"if ignorance is bliss, why is there not more happy people?"

Safari hunting in Africa is not as dangerous as it would otherwise be as you are usually required to have your hand held by a PH. Who is usually experienced to keep you out of trouble which is part of his job and future. For the industry's good as too many client deaths would be sure to impact on future sales and reputation (perhaps sales would actually increase !!!!).

If clients were allowed to go out and hunt by themselves especially dangerous game we would see the death and injury rate increase astronomically.

The most dangerous "game" to the PH in Africa is the same "Georgia" deerhunter (no offence to Georgian hunters meant) carrying a loaded rifle crawling behind him.

If you want a truly dangerous sport, try rabbit hunting the high grass in Australia on your lonesome. More deadly poisonous snakes than anywhere else in the world.

I've never been to Africa, hope to someday - this thread reminded me of several short videos in the past months, one of a handgun hunter going into a rock / cliff area after a cat of some type. As he rounds a corner to look for the cat, mr cat comes out and opens some major whoopass on that guy. Also, several months ago someone posted a video of about five men in a fairly open area going for (I believe) a wounded lion. The lion came out of some brush and nailed one guy, you could hear him yelling as the lion mauled him. One man finally shot the lion in the head to end that ordeal. That kind of "feeling", going into an area to sort out a wounded animal, is similar to going into the alders for a wounded bear, these types of hunts can max out the "sphincter" scale in a hurry. I'm with Ray on this one, cats are at the top of the list as far as "dangerous" goes. Going to Africa itself will be a thrill, hunting any of the Big Five would be icing on that cake. JMHO - KMule

It aint Disney Land out there where you can flip a switch and everything off. I personally have been in a couple dodgey spots, not my mind playing tricks either. Thats not why I hunt and try to avoid such events but things can go wrong fast no matter how careful you are.

Come to think of it this is a B.S. thread if there ever was one.

Ray,

You stated you have data that shows the number of people killed or injured hunting DG.

Not wanting to make you spend a lot of your time typing, what are the actual numbers?

If anyone else has this type of data, please shoot yours in.

The numbers would hopefully reflect only persons involved in DG hunting.

Total number of hunters pursuing DG.
Numbers of DG killed.
Numbers of hunters, PH's, or hunt help killed or injured.

This data shouldn't include numbers for hunters pursuing plains game.

Just curious, thanks.

Roger QSL

Dr. Garrett:

From Georgia DNR data:

"2000-2001: There had been two fatalities in 23 deer hunting accidents through Nov. 22 -- prior to 18-year-old Michael Stewart's death while hunting near Riceboro on Thanksgiving day. Tree stands played a role in 20 of those accidents."

I am going to call next week and try to get more recent statistics.

Thanks, Nitro.

Based on Garrett's first post, I was about to book a dangerous game hunt for that new Georgian subspecies of dangerous whitetail: Odocoileus georgianus terrificus.

I would have saved a lot of money over going to Africa, too. Damn.

What's all this about fat Georgia whitetail hunters shooting each other? The media would never fail to run a shooting during deer season as the top story. Yet a year can go by without a single report. The most typical hunting accident deaths are falling from treestands and ATV accidents. Neck and neck with accidents is heart attacks. A lot of guys who die hunting could just as easily died a month later shovelling snow in the driveway (good for them).

I won't deny (and am not exempt from) the fat-old-man hazards, but I feel much safer walking around the thick woods where there are wounded whitetails (and there will be) than around wounded buffalo and herds of anti-hunter cow elephants.

H. C.

Gentelmen, I have read all the posts up to now, and I think we have been a little hard on Garrett.
What I mean by this is, it is my opinin what he is trying to say is he did not experience the sense of danger that existed in his follow up of his buffalo that was definitely there, a fact that would have become very clear to him, had the tracker had not spotted the buff.

I can tell you, after some remembering, the first Cape Buffalo I shot was in the open, and standing almost faceing me at 50 yds. I was not nearvous, or concerned in any way. I was shooting a FN Mauser 375 H&H with 300 gr Nosler partitions, and fired one shot. He turned to run, with four other bulls behind him before I could work the bolt, so I was unable to shoot again. The follow up was not a concern to me, because I had a good PH who knew what he was doing. He explained to me we would wait, for a while, then circle down wind and come in to his track from that way. We did, but couldn't see him, so we retraced our tracks, and went in up wind, which was open, hopeing the Bull would show himself, when he got our scent. Before we got back to the spot where we were when the shot was made, we heard the death bellow. He was quite dead when we finally saw him. At no time did I get even excited! But I should have, because when we retraced HIS tracks, we found he had only gone about 30yds into the thick bush, and did a right hand "FISH HOOK" to come back and stand in tight bush about 5 feet off his back trail. If we had followed him dirrectly, we would have been within 8 feet of him by the time we could have seen him. Somebody would definitely been hurt, or killed.

