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The latest issue of African Hunting Gazette includes an article by a PH who hunts crocs and also gathers their eggs for croc farms.

If I understand him correctly, he claims that, based on his considerable experience, with equally well-placed brain shots, a croc that is brain-shot with an expanding bullet will sometimes survive a split second longer than one that is brain-shot with a solid.

Long enough for a quick tail flip and lunge into the water. The result for him, he says, is that in one season he lost 35% more crocs when he brain-shot them with softs as compared to when he brain-shot them with solids.

Not pure science, but he apparently checked any number of crocs that he had brain-shot with softs, but that had managed to get into the water before dying. All had been really and truly brain-shot.

He offered no explanation for this phenomenon, but did advise that a solid be used for any croc at the water's edge or thereabouts.

Can it be possible that the millisecond it takes for an expanding bullet to upset really gives the croc time to react?

I have never shot a croc, but it got me wondering.

All you croc hunters out there, does this make sense to you, based on your experience?


Mike

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Posts: 13698 | Location: New England | Registered: 06 June 2003Reply With Quote
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I am no expert. I have only shot two. I took both with softs.

Personally, I would doubt the claim. However, I have no evidence to base it on. I am shooting with softs until someone can explain to me why a solid is better.
 
Posts: 12114 | Location: Orlando, FL | Registered: 26 January 2006Reply With Quote
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That sure is a puzzeling statement. I acn think of no reason for it to happen.

465H&H
 
Posts: 5686 | Location: Nampa, Idaho | Registered: 10 February 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Can it be possible that the millisecond it takes for an expanding bullet to upset really gives the croc time to react?



Maybe the increased(?) shock of a soft causes an increased nervous system reaction that propels the croc forward into the water????

Just a WAG..


Jason

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Posts: 6838 | Location: Nome, Alaska(formerly SW Wyoming) | Registered: 22 December 2003Reply With Quote
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Not sure about that and do not know of any PH that recommends a solid for a head shot?


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Posts: 9994 | Location: Zambia | Registered: 10 April 2009Reply With Quote
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Mike,

I can't comment on the lost crocs. The hunters comments don't make sense but it's his expereince. I do know if I shoot another croc with a brain shot I'm using a solid and pray for a perfect hit. A soft point just blows the top of the head to bits. Actually I think if I can I'll try the spine shot and an expanding bullet is perfect for this.

Mark


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Posts: 13046 | Location: LAS VEGAS, NV USA | Registered: 04 August 2002Reply With Quote
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I can think of two reasons this might happen, one has already been mentioned, the soft point causes much more commotion of the Central Nervous System. You see this on mammals also.

Second issue might be better results w FMJ's that may hit waterline and richochet into brain more reliably than a SP?

Andy
 
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I'm sure that the guy believes it, but I don't buy it.

I've always used expanding bullets on Croc hoping that a very near miss with a solid might turn into a hit with the expanding bullet and I think that is probably right. And, I doubt that the something less than a millisecond it takes the bullet to expand will give the Croc much of an edge on escape.

Crocs are quick to be sure, but not that quick.


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Posts: 495 | Location: Florida | Registered: 17 February 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by OldHandgunHunter:
I'm sure that the guy believes it, but I don't buy it.

I've always used expanding bullets on Croc hoping that a very near miss with a solid might turn into a hit with the expanding bullet and I think that is probably right. And, I doubt that the something less than a millisecond it takes the bullet to expand will give the Croc much of an edge on escape.

Crocs are quick to be sure, but not that quick.


Agreed!


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Posts: 38081 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006Reply With Quote
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I'm puzzled at why people keep insisting on shooting at a Croc's brain Roll Eyes If you aim for the spine, anywhere from behind the smile to the front of the shoulder, you have a much larger target and hitting it paralizes them. Even a glancing blow will stun them long enough for you to get a second shot off. A PH friend of mine and Chris Troskie had a client shoot a Croc at 50 yards. The client insisted his .375 was just the ticket for a one shot kill. He shot and the Croc's skull cap went flying...so did the Croc, straight into the river, never to be found. We video'd my Croc two years ago. I shot him in the neck with a .280 at 136 yards. He didn't go anywhere. No brain shots for me and like Mark said, brain shots sure mess up a cool skull.
LDK


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"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading" - Thomas Jefferson

Every morning the Zebra wakes up knowing it must outrun the fastest Lion if it wants to stay alive. Every morning the Lion wakes up knowing it must outrun the slowest Zebra or it will starve. It makes no difference if you are a Zebra or a Lion; when the Sun comes up in Africa, you must wake up running......

