quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by John Frederick:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
I have a mate who looks like a film star and claims to have gone to bed with over 200 women.

Personally I think there should be a limit.

He's just a beginner.

Bill Wyman (Rolling Stones) claims 4000+.

I think I will keep my personal tally private.

My mate is only 15 years old.

Now there's a lad that's going somewhere.

OK what would I not shoot?

Giraffe

Probably because we intensively protect small populations of the Thornicroft in the Luangwa which are protected and have become very trusting and accustomed to our presence. The hunting of them just does not strike me as a sporting.

Lion/Leopard

Being along side the hunter, the client and conducting the follow has been good enough for me.

Yellow Backed Duiker

Because when I finally find one I am going to catch the little bastard, clone it, breed it and have hundreds of little yellow backs running around my yard to make up for every bloody hour I have spent hunting them.

www.cannedyellowbacks.com (still under construction)

Aaron- I Can understand your point.....But in this world Money talks. It wouldn't matter if the President was a antihunter or if others controlled things if lots of money was being funneled in to their pockets from hunting. That is how one of the most corrupt areas of the world operates. It's Pula not policy. I've enjoyed this discussion but it seems that most who greatly disagree with my point are those who have the privilage (money) to go to Africa numerous times and shoot more than most. The fact remains...it is only a matter of time before hunting opportunities in Africa slowly but surely go the way of the Dinosaurs and ends up as "ranch"hunting. Quite frankly (And believe me Iam not racist)what Africa needs is manditory Birth Control !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Chris E Nelson:
fact remains...it is only a matter of time before hunting opportunities in Africa slowly but surely go the way of the Dinosaurs !

More like the way of India and unfortunately that didn't take long .

quote:

How many is too many?

When fate finally catches up with you, and as Capstick said, "..not only can your mother not identify your body, she can't even tell the front from the back!".

I guess my rhetorical question would be somewhat opposite...

Why is one never enough?

quote:

Originally posted by Chris E Nelson:
I've enjoyed this discussion but it seems that most who greatly disagree with my point are those who have the privilage (money) to go to Africa numerous times and shoot more than most. The fact remains...it is only a matter of time before hunting opportunities in Africa slowly but surely go the way of the Dinosaurs and ends up as "ranch"hunting.

I am certainly not a person of privilege and I absolutely disagree with your point. The main reason is you fail to make a point. In the last thread you had going in this direction you made several broad hints at what you were trying to say, but for whatever reason you never laid it out in plain language. I came to the conclusion that you want outfitters and others to subsidize your dream trip to Africa instead of working for it yourself as most of those of us who have gone to Africa have done. You justify these cries for subsidies using a chicken little strategy and a flawed economic premise. The sky is not falling, and if the price of a good or service is artificially (subsidies) set below the fair market value, that good or service will become more scarce; that is one of the central tenants of economic theory.

If this is not what you are trying to say, then please explain exactly what you are trying to say.

Lhook7 -Apparently you have difficulty with the English language.....the POINT is without widespread support (both money and vocal)by the majority of the hunting population,hunting that caters to only a few WILL NOT LAST. You run on about the economic theory....Africa is the third world and money /power speaks loudest. So if more money can be made from the photo Safari, that's where things will go. Kenya first...Botswana (Okavango and Lion Hunting) next. It doesn't take a genius to see that one hunter who spends 20+K doesn't carry the same value as 10000 spending 3-4K to take pictures from a Safari Truck. And besides the money these Photogs spend is more directly seen by the local population versus some remote camp employing a handful of people. I have been to Africa 6 times and I save alot to get there. I drive an old truck and live in a small house and taylor my lifestyle to be able to HUNT. Africa IS THE ULTIMATE hunting adventure and I think it is a shame that more people can't experience its Magic

quote:

Originally posted by Chris E Nelson:
Lhook7 -Apparently you have difficulty with the English language.....the POINT is without widespread support (both money and vocal)by the majority of the hunting population,hunting that caters to only a few WILL NOT LAST. You run on about the economic theory....Africa is the third world and money /power speaks loudest. So if more money can be made from the photo Safari, that's where things will go. Kenya first...Botswana (Okavango and Lion Hunting) next. It doesn't take a genius to see that one hunter who spends 20+K doesn't carry the same value as 10000 spending 3-4K to take pictures from a Safari Truck. And besides the money these Photogs spend is more directly seen by the local population versus some remote camp employing a handful of people. I have been to Africa 6 times and I save alot to get there. I drive an old truck and live in a small house and taylor my lifestyle to be able to HUNT. Africa IS THE ULTIMATE hunting adventure and I think it is a shame that more people can't experience its Magic

Why did you go to Africa 6 times?