I attribute this lack of concern, on my part, to two things. One, was the lack of experience with this type of game, and the openness of the terrain between me, and him, and the fact that he ran away, and Two, I was only in camp for three hours after traveling for four days, missing one plane after another, without much sleep, and suffereing from Jetlag. No1 was a little like the person rideing down the freeway every day to work, where he is in dire danger, but because he does it every day he has no real fear because of this danger. No2 was the part that is of most concern to me, because it made me think, Hell there is nothing to this Cape Buffalo hunting, and my 375 H&H will handle about anything.

I'm sorry for Garrett, because like me with my first Buff, he was cheated out of some of the thrill of hunting dangerous game, simply because, like me, he didn't reccognize the tension in the air that was for sure there, for the PH, and his tracker. I would like to hear about the first one he follows into the thorn, that doesn't stop with the first "charge stopping shot"from the rifle that is more than capable of stopping the charge, and he finds he hasn't time to work the bolt on that Remchester, before that buff gets to him, and the bull is pulled down by the PH! I think that post will be quite different than this one!

PS: As he said, I have talked to him on the phone about modifying a double for his for his first safari, about a year ago, that however doesn't mean he is legit, but I tend to think he is just "NEW"!

Roger,
My data is only certain events that I know of within my community of PH's and Safari Comapanies...

It has been about 2 or 3 deaths or serious injuries per year for the last 15 years, but that is just in Tanzania...Zim is a little behind that and RSA even less.

Last year a PH was killed in Tanz. by a Lion more or less, he was mauled and died on the operating table????...Year before the tourist was eaten by a Lion in Kruger while the PH (no rifle) beat the Lion with a shirt on fire, to no avail. Year before last two folks got downwind of elephants and got killed in the aftermath...that same year a PH was stomped to death by an elephant as he lead the heard away from his clients...Several trackers have been killed, and a Masai I know very well has only 1/2 his chest left on his body as he was being eaten by Lion while his cowardly PH hid under the Bakkie. Johan Calitz, the best of PH's, was brutally tossed and mauled and after two years is just now recovering, a lesser man would have died...I could write of these instances for hours non stop...I keep a mental log and little notes laying around for reminders as I need this knowledge in my business, nothing formal. It keeps my head where the sun shines when I hunt dangerous game...I don't count the number of events that I read about which are quite a few, just the ones that take place around me...I recall when Pano Callaverias got his hand nearly chewed off by a Lion, that would have killed a sane, intelligent man, unfortunatly Pano lived ..I remember when Ron Van Heerden was reported dead by magazines from a Lion, but he lived..Most of the PH with age have been mauled and some as many as 3 or 4 times...I have at least one charge a year, and sometimes 2 from my 7 day Buffalo hunters which is about 40 per year.

The whole point is it can and does happen and to say otherwise is just plain ignorant, and yes I am sure more folks are killed by vehicle accident, by homicide, by heart attacks, by a dozen other reason..What I don't see is what that has to do with this conversation...

The important thing about this conversation is because of ignorant people with limited esperience who attempt to pass themselves off as experts, is that it can put hunters with limited experience in harms way because they believe that tripe and become jack the dull hunter...and this is reinforced by a couple of uneventfull safaris...I have seen several such folks blowing in a brown bag...I have seen PH's do the same and they always get a wake up call sooner or later. Talk to the old timers and if they like you and respect you they will chill your doo doo....if they do not like you they will just put you off, and figure on doing what has to be done if you get in trouble. All in a days work.

And lets not forgot the Safari hunters who save the life of the PH, that happens also and again more often than one would think, mostly after the PH has sarificed his body to the hit..These guys, for the most part, are not caper milk toast types, they are brave men who risk their lives and love the hunt, give them credit..

Maybe the plane ride over is more dangerous, so what, still, you need to be carefull when you hunt dangerous game, be alert and have a great Safari. stupid thinking is your worst enemy.

Well said, Ray. And Mac, too.

Apples to oranges.