"If you're being chased by a Lion, you don't have to be faster than the Lion, you just have to be faster than the person next to you."
 
Posts: 6825 | Location: Tennessee | Registered: 18 December 2006Reply With Quote
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Maybe that's why they called it a croc story.


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Big Grin +1
 
Posts: 18570 | Registered: 04 April 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
The latest issue of African Hunting Gazette includes an article by a PH who hunts crocs and also gathers their eggs for croc farms.

If I understand him correctly, he claims that, based on his considerable experience, with equally well-placed brain shots, a croc that is brain-shot with an expanding bullet will sometimes survive a split second longer than one that is brain-shot with a solid.

Long enough for a quick tail flip and lunge into the water. The result for him, he says, is that in one season he lost 35% more crocs when he brain-shot them with softs as compared to when he brain-shot them with solids.

Not pure science, but he apparently checked any number of crocs that he had brain-shot with softs, but that had managed to get into the water before dying. All had been really and truly brain-shot.

He offered no explanation for this phenomenon, but did advise that a solid be used for any croc at the water's edge or thereabouts.

Can it be possible that the millisecond it takes for an expanding bullet to upset really gives the croc time to react?

I have never shot a croc, but it got me wondering.

All you croc hunters out there, does this make sense to you, based on your experience?


As the English would say, this PH is talking codswalop!

Pure, unadulterated bullshit.


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Posts: 68880 | Location: Dubai, UAE | Registered: 08 January 1998Reply With Quote
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What Saeed said! tu2


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Posts: 3577 | Location: Silicon Valley | Registered: 19 November 2008Reply With Quote
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Agreed.

I have not read it and don't know the author. However, I have to wonder if he is having a little fun with his readers.
 
Posts: 12114 | Location: Orlando, FL | Registered: 26 January 2006Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by L. David Keith:
I'm puzzled at why people keep insisting on shooting at a Croc's brain Roll Eyes If you aim for the spine, anywhere from behind the smile to the front of the shoulder, you have a much larger target and hitting it paralizes them. Even a glancing blow will stun them long enough for you to get a second shot off. A PH friend of mine and Chris Troskie had a client shoot a Croc at 50 yards. The client insisted his .375 was just the ticket for a one shot kill. He shot and the Croc's skull cap went flying...so did the Croc, straight into the river, never to be found. We video'd my Croc two years ago. I shot him in the neck with a .280 at 136 yards. He didn't go anywhere. No brain shots for me and like Mark said, brain shots sure mess up a cool skull.
LDK


Many crocs are head shot in the water. I prefer the neck shot but if the neck is partial obscured then it is a difficult one to call.

Also many crocs are shot head on.

I had two clients last year who wanted the skulls only and therefore these had to be neck shot and one of these hunters pulled the shot and hit the shoulder severing the spine there. So yes there are many advantages to the neck shot.


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Posts: 9994 | Location: Zambia | Registered: 10 April 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
Pure, unadulterated bullshit.


Actually proper use of the English Language, however my political hero Mr. Limbaugh refers to it either as Bovine Excrement or as Pure Barbara Streisl...


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Posts: 2821 | Location: Left Coast | Registered: 23 September 2001Reply With Quote
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Croc of shit


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Posts: 9994 | Location: Zambia | Registered: 10 April 2009Reply With Quote
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I only have experience with one Croc. I shot it with a .300 Wby and I used a 200grn Accubond. I shot the Croc. in brain and blew half of his skull off. The Croc. moved upon being hit, not much but his tail swung to a side. Maybe the question should be can a nervous system reaction cause loss of Croc.? Sure, i guess it could, I was happy to see my Croc. in the same spot after the shot. Wink
 
Posts: 219 | Location: Reading, PA | Registered: 15 August 2003Reply With Quote
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Haven't yet read current issue of "AHG"...guess I will today for at least that story.
My very limited experience, one, was basking on sand bar in Luangwa with 2 or 3 feet of tail in water. Quarteing toward presenting no spine shot or dead-on frontal. Chipman instructed my shot with 7mmMag, 160 gr hornadys. He flicked his tail only to one side. We ran down the bank and I put another in the spine even tho likely not needed. He did not react to second shot. My taxidermist did react to repair job he is currently doing on head!
 
