African big game is not my experience - so I'll cede that to those much more qualified to speak on the matter.

I do know that dangerous game is dangerous game, no matter where the animal is located.

True statement: a white-tailed deer or an elk are generally NOT going to circle around you, track you down, and try to to spoil your day with a thrust of horn to the gut or a trample underfoot, like the Cape Buffalo, the elephant, or the rhinoceras.

Another true statement: I see absolutely no difference between these situations: 1)hunting antelope in Africa and coming across a lion/elephant/insert big dangerous animal of choice and....

...hunting elk in the northern Rocky mountains and coming across a grizzly bear with her cubs;

...hunting big horn sheep in British Columbia and happening upon a large mountain lion or black bear;

...hunting caribou in Alaska and surprising a big brown bear.

ANY of those three situations can - and has - ended with the death or severe injury to the hunter.

One more true statement: Lions and leopards are very dangerous because of their abilities to track you down and maul you if wounded (leopards add the nice little surprise of aerial assault if you don't watch the trees as well).

So, too, will large bears and jaguars in the Americas.

Go to Asia, and one must also deal with bears - and tigers as well, every bit as dangerous as the lion.

So, which would I prefer - to chase down a wounded Cape buffalo in the thick, or a wounded deer? A deer, of course. But replace that deer with a 450 lb feral boar that's cornered in the thick...I'd rather not get a nasty surprise in either situation, thank you very much.

It's no different to me if I was trekking through the African bush and stumble across a lion, or hiking in the Rockies and come across a large grizzly - both can make short work of a person fairly quick.

But to say there's little danger involved in pursuing dangerous game? I think that's overreaching the argument a bit.

'Loader

We may as well give up, this guy has all the bases covered. I still say Garrett has been cheated out of the essences of hunting dangerous game in Africa. That's too bad, because he spent a lot of money without getting what he paid for.

The whole idea of hunting things that can, and will kill you,given the chance, is, to test your own mettle. That can only happen if you reccognize the risk. This is what Garrett missed, and the trouble is he believes the tripe he's spouting here! There is an old saying any man who says he isn't scared by an something that has the ability, and desire to mame, or kill him is either a liar, or simply crazy! The whole problem with his opinion is the title to this string "DANGEROUS GAME ISN'T" That statement doesn't say under the condition that you are in an airplane 1000 feet above it, or that you have the right rifle, or you are protected by another human being,the PH, but simply "DANGEROUS GAME ISN'T" a statement that is simply wrong. All the statistics in the world will not make it true. Gentelmen, dangerous game IS Dangerous, hence the name!
Now I'm through!

[ 07-15-2003, 18:41: Message edited by: MacD37 ]

Quote by NGarrett: N'gagi made the point about risks in sub-Saharan hospitals from HIV/AIDS.
I think I do know about those risks since I have operated a few hundred patients with HIV.

N. Garrett, my fiance is a med student, and I showed her this statement. We are kinda both curious as to what kind of surgon you are in TN, where you have operated on several hundred aids patients? Also... given the ratio and case number of HIV infected persons in TN, how many people without HIV have you operated on? Given that the HIV rate in TN for 2001 is 10.5 persons per hundred thousand, and you have operated on several hundred(at least 200)... that gives me an gross rate of people you operated on of 1,904,761.9... of course thats a silly number so I divided the number by a factor of one thousand percent... so maybe only... 190,476 people you have operated on? Do I need to divide more?
Also... while your at it... answer a few of my questions from page 1.

[ 07-15-2003, 19:18: Message edited by: smallfry ]

Virtually anything is dangerous if done incorrectly. Simple fact of the matter is take the �danger� out of the activity of hunting dangerous game and suddenly most of the thrill is gone. The exploits of those who have hunted dangerous game is suddenly much diminished in the eyes of their family and friends and those who make a living off of selling, booking and guiding people who pursue dangerous game can no longer get the fees they are getting. Therefore there is a vested interest to magnify the danger level.

I am making no comment with respect to the inherent danger level of actually hunting dangerous game I am just pointing out a fact of human nature which I think is in line with the original question on this thread.

Garret,
Please go down to Game Fair and hang out with the other hunters (experts)or buy an over priced shotgun to make yourself feel better. I put a lot more faith in what Ray, Mac, and others have to say. I have only been to africa two time... When around the big five you increase your risk by just being there. I bumped into Buffalo, Lion, and Lepord.....at any time someting could have gone wrong.

