On ,number 3 ,2007 of AFRICAN HUNTER ,our expert GANYANA,wrote an excellent article ,about using shotguns on leopards ,recomending buckshot first slug second ,althoug he prefers a rifle ,fast handling rifle . Craig Boddington is totally against shotgun on leopards ,but after killing NOT ONLY HUNTING BUT KILLING INJURED PUMAS ,i never experienced any trouble using buckshot ,i used a REMINGTON 870,MOSSBERG 590SPS-YOU CAN PUT A BAYONET IN THIS LIKE YOUR GRANDAD LIKES-and some doubles.I supouse the leopard is harder to put down but if you dont have your fal ,or express would you use your shotgun ....Juan

Of all Ph's injured 80% from leopards...A shotgun with slugs would be devistating in my opinion...For buck shot some of the hardened nickel coated shot would have very good penetration... However I would prefer a 45cal big bullet...


Mike

I viewed a video of a group of Zimbabwe PH's analyzing the merits of the shotgun for Leopard backup. These were all well known Ph's and the discussion was led by Lou Hallamore I believe. If I remember correctly their concensus was it was NOT the preferred weapon. I have a PH friend in Zimbabwe who swears by the shotgun. He uses a Berreta automatic with a short barrel I cut off for him. I had to open the ports to allow the shorter barrel to cycle with the 3" Nickel plated Buckshot he uses. I did kill one Leopard with this combo and will have to admit it was effective. I would prefer my FAL myself but think one of the old Ruger 44mag auto carbines would be excellant with hard cast full loads. I don't feel uncomfortable with the shotgun though.

This is one of those subjects that you hear a lot of back and forth about around the campfire. Personally, I have no experience with it myself but I think you would find that most people would say that if they KNEW the hit could be placed on a leopard that they would prefer a heavy caliber bullet. It just has more momentum but a big ball of shot does awesome damage too.

What I think it comes down to is confidence. If you shoot your double express really well then you will feel better carrying it for leopard too. If the subject changes to lion, everyone puts the shotgun aside and picks up the heaviest rifle they have with softs.

in my limited experience of shooting one leopard with a shotgun and buckshot i can say that it killed him in his tracks on a full charge at 15 feet. using an over and under, the first barrel slowed him up slightly at a distance of about 30 feet but most of the shot charge was deflected by very heavy blackthorn that he was coming out of as he charged. the second barrel stopped him just as he cleared the thorns in front of me. both shots were snap shots as he came-no time to aim, just point and shoot. obviously a double rifle would have worked in such a situation but a bolt gun would have gotten me seriously scratched. hunting leopard with dogs in the Kalahari almost guarantees a close range shot as the leopard there bay up in thorn brush and rarely climb a tree. mine ripped up 2 dogs as he ran through the pack to come at me and that close, a shotgun makes a lot of sense, whether using slugs or buckshot.

As I understand it, the Bushmen leopard tracking hunts use shotguns exclusively?

That is one hunt I would like to experience someday.

The superiority of the shotgun lies in being a pointing vs an aiming weapon for leopard, IMO. There is no time to aim with a wounded leopard.
I scoped rifle would be the worst weapon, but a FITTED double with express sights used by someone who is used to the weapon is perfect, as is a well fitted 12 ga double firing 3 magnum buckshot or slugs.
I used to hunt wild boar in Pakistan for the bounty 30 years ago, and can attest to the effectiveness of the 12 ga from close distances (<20 ft) We used LG (large grape)shot from horseback, and shots were really close. At night we would hunt them with a spotlight from a tractor, and a shotgun was useless. My open sighted 9.3x57 Mauser was perfect, giving lengthwise penetration in the biggest boar with the 286 gr SP bullet @about 2150 fps. That's right, the bullet would pnetrate into the chest from a Texas heart shot (most were shot from behind while running away).
Shots will be close and VERY fast with wounded leopard, so I would prefer my 12 ga double with LG (slightly bigger shot than 00 buck).
For the record, I hunted lion with Hallamore in Zim 12 years ago. he had a 44mag revolver to augment his 470 double. I asked him what the handgun was for, and he said, Beats peeling him off your shoes with your finger nails, my boy!

