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Having purused these boards for awhile, I see people posting who act as if hunting buffalo, elephant, lion, etc. in Africa is some sort of dangerous sport. Having hunted and taken buffalo in Zimbabwe, and passing on other large game (simply because it seemed to lack sport), I am not impressed that there is all that much risk in hunting the Big Five. I would like to point out that more people are killed in Georgia hunting whitetails every year, than are white hunters in all of Africa. When hunting in Zimbabwe I was also impressed by the fact that about half the hunters there were, um....how do you say....Fat (either 40 to 100 lbs overweight). Sports that the obese can participate in haven't grabbed me as being all that vigorous (but not that they shouldn't have fun too). I have no doubt that a buffalo can flatten a human being...just as a taxi cab can in NYC (although again, there are more pedestrians killed by cabs in New York than white hunters injured or killed in Africa every year). It seems to me that we (hunters) have proven pretty conclusively that wild cattle and subungulates are no match for large caliber firearms. I hunt because I enjoy the outdoors, and the connection between my actions, a living creature, and the food I eat. How do you think people have gotten the misconception that hunting in Africa is somehow dangerous? | ||
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........... ![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif){kind=icon} be nice, eric, don't say anything | |||
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Garrett, I'm living in Africa, and hunt as often as I can. No PH, no expensive trip, just pick up a couple of guns and a friend or two, jump in the 4WD, and head for a few days in the bush with barely more "special expedition accessories" than what you'd take for a picnic. I do agree that dangerous animals are not dangerous when everything goes right, and when you kill them cleanly if you are hunting them, or do not interfere too much with them when you are just passing. But when things go wrong, they go wrong big time, and fast. A not-quite-dead and thoroughly pissed-off buffalo, or hippo, or whatever else, will really keep life interesting for whoever is close enough. And sometimes, you just find yourself in circumstances that are very far from what you planned initially (ever trekked in lion country around midnight, no moon, and only a side-by-side 12 gauge in your hands? That was a time I was SOOOOO happy that I didn't see any lion at alll...!) As said above, a dead dangerous animal is not so dangerous. But the process of making it dead is not always without unforeseen mishaps. And these are the times that make up for all those quiet hunts... | |||
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"Dangerous" is an adjective describing the game animals, not the hunt. On the other hand, any safari is, or can be, inherently dangerous. Comparing the number of people killed in automobile accidents to those killed or seriously injured by Cape buffalo is a false analogy. Not only are the numbers of people engaged in each activity monumentally different, so are the circumstances and physical laws governing each. Skydiving is not a dangerous sport--until the chute fails to open. | |||
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Fewer people would be killed by taxi cabs in NY every year if the peds. were allowed to carry heavy caliber rifles to stop them from running them over. ![[Eek!]](images/icons/shocked.gif){kind=icon} I think I smell a little antimatter hear so I will not bite. ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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Nitro, My analogy wasn't so much car accidents, but whitetail hunting in Georgia, where I think the numbers might be more comparable. I don't deny there is some risk in hunting buffalo, lion, or elephant, I just think that the risk is quite small. Statistically, it is about as risky as hunting whitetail in the US. And yes, things can go bad very quickly on a safari, but so can things when hiking, mountaineering, and other outdoor sports. It's funny, you just don't see kyakers refer to class 5 rapids as "white death", but check out the hunting videos entitled "Black Death". It seems rather melodramatic to me. Garrett | |||
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Alright Mr. Garrett, I'll play! How many times have you hunted Africa? Where exactly were these "fat, out of shape hunters" ?(Anti- hunter stereotype) Where in Zim were these big subungulates just standing around waiting to be massacred? No offense, but sounds like you've spent more time in New York City dodging taxi cabs driven by Africans, than dodging lions in Africa full of Africans! | |||
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A. Wound a deer and go looking for it in the thick stuff. B. Wound a buffalo and go looking for it in the thick stuff, especially when there are cow elephants around. 1. Which one is more hazardous? 2. Which one would you rather do? Regards, Terry [ 07-13-2003, 01:13: Message edited by: T.Carr ] | |||
