If you have never read African Game Trails by Teddy Roosevelt you should.It was a grand Safari almost a year long.I think it took 125 wagons for all there stuff.Teddy drove Winchester about nuts with all the gun and ammo orders.I still want a 405 winchester because of this book.I dont think there were any or many safaris which killed this many animals on one trip.I am fixing to reread it again.

TR's African and South American hunts with Kermit were amazing. The boat ride to Afica took more days than a trip today takes hours in a plane. TR nearly died on the South American Expedition.

As Bill Quimby has mentioned on another forum, Kermit's and TR jr.'s trip by horseback over the Himalayas to Mongolia to hunt Marco Polo/Karelini sheep was one of the greatest adventures described by modern man (East of the Sun, and West of the Moon).

The things Theodore accomplished in his life amaze me. He is my hero!

My step-grandmother gave me an old leatherbound copy when I was 8 (probably just to keep me out from underfoot because I don't think it was because she liked me). I read it over and over. I've still got the remnants of that book and a more readable copy. It started my interest in hunting Africa.

He's my second favorite US President! That's after Obama of course!

Yes, after the East Africa hunt, he shot his way up the White Nile, stopping near present-day Malakal in March 1910 to visit the U.S. Presbyterian Mission. He and Kermit continued on to Khartoum where Edith met them.

They toured the battlefield at Kerreri, north of Omdurman where Kitchener had destroyed the Mahdi's empire in 1898, revenging Britain for the death of Charles "Chinese" Gordon at the Mahdi's hands in 1895.

Regards

Wish I had been with them....

Teddy and co I mean, not Chinese Gordon and co!!

I'll be in TZ for 3 weeks in October. I have a 103 year old 500/450 and am debating whether to take it along.

JohnDL,

It would already be there waiting for me!

Brett

It would seem like a "no-brainer", but I'm not sure that I want to risk it on airline. I may do it. I am debating between bringing it or a 475 Jeffery that I just got from Champlins (still listed on their website). I'll be happy either way.

I dont even take my pre64 winchesters on the airlines. Wouldnt take anything I couldnt replace with the insurance money.

quote:

Originally posted by Tim Carney:
Yes, after the East Africa hunt, he shot his way up the White Nile, stopping near present-day Malakal in March 1910 to visit the U.S. Presbyterian Mission. He and Kermit continued on to Khartoum where Edith met them.

They toured the battlefield at Kerreri, north of Omdurman where Kitchener had destroyed the Mahdi's empire in 1898, revenging Britain for the death of Charles "Chinese" Gordon at the Mahdi's hands in 1895.

Regards

Neat. I've been to Malakal on a relief flight. Wasn't as much fun for me as TR.

African Game Trails is one of my favorties.

JohnDL,

I take that back. The 475 would already be there waiting for me!

Sir, that is one beautiful rifle.

I had mixed feelings about TR's exploits. He missed/wounded a lot of animals. And they shot way more game than good hunting ethics would allow. The tally is in the back of the book. I remember in particular wondering why they felt compelled to shoot that many rhino. I think it was 13 or 19. And the Museum of Natl History angle seemed a little, how shall we say, sleazy? A little like White Water/Clinton affair, i.e. using your political rank to get someone else to pay for your pleasures.

I am reading African Game Trails right now! I really like TR...one does have to take in to consideration the times he lived in.

I was recently fortunate enough to find a first edition copy of African Game Trails in a local book shop- it even smells like 1910! That book, a good glass of bourbon, and a warm fire lets your mind wander for an evening.

quote:

Originally posted by JohnDL:
Brett

It would seem like a "no-brainer", but I'm not sure that I want to risk it on airline. I may do it. I am debating between bringing it or a 475 Jeffery that I just got from Champlins (still listed on their website). I'll be happy either way.

Yo have a very tough decision to make ! Good luck on your safari !

Their large take of game was somewhat influenced by the very large number of porters requiring several lbs of fresh meat each per day.

Teddy Roosevelt loved the new Springfield 30-06,the 405 winchester in the 1895 and his big double rifle.I dought a safari like his will ever be repeated.The rhinos were pest back then and kept attacking them unlike the park ones people shoot today.It was all wild no fences and canibals that would eat all the meat off of your bones real Africa.I think that not many other Safaris before them even came close either.His eye site was poor but he didnt give up easy.African Game trails is an awesome book if you have not read it you should.I still need a 405 in a 1895 because of this book.He had his life long dream come true and gave up being president to go on this Safari.

A few thoughts on African Game Trails:

DGR416-I'd advise you to shoot a 405 Winchester before you buy one. It has a lot of drop at the heal of the stock, and it makes it a mean kicking SOB with a bunch of muzzle jump.