Why wasn't once enough?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Chris E Nelson:
Lhook7 -Apparently you have difficulty with the English language.....the POINT is without widespread support (both money and vocal)by the majority of the hunting population,hunting that caters to only a few WILL NOT LAST. You run on about the economic theory....Africa is the third world and money /power speaks loudest. So if more money can be made from the photo Safari, that's where things will go. Kenya first...Botswana (Okavango and Lion Hunting) next. It doesn't take a genius to see that one hunter who spends 20+K doesn't carry the same value as 10000 spending 3-4K to take pictures from a Safari Truck. And besides the money these Photogs spend is more directly seen by the local population versus some remote camp employing a handful of people. I have been to Africa 6 times and I save alot to get there. I drive an old truck and live in a small house and taylor my lifestyle to be able to HUNT. Africa IS THE ULTIMATE hunting adventure and I think it is a shame that more people can't experience its Magic

Why did you go to Africa 6 times?

Why wasn't once enough?

Seriously dumb questions, given the points that the poster was making.

quote:

Originally posted by John Frederick:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Chris E Nelson:
Lhook7 -Apparently you have difficulty with the English language.....the POINT is without widespread support (both money and vocal)by the majority of the hunting population,hunting that caters to only a few WILL NOT LAST. You run on about the economic theory....Africa is the third world and money /power speaks loudest. So if more money can be made from the photo Safari, that's where things will go. Kenya first...Botswana (Okavango and Lion Hunting) next. It doesn't take a genius to see that one hunter who spends 20+K doesn't carry the same value as 10000 spending 3-4K to take pictures from a Safari Truck. And besides the money these Photogs spend is more directly seen by the local population versus some remote camp employing a handful of people. I have been to Africa 6 times and I save alot to get there. I drive an old truck and live in a small house and taylor my lifestyle to be able to HUNT. Africa IS THE ULTIMATE hunting adventure and I think it is a shame that more people can't experience its Magic

Why did you go to Africa 6 times?

Why wasn't once enough?

Seriously dumb questions, given the points that the poster was making.

What points? That the world is not as the poster would wish it to be?

I don't have enough tears to go on that crying jag.

Those of us who enjoy hunting somehow manage to go hunting as often as we can.

We don't waste our time complaining about what cannot and will not be changed in the vast, cruel world around us.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
OK what would I not shoot?

Yellow Backed Duiker

Because when I finally find one I am going to catch the little bastard, clone it, breed it and have hundreds of little yellow backs running around my yard to make up for every bloody hour I have spent hunting them.

www.cannedyellowbacks.com (still under construction)

quote:

Originally posted by Chris E Nelson:
Lhook7 -Apparently you have difficulty with the English language.....the POINT is without widespread support (both money and vocal)by the majority of the hunting population,hunting that caters to only a few WILL NOT LAST. You run on about the economic theory....Africa is the third world and money /power speaks loudest. So if more money can be made from the photo Safari, that's where things will go. Kenya first...Botswana (Okavango and Lion Hunting) next. It doesn't take a genius to see that one hunter who spends 20+K doesn't carry the same value as 10000 spending 3-4K to take pictures from a Safari Truck. And besides the money these Photogs spend is more directly seen by the local population versus some remote camp employing a handful of people. I have been to Africa 6 times and I save alot to get there. I drive an old truck and live in a small house and taylor my lifestyle to be able to HUNT. Africa IS THE ULTIMATE hunting adventure and I think it is a shame that more people can't experience its Magic

I have no problem understanding the English language; my problem lies in trying to understand your fairy tale logic. You claim you have been to Africa 6 times, and I am going to assume those were all hunting trips since that is one of the tenets of this discussion, using your logic shouldn't you have only gone once and then paid for a different person to go on each of the other 5 trips? Also, why should the lifetime bag limit for each species, both hunting and fishing, anywhere in the world be more than one? Using your logic that would be appropriate.

That is what I am having trouble understanding, you are making no logical points whatsoever, rather just a lot of whining about haves and have nots.

