A while back I watched a DVD of hunting in the Omay. In it a client shot his 21st elephant. If memory serves me correctly he shot 3 bulls on the same hunt. 2 of these bulls were exceptional for the Zambeze Valley. I believe this area is overpopulated with elephant, and need to be hunted, so I guess I'm OK with this particular hunt. However I would not like to be the clients following him into this concession for my once in a lifetime elephant.

Today I watched "Boddington on Lion" for the 4th time. I hope this isn't sour grapes on my part. I enjoy this and all of Craig's Videos.I would dearli love to hunt a lion some day, although I doubt I will ever be able to affordit. What bothered me was 2 hunters in this vid shot their 9th or 10th lions. One of these guys even spoke in a different part of the DVD about the need for conservation with the lion. In it he said what lions we shouldn't shoot. No lions under the age of 6, and no lions that were still with the pride. Maby the 3rd criteria should be your 10th lion.

It apears to me that there are a different set of rules for some of us.

Venda Axe:

Hardly a different set of rules.

Elephant hunting obviously rocks his boat.

Elephants do not have a ball and chain on their legs - a 45 pounder could be taken this week and a 60 or more pounder in the following hunt
in the same concession.
In one season (6 months) we took 9 Elephants between 45 & 70 lbs.

Buffalo rock Saeed's and many others' boats.

The same could be said about the Lion hunters - they shot 9 & 10 respectively out of the available quota over a period of time; they would have been shot anyway by other hunters.

As long as they were legally and ethically taken what difference does it make as to who takes how many?....and of course having the financial means to do so makes it all the more possible.

How many is too many? When ya don't have any money left for the next one!


Mad Dog

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Venda Axe:

Hardly a different set of rules.

Elephant hunting obviously rocks his boat.

Elephants do not have a ball and chain on their legs - a 45 pounder could be taken this week and a 60 or more pounder in the following hunt
in the same concession.
In one season (6 months) we took 9 Elephants between 45 & 70 lbs.

Buffalo rock Saeed's and many others' boats.

The same could be said about the Lion hunters - they shot 9 & 10 respectively out of the available quota over a period of time; they would have been shot anyway by other hunters.

As long as they were legally and ethically taken what difference does it make as to who takes how many?....and of course having the financial means to do so makes it all the more possible.

Fujo,

If the correct number of specie, sex etc.. are taken out of the herd for proper management purposes what difference does it make WHO shoots them?

If the quota is available and a guy has the financial resource to pay the trophy fees and thus support the sustained yield resulting from good management then more power to them.

They are using their money to promote the future of the species in that area.

If that guy didn't hunt them, someone else would. That quota will not go unsold - you can bet on that!

The thing that might change over time is the price would come down a bit, perhaps (?) as the demand dropped (ie, more hunters who "already have their XYZ" stop hunting them). For lions especially, a decrease in their value would probably spell the end of the line for them in many places.

quote:

I believe this area is overpopulated with elephant,

You're dreaming!

As long as there is quota, thats not too many....

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

I believe this area is overpopulated with elephant,

You're dreaming!

Will, what data do you have to say this?

465H&H

I am with Jerry. If the animals are on quota and the animals are properly and fairly hunted, what difference does it make whether one hunter hunts ten or ten hunters hunt one. Feels to me like someone is either envious or looking for a problem where none exists.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Venda Axe:

As long as they were legally and ethically taken what difference does it make as to who takes how many?....and of course having the financial means to do so makes it all the more possible.

Yup.

I was told this sort of thing was started by Jack O'Connor.

Apparently he was invited to shoot an elephant - for free.

He did.

Then he wrote that he did not want to shoot one again.

If it is on quota, and I like to hunt it, then there is no such thing as too many.

Bloody hell, I like steak, so I must have eaten a few cows too!

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I am with Jerry. If the animals are on quota and the animals are properly and fairly hunted, what difference does it make whether one hunter hunts ten or ten hunters hunt one. Feels to me like someone is either envious or looking for a problem where none exists.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

I believe this area is overpopulated with elephant,

You're dreaming!

Will, what data do you have to say this?

465H&H

465,

Much like his inability to use two trigger Will is unable the find the emocons and didn't know that this means he was just kidding.

He'd be a lot more likable if he'd figure that out.

Any more than one is too many, apparently.

But who wants to stop at one?

African hunting, for the able and the competent, is all about money and opportunity.

And money IS opportunity. We all wish we had more of both, but we settle for what we have.

So hunting anything, and enough of same, is exactly like everything else in life.

Tough nuts, but there it is.

I have a mate who looks like a film star and claims to have gone to bed with over 200 women.

Personally I think there should be a limit.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
I have a mate who looks like a film star and claims to have gone to bed with over 200 women.

Personally I think there should be a limit.