How can you even aford to go hunting with 25% of the population on TENNCARE. I bet you are getting rich on 11% on the dollar.

But what do I know..
urdubob

[ 07-15-2003, 19:48: Message edited by: urdubob ]

LEOPARD KILLS STUDENT RANGER

The IUCN Cat Specialist Group reports that a student ranger was killed by a leopard in Kruger National Park in front of a group of tourists he was escorting. He kept watch as the group descended from their vehicle. The leopard charged out of the bushes and grabbed him by the throat. Rangers arrived and had to shoot the leopard as it was feeding on the body. They reported that the leopard was old and mangy and had wounds from fights.



TOURIST KILLED BY ELEPHANT (1999)

The African Wildlife Update reports that a tourist was killed in Namibia by an elephant recently. The tourist mistakenly camped in the dry river bed and bumped into a lone bull in musth at night. He ran but the bull pursued him for 300 yards, caught and killed him. The bull then charged the man�s family who took refuge in their vehicle. Fortunately the bull broke off his charge at that point.

Elephants kill immigrant outside Kruger (January 25, 2002)

Sapa reports on allAfrica.com that an illegal immigrant from Mozambique was killed on January 23 by five elephants near Giyani outside the Kruger National Park in Northern Province.

Three illegal immigrants from Mozambique reportedly entered South Africa through the Kruger National Park. After making it through the park, they decided to sleep near Giyani. On awaking they were confronted by the five elephants. Two of the men managed to escape, but the third, Fernado Shishongi, was trampled to death, the article states.

Killer hyaenas on the loose in Malawi (January 08, 2002)

The Star reports that man-eating hyaenas have killed at least six people on the outskirts of the country's capital, Blantyre, since Christmas.

Villagers say the hyaenas in the area normally attack goats and chickens, but flee when people approach. However, these particular hyaenas have no fear of people, even breaking down doors to attack people in their sleep.

Wildlife authorities have been instructed to kill the animals.

Woman killed by hippo (February 04, 2002)

The Star reports that a woman from Boksburg, Gauteng, was fatally trampled by a raging female hippo when she tried to photograph the animal's calf.

According to the article, Annatjie Mienie and her family were on vacation at the Kruger Park Lodge in Hazyview, Mpumalanga, when the incident took place. Mrs Mienie had apparently been standing near the dam at the lodge, videotaping a small crocodile, when she turned her camera on a hippo calf. It was then that the calf's enraged mother attacked her, the article states.

Mrs Mienie was rushed to a doctor, who performed emergency first aid. She was then taken to the Nelspruit MediClinic in a bid to save her life, but died on the way to the hospital.

Leopard Pair Kill Two in Ethiopia (March 20, 2002)

The Star reports that two leopards devoured two employees of a banana plantation in Ethiopia's eastern Chiro district.

According to the article the men were at work when they were attacked and consumed by the hungry cats.

One of the leopards was later caught and killed by locals, while the other escaped, the article states.

Lion Loose in Phalaborwa (March 04, 2002)

The Star reports that security forces are searching for a lion that killed a Mozambiquan immigrant and dragged his body through the middle of Phalaborwa on Saturday night.

According to the article the victim fell asleep outside the Kruger National Park, where he was then killed by the lion and dragged through the town.

Members of the public are asked to contact the police if they lion is spotted, the article sta

Tourist trampled by elephant in Tanzania (January 12, 2001)

Sapa-AP reports on IOL.CO.Za that an American woman, Natalie Waldinger, was trampled to death by an elephant in Ruaha National Park in central Tanzania on 7 January this year.

The elephant apparently became enraged when Natalie, a US Peace Corps volunteer teacher, left her vehicle to take a picture of the animal.

The deadly attack is the first of its kind in the Ruaha park which boasts the largest number of elephants in Tanzania's parks after the Selous Game Reserve next to the Mozambique border, the article states

Kruger elephant tramples Mozambican mother and child to death (August 16, 2001)

The Pretoria News reports that a mother and her daughter, believed to be Mozambican immigrants, were killed by an elephant in the Kruger Park while trying to enter South Africa.

According park spokesperson William Mabasa, they were part of a group of 14 people who crossed the border from Mozambique.