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I hunted in Zimbabwe in the Cheriza region (for buffalo...elephant was offered there too). For plains game I was at Nottingham, near Kuduland. My outfitter was Alec Strauss. In the Cheriza district, I guess I came across maybe 15 or so other client hunters, some that came to visit our camp, and others I saw (and spoke with) when we crossed our paths in the jess. I plan on going back to Africa, but I am more interested in hunting the western regions such as Gabon and Guinea (twice now my hunting trips to Guinea have been canceled by the government, due to rebel activity where we were going...the Hunting Report had some info on it). I don't know if I agree about overweight men being the stereotype of hunters. Africa was the first place I have ever seen that phenomenon. It struck me because I don't remember seeing anyone fat while hunting elk or moose in North America. And on-line here, I see people debate relative minutiae about arms and hunting, when the actual risk to them is quite small. I love hunting, I just don't pretend it's the most dangerous thing I do. Garrett | |||
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N.Garret, Hunting in Gabon and Guinea? Are you refering to Equatorial Guinea between Cameroon and Gabon?? LG | |||
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quote: the hunting of whitetail in the USA, is MORE dangerous than the HUNTING of the Big five in Africa, but it has nothing to do with whether a Cape Buffalo is dangerous or not! The danger in hunting of whitetail is because there is guy behind every tree, with a shotgun shooting buckshot, or a rifle in the 300 Wby Mag class that will shoot flat for a mile. I'm sure you are not going to tell anyone here that whitetail are dangerous game, to anything but a car on the highway. In Africa, one may hunt for months on end, and never see another hunter, and since he and the PH, and Game scout are the only ones carrying rifles, and all have the same goal in mind, the danger from the most dangerous thing in the world, a man, is nowhere as dire as in the Tenn whitetail woods. Make no mistake, however, when you fail to put a Cape buffalo down, and have to follow him into the weeds to sort him out, you will change your mind about the danger, in short order. Anyone can sit off at 200 yds and snipe Buffalo, but if that is the way you hunt dangerous game, then you are correct, dangerous game is simply NOT DANGEROUS at long range,and if you wound him, and he gets into the thorn, he is still not dangerous to YOU, as a client hunter. The PH, however,who is required by law to go into the jess with him, he most likely would not agree he is not dangerous. Since I consider this a strawman thread, designed to make people say things they wouldn't normally, I will not add more to this lunacy! ![[Cool]](images/icons/cool.gif){kind=icon} [ 07-13-2003, 01:32: Message edited by: MacD37 ] | |||
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Mr Carr, I've done both. In Cheriza, I wounded a buffalo with a borrowed 458 Win Mag. We tracked it for about 2.5 hours, stumbled on it several times, and the tracker finally spotted it hiding behind some brush at the edge of the trail (where we would have walked past it). The trackers were actually more worried about lion where we were since it was late morning by then. I was worried about elephant one night when we had been tracking a buffalo, and stayed out late. No one brought a flashlight, and for about one hour we walked a road through the bush long after dark. The PH was concerned too, since you can walk up on elephant in the dark without getting any prior notice. It was a great hunt. Probably about as risky as when I took my first elk as a boy. Garrett | |||
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Mac, You spoke to me on the phone back in 1999 when I had my Kodiak rifle rebored to 458 RCBS. We discussed loads, and you e-mailed me an old article from Reloader about it. I don't pretend to be the most experienced hunter out there. My father started me hunting about age 6, and that was 40 years ago. I still haven't hunted Asia, but I am saving my pennies to do so. As I have gotten older I pull the trigger on game less and less....usually waiting now for something special. I'll never be half the killer you are. Garrett | |||
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Okay, I'll bite. Like I have said in the past as to recommending dangerous game rifles: Nothing like lack of experience. | |||
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Loerenzo, No, Guinea between Liberia and Sierra Leone. Christain Weth was the booking agent. It will be a great hunt when it happens, as Guinea wants to open up to tourist hunting from Europe and America. But Gabon is my real dream, and it may have some of the densest Bongo populations in all of Western Africa. Gabon has allowed some western hunters in recently, but none have yet really penetrated into the untouched/unspoilt regions (that I have heard of). Meat hunting by locals has really harmed some areas that are most accessible. Garrett | |||