Only 200?

Bloody hell, I went through that many in high school!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Only 200?

Bloody hell, I went through that many in high school!

That was probably due to your wealth, Saeed. It certainly wasn't a result of your good looks.

Tony,

I think many of us would have gone to our graves virgins if the girls were looking for movie stars!

Like all of us when young, anything in skirt was welcome.

I suppose the girls would have thought anything in trousers was welcome.

I am reminded of this fact each time I look into the mirror.

It might be a good idea for you to do the same

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I suppose the girls would have thought anything in trousers was welcome.

Sounds as if the gals in Dubai were quite desperate. In my youth, only us good-looking dudes had the pleasure of the better looking ladies.

I was always taught there is no points for being the richest man in the graveyard.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
I have a mate who looks like a film star and claims to have gone to bed with over 200 women.

Personally I think there should be a limit.

Only 200?

Bloody hell, I went through that many in high school!

What an education that must have been?

Outdoor Writer:

(a) "Never judge a Book by it cover"

and (b) you know what is said of those short guys.... (do the thumb/forefinger test)

I would venture to say the trophy price of Elephant and Lion is determined by their availability and not much else. They may be a little more dangerous to hunt than Leopard and buffalo but not by much I would Imagine. If one were limited to one in a lifetime I Imagine the same quanity would be shot (all that are on quota) it's just that the privilege would be enjoyed by more than just the affluent few who do so now. If my memory serves me in Arizona you are only allowed one Bison Bull and one Desert Big Horn in a lifetime. I'm not sure whether that is actually taking one or being drawn for one as Arizona has the lottery system where price of trophy is somewhat removed from the equation.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

I believe this area is overpopulated with elephant,

You're dreaming!

Will, what data do you have to say this?

465H&H

Just hearsay. I have been there since 2005 but talk to a PH well-known to me in Dallas and he told me in 10 days last fall he saw three elephant. I'd say it's not over abundant.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

I believe this area is overpopulated with elephant,

You're dreaming!

Will, what data do you have to say this?

465H&H

465,

Much like his inability to use two trigger Will is unable the find the emocons and didn't know that this means he was just kidding.

He'd be a lot more likable if he'd figure that out.

I'm glad to see you are losing sleep at night and doting on my every word.

If you really want to rag on people you should dig up some real dirt. Shit happens over in Zim that never reaches the airways. Lots of good elephant dirt!

I'm saving it for my next book ... Kiss and Tell on the Dark Continent.

'Kiss and Tell on the Dark Continent'

Sounds a bit queer mate?

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

I believe this area is overpopulated with elephant,

You're dreaming!

Will, what data do you have to say this?

465H&H

Just hearsay. I have been there since 2005 but talk to a PH well-known to me in Dallas and he told me in 10 days last fall he saw three elephant. I'd say it's not over abundant.

There are two things (at least) to remember about elephant populations in Omay South. The first is that most if not all of these elephant spend a lot of time in Matusadona NP. The Park population is way over optimum population numbers. Second is that as the water dries up in OS and the crops are harvested the elephants move back into the Park and down to the Lake Shore. I have hunted Omay South at least three times since 2005, the most recent was this past November. We saw few elephants the first 5 days, although we did see a lot of old sign from earlier in the year but little fresh sign. Then we got into too many on the sixth day. These elephants had come out on MNP the night before along the Park boundry west of where the Tashinga road takes off. I would say that populations in OS are high from late January to mid-summer.

Perhaps Martin Pieters can weigh in here and correct me where I am wrong.

465H&H

quote:

I'm glad to see you are losing sleep at night and doting on my every word.

If you really want to rag on people you should dig up some real dirt.

Will,

The day I lose a seconds sleep over an insecure, arrogant, loudmouth like you we'll all go snowboarding in Zimbabwe together, one big happy family.

This coming form the original dish rag himself?

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
I have a mate who looks like a film star and claims to have gone to bed with over 200 women.

Personally I think there should be a limit.

He's just a beginner.

Bill Wyman (Rolling Stones) claims 4000+.

I think I will keep my personal tally private.

This brings up a point I made once before.....Yes there are a few "men of privilage" who have hunted African many times and some have shot over 50 Buff (CB) and one on AR has shot a Dozen Lion....A DOZEN LION !!! IMO that starts to become a little greedy. More people need to have a chance...Why? Well look at the empending loss of the Okavango. So few hunters got the chance to hunt it that when hunting there is banned there will be little support by the hunting community since most will never get the chance to hunt there anyway. And PH's scurry away a another country nearby. If the projected image of "African Hunting is for Rich Guys" could be eliminated there would be more support for guns instead of Cameras.

quote:

Originally posted by Chris E Nelson:
This brings up a point I made once before.....Yes there are a few "men of privilage" who have hunted African many times and some have shot over 50 Buff (CB) and one on AR has shot a Dozen Lion....A DOZEN LION !!! IMO that starts to become a little greedy. More people need to have a chance...Why? Well look at the empending loss of the Okavango. So few hunters got the chance to hunt it that when hunting there is banned there will be little support by the hunting community since most will never get the chance to hunt there anyway. And PH's scurry away a another country nearby. If the projected image of "African Hunting is for Rich Guys" could be eliminated there would be more support for guns instead of Cameras.