Garrett:

I have flown single-seat fighters off of aircraft carriers, been shot at with radar controlled weapons, had rockets tracking me, and hunted buffalo. I fail to see the difference. Just my opinion.

Oh, Yeah... I'm 50 #'s too heavy and, being a resident of Georgia, I go deer hunting there about 60 days a year. I guess I fit your syndrome. Poor pitiful me.

[ 07-13-2003, 23:01: Message edited by: JudgeG ]

What someone like Ray Atkinson only hints at and what any experienced hunter knows before he ever came to Africa is that hunting "dangerous game" can be like drawing lots in a game of chance. With no intent of telling "war stories" I know that hunting dangerous game can be just that, "dangerous". All of a sudden, with no warning whatever, the odds on the playing field shift. You suddenly realize that this beast is perfectly capable of killing you - and you realize that is exactly what he plans to do! That is when you experience what the Spaniards call "la hora de verdad" (the hour of truth) Either you kill this beast or he kills you. I was fortunate in one way to have experienced that feeling. Yes, I am sure that many "dangerous game" have been killed with no more difficulty than shooting a cow tethered to a stake but I would think that most of us go to Africa to hunt an animal on his own ground who is fully capable of killing us. The fact that he doesn't always succeed in doing so is no proof that hunting him is not dangerous.

I guess dr. Garrett got tired and went away. Anyway, I can't speak to African hunting, but did have one experience hunting black bear. I know black bear are only marginally likely to attack, an more likely to run away, but proudly admit that the pucker factor was quite high will sitting over a bait for him. One simply doesn't know how he or the animal that bites is going to act when confronted. That, to my mind is the attraction of dangerous game hunting. I don't think any sane person wants to actually be attacked, but the hunting of something that can hunt you is attractive. I don't see that as melodramatic at all.

Nope, Garret is over on HA spewing his BS about how sectional density has nothing to do with a good DG bullet and how he shoots Buffalo with a 404 driving Hawk SP bullets at 2500 FPS, a recipe for disaster I will add.....The more he talks the more he exposes himself as a non credible source of information....Has good taste in calibers however

Interesting post and replies, to say the least. I will first qualify my statements with the fact I have never been to Africa. God willing, I will in the next year or so. At this point, the most dangerous game I have been around is my wife when I tried to sneak a new rifle into the house. So, if extensive experience in Africa is your personal prerequisite to reading a post on this forum, you may want to stop now. I readily admit only book knowledge. Usually, I am more of the question asker type than statement maker on these forums.

First, I know Garrett personally. He is no anti and he is no troll. Second, we discussed his posting this topic the other morning before he did, and I urged him to post, well knowing it would generate heated responses. At least it will be more interesting than yet another thread such as �Is caliber �x� sufficient for plains game?� Or the endless CRF vs push feed debate.

I have been a bit taken aback by the personal attacks such as troll, wannabe, etc. And �Axel� wow, that WAS an insult I reviewed the thread yet again, and of the 50+ responses, most were attempts to personally discredit him and not logically refute anything he had stated. Those that disagreed with him more often than not started spouting off about the danger of a wounded buffalo, which was never mentioned in the original post. The most reasonable rejections of his presumption were based on his supposed comparing two dissimilar things.

I think the gist of his post is that hunting of dangerous game in Africa is not the immediate life or death melodramatic proposition that many make it out to be. He never stated that buffalo, elephant, lion, etc aren�t dangerous animals or that they don�t have the ability to maim and kill when healthy, let alone after being wounded. Yet some implied that he did. He stated that HUNTING the Big Five is not as dangerous as many suggest, and maybe, just maybe, going after Mr. Whitetail is more likely to have you pushing up daisies than a hunt for M�bogo or Simba. Also, his comments were limited to clients, not Professional Hunters, so any reference to PH�s and the danger they may find themselves in is not relevant to this discussion. In fact, most