Regards,

Terry

Dr. Garret,
If you will read my last post on SD over at HA, I said the same thing that you just said here..you listen but you do not hear...in effect you just admitted that I was correct, I don't understand....but that was merely conversation and I respect your posts and disagreement on that one..not this one.

I would bet that your a pretty good guy, but got in over your head on this one, and the best way to get out of a hole you dug for yourself is quit digging...

Your now rambling about subjects that really have no substance with the thread..I don't believe anyone here has said being killed by dangerous game is a daily happening, but rather it is something not to be taken so lightly as you purpose..

As to a "man thing" and bravery, I think you are trite in that statement referring off handed to your own bravado and inferring that the rest of us are less brave than you...So I will tell you from the get go, I'm a braver man than you or you will ever be, and I have never mentioned my bravado to anyone on this board or to anyone who knows me personally, not one time in my life, until just now, and I am doing so for the sake of conversation and to make a point, that point being that I am very carefull and not foolish, as I know arrogrance can get one killed in the streets of So. Dallas, Nuevo Laredo, or the Selous of Tanzania. I learned that a long time ago in my career with DEA, I learned it in the Masai, Selous and RSA on specific ocassions...I don't think your bravado or mine is relevent to the posters here, just us...However,I feel that I can assure you the ones I know would stand a charge should the event occur. I know I would be glad to have them help out..Most are very experienced and many are as experienced as you, but more humble than you.

I believe your experience is limited and that in time you will come to the conclusion that all the posters here are correct and that you are wrong, but it will take a wake up call to get you to come to your senses...Apparantly you do not believe the stories you hear at SCI, but you might be surprised how accurate they really are..

You sir, are a perfect example of a little knowledge is a dangerous thing...You may be one hell of a surgeon, I bet you are, but that does not qualify you as an expert in my field of expertise...so I won't tell you how to take someones tonsils out and you don't tell me about my field of expertise...fair enough.

What I think is that you should stick around here, lets all call a truce and start from scratch..but be carefull what you say on this board as you will get challanged, I have and so has everybody else...A good mauling every now and then does wonders for the soul.

Mauling? Isn't that something dangerous game does?

It is dangerous to draw conclusions from so little first hand experience. My cousin took three buffalo with 5 shots from my 338 and came to the conclsion that he needed to take one with a bow to add some sport. However no 4 absorbed at least 10 rounds from him and his partner before expiring.

I'm 6'7", 300 pounds. I played football, and baseball. I have one gunshot wound, I raced motorcyles in Baja, Climbed big walls in Yosemite, and I prefer hunting animals with horns, teeth and claws instead of antlers.

Okay, I guess I have a problem supressing my bravado. Perhaps I'm trying to repress some kind of self-esteem problem...

I should probably talk to a doctor....You win.

[ 07-16-2003, 03:31: Message edited by: N'gagi ]

Ray:
You, again, prove to me why you are one of my heroes. Yes, there is some value in getting ones ass kicked, even if it's the written word. Let's see if Garrett is half the man as you are... I "truce", too. What do you say Doctor? Let's go hunting... and I'll even warn you of what's dangerous down here in Georgia.

Ngagi,
6"-7" 300 lbs is a wimp, hell Judge and I are bigger than you, you wuss!! Well we are put together, almost anyway

I guess he sleeps about any place he dicides to huh!

Hi Garret
It was discrimnating and outrageous the way you describe the fat hunters !! go and wash your mouth a couple of times,then beg for pardon there are plenty of hunting experience hidden under those kilos! that you thiny guys can never afford it . better to be fat and shoot good than being thiny and missing a lot of manhood
danny

Gentlemen,

All this fuss and so far nobody as given a straight answer to Garrett�s very first question!

quote:

---

How do you think people have gotten the misconception that hunting in Africa is somehow dangerous?

---

Experienced men like Ray, Terry and others should have realised that Mr. Garret is a fellow that can't be impressed that easy by any wild beast!

quote:

---

Having hunted and taken buffalo in Zimbabwe, and passing on other large game (simply because it seemed to lack sport), I am not impressed that there is all that much risk in hunting the Big Five.

---

.

How could he be impressed or feel somehow in danger?!

quote:

---

I was careful tracking my wounded buffalo, but I also knew that the rifle I was carrying was more than adequate to stop it even at close range.