I think I detect a doze of jealousy here.

quote:

Originally posted by Chris E Nelson:
Lhook7 -Apparently you have difficulty with the English language.....the POINT is without widespread support (both money and vocal)by the majority of the hunting population,hunting that caters to only a few WILL NOT LAST. You run on about the economic theory....Africa is the third world and money /power speaks loudest. So if more money can be made from the photo Safari, that's where things will go. Kenya first...Botswana (Okavango and Lion Hunting) next. It doesn't take a genius to see that one hunter who spends 20+K doesn't carry the same value as 10000 spending 3-4K to take pictures from a Safari Truck. And besides the money these Photogs spend is more directly seen by the local population versus some remote camp employing a handful of people. I have been to Africa 6 times and I save alot to get there. I drive an old truck and live in a small house and taylor my lifestyle to be able to HUNT. Africa IS THE ULTIMATE hunting adventure and I think it is a shame that more people can't experience its Magic

You and I would get on like a house on fire. Good attitude mate.

Go on a Tiger hunt in India, a Lion hunt in Botswana or a lesser Kudu hunt in Kenya....see how far your money gets you in that endevor. What I've said is not attitude it is fact. Lhook7 I have gone to Africa 6x to experience hunting DIFFERENT species not blast a dozen Lion or 50 Buffalo ...you should learn to read posts from the beginning so you can understand other peoples opinion instead of calling them names and attacking them personally (which by the way you do way too often)Say whatever you like on this Forum BUT FOR GODS SAKE DON"T OFFEND THE WEALTHY Jeez Lighten up guys Iam not after your money !!!

One more than you have money for.

quote:

Originally posted by Chris E Nelson:
Go on a Tiger hunt in India, a Lion hunt in Botswana or a lesser Kudu hunt in Kenya....see how far your money gets you in that endevor.

What in the hell are you trying to say here? Seriously, I still have absolutely no idea what point you are trying to make with this portion of your post, or the rest of it for that matter.

quote:

Originally posted by Chris E Nelson: What I've said is not attitude it is fact. Lhook7 I have gone to Africa 6x to experience hunting DIFFERENT species not blast a dozen Lion or 50 Buffalo

Have you ever killed more than one of any single species? If so, how did you square that with your hunting philosophy. You do realize that anyone who subscribes to your philosophy would have to stop hunting rabbit, deer, coyote, squirrel, etc... after their first one? That would mean the majority of Americans who do not travel to hunt would have a hunting career that could be over in the span of a few years. How good is that for hunting?

quote:

Originally posted by Chris E Nelson: you should learn to read posts from the beginning so you can understand other peoples opinion instead of calling them names and attacking them personally (which by the way you do way too often)

As painful as it is, I have read each of your posts on this subject from beginning to end. I especially like the one where you claim you are not a racist, but you want to put all the people of Africa on Birth control, since you mentioned race in that post I am assuming you only want to put all the black people of Africa on birth control. You want to subject the black people of Africa to your version of population control and anyone who travels there to your version of conservation; that is really what irks me about your posts, that level of condensation coming from one who can not even communicate a cogent thought. As far as personal attacks go, I encourage you to go back through your own posts and read them from beginning to end and notice how you refer to people who do not subscribe to your philosophy. Which, by the way, is pretty much everybody.

1832 Posts #*!!...obviously your cave has electricity....Adios

quote:

Originally posted by Chris E Nelson:
1832 Posts #*!!...obviously your cave has electricity....Adios

Be a man and don't edit in your... well... stuff??? post it as a new response so all can behold your brilliance.

Once again

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Chris E Nelson:
Lhook7 -Apparently you have difficulty with the English language.....the POINT is without widespread support (both money and vocal)by the majority of the hunting population,hunting that caters to only a few WILL NOT LAST. You run on about the economic theory....Africa is the third world and money /power speaks loudest. So if more money can be made from the photo Safari, that's where things will go. Kenya first...Botswana (Okavango and Lion Hunting) next. It doesn't take a genius to see that one hunter who spends 20+K doesn't carry the same value as 10000 spending 3-4K to take pictures from a Safari Truck. And besides the money these Photogs spend is more directly seen by the local population versus some remote camp employing a handful of people. I have been to Africa 6 times and I save alot to get there. I drive an old truck and live in a small house and taylor my lifestyle to be able to HUNT. Africa IS THE ULTIMATE hunting adventure and I think it is a shame that more people can't experience its Magic

You and I would get on like a house on fire. Good attitude mate.