Hallamore is an exceptionally fine bird shot, so I can understand him being comfy with his 470 or his Beretta O/U 12 ga.

i think most hunters over the course of a lifetime will shoot 100 shotgun rounds for every rifle round they fire. i know i have. as such, pointing a shotgun becomes instinctive and automatic- muscle memory takes over and for a close range shot on a moving target, that is exactly what you want!! the Ruger O/U i borrowed from the outfitter for my hunt shouldered automatically with no thought process on my part.

Old and sometimes fruitless and confusing debate.

IMHO, those in the know and with experience (and with whom I have spoken personally and whom I respect enormously) prefer semi-automatic or double-barrelled shotguns loaded with high brass shells packed with hard plated 00 or 0 (or SSG or SG) buckshot.

Pure lead buckshot will usually work but can be problematic. Rifles will always work except in case of a missed shot and hence the problem.

I think the load that might be the most effctive is something produced by a company called "Hev-Shot" ---- heavier than lead and penetrates like all get out. I know a coyote isn't a leopard but I have friends who have killed coyotes at 60+ yards using this shell loaded with buckshot and I've see photos of similar loads using smaller shot turning geese and larger ducks upside down at 65-70 when hit--- it's like they ran into a wall.

carbide ball bearings work like nothing else. I just completed a two bbl set citori one of them is 20 inches and shoots 3.5 in 2 ounce loads that will crush a cat.

Read the late George Hoffmans book, A Country Boy In Africa.

He used a Remington 870 pump and 00 buck alot from front end of a truck, shooting leopard off his tennis shoes while driving through heavy brush.

GH thoguht enough of the 870 that he told me he recommended a 416 w 1.5 x 5 scope a (swift and FMJ) and the shotgun w 2 barrles for everything in Africa.

Dont know how apprapo the 870 on front of a Toyota is to what you all are talking about but the guy loved hunting leopards. And had alot of experience.

Andy

Everyone's got their own ideas on this and FWIW, I don't give a flying f**k what anyone else chooses to use, I personally prefer to use my very fast handling 500 Jeffery for everything, including wounded or 'missing' cats.

However, without meaning to offend anyone, I wonder how many of the opinions above are based on real experiences rather than real experiences of reading books of real experiences.

Personally, I reckon the best thing to do is hit 'em right in the first place and if you do that, they don't go far and are dead when you find 'em. Two years ago, I changed the way I rehearsed the client for the shot and since then, every client has killed the cat with the first shot and the most I've had to do is follow the blood spoor for a hundred yards or so before finding Mr Spots laying dead. - So far it's worked a treat!

Slightly off topic, but not much. Santa bought me a Surefire Kroma last year and the blue function makes it sooooo much easier to follow up a blood spoor at night, it's not true. If you've got a cat hunt planned, I'd highly recommend you buy one before you go.

I have heard this so many times, and have spoken to a number of PHs, and I think I will stick to my own rifle.

There is absolutely nothing iffy about it if I hit him right.

With a shotgun, there is always some doubt as what the effect might be on him.


Of course, as was mentioned above, hit him well with the first shot, and you won't have to case him around.

I honestly find it amazing that people miss or wound leopards, given that they shoot from a rest not too far away.

I have seen pictures where some imagitive ways have been used to provide a rest for the rifle.

My only experience in this comes from reading a book, but I think I remember reading in one of Capsticks books (I know, I know, hard to separate fact from fiction) that after working through velocity and weight numbers that #1 buckshot carried the most energy of any buckshot load and this is what he carried into the brush after a wounded leopard. Anyone else remember reading this? His reasoning for a shotgun was not having enough time to get an aimed shot with a rifle even though a .458 carried a bigger punch. Hope I never get in this situation or force another one into this situation.

Inside 15yds the advantage of a pattern is essentially non-existent.

As I stated in the article- not my personal choice- but one increasingly being forced on young PH's due to our wonderful SADAC protocol on firearms.

Hevi shot looks good. Hard plated shot tends to bounce off skulls- at least, the only two cases I have looked at OO coper plated shot failed to penetrate a leopads skull at close range. Similarly some of the lead stuff is too soft and flattens out on chest muscles. S&B in particular comes to mind.