---

He was carrying is faithful BIGBORE stopper (not a tinny 8x57 or even a 9,3x62 like our forefathers!)

And there was plenty of people around to clean his mess and watch over him!

quote:

---

We tracked it for about 2.5 hours, stumbled on it several times, and the tracker finally spotted it hiding behind some brush at the edge of the trail (where we would have walked past it).

---

So how can we expect him to realise that the B5 are really DG?

Do you think Ann wouldn't mind given him the chance of taking that buffalo hunt with the 45x70 (factory loads, no trackers, no PH)?
I think that would solve the problem!

I'm 6'7", 300 pounds.

You sound like Jess Willard or even closer to Primo Canera

Jack Dempsey was about 185 pounds when he fought Willard and Baer was I think about 200 pounds when he fought the Italian.

In each case it was a fucking slaughter.

I just thought I would add this to the thread

Mike

195-220lbs is an optimum size for humans fighting and where the hardest punches are thrown.
The giants tend to 'push punch', which works well on the lower pro's, but doesn't get them through the tougher guys of the middle ranks.

When you have guys the size of jess Williard and todays 260 pounders like Lennox lewis at the top you know boxing is going through a definite slump.

That said, I'd probably try and avoid getting tackled or grabbed by someone Ngagi's size.
The optimum size for wrestling/neck breaking is "however big they want to be"

Karl.

[ 07-16-2003, 17:57: Message edited by: Karl ]

sheeesh karl I better put on some pounds!

SmallFry,

I am a Neurosurgeon, and was practicing in Florida (after residency) for 11 years.

Part of my training in Neurosurgery (from '84 to '87) was at Univ. of Miami.
At that time Maimi had the third largest population of HIV patients in the US (NY, San Fran, and then Miami).
During the initial outbreak of HIV, about 25 to 30% of (hospitalized) patients presented with intracranial lesions, ranging from PML to neurocystercircosis, and so at first we biopsied them all.
Now we often treat empirically for a suspected intracranial infection first, and then biopsy/resect if it fails medical treatment.
In Orlando I treated a large number of HIV positive patients simply due to referral patterns.
Many surgeons refuse to operate on HIV patients for elective conditions; I don't.

Hope that clears it up.

Garrett

Okay, N. Garrett, if, God forbid, I come down with AIDS and happen to need brain surgery, I just might give you a call.

But if I ever need any good advice about hunting dangerous game, please excuse me if I look elsewhere for it.

Jesus H Christ! Let's end this bullshit! He is an ELISTIST ASSHOLE that believes in his own high opinion of himself. I'm tired of all this FUCKING SHIT! SORRY LADIES

Nothing like DANGER than "opening day" of deer season (rifle) on public land!

I was sitting in a "blind" (stack of branches) on the "military crest" of a hill, opening day a few years back...the sun came up and just behind me (on the other side of the hill) BANG, BANG....BANGBANGBANG...I could hear the bullets over my head ZWEEET'ing...Geeze I was PISSED OFF! If you can't kill a deer with one shot from a modern firearm, then you don't belong in the woods hunting them. If I could have found that guy I would have shoved that rifle so far up his ass it would have taken a WEEK for the front sight to see daylight! Of course "discrection is the better part of valor" and I chose not to go over the hill to apply my boot to his ass! I figured an asshole like that had to have extra rounds and was re-loading for another "spray and pray" at the next deer to come by...

Mike R. in TN
(Old "one-shot")

Having buried over twenty of my men (Zimbabwe National Parks game scouts) over the years who were careless arround big game, I can most certainly testify that they are dangerous.

A good man with a rifle and decent ammunition has absolutely nothing to fear from an animal he can see - which is part of the reason you hunt with a PH/buddy. more eyes to watch for the unseen, and another rifle to be sure. Fatalities from elephants are inevitably caused by the one that came from behind and NOT the one being hunted. It is invarably dead or dying buffalo that are approached with a lack of caution and wisdom that get somebody. Lion kill and eat the staff at night, and I have never picked up a hunter or client who has recieved more than a good mauling from one. Ditto leopard.

The statistics for the Citizen hunting areas present a better statistic for unguided hunters. Fatalities are still low and are caused either by the overconfidencee of the experienced or the fear and foolishness of the young.

