance, hotel bills etc etc, all the EXTRA costs of getting there. The extra costs are not insubstantial. I also think the PH and outfitter should be named. However we know how the messengers/victims on here often get bagged by vested interests. I would have argued with the outfitter that my deal is with the PH. I will deal with him and pay him for days actually hunted. He deals with you the outfitter and HE is responsible for the days not hunted out of his own pocket. Collect it from him not me. Most outfitters would eventually see reason in this and want to avoid negative press. | |||
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If their was no written contract the the Hunter is not bound to fulfill the contract any more than the PH is. All the more reason when the PH was unreasonable at the end of the hunt the Cliet had every right to consider the first oral contract null and void ant then enter into negociation of just how much he was going to pay if anything. If any thing my lost opertunity to make income during the part of the safari that did not happen was the major expense would outweigh any clain of the PH DR B | |||
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Amen brother!!!The deck is stacked against the hunter on almost every turn. The usual excuse is that is the nature of hunting. My response is MY DOLLARS ARE SLIPPERY ALSO! square shooter | |||
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File a letter of concern with SCI Send copies to everyone involved "over there", notifying them that in ten calendar days you will report your treatment here and on every African hunting forum you can find...in gory detail! Send a copy to that country's Hunting Board and let them know that this situation has soured you on hunting again in their country and that you will be advising EVERYONE!!! to hunt elsewhere because of this one PH ("Peanut Head". Hindsight is 20/20, but I would have said "no finish huntee, no payee..." and sat back to see what his response was. If he left me there, that might have been the best part of the deal. Time for packing the GPS and going "walkabout" every morning. At some point in time they would be bringing another client in, and surely would love to see you there with your story to tell. I would also try and get to SCI shows and let the crowd know who the guy with the sandwich board was standing across from his booth. Rich DRSS | |||
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Quite a read. I find it interesting and don't have the answer - not enough info. What I find amazing is when someone posts a piece of info on here, and never supplies any further information or even says thanks for the input . . . until they perceive an attack and then all of a sudden get defensive, still providing no info . . . Bad manners? Guess so, and I assume TWL is fully satisfied with the outcome and with the responses otherwise he would have at least given out some more of the information for further discussion, Waidmannsheil, Dom. -------- There are those who only reload so they can shoot, and then there are those who only shoot so they can reload. I belong to the first group. Dom --------- | |||
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Actually, it's bad manners to attack somebody without knowing the facts. He did exactly what you say he didn't. This from 23 Feb at 03:04
Then a few hours later the same day (20:34, to be exact) he gets "defensive," as you put it.
Really? That's what you consider never supplying "any further information or even says thanks ... until they perceive an attack and then all of a sudden get defensive, still providing no info ..." Never is 18 hours? Well, you're wrong on several levels. First, he definitely thanked those who posted. Second, he's not obligated to provide more info. He is definitely not obligated to provide the names of PH or Outfitter. Why should he, if he has reason to believe his situation will be handled appropriately? To satisfy the morbid curiousity of members of in internet forum? And cut his own throat by generating bad blood between himself and his PH? Yeah, like that would make sense. Maybe I'm wrong about you wanting to know the names of the PH and outfitter. What information do you need to provide insight (he never asked for an answer, just insights and thoughts). You never say. It would have been "good manners" to ask a question instead of accusing him of bad manners due to your own misinformation. So, third, no one is obligated to post if they don't want to be constructive. | |||
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