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N. Garrett - Fat Georia whitetail hunters having heart attacks climbing into tree stands or vs. fat American in Southern Africa being killed by the big five in the bush. Interesting pie graph. ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} I would think there would be some sort of bell curve intersecting lines for drinking beer on the tree stand and not listening to the PH? I don't know how the illegal alien N.Y.C cab driver would impact your chart. | |||
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Garrett: You're of course quite correct about the number of deer hunting deaths in Georgia; however, most of them are due to people being careless and falling out of tree stands. Personally, I won't hunt out of a stand. An elevated blind, yes. But not a stand. The other deaths are typically hunters shooting each other, themselves, or non-hunters. Bad stuff any way you cut it. Still, I think the comparisons to African hunting are dissimilar. The most comparable hunting in North America is probably for any of the bears but most especially the browns. Any wild animal is potentially dangerous when wounded or cornered. | |||
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Nitro, Not to put to fine a point on it, I think most of the deaths in GA are from one hunter shooting another. I'd agree that injuries though are way up there from falling out of stands (and as a physician/surgeon I have treated more than a few of these). Garrett | |||
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Garrett, Based on your previous experience, you consider hunting elk as dangerous as hunting a wounded buffalo? Would that elk have been "hiding behind some brush at the edge of the trail"? If it had been, what are the percentages that it would have attacked you? While hunting elk or deer, do you have to worry about lion or stumbling into an elephant in the dark? If you stumble into an elk in the dark what is likely to happen? If you stumble into an elephant in the dark, what is likely to happen? You were "worried" about this, but don't consider it any more dangerous than elk hunting? Why worry? A simple apology from you to the elephant and you're on your way. No worries. So, the "worry" of the trackers about lion and the "concern" of the PH about elephant was, in your estimation, misplaced? They obviously don't have the wealth of knowledge or experience that you possess regarding dangerous game in Africa. You are correct in one regard, I am more likely to get killed slipping in my shower than by a buffalo or elephant in Africa. From now on, I'm taking my .416 to the bathroom with me. Regards, Terry P.S. What would you rather experience? A car accident (very frequent, but usually not fatal) or a plane crash (not that frequent, but generally not surviveable). I am not familiar with "Cheriza" in ZIM. Are you perhaps referring to Chirisa? [ 07-13-2003, 01:58: Message edited by: T.Carr ] | |||
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Hey, I rode in a car once and wasn't killed I guess that's not all it is cracked up to be. Am I using the correct logic? Part of the equation might be, maybe, the whitetail hunter PH's aren't as good as the African PH's Am I getting the drift or is that goofy, like the car logic as well as.............. Making this a statistical comparrison, between whitetail and Cape Buffalo doesn't even make sence. Good Hunting, "Z" | |||
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Terry, I may not be articulating my position clearly enough. To back up a second, there has recently been a lot of interest in the scientific community about how humans percieve risk. It turns out that our perception of relative risk is very far from what the measured risk actually is. If you track a wounded buffalo through high grass/bush, you take a risk that is calculable, but "feels" differently from when you are doing it. It happens that sometimes hunters are gored or even killed by large animals in Africa, but the actual number is quite small...2 to 5 per year. Yet thousands (yes thousands) of tourist hunters visit the continent of Africa each year. The actually risk to each hunter is quite small, but feels larger to us individually because of what we think we know and can therefore imagine. I was careful tracking my wounded buffalo, but I also knew that the rifle I was carrying was more than adequate to stop it even at close range. When hunting elk with my father, he came damn close to losing a leg when his horse lost its footing as slid halfway down a mountain face with him on it. That scared me much more, as memory serves me. I have friends who engage in what I consider truly risky behavior...freeclimbing, motorcycle racing, etc (I don't do either). Predictably, some of those friends have died doing it. I have lost acquaintances and close friends to hunting, but it has been plane crashes, accidental discharge of firearms and similar accidents. One orthopod I know of from Florida (but was not friends with) was killed in Africa when an elephant stepped on him. He wasn't hunting, he had just stepped outside of the camp area, apparently to take a wiz. You have to be careful around elephants. Garrett | |||