Teddy and Co. had a bunch of mouths to feed, and he was collecting specimens for the NY Museum of Natural History. The number of auxiliary personnel that was required for a safari of that scope is staggering. It took many animals per day to keep it going. It's hard to imagine that the land was so rich with game that it could support such an entourage.

Roosevelt's bongo were displayed for years in a fantastic diorama at the NYMNH. Seeing that fueled my dreams of hunting bongo, and having it done in a full mount. Sadly, I hear that all of Roosevelt's stuff, including the bongo have been taken down. I did finally get a bongo and had it full mounted. Magnificent!

I find Roosevelt's Edwardian Era writing a bit slow at times. Maybe he should have brought Bill Quimby along?

As one approaches and/or passes 50 years of age, a century ago doesn't seem as ancient as it once did. My how Africa has changed in one hundred years! I am glad people like Roosevelt were able to do what they did, and write about for our enjoyment.

450/400 Jeffrey's
TR's 95 was "stocked and sighted to suit myself" As they certainly need to be as the drop is excessive and the pull way to short.

TR's 1895 is (or was) on display at the firearms museum in Cody, Wyoming. Really neat to see the whole museum, let alone THE .405 win he called the 'Medicine Gun'. FYI, Papa Hemingways Westley Richards .577 is on display at the Curry Mansion, in Key West. If youre there its worth gawking at!

I shot a friends 405 its a big pussy cat.It is very easy to shoot.I can shoot 150 416 rem mag rounds in a day.I shot the 405 winchester in a 1895 the same day i shot my 416 rem mag.It was nothing.It did have a recoil pad instead of the steel butt plate.I did shoot the same friends 470 Capstick now it was not fun to shoot but yep I wanted one.I learned how to shoot a standing bench from reading Elmer keith.The 405 in the 1895 winchester is a smooth lever gun in my book.I think I would most likely choose my 416 rem mag over a 405 for lion though.Its just the gun and cartridge and its history with Teddy Roosevelt.He gave winchester a time getting the stock right for him.With a good pad I could shoot the 405 all day long.

I want one too. Mine will have to be restocked if I can't get a pad thick enough. Drop excessive, but I can live with it. 405 probably not recommended for lion, but in the unlikely event I ever go lion hunting I might take one along just in case.

quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:
I had mixed feelings about TR's exploits. He missed/wounded a lot of animals. And they shot way more game than good hunting ethics would allow. The tally is in the back of the book. I remember in particular wondering why they felt compelled to shoot that many rhino. I think it was 13 or 19. And the Museum of Natl History angle seemed a little, how shall we say, sleazy? A little like White Water/Clinton affair, i.e. using your political rank to get someone else to pay for your pleasures.

Russ: we certainly value your opinion, but don't you think it's a little bit harsh comparing Roosevelt's hunting trip to "sleazy" antics of Bill Clinton??? True, by our standards a lot of game was shot. But remember: the main purpose was to collect rare specimens for museums. I beleive the "extra" animals went not only to The American Museum, but to educational museums such as Chicago's Field Museum of Natural History, and others. In fact, when I visited the SCI HQ Museum in Tucson ten years ago, even they had a mount of a Rhino that TR shot. Seeing that rhino was the absolute highlight of my trip to AZ!! As rhinos were not really endangered in 1909, I'm sure glad he had the forsight to collect more than one!

As there was no Discovery channels, or Animal Planets back then, (even zoos were missing many of these animals from their displays); people had only the slightest ideas about Africa and its wildlife. So when these animals were expertly mounted by Carl Akeley & James L. Cark, and put into natural looking habitat dioramas (not just animals were collected...but photographs of Africa and botanical specimens of trees, leaves, grass etc); it was the first chance for many Americans to see these African animals up close and in the flesh.

TR had a lot of balls doing what he did. He took a lot of flack from bambi huggers (yep, even 100 years ago!) and was ridiculed in the press with embarassing cartoons, etc.

Many people on AR say reading Capstick was what got them to go safari hunting in Africa. Well, TR pretty much did the same 100 years ago, but on a much grander scale: stirring the imaginations of thousands of Americans, through his book African Game Trails, as well as the museum dioramas which brought a piece of the unknown "Dark Continent" back to American cities. After his return to the states, the East African safari bookings really took off for the White hunters. Since 1909, that interest in safari hunting has never stopped for Americans. Yes, we in the safari business owe a lot to "Bwana Tumbo"!

It is pointless to apply todays mores to a hundred years ago. Omdurman was only 15 years before TR arrived. Modern notions of conservation were completely unknown then. TR was instrumental in bringing about major changes in man's attitude toward nature.

Read it on a cruise a few years ago. Good book.

I agree with early comments. Hunting ethics are fluid with the times.

If I could dial back the clock, I would smack as many black rhinos and tigers as I could afford.