Chris,

I don't have Saeed's money, but I disagree. Either our position is that the money provided by trophy hunting benefits the killing of "x" lions per year, or it doesn't. Maximizing revenue is the key.

CB may have shot 50 buff (it is more than that), but he didn't pay for all of them. On one hand, he loves to state he is poor. On the other hand, he loves to say he doesn't get free hunts. Well, those two things don't add up. Either he is wealthy and pays for his hunts, or he is a poor writer who gets comped a lot. Who knows? But one thing I do admire about the guy is that he does love hunting, and when he was young he probably thought how he could best achieve his goals. He chose the role of becoming a writer. His military service provided a "safety net" but you don't know how important his concept of duty weighed on his military career. But he rolled the dice and was successful. He had a plan and executed it. You have to admire that. Is that privilege? I don't think so.

The guy on AR who has shot 12 lions claims to not be wealthy; I don't know. Since I get to Littleton quite often, I will check him out. He undoubtedly has received free/discounted hunts as the result of being a booking agent and taking the chance of starting his own business. He had a plan and executed it. Is that privilege? I don't think so.

Most wealthy hunters are driven by success; they might like hunting, but they are equally driven by business success. I am sure there are many wealthy hunters who have shot more than 12 lions but they don't feel compelled to talk about it here.

Africa is not North America. I do believe that your ideas are valid in NA. The difference here is that hunting's biggest threat is voter initiatives (voter propositions). It is not in our best interests to sell every tag to the highest bidder. In this country, it is in our best interests to ensure Joe the Plumber still dreams of hunting elk "out west." And that is why I hate United States Outfitters: their agenda would lead to states increased their NR tags to control demand.

If you truly believe in what you are saying, you should be protesting the high NR rates of your own state.

Some of these wealthy individuals may well kill large numbers of these animals. I see no problem with it as long as it is legal.

Some people think life is easy when one is rich. While that may be true for some, it is far more likely that those who are self made are under enormous stress and work long hours. Hunting may be their distraction that helps them cope with the every days stresses of running a business.

I had not really thought about this before. I dont begrudge anyone who has the means to be able to do it. I mean that of course in that the management goals are a maintained. On the other hand, I see a lot of draws here in the USA that are once in a lifetime and have no probllem with that either. It is being able to strike a balance between the management goals and sharing the wealth. By that, I mean giving as many as possible the opportunity at a unique hunt. I certyainly dont have an swer in this case and am not sure it could ever apply anyway.

The last 3 posts brought up some valid points. There is, however, the undisputed fact that when hunting is threatened and doesn't have the support of a large general hunting population it vanishes. Little by little it is happening in Africa. The money generated by hunting In Tanzania is peanuts compared to that of the non-hunting Safari. When pressure it put to bear on hunting who do you think they'll listen to.

quote:

Originally posted by John Frederick:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
I have a mate who looks like a film star and claims to have gone to bed with over 200 women.

Personally I think there should be a limit.

He's just a beginner.

Bill Wyman (Rolling Stones) claims 4000+.

I think I will keep my personal tally private.

My mate is only 15 years old.

quote:

Originally posted by Chris E Nelson:
This brings up a point I made once before.....Yes there are a few "men of privilage" who have hunted African many times and some have shot over 50 Buff (CB) and one on AR has shot a Dozen Lion....A DOZEN LION !!! IMO that starts to become a little greedy. More people need to have a chance...Why? Well look at the empending loss of the Okavango. So few hunters got the chance to hunt it that when hunting there is banned there will be little support by the hunting community since most will never get the chance to hunt there anyway. And PH's scurry away a another country nearby. If the projected image of "African Hunting is for Rich Guys" could be eliminated there would be more support for guns instead of Cameras.

everyone has an equal chance. X number of tags/ licenses/ quota is assigned to an area/ conservancy/country. they are then sold by outfitters to whoever can afford them. at the of the day, 10 different lions killed by 10 different people equals they same number of dead lions as 10 lions killed by 1 person. just because you can't afford it doesn't mean it isn't fair. the tags are available to ANYONE WITH THE MONEY.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by Chris E Nelson:
This brings up a point I made once before.....Yes there are a few "men of privilage" who have hunted African many times and some have shot over 50 Buff (CB) and one on AR has shot a Dozen Lion....A DOZEN LION !!! IMO that starts to become a little greedy. More people need to have a chance...Why? Well look at the empending loss of the Okavango. So few hunters got the chance to hunt it that when hunting there is banned there will be little support by the hunting community since most will never get the chance to hunt there anyway. And PH's scurry away a another country nearby. If the projected image of "African Hunting is for Rich Guys" could be eliminated there would be more support for guns instead of Cameras.