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quote:Garrett, you will notice I edited my post, as I remembered what you just told me about the 458RCBS after I wrote my post. I assume the statement above by you is in response to what I deleted! If not, you need to know one thing, I am NOT a killer, but a HUNTER, if you don't know the difference, then you need some education, on what hunting is all about. I have most likely passed up more game in my 60 years of hunting on my own, than some have seen in the wild. The killing is the least important thing in hunting, unless done sloppily, with no regard to clean humane kills. I hunt dangerous game the way it is supposed to be hunted, up close and personal! If not what would be the point? Nobody here has ever said that you are in danger every moment, no matter what you are hunting, or where! But to say an animal that when wounded, and confronted at close range,and has only one thing on his mind, and that is to defend it's self, is not dangerous, is simply denying the facts. In further response to the origenal post, you may hunt in Africa, for many years, without ever haveing a tense moment, but the next time you go it may get right out of hand. If it does, I hope you will be able to stay calm enough to take care of buisness when the reality of your possible empending demise, becomes clear in you mind! I think after that day your Cavalier attitude will disappear! Maybe not, but if it doesn't, then you are missing something in your very make up, IMO. | |||
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Garrett, So now we are talking about the "perception" of risk? To quote your original post: "How do you think people have gotten the misconception that hunting in Africa is somehow dangerous?" Statistically it isn't. Situationally it is. Another quote: "You have to be careful around elephants." Quite perceptive of you. Regards, Terry | |||
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Garrett I would say of the common forms of shooting that shooting kangaroos while chasing them in a vehichle is about as dangerous as it gets....the hidden stump in the ground. However, I think the difference between the above scenario, your deer shooting and the dangerous game is that the dangerous game animal brings about the death or injury of the hunter on its own. In other words it is the animal itself that is dangerous, not the method used to hunt or shoot. Mike | |||
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Garrett and Gentelmen, This may not be my discussion so I will say this and "listen". Garrett makes a point and if I understand correctly, essentially he is saying "perception is reality". However, there is an unstated mathematically implied factor also. Compare the number of people you know that hunt dangerous game to the number of people that hunt deer and or elk. The implied risk or even more the "blood sport" the "chance" you may have a heart attack, your gun (that should stop a charge) may malfunction, it boils down to the fact "shit happens", I'm sure there are guys that die of heart attacks sitting on the couch watching football. THAT IS WHY WE DO WHAT WE DO,HUNT, BECAUSE OF THE UNKNOWN! We want to know how we measure up inclusive of the unknown. Sure I get your fat wealthy hunter with the new shirts, wrong bino's for the task etc. that stereotype is not true across the board and if you believe it is you have not been paying attention to who really is out there wholesale. I know two guys that were beat up by buffalo and survived, I also knew a guy that was bow hunting caribou and died of a heart attack when he drew his bow, and he was in good shape. Then there was a fellow employee who tore up a knee and had to have reconstructive knee surgery, oh yea, he was RABBIT HUNTING. If you want to defeat the argument, of statistics, use motor vehicles; several hundred million vehicles move everyday in the US. Somewhere between 109 or 110 people, on the average, will be killed about 1000 people will experience permanent physical damage from those crashes everyday. Compare those statistics to the number of people who hunt the big five...... Yes it is the same, it is comparing apples and oranges, as you are. It would seem to me that what Garrett is trying to make a comparrison to is a death wish rather than a sport that has risk of death as a factor. Let me sit back and "listen" now, Thank You for indulging me. Good Hunting, "Z" | |||
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quote:Way too many innuendos, cliches, stereotypes, and "book knowledge" for me.... The lines about hunters shooting each other, and actually having "close friends" that suffered that fate sealed it for me... | |||
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Having followed this forum for some years, I couldn't help noticing that none of the outfitters nor PHs that usually contribute responded to "N.Garrett". Does that mean N.Garrett was correct? Could it be that his statements are so nonsensical to people who HAVE BEEN THERE as not to be worth dignifying by answer - any more than sane people don't respond to a madman's rants? | |||