I don't completely buy�you�re comparing apples to oranges� statements. We are trying to compare the risk of death for a given activity. One reason I choose not to ride a motorcycle to work is because I believe the risk of a fatal accident is greater while riding a motorcycle than driving my truck. True, looking back only tells us what DID happen, not what will, but still you can learn valuable lessons. In 1997, 5 hunters died in Alaska in firearm related hunting accidents, out of 93,000 licensed hunters. I can now say a licensed hunter, in Alaska, in 1997, had a 1 in 18,600 chance of being killed by a firearm while hunting there. In Texas, in 2000, there were 8 hunters killed by firearms for 1.1 million licensed hunters. I can say in 2000, a licensed hunter, in Texas, had a 1 in 137,000 chance of being killed. Thus I can assume that hunting in Texas is safer than hunting in Alaska. But you have to realize the limitations. You would need to look a as many years as you have data so you can make more valid assumptions. Similarly, if I knew the number of hunters in Africa each year that had one of the big five on the menu and knew how many were killed while hunting them, I could calculate the chances in a given year of a client being killed by a buffalo or whatever. With the right data, I could quote all sorts of chances of this or that happening. And then I could compare. Not predict, but compare. The ultimate end of getting tossed and gored in the middle of Africa by a gut shot Cape Buffalo vs falling out of a tree stand in Georgia or anywhere that matter and lying there, alone, conscious, unable to move, unable to breathe because of your broken neck is the same. You�re dead. Neither method sounds very appealing to me.

The point I believe he tried to make is this:

number of hunters killed in Africa after dangerous game
_________________________________________ = not as many as you�d think!
number of hunters in Africa after dangerous game

and that

number of hunters killed in Georgia after deer
_________________________________________ = more than you realize!
number of hunters in Georgia after deer

The faults I can see in his argument are first, that his Georgia reference was off the cuff and not meant literally. He should have done a little searching and got some numbers. Second, he should have done a little research on the number of buffalo permits in Zimbabwe, for example and tried to search SCI or the Hunting Report for cases of clients dying while hunting for buffalo. Third, the fat reference just unnecessarily threw in a little emotion into the debate. The original post was probably a bit too provocative, but it sure has been more interesting than �Are Partitions any good?� threads.

Ray or anyone else. I know you dont have the exact numbers, but any guesses for any particular country or area?? How many buffalo permits or lion or other dangerous game are available in a given year for any country? How many of these are sold? How many hunters die on their safari for dangerous game? How many shots are screwed up and result in the PH tracking a wounded buffalo or lion or leopard?

I am ready to learn and welcome and would appreciate criticism of my arguments, but please, do me a favor and take the time to criticize intelligently, and if the best is you can do is �newbie, or wannabe�....oh well never mind.

Duckear

Dr Garret posted this topic knowing fully well it was the equivalent of dropping a turd in the punchbowl. To pretend that he's surprised and indignant about the responses it generated is absolutly ridiculous. If he wants to trivialize and heap scorn upon what is the major driving passion for a number of gentlemen on this board whose experience and wisdom far surpass his, then that is his perogative. But when those same gentlemen run his ignorance up the flagpole for all the world to see, then he's reaping the rewards of his ill conceived actions.

Respectfully Yours

Elmo

P.S.
By the way, is he a Proctologist?

Duckear

I guess you are taking N. Garretts place on this thread so I will ask you to explain his quote:

quote:

---

I was careful tracking my wounded buffalo, but I also knew that the rifle I was carrying was more than adequate to stop it even at close range.

---

There is no such rifle. If there was a rifle that was "more than adequate to stop it even at close range" then is it not fair to reason this rifle would also be more than adequate to stop the animal with the first shot? If the rifle could stop it with the first shot why would he need to track it?

I could care less weather or not N. Garrett thinks the act of hunting "dangerous game" is dangerous. What does bother me is the fact that he resorts to the "troll"ish tactic of arguing in bad faith for the purpose of stirring the pot.

Jason

[ 07-14-2003, 13:03: Message edited by: J Brown ]

One point to ponder:

Selling hunts based on danger will sell hunts to people who are looking for just that type of activity. A salesman might overstate the dangers of hunting in order to sell a hunt to the client who is shopping for danger. The same client may have passed over the exact same hunt if he was told that it is perfectly safe out there by a different salesman.

My point here is that the same hunt can be sold as dangerous or safe. Its all bunch of words making this a B.S. thead. What happens out there happens.

People tend to make things the way they want them to be. Whats dangerous to one man is childs play to the man with a big ego. If somebody thinks that a pissed off elephant isnt dangerous thats fine with me its his opinion.

This thread is just a bunch of opinions on 2 sides of a fence. One side speaks from experience and practicality while the other just has some ego thing going. Again its a B.S. thread.

[ 07-14-2003, 13:35: Message edited by: LV Eric ]

N. Garretts

Please don't spoil the fun, most people here are gun freaks, I sertainly am. What are we supposes to tell our wifes and girlfriend when we buy a double rifle in a classic bigbore, that "we could have used out deer rifle but I like this one better"? Or "my life depends on this rifle when I'm going lion hunting this summer?"