Lou Halimore prefers a shotgun. Wayne Grant (get his book - into the thorns if you are really interested in leopard hunting) uses a 460 Weatherby. For those of us who own double rifles...the problem is non existant

I would be happy with my sp-10 autolader with 00 buck (19 pellets per shell in 10ga). I have a 20" sighted slug barrel for it and it spits out 3 rounds quickly. I have used it for whitetail in Ohio for 15 years with 1 7/8 oz slugs. So it is second nature to me.

Shakari,

GH apparently played it very safe and when possible followed up wounded cats AT NIGHT in a truck!

I dont know if he would recommend a shotgun for a clients first shot.

Probably not as he did like his 416.

Andy

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
i think most hunters over the course of a lifetime will shoot 100 shotgun rounds for every rifle round they fire. ...

Just 100?

You are obviously not a member of my duck club!!

Try 1000!!! Our enjoyment is unfortunately measured in shots fired as opposed to ducks dropped!

quote:

Ganyana
one of us
Posted 07 March 2008 20:50 Hide Post
As I stated in the article- not my personal choice- but one increasingly being forced on young PH's due to our wonderful SADAC protocol on firearms.

Hevi shot looks good. Hard plated shot tends to bounce off skulls- at least, the only two cases I have looked at OO coper plated shot failed to penetrate a leopads skull at close range. Similarly some of the lead stuff is too soft and flattens out on chest muscles. S&B in particular comes to mind.

Lou Halimore prefers a shotgun. Wayne Grant (get his book - into the thorns if you are really interested in leopard hunting) uses a 460 Weatherby. For those of us who own double rifles...the problem is non existant

"OO copper plated shot failed to penetrate a leopard’s skull at close range. Similarly some of the lead stuff is too soft and flattens out on chest muscles."

Ganyana
You have had a serious break from reality if you believe that OO Buck flattens on chest muscle, I don’t care how soft the lead is. The only way OO will fail to penetrate a skull is if it strikes at a very shallow angel and it glanced off which can happen with a rifle also, but if you are talking about a angle of 45 degrees or better the buck will penetrate a cats skull.

In Montana a bird hunter looked up and saw his dog running back to him with a Grizzly Bear in prusit. When the bear got close he killed it with one shot to the head, of 20ga #8 shot, and you thinl OO buck won’t penetrate.

This is a common thread in your writings you distort facts to prove your preconceived notions. You are obviously educated past your intelligence.



DR B

Ganyana:

Please quit recounting actual experiences.
Dr. B obviously has around when dozens of leopards were skinned and didn't see the flattened shot or the un-penetrated skulls and how could he be wrong?

I'll remind you of the above over a toddy in June and you can tell me about the leopards you haven't seen.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

Slightly off topic, but not much. Santa bought me a Surefire Kroma last year and the blue function makes it sooooo much easier to follow up a blood spoor at night, it's not true. If you've got a cat hunt planned, I'd highly recommend you buy one before you go.

Shakari,
You have mentioned the Kroma before, and seemed so enthused that I went out got one an a couple dozen batteries. Well, technically I went on ebay and got one sent, but no matter. Would you mind giving a little detail on the use of these blue lights for blood trailing or is it just as simple as using it instead of a conventional light. Most of my hunting is done with snow on the ground, but on bare ground and darkness every little bit helps.On snow everyone is an expert.

DrB,

I would like to come to Ganyanas defense, as will many of us here who have met or know him.

000 Buck (8 pellet) is soft enough to expand quite a bit on a head shot on relatively small critters like large domestic dogs (70 - 80 pounds). It does cause explosive head wounds on these cattle killers with which I have quite a bit of experience (over 60 killed).

Copper plated 00 buck while it holds a very tight pattern does not cause explosive head wounds.

Your experience w #8 birdshot is basically making a case for a slug because thats what it ws doing to kill a bear. Must have been within ten steps or so to still be one glob of lead.

Slugs penetrate 16-24 inches depending whether they are Hollow base (which usually turn over and expand) or Breneke solids.

If you HAVE to use a 12 ga., Ganyanas advice is sound.

The 12 can solve many human problems if you know its pattern and limitations but it is not a 375 or 416.

And please dont try and kill anything bigger than a dove with #8 shot!

Andy

Good grief! Dr. B, you have no idea who you are talking to when you speak to Ganyana like that. Wow...