The guy on AR who has shot 12 lions claims to not be wealthy; I don't know. Since I get to Littleton quite often, I will check him out. He undoubtedly has received free/discounted hunts as the result of being a booking agent and taking the chance of starting his own business. He had a plan and executed it. Is that privelage? I don't think so.

AAZ - We have chatted about hunts before, and I hope you get a chance to stop by my house, you are certainly welcome anytime.

First off, I have NEVER received a free lion hunt, EVER! I have of course taken advantage of a discount or two, but no different dicount than was being offered to anyone, I just happened to buy it first. I have also paid FULL-PRICE for the majority of the lions I have hunted, as a Lion is much too valuable to the operator to give away for anything less.

I am not wealthy, and never have been. I am single, no kids, and have little responsibilities outside of my own personal needs. Thus, I have spent my money on what I wanted most, lions. I have sacrificed on many other things in life, to be able to hunt lions, and many other things throughout Africa, N.A., etc. Partly because its my business, as I believe any good agent should have as much experience as possible with any area/outfitter/hunt he plans to represent. Often times outfitters will let you tag along with clients, but rarely do they "give" much, unless you plan to pay too! So if I plan to hunt, I pay too, one way or another.

But for anyone to think hunting in Africa is threatened because not everyone can do it, is simply not in the know. Everyone can hunt coyotes and prairie dogs, ask the antis how quickly they would like to stop that too???

Chris - Hunting in Botswana is under threat for three major reasons.
1. The President is an anti-hunter!
2. Derek Joubert and company
3. Botswana has few people, and loads of money. They fail to see the "NEED", but in time will suffer the consequences, when the elephants finish the destruction of the Delta, the Chobe, etc. Its only a matter of time!!

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by Chris E Nelson:
This brings up a point I made once before.....Yes there are a few "men of privilage" who have hunted African many times and some have shot over 50 Buff (CB) and one on AR has shot a Dozen Lion....A DOZEN LION !!! IMO that starts to become a little greedy. More people need to have a chance...Why? Well look at the empending loss of the Okavango. So few hunters got the chance to hunt it that when hunting there is banned there will be little support by the hunting community since most will never get the chance to hunt there anyway. And PH's scurry away a another country nearby. If the projected image of "African Hunting is for Rich Guys" could be eliminated there would be more support for guns instead of Cameras.

The guy on AR who has shot 12 lions claims to not be wealthy; I don't know. Since I get to Littleton quite often, I will check him out. He undoubtedly has received free/discounted hunts as the result of being a booking agent and taking the chance of starting his own business. He had a plan and executed it. Is that privelage? I don't think so.

AAZ - We have chatted about hunts before, and I hope you get a chance to stop by my house, you are certainly welcome anytime.

First off, I have NEVER received a free lion hunt, EVER! I have of course taken advantage of a discount or two, but no different dicount than was being offered to anyone, I just happened to buy it first. I have also paid FULL-PRICE for the majority of the lions I have hunted, as a Lion is much too valuable to the operator to give away for anything less.

I am not wealthy, and never have been. I am single, no kids, and have little responsibilities outside of my own personal needs. Thus, I have spent my money on what I wanted most, lions. I have sacrificed on many other things in life, to be able to hunt lions, and many other things throughout Africa, N.A., etc. Partly because its my business, as I believe any good agent should have as much experience as possible with any area/outfitter/hunt he plans to represent. Often times outfitters will let you tag along with clients, but rarely do they "give" much, unless you plan to pay too! So if I plan to hunt, I pay too, one way or another.

But for anyone to think hunting in Africa is threatened because not everyone can do it, is simply not in the know. Everyone can hunt coyotes and prairie dogs, ask the antis how quickly they would like to stop that too???

Chris - Hunting in Botswana is under threat for three major reasons.
1. The President is an anti-hunter!
2. Derek Joubert and company
3. Botswana has few people, and loads of money. They fail to see the "NEED", but in time will suffer the consequences, when the elephants finish the destruction of the Delta, the Chobe, etc. Its only a matter of time!!

Aaron,

Thanks for clarifying that. But even if you received a discount, you took a chance to make your living in the industry. My position on making things transparent does not take away from my admiration of those who had a plan and did it.

The point is you are not privileged, and you point that out here.

But Chris certainly has a right to his opinion. I just don't agree with it.