What do you think works best?

Also if you replased all the deer shot with lions, don't you think there would be more people killed?

Most DG have the sice and capability to kill you. Normal game like deer and moose also have some capability if you get into the right situation, but it defies reason to say that DG isn't dangerus at all. That the number of people killed is vey small doesn't mean it isn't dangerus. My heart would beat a bit faster tracking a woulded lepard that a wounded grouse!

Johan

By the way I think this is a good tread that have potensial give some good reading and discution if just people could argue without getting so darn angry and taking everyting personal!

Give us some good DG stories insted of flaming N. Garrett!

Johan

Statistics are not very revelant to some one who is being chewed, tossed, or gored.
Even if he is one in a million.

My question is this: I'm going on my first African hunt in a few weeks and I'm in pretty good physical shape. Do I have to get "fat" to be a successful hunter in Africa? I don't know if I have time to put on that much weight in a month...not to mention I'd have to get new clothes.

Duckman,
He may be the best guy in the world, but he comes across to me as counterfiet, he has made some posts on HA that don't fit the bill and his post here was inflamatory and ignorant from the beginning but more than that they were misleading and irresponsible...He is a man of little experience and has been to Africa only a few times and now considers himself an expert and he doesn't know come here form sick'um in my opinnion....

As far as furnishing him any data, I think not as he would misuse it to bolster his presence...I am sorry that you encouraged him to post such tripe, why you did that I don't know, like you say, you have not been to Africa..

I have had my say and I hold no hard feeling to him or anyone else, but I suggest that if he is surprised he should keep his foot out of his mouth.

Garrett, and Duckear are both missing something here. They both only consider things dangerous if the activity "KILLS" people. What about all the, mostly unreproted, people in Africa that are, wounded and cripeled, blinded and loose feet, hands, or become quaroplegics every year by the members of the big five, and many killed outright by the other two, the croc, and Hippo. I submit if these animals are dangerous to anyone, then what makes them not dangerous to clients? It is not neseccarily the activity that makes these animals dangerous,but their temprement, and tenacity of life that makes them dangerous to man, ANY MAN, not just PHs or trackers. The fact that a client hunter like Mr. Garrett isn't aware of the fact, changes nothing, in the mind of a Lion,ELE, or Buffalo, that he has just stung his butt with that "PERFECTLY ADEQUATE" rifle, that wounded him instead of putting him down.

Duckear stated that the first post did not mention the wounded buffalo, but I think he needs to read for comprehension. He did describe his own tracking of his own wounded Buffalo! A buffalo that might have changed Mr. Garrett's mind, if the tracker had not spotted him off the trak side, in time.

Nither of these guys arguments hold water. They simply are so tied up in stats that they don't see the real world, where shit happens. I predict, Mr. Garrett is in for some awakening, one day, when one of those statistics sticks a horn up his butt, then does the tango! You see lion, and Buffalo are not empressed by arrogance!

Whatever the numbers are, I think that any lack of fatalities is less a result of the "safety" of hunting the Big Five, and more of a testament to the skill and professionalism of PHs and staff.

Would you still hold your position if I would heli-drop you, without a PH (and without his almighty fire-spiting stick) in Selous with only a bow and two arrows?



That's why I (personally) call it DG.

Anyone care to spend some time in an African Hospital? In say, Botswana?

Getting a blood tranfusion after flipping the Toyota in a warthog hole?

How about going for a walk to the ATM in Jo-Berg at say, midnight?

The whole game changes when you step foot on that continent, and it starts way down on the food chain, with strange viruses, and goes all the way up to being pulerized by an an angry cow elephant.

You would think and MD would at least recognize those risks...

Duckear,
If you really want to carry this "apples to oranges" comparison to its logical conclusion after your friend, Dr. Garrett seemed to drop it...here goes:

A 50 Year Statistical Comparison

Number of hunters killed
BY the DG of Africa since 1953
______________________________ = X%

Number of hunters hunting DG in
Africa since 1953

VS.