Dr B

I don't know anything about bears but I do know that I've seen (on more than one occasion) very large shot, including buckshot fail to penetrate a Leopard skull at close range. Ganyana got it right, as he usually does........

Dogleg,

You just switch it onto blue light, shine it on the ground/low bush and those spots of blood absolutely shout, I'M HERE! I'M HERE!. - All you have to do to test it is go outside at night and chuck about a few drops of any blood. Then put the light on it and you'll see what I mean. - It works almost as well on dried blood as it does on wet blood. I usually give the Kroma to my tracker to use and I tape an ordinary small surefire to the barrel of my 500 and use my thumb to operate it. - That way, I get the best of both worlds.

I read somewhere that the light causes the blood to fluoresce (SP?) - I don't know if that's exactly what it does or not, but it does seem to make the blood almost shine back at you. - I also read somewhere that the forensics teams use blue light in their investigations to look for blood traces, but don't know if that's true. - Perhaps Ann might like to comment.

And when you author these kinds of posts Dr B,

quote:

Originally posted by Dr B:




This is a common thread in your writings you distort facts to prove your preconceived notions. You are obviously educated past your intelligence.



DR B

you loose any credibility.

Shakari,
I'll try that just as soon as I get a chance. I could have used some help on more than a few occasions. Nothing quite as exotic as leopard, but blood is blood.Thanks.

You're very welcome. As you say, blood is blood and I guarantee that once you've tried it, you won't be disappointed - despite the high cost of 'em.

I have spoken to two of the great post WW2 hunters, both in their 80's, on this subject and they both tell me EXACTLY what Ganyana has said.
The three of them would account for in excess of 120 yrs of hunting experience in Africa, I wonder what the good doctor's is. My guess is fuck all.I would suggest that his knowledge is on a par with his manners. Lower than whale shit.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I have heard this so many times, and have spoken to a number of PHs, and I think I will stick to my own rifle.

There is absolutely nothing iffy about it if I hit him right.

With a shotgun, there is always some doubt as what the effect might be on him.


Of course, as was mentioned above, hit him well with the first shot, and you won't have to case him around.

I honestly find it amazing that people miss or wound leopards, given that they shoot from a rest not too far away.

I have seen pictures where some imagitive ways have been used to provide a rest for the rifle.

With all due respect, I delivered a new stock to Andy Hunter in Chewore last year, and got a good look at the one Chui used as a tooth pick. If it's going to be up close and personal, give me a scattergun and a stack of buckshot.

Althoug ,i guide in Argentina ,where there are only 3 cats ,the ocelote ,very easy to put down ,the puma,with a big subspecie in LOS ANDES mountains very high in the snow ,and of course the jaguar,i ALWAYS FOLLOW THE ADVICE OF GANYANA,but here very few PHs have doubles,most of them has scoped 308s,and now the FAL a rifle very common here ,with an excellent short commando version is virtually forbidden ,so we are limited to the SHOTGUN .
As most of you know im a wing shooter outfitter so i have many auto shotguns ,and i have experienced malfuctions with any of them ,this limits me to PUMP or Double ,i shott thousands of shots with both and i can cycle my remington 870 or the mossberg590sp as fast as most of the shooter with the autos i use them ,i never considered puting a bayonet in the mossberg as GANYANA grandad likes but its an intersting option .Furthermore sometimes i send my big male DOGO after the cat ,i believe a dogo with best and collar can be very useful for AFRICAN PHs WHAT DO YOU THINK GANYANA.In the same excelent article our friend recommends the PHs to carry a handgun ,here thats a growing tendency ,but i quit carriying my 44,and i have in my belt my old GLOCK model22 40sw never failed to me and its ligth enough when i have to run fast in the bush .What you think my friend about the COPILOTS OR THE MARLIN GUIDE GUN -i used them sometimes- .
This is a photo of last week trying to kill a puma injured by a spanish.

[IMG]last pursue of an injured puma one of the guides carry a cz375hyh open sigthed the other a mossberg 590sp http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a98/juanpozzi/MCLAWHORN256.jpg[/IMG]

quote:

zimbabwe
I have a PH friend in Zimbabwe who swears by the shotgun. ... I did kill one Leopard with this combo and will have to admit it was effective.

quote:

jdollar
in my limited experience of shooting one leopard with a shotgun and buckshot i can say that it killed him in his tracks on a full charge at 15 feet. ... a shotgun makes a lot of sense, whether using slugs or buckshot.

quote:

yukon delta

As I understand it, the Bushmen leopard tracking hunts use shotguns exclusively?