At least someone else gets what he is saying.

quote:

Originally posted by Chris E Nelson:
Go on a Tiger hunt in India, a Lion hunt in Botswana or a lesser Kudu hunt in Kenya....see how far your money gets you in that endevor. !!!

Politics, corruption, and overpopulation, trump proper game management more often than you would think.

quote:

Originally posted by Chris E Nelson:
What I've said is not attitude it is fact. Lhook7 I have gone to Africa 6x to experience hunting DIFFERENT species not blast a dozen Lion or 50 Buffalo ...

So how many deer should US hunters stop at ???? Pigs? Varmints?

If that kind of thinking holds true for one country, then it should hold true for all countries.

quote:

Originally posted by Chris E Nelson:
... Lighten up guys I am not after your money !!!

No, but you are not shy about sharing your opinion how other people should spend thier money.

Money they earned. Not you.


Africa has always been a spendy hunting destination for the foriegn hunter.

What you seem to want to do is introduce both price fixing, and rationing.

Two practices that history has shown cause shortages to the supply of whatever commodity people have tried to control by those methods.

The trade offs of money and enviornmental impact between properly managed sport hunting and photographic tourism, is a conversation worth having.

Discussing the various ways hunting is threatened by political, cultural, economic and population factors, and how to preserve hunting in the face of these issues, is a conversation worth having.

quote:

Originally posted by Chris E Nelson:
...most who greatly disagree with my point are those who have the privilage (money) to go to Africa numerous times and shoot more than most.

And why shouldn't they (the bourgeoisie) disagree with you?

What conversation do you really want to have Mr. Nelson?


.

I think what Chris is saying is that when African hunting loses popularity it will end. The best way to preserve that popularity is to have lots of people participating.

On the face of it, that sounds reasonable. But it isn't reasonable for Africa. The threat to African hunting is not the same as the threats to hunting in the US.

The best way to save African hunting is demonstrate the contributions hunters make. Hunters are willing to pay lots of money to hunt out of a camp in the Selous; few photo safarists are willing to do that - they would much rather go to a park.

So given the scarce resources we have, why sell a lion hunt for less than the going rate? That totally destroys the argument that we are funding conservation.

On the other hand, as I said above, his premise has merit in the US, simply because the biggest threat to hunting in the US is voter propositions. Once hunting becomes so expensive most hunters today cannot afford it, it will die. In Europe and other places, landowners own the game. Not true in the US, and besides, North Dakota recently had a voter proposition to outlaw hunting behind high fences. Why? It isn't really that popular, and viewed by many as an activity for a bunch of lazy wealthy hunters who just want to put a head on the wall.

Hunting is the only thing that will save the wildlife in Africa. Without hunters in the field and anti-poaching patrols funded by those same hunters, the game is done. It doesn't matter if those hunters are the so called "privileged " or some guy that has saved his whole life for one trip. The quotas are established based upon wildlife populations, not upon the economic class of the people shooting them.

Be glad that there are some privileged hunters around that have been able to go in this current economic downturn. Without these people, many of the hunting areas would not be protected. As soon as the hunters are gone, the poachers will be there .

Now see boys these last 2 above posts are how discussions should be held. No name calling or fear of being picked on or worst of all people hijacking a thread. Opinions are like ***holes everybodies got one but you don't have to be an ***hole to have an opinion. Thank you Larry and AZ

quote:

Originally posted by Chris E Nelson:
Quite frankly (And believe me Iam not racist)what Africa needs is manditory Birth Control !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are not the only person here who feels that way, but my question to you and your brethren is: why are you not calling for mandatory birth control in Europe or Asia(2X and 3X the population density of Africa, respectively)???

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by Chris E Nelson:
Quite frankly (And believe me Iam not racist)what Africa needs is manditory Birth Control !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are not the only person here who feels that way, but my question to you and your brethren is: why are you not calling for mandatory birth control in Europe or Asia(2X and 3X the population density of Africa, respectively)???

A lot of Europe has a static human population growth so I think you can leave them out of the list for the snip .

I think the reason you are pissing-off so many people is that fact that your argument is built on so many false pretenses.

quote:

Originally posted by Chris E Nelson:
the POINT is without widespread support (both money and vocal)by the majority of the hunting population,hunting that caters to only a few WILL NOT LAST.