Number of WT deer hunters killed BY
whitetail deer in North America
since 1953
________________________________ = X%

Number of hunters hunting WT deer
in North America since 1953

Now this is a true comparison of the which of the two, whitetail deer or the dangerous game of Africa is more likely to kill you.
We have eliminated all of the heart attacks fat men suffer, falling out of stands, accidental shootings etc. and concentrated on why the large subungulates and carnivores of Africa are considered dangerous game. You shoot them badly or surprise them or just generally piss them off and they will KILL you. Do the same to a whitetail and they won't. Trust me I've killed a boxcar full of whitetail deer! Now we have eliminated most variables, set a long period to allay any concerns over statistical anomalies and guess what the conclusion is?
I know, I know, people who stand in the highway facing oncoming 18 wheelers wearing nothing but a smile and people that skydive without parachutes still have a higher percentage fatalities!

Gentlemen,

Sorry it took so long to reply...I had the weekend "off-call" from the hospital and I just sort of goofed off all weekend.

I am reminded of the expression: "A hit dog yelps".

My point remains that for the huge majority of tourist hunters in Africa the risk of serious injury or death is quite small...say one in ten-thousand (and I use the term tourist hunter to mean non-professional/non-native hunter).

If you have ever been to an SCI meeting, you will be regaled by stories of "and there I was, face to face with the wounded lion...and I had one bullet left!"
The stories sound trite and melodramatic to me, especially having been there.
And curiously enough, all these hunters that "almosted tasted death" weren't mauled or killed.

My friends who have died participating in sports they loved never boasted about them...they didn't bring up how high they climbed or how deep they dove underwater.
I doubt they would get in a flame war about heli-ox mixtures, but they would probably ask someone "why are you doing it that way?", and listen, and then disagree or not.

I think Atkinson's post summed it up..he said:
"I'd like to see your balls bulging out under your ears"...refering to hunting lion.

Some how this seems to be about manhood, and my writing that African hunting isn't all that dangerous was somehow construed as a threat to that, ergo the personal attacks.

All of us know that a large, wounded animal with big teeth, horns, or tusks is dangerous.
That is why is why we are carrying the rifles we choose.
And to the canard that no rifle can ever be adequate, since a shot may fail us in a critical moment, that is why the PH is there.
And if the PH is unable to back us up, well, maybe then you are injured or die.
Which happens infrequently to tourist hunters (my original point).

Maybe the same things don't scare me that do some of the hunters on this board.

N'gagi made the point about risks in sub-Saharan hospitals from HIV/AIDS.
I think I do know about those risks since I have operated a few hundred patients with HIV.
One of the sadest stories I know of was a US med student who was in a bus accident in Uganda in '85 or '86. A woman who was HIV positive dripped blood on his lacerated arm, and he became infected. He told me the thing that made him most depressed was never being able to be intimate with a woman again, from fear of infecting her. He said he could handle the dying part...and he did. (He wasn't a hunter by the way)

As to Atkinson's "synopsis" about my post on Sectional Density...I'll offer it again here to clear it up.
Sectional Density by itself cannot predict whether a bullet will penetrate deeper or not...more important is how the bullet is constructed.
If you don't believe, try this experiment: shoot a 168 grain 30 cal. Sierra Matchking bullet (SD .253) into something firm, like wet newspapers.
Shoot a Barnes 165 grain 30 cal. solid (SD .248)into the same something at the same velocity.
Which penetrates deeper?
The solid does...with a lower SD.

(I offered that as a rebuttal to Atkinson, I suggest we move the SD discussion to another forum for the sake of space).

Cold Bore, I loved your comment on my experience being more "book knowledge". I would never accuse you of reading those.

I'll have to remember your advice next time I am removing an intracranial tumor: "Good news Mrs. Jones, I haven't read a book on this procedure in years! It's all my personal experience...."

Garrett

I don't know who he is but if starts talking about a hunt in the rain forest,especially in an area that has no logging roads, he will find out what kind of shape he is in. A true walking safari in the rain forest will make him pray for an air conditioner or a helicopter to come and get him.

Mike

Man, oh man. Talk about listening but not hearing! Might as well unravel this thread right here and now. I vote dead.

I'm with mrlexma, this thread is dead.

Regards,

Terry

Garret:

I'm so sorry that I forgot you were a doctor. Of course you know better than Ray, someone who has killed dozens of buffalo... or Selous or J.A. Hunter or historians like Bartle Bull.

Man, I'm glad you don't let the "God" syndrome shows its ugly face!

I'll bet you could be an "expert" pilot in 40 hours, know more than any CPA by instinct and fish better than Hemingway, too.