"In fact, when I visited the SCI HQ Museum in Tucson ten years ago, even they had a mount of a Rhino that TR shot. Seeing that rhino was the absolute highlight of my trip to AZ!!"

Tanz-Ph:

The TR rhino head at SCI's International Wildlife Museum in Tucson is just one of the many heads the club received from the New York Zoological Society’s National Collection of Heads and Horns at the Bronx Zoo soon after the SCI museum opened.

Although they are poorly displayed in Tucson, there also are antlers from every major deer species of Asia and the South Pacific (including Bukharan, Yarkand, Hangul, Tibetan, Shou, McNeill, Gansu, rusa, barasingha, and white-lipped deer) as well as many rare Asian oxen and wild sheep, and African antelope including giant sable, all taken prior to 1922 when the collection was assembled by William T. Hornaday.

The collection was split up, and the North American animals went to another museum. I may be wrong, but I think it was the Buffalo Bill Museum in Wyoming. Everything else went to SCI.

According to a New York Times article about the opening of the collection in 1922, the hunters who contributed to the original collection also included F.C. Selous (a Sardinian mouflon) and many of the world’s best known trophy hunters of the time.

Bill Quimby

Interesting trivia fact:
Question: Who loaded the cartridges for TR & Kermit for their safari?



Answer: Alfred Nobel...(makes a lot of sense when you think about it.)

Maybe it's just me, and correct me if I am wrong, but this year-long safari was paid for by "others" including the Museum of Natural History. Even the guns were gifts. I take a dim view of politicians getting something for nothing, just because they hold/held public office. As in the Senator from Alaska's home renovations, Chris Dodd's sweetheart mortgage, Hilary Clinton's Whitewater sweetheart deals, ad infinitum.

That doesn't take away from what TR did (in the USA) for conservation. I don't think he did a damned thing for conservation in Africa though. Most of the countries he hunted have been a conservation disaster. The modern paying sportsman and his dollars/pounds/euros, plus the colonial powers' creation of the national parks and safari areas, were/are the main conservation forces in Africa. You could argue that TR's book created interest in paid safaris but I think Ruark and Capstick probably outsold him 1000 to 1.

I also ready Theodore Roosevelt an Outdoorsman by R.L.Wilson.It goes into his guns and preparing for his great Safari.I have all of Teddy Roosevelt's Books but African Game Trails is by far one of my favorite Safari Books of all times.Its unheard of these days the number of Animals he and Kermit bagged but they gave it all they had and more.It was wild and Free Africa back then no fences.I am glad he got to go on his long Safari and tell get so many people interested in Africa.His ideas aboout Game and Land Conservation are still today the foundation of all the Big Game that is left to hunt.Even Teddy Roosevelt missed the great Bison hunts of the West.They were gone before he got to hunt and see them.This is what started him into saving the land and the animals he loved.

Russ,
In 1909, this was a very long and very dangerous trip, it can't be thought of as a vacation.

Russ Gould- I do believe you are confusing todays money scandals with the respect paid to a former head of state (TR went off to Africa after his presidential term was over). As an ex-president, his ability to perform the political favors was at least diminished, and I for one believe the expedition was exactly as stated: a safari whose goal was to collect specimens for the various museums. IMHO, he was a conservationist, first and foremost, and largely responsible for the conservation maodels anyone uses today.

quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:
Maybe it's just me, and correct me if I am wrong, but this year-long safari was paid for by "others" including the Museum of Natural History. Even the guns were gifts. I take a dim view of politicians getting something for nothing, just because they hold/held public office. As in the Senator from Alaska's home renovations, Chris Dodd's sweetheart mortgage, Hilary Clinton's Whitewater sweetheart deals, ad infinitum.

That doesn't take away from what TR did (in the USA) for conservation. I don't think he did a damned thing for conservation in Africa though. Most of the countries he hunted have been a conservation disaster. The modern paying sportsman and his dollars/pounds/euros, plus the colonial powers' creation of the national parks and safari areas, were/are the main conservation forces in Africa. You could argue that TR's book created interest in paid safaris but I think Ruark and Capstick probably outsold him 1000 to 1.

Russ Gould:

The cost of TR 1909 Expedition was:

US $50,000 From The Smithsonian Museum appeal

US $25,000 Out of Teddy's own pocket

US $25,000 From Philanthropist Andrew Carnegie

Total: $100,000. (today's equivalent over 1.8 million).

The expedition was not just a shooting for pleasure trip & collecting animals for taxidermy. It had genuine scientific value. example: There were two Zoologist along: Heller & Loring.

It took 30 long days traveling by rough seas just to get from NY to East africa! So, why not shoot many animals while there? Don't forget: this was a 2x1 hunt, and bag limits were very liberal for all hunters going there in those days...not just for TR.