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Mr. Garrett, by definition, "dangerous" game is dangerous because it has the capacity to kill or wound. So, the act of hunting dangerous game, by default is "dangerous". In fact, being 100lbs overweight and hunting dangerous game is probably more dangerous than being in top shape, hunting dangerous game. You see, it's really quite easy. You are thinking way to hard about this. | |||
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I was not going to respond to Garrets tripe and total lack of knowledge simply because he does not have a clue what he is talking about.. Every year one or more PHs or hunters get killed and/or injured, always a tourist or two get eaten, stomped or gored and a goodly number of all out charges and close calls take place.. I can name you a number of PH's that have met with horn, claw or teeth. I keep track of this sort of thing as do most of the folks in the business, it comes to us through SCI, telephone and email..apparantly Garret isn't privy to much from Africa...I attended a PH's funeral last year in Tanzania, I had only met him once, a nice fellow, but I was there with Pierre and went out of respect.... A little knowledge is a dangerous thing and that is what were dealing with here, a guy thats been to Africa a couple of times and is now all knowing... It's BS.... | |||
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I can't speak for the other states, but I believe that in Wisconsin the leading killer during deer season is heart attacks. | |||
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N.Garrett, I am not sure what you are getting at... Are you compairing statistics of other pursuits in life (crossing the street, driving a car, riding in a airplane) to hunting african game. Or are you saying that people should not concern themselves with wounded african game? Or are you saying that while hunting african game, a person should be no more concerned/alert/prepared then hunting anything else because at the same moment while hunting, other parts of the world, and other activities are more dangerous? quote: It turns out that our perception of relative risk is very far from what the measured risk actually is. If you track a wounded buffalo through high grass/bush, you take a risk that is calculable, but "feels" differently from when you are doing it. No! This is wrong. You can not attribute feelings of any pending risk to a calculated number that has its own scale of what you should be feeling. Secondly tracking a wounded buffalo has no calculations for a resolve that has yet to occure. Being a passenger in a plane that is crashing has nothing to do with how many times you have flown. For some it will be their first for others their 500th. Statistics will NEVER tell you what *amount* of danger your in. I like to add... Quote: I was careful tracking my wounded buffalo, but I also knew that the rifle I was carrying was more than adequate to stop it even at close range. Regardless of how good a shot a person might be, only a fool would say something like this. Or a wannabe. [ 07-13-2003, 04:16: Message edited by: smallfry ] | |||
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Garret, Next time book a tracking Lion hunt or Leopard hunt and stay out of the truck...I'd like to see your balls bulging out under your ears ![[Razz]](images/icons/tongue.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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Has anyone considered that the fellow with the nom de plume of N. Garrett is a possible "ANTI" who is having some fun at our expense? I've taken a big whiff and something has a very bad odor. | |||
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Perhaps one of our old Trolls incognito!! | |||
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Ray, That's a distinct possibility. I noticed he has been in the forum less than a month. Probably been taking a few notes. Jotting down a PH name here and there. Maybe a likely hunting spot or two. [ 07-13-2003, 04:25: Message edited by: Scrollcutter ] | |||
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I don't agree with his post but I don't think he is an anti or something like that. Take a look at www.huntingreport.com/hunting_article_details.cfm?id=811 LG | |||
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So, I guess I have to loose weight before I go hunting again? And here, I was thankful to be a balding old fat man on the downhill slide of a mediocre career! Yikes! | ||
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quote:Exactly what I meant by "book knowledge" above... Some of his lines are straight out of the cheap gun rags. | |||
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Ray- It talks and walks just like Axel! Why bother!You can't explain anything to a "one time know it all"-Rob | |||
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quote:I don't know Terry there are places here in the US where you stand a pretty good chance of being shot at while moving around in the brush. | |||
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