I will say this:
I've been in some situations where I rightfully was scared, absolutely ready to crap my britches. But... I don't think it was anywhere near as scared as I'd be having a blissfully ignorant know-it-all boob next to me buffalo hunting... or maybe even deer hunting in jolly ol' Georgia.

Now pat yourself on the back and go destroy the jury system or something else you know nothing about. I'm sure you know MUCH more than your peers... but "regular" folks aren't your peers, are they?

And to most of you doctors out there... Don't these know-it-alls give you folks a bad name? Kinda like those jokers who advertise for fender benders on T.V. ruin the legal profession. Don't even get me started on the McDonald's "fat-burger" suits.

[ 07-15-2003, 16:06: Message edited by: JudgeG ]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by N. Garrett:
[QB]Gentlemen,

Sorry it took so long to reply...I had the weekend "off-call" from the hospital and I just sort of goofed off all weekend.

How personable.

I am reminded of the expression: "A hit dog yelps".

Joining two sayings then
"An empty vessel makes more noise than a yelping dog" , is more appropriate- if you will allow me.

My point remains that for the huge majority of tourist hunters in Africa the risk of serious injury or death is quite small...say one in ten-thousand (and I use the term tourist hunter to mean non-professional/non-native hunter).

The risk of me dieing on operations is also quite small, however one must take into context the level of professionalism any specialist maintains.As you would know. The risks may be very great, but overshadowed by the level of expertise.Should we be persecuted for a little indulgence in our professional pride. Does even a steadfast doctor like yourself never provide a fact or figure or story to validate your own ability.

Let us see...

My friends who have died participating in sports they loved never boasted about them

Hmmm..Alas one of the downsides of death is limited abilities to brag, albiet communicate in any fashion with the living, as a doctor should be aware.

...they didn't bring up how high they climbed or how deep they dove underwater.

As a state level boxer/wrestler and hunter and military person I seem to have the bad luck then to be surrounded by people who feel quite comfortable discussing precisely how deep they went, how long they stood,how fast they went how and how much they lifted with their fellows.

The concept,( considered foriegn to those who may have problems fitting in- shall we say, suffer some form or another of an ostracism complex), is generally accepted as "communication or intelligent conversation amongst peers"

Remarkable no?

I doubt they would get in a flame war about heli-ox mixtures, but they would probably ask someone "why are you doing it that way?", and listen, and then disagree or not.

Their time would probably be taken up in flame wars with drifting wannabes.Curse them Doctor! How do we address these pathetic excuses for human beings?

Some how this seems to be about manhood, and my writing that African hunting isn't all that dangerous was somehow construed as a threat to that, ergo the personal attacks.

Somehow this seems to be about manhood? Thank god for that. Here's me thinking we hunt animals to cure fucking cancer.Glad you cleared ThAT one up doctor.

Maybe the same things don't scare me that do some of the hunters on this board.

I would say the fear of ostracism and attatchment failure are indeed two possible invulnerabilities you possess, no doubt learned from harsh social lessons.

I think I do know about those risks since I have operated a few hundred patients with HIV.

Doctor you must be careful you do not die from this.
Otherwise it will have occurred that you made a quantitative statement of an acheivement or occurence to do with your profession, thus labelling you with those undesirables who brag about 'how high they climbed' or 'how deep they dove'and then died.

Pray you stay alive rather than join your late friends who never mentioned 'how deep they dove'
or 'how many aids patients they operated on' and dissappoint them posthumously with your earlier lapse into braggadocio.

"One of the sadest stories I know of was a US med student who was in a bus accident in Uganda in '85 or '86. A woman who was HIV positive dripped blood on his lacerated arm, and he became infected. He told me the thing that made him most depressed was never being able to be intimate with a woman again, from fear of infecting her. He said he could handle the dying part...and he did. (He wasn't a hunter by the way)

Thank god for that. Please keep us posted on his families well being and every thing you do to help them out. This is what an AFRICAN GAME FORUM is for after all.


Cold Bore, I loved your comment on my experience being more "book knowledge". I would never accuse you of reading those.

And coldbore would similarly never accuse you of actually absorbing any information presented in any fashion.

I'll have to remember your advice next time I am removing an intracranial tumor: "Good news Mrs. Jones, I haven't read a book on this procedure in years! It's all my personal experience...."

And Mrs Jones will no doubt reply, as she ALWAYS does..
"Yeah okay Bob , its Doctor Jones, not Mrs Jones. Now put down the spoon its time for your lithium"

karl.