If you can shoot straight and have somebody watching your back you cannot get hurt in daylight on a hunt. Nighttime is a whole different bundle of fun and sweaty palms and dry mouth. Not hunting in any shape or form but the odds agains you go up dramatically.

Ganyana

Welcome to AR.

A question. You mention the danger increases a lot at night.

Why is this so? Is it because Leopard and Lion hunt at night, following up wounded game is so much more risky when you can't see, or increased chance of bumping into something ?

Thanks

Not to put words in Ganyana's mouth but I suspect he is referring to hunting PAC elephants at night. This is a decidedly dangerous pasttime, and not for me! They scare me enough as it is in daylight.

Combining this thread with something I read on CNN this morning, I'll just throw this out.

I think some people want to hunt the Big Five just to be able to attach themselves to something that is in the public perception, dangerous. I also think they want to have all the odds in their favor.

The article on CNN was about a gentlemen who deperately wanted the Medal of Honor. He was rejected twice. He ended up buying the second highest medal on the Internet, faked documents and had his congressman present the fraudulently obtained medal to him. Sadly, he was a decorated Vietnam veteran, but it wasn't enough for his ego.

(It always pisses me off when people pretend to have fought in Vietnam, when in fact they didn't.)

What does this have to do with DG hunting? Not sure, but I think that is how canned lion hunts come about, and why people shoot buffalo at 200 yards, and other acts of daring-do.

They want the accolades from their peers for having done something dangerous, whether it was or not.

My Big Five goes like this. Lion - too damn spooky for me. I'll pass. Leopard - too cool to shoot. Elephant - I'd rather shoot a fat lady in the ass. Rhino - Too few to hunt. Buffalo - Now that gets my heart pumping. I want one of them.

Will I shoot him at 20 or 200? Don't know. I promise you I won't force myself to get within 5 yards of him just to prove I'm a man, and if I shoot him at 250, I won't tell you it was 50.

I don't know why we waste time with people like, this he's convinced he's an expert at everything, not afraid of anything and no doubt has a bigger dick than the rest of us. He's full of shit and nothing but a wannabe, and I'll bet money any one of several hundred people on this board has killed more game than this dumb ass. Any individual that wants to talk about being a surgeon, etc as a justification for their intelligence just proves otherwise. If you are so gifted and such a superior hunter as the rest of us, you wouldn't have to open your mouth, we'd all know it.

I think the good doctor who started this thread has become a classic case of "I did it once, so now I know it all". Many years ago I was on my first deer hunt here in Pa. My cousin placed me in a tree stand before dawn, overlooking a well used trail. Ten minutes after sun up, a fat forked horn came walking down the trail and one shot later he was mine. My inexperienced conclusion was that deer hunting is easy, and I'll get one every year. Six years later I shot my second deer. Humble pie doesn't taste too good, but I ate the whole thing, and I'm a better person for it.

Elephant, lion or leopard at night are a good recepy for injury or death. You cannot see. Even with the best N.V.G's your view is far too narrow. Even with a red dot sight you cannot get the accurate shot placement required. and every little noise is magnified a thousand fold. The tendency towards tunnel vision is increased and so the danger of being taken from the flank or behing increases, but even when the attack comes from the front you are invarably looking too far ahead for that lion/leopard that is only 2-3 feet away when it charges. The new idea of blue gells on your torch so you can see the blood may help but still...

It is a fairly good indicator of the danger that only the boldest of PH's will follow a wounded leopard up at night. if it is dead or dying the hyaena will have destroyed the skin by morning but even so... You want that flack jacket, that cricket box the towls wrapped around the neck

Only hunting people who are hunting you at night has a greater fear effect.

I'll buy that 100%. Nice to have you aboard Ganyana.

I hunted with a PH that swore he would rather follow a wounded leopard at night than in daylight due to the fact that you could at least see the reflection of the leopards eyes from the spotlight.

More power to him!

Ganyana

Thanks for the answer.

The last line is very true.

Dude,
I can't wait.

Actually, I'm looking forward to that more than my bear hunting Maine in 4 weeks. Besides, I have to show you my Namibia pics and tell you all my lies.

This reminds me, I have to call Bill and make sure he has us down for that weekend. He never sent out the confirmation.

Mike,
Are those dangerous or non-dangerous buf?

Email me the details, 2005 might work out good for me.