Here is where your argument goes off the tracks: your idea that making African hunting more accessable to the common man, but making it less expensive, will ensure more interest and therefore more support. Here is the cold hard truth: the majority of the hunting population has very little interest in African hunting regardless of price. Out of the dozen of so guys I hunt with here in the states I am the only one who has any interest in African hunting. Even if they could hunt in Africa for free only one or two of my hunting partners would spring for a $2,000 plane ticket to fly there.

So will hunting in Africa die out? Only time will tell....

quote:

It doesn't take a genius to see that one hunter who spends 20+K doesn't carry the same value as 10000 spending 3-4K to take pictures from a Safari Truck.

You seem to imply that there are more people participating in photo safaris than hunting safaris because hunting safaris are more expensive. It is important to realize that photo safaris tend to be much more family oriented, which makes it much more attractive to the population in general. This is likely a major reason more people go to African to take pictures than to hunt.

The other thing to keep in mind is the fact that most hunters go to Africa alone(or with a buddy who is paying his own way), while most photo safaris are family vacations. This means that even though the photo safari is cheaper per person once you multiply all the costs by two for a husband and wife, or by four for a husband, wife and two children, a photo safari is likely to require more wealth than a hunting safari.

Hunting in Africa is probably more accessible to the average Joe than a photo safari.

quote:

I have been to Africa 6 times and I save alot to get there. I drive an old truck and live in a small house and taylor my lifestyle to be able to HUNT. Africa IS THE ULTIMATE hunting adventure and I think it is a shame that more people can't experience its Magic

And the truth is almost anyone living in the US can afford to hunt in Africa at today's prices. The simple truth is that a very basic(but great) hunt is African can be done for less than $6,000 total. It would not take much sacrifice for the average person to come up with this type of money each year. Smaller house, cheaper(older) car, overtime at work, etc.

Everyone here in the US could go to Africa to hunt, but not everyone can "experience the magic" because hunting in Africa is only magical to those of us who feel the romance of Africa in our hearts(sorry for getting a bit purple, I just don't know how else to describe it). I have conversed with quite a few hunters who have hunted Africa once but have no urge to return. The one thing all these hunters had in common was that they hunted Africa not because they felt the burning desire to hunt the Dark Continent, but for some other less profound reason. Most of these guys made the trip due to peer pressure or because "hunting in African is such a great deal".

The sad truth: hunting in Africa is not for everyone, regardless of price.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

And the truth is almost anyone living in the US can afford to hunt in Africa at today's prices. The simple truth is that a very basic(but great) hunt is African can be done for less than $6,000 total. It would not take much sacrifice for the average person to come up with this type of money each year. Smaller house, cheaper(older) car, overtime at work, etc.

Everyone here in the US could go to Africa to hunt, but not everyone can "experience the magic" because hunting in Africa is only magical to those of us who feel the romance of Africa in our hearts(sorry for getting a bit purple, I just don't know how else to describe it). I have conversed with quite a few hunters who have hunted Africa once but have no urge to return. The one thing all these hunters had in common was that they hunted Africa not because they felt the burning desire to hunt the Dark Continent, but for some other less profound reason. Most of these guys made the trip due to peep pressure or because "hunting in African is such a great deal".

The sad truth: hunting in Africa is not for everyone, regardless of price.

quote:

A lot of Europe has a static human population growth so I think you can leave them out of the list for the snip .

I'm well aware. In fact many countries in Europe have negative population growth.

My point is that it is interesting that we single out Africa when their lower population density actually leaves more room for game than Europe or Asia.

Everyone has a right to their own opinion.

quote:

Everyone has a right to their own opinion

Absolutly!

And likewise, everyone has teh right to hunt what he wishes, as aften as he wishes.

And it no business of anyone else.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

A lot of Europe has a static human population growth so I think you can leave them out of the list for the snip .

I'm well aware. In fact many countries in Europe have negative population growth.

My point is that it is interesting that we single out Africa when their lower population density actually leaves more room for game than Europe or Asia.

Hence the dreams of keeping it that way.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
And likewise, everyone has teh right to hunt what he wishes, as aften as he wishes.

And it no business of anyone else.

I agree completely. And it is easy to win the debate by stating it as succinctly as you.

But I also think it is important to point out the serious flaws in Mr. Nelson's argument.

I can't believe how much I learn while we are hashing-out these arguments here on AR.

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
Hence the dreams of keeping it that way.