It must be a miracle these leopards dropped dead after the Buck Shot failed to penetrate the chest muscles or the skull. Maybe the sound of the shot caused them to have a heart attack.

You people need to use your common sense and not take every thing you read as gospel.

Who remember when Ganyana wrote about the 458win bouncing off a Buffalo and killing some guy in a helicopter.

DR B

You're not listening very well. No one is saying that a shotgun can't kill a leopard. Obviously it can and it often does. Ganyana wrote about that very thing in his article but it's not his first choice based upon his personal experience and observations.

You doubt the statement that lead pellets deform and flatten? That's just basic shotgun 101.

Ganyana is in the field more in one year than most of the guys here in their lifetime...or even several lifetimes. If you spend enough time, you will see strange things. Don't be so quick to dismiss what you haven't personally observed. If he says a bullet skipped on a animal and killed someone or something else, I have no reason to doubt that. That happens all the time in ambushes and culling animals is just another type of ambush scenario.

Let me also say that Ganyana's credentials are highly respected in the entire safari industry (not just Zim). Whenever someone goes after the credibility of someone else, the first order of business is to establish your own credentials.

Now it's your turn to say something intelligent...

quote:

Originally posted by Dr B:

Who remember when Ganyana wrote about the 458win bouncing off a Buffalo and killing some guy in a helicopter.

DR B

A glancing shot off a horn or a pass-through with deflection into a low flying helicopter has happened in buffalo culling (and likely many times in similiar events in military actions), BOUNCE is not a particuliarly good description, and I would doubt whether Ganyana used that term.

One word of caution for any of you who might think that 00 or 000 buck in a short, rifled-slug barrel is the way to go. You are probably gonna get scratched! Better practice a lot with what you are actually gonna try. The rifling tends to throw the buckshot in the wad like a knuckleball, and it goes everywhere except on target.

Thought it might be handy in some of our shotgun deer seasons, where close cover follow-up of a wounded buck might be necessary.

We tried various loads in 20", 23", and 26" barrels and in most cases the shot didn't even appear on target at 25 yards. Several different types actually went into the ground between us and the target at about 10 yards.

That is way too erratic for me.

Its necesary to explain ,that here,in international outfitting,and in a lot of countries of AFRICA ,GAYANA ,has a well earned reputation ,hes a PH,IPSCshooter,has a doctorate in vet and numerous awards in related matters,furthermore is a combat vet ,with a great experience in bush warfare ,SO I THINK SOMEBODY CAN DISAGREE WITH HIM BUT ,HE DESERVES ALL OUR RESPECT.
On another matter his personal choices like the double,or the fal he always carries and the revolver in the belt have a lot of sense .Juan

quote:

Originally posted by Dr B:

quote:

zimbabwe
I have a PH friend in Zimbabwe who swears by the shotgun. ... I did kill one Leopard with this combo and will have to admit it was effective.

quote:

jdollar
in my limited experience of shooting one leopard with a shotgun and buckshot i can say that it killed him in his tracks on a full charge at 15 feet. ... a shotgun makes a lot of sense, whether using slugs or buckshot.

quote:

yukon delta

As I understand it, the Bushmen leopard tracking hunts use shotguns exclusively?

It must be a miracle these leopards dropped dead after the Buck Shot failed to penetrate the chest muscles or the skull. Maybe the sound of the shot caused them to have a heart attack.

You people need to use your common sense and not take every thing you read as gospel.

Who remember when Ganyana wrote about the 458win bouncing off a Buffalo and killing some guy in a helicopter.

DR B

you took part of my comment out of context. i stated that a shotgun made a lot of sense on a tracking hunt where you almost are guaranteed a close shot on a moving (charging) target. so would a double rifle if one practiced enough to make such a shot automatic with no thought process or aiming involved.. i have never fired a double rifle but i have put thousands of rounds through my Win. 101- for ME, an O/U shotgun was perfect! i can't presume to speak for anyone else.