Posts: 696 | Location: Soddy Daisy, TN USA | Registered: 05 February 2008Reply With Quote
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As Andrew indicated, total "Croc of shit". Having shot several, and filmed several others being shot, all with softs. I do agree with Mark, in that from now on I will shoot them with solids, only because they do less damage to the head/skull.

But to say softs kill crocs slower than a solid. My lord, some people will believe anything.


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Posts: 4888 | Location: Boise, Idaho | Registered: 05 March 2009Reply With Quote
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Have shot several, and filmed dozens. Have seen it all work, and fail. Solids do less skull damage for sure. As for me, I am really starting to warm up to the neck shot- very deadly. Hit on target, both softs and solid will do the job on any size of croc. I read the article and enjoyed it. He uses the shots and bullets he has faith in and it works for him. But from now on I will take the neck shot with a soft. Shot placement is EVERYTHING !


Dave Fulson
 
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Personally I like the neck, neck, chest back slap congrats oh crap it's moving neck, neck, chest repeat approach. Big Grin


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Posts: 7624 | Location: Alaska | Registered: 05 February 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Many crocs are head shot in the water. I prefer the neck shot but if the neck is partial obscured then it is a difficult one to call.

Also many crocs are shot head on.

I had two clients last year who wanted the skulls only and therefore these had to be neck shot and one of these hunters pulled the shot and hit the shoulder severing the spine there. So yes there are many advantages to the neck shot.

Andrew, yes, I totally agree, sometimes we have no choice. That being said, hunting Crocs has taught me one important lesson...patience Grasshoppa, patience Big Grin
Cheers,
David


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Took the wife the Eastern Cape for her first hunt:
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Hunting in the Stormberg, Winterberg and Hankey Mountains of the Eastern Cape 2018
http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4801073142
Hunting the Eastern Cape, RSA May 22nd - June 15th 2007
http://forums.accuratereloadin...=810104007#810104007
16 Days in Zimbabwe: Leopard, plains game, fowl and more:
http://forums.accuratereloadin...=212108409#212108409
Natal: Rhino, Croc, Nyala, Bushbuck and more
http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6341092311
Recent hunt in the Eastern Cape, August 2010: Pics added
http://forums.accuratereloadin...261039941#9261039941
10 days in the Stormberg Mountains
http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7781081322
Back in the Stormberg Mountains with friends: May-June 2017
http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6001078232

"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading" - Thomas Jefferson

Every morning the Zebra wakes up knowing it must outrun the fastest Lion if it wants to stay alive. Every morning the Lion wakes up knowing it must outrun the slowest Zebra or it will starve. It makes no difference if you are a Zebra or a Lion; when the Sun comes up in Africa, you must wake up running......

"If you're being chased by a Lion, you don't have to be faster than the Lion, you just have to be faster than the person next to you."
 
Posts: 6825 | Location: Tennessee | Registered: 18 December 2006Reply With Quote
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I have a hard time comprehending how a solid is more effective.

But then again, what do I know. I wasn't there and really can't comment. He must feel confident enough to put it in writing for his peers to criticize.
 
Posts: 6270 | Location: Dallas, TX | Registered: 13 July 2001Reply With Quote
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Do like I did. A TSX got the best of both worlds.

16feet long a pass through shot 110yds. DRT

Mike


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Posts: 6768 | Location: Wyoming, Pa. USA | Registered: 17 April 2003Reply With Quote
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Wow Mike, that Croc blow'd up good, real good! Congrats again on taking a huge dinocroc. Pierre knows where to find some giants!
Cheers,
David


Gray Ghost Hunting Safaris
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Email: hunts@grayghostsafaris.com
NRA Benefactor
DSC Professional Member
SCI Member
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Took the wife the Eastern Cape for her first hunt:
http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6881000262
Hunting in the Stormberg, Winterberg and Hankey Mountains of the Eastern Cape 2018
http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4801073142
Hunting the Eastern Cape, RSA May 22nd - June 15th 2007
http://forums.accuratereloadin...=810104007#810104007
16 Days in Zimbabwe: Leopard, plains game, fowl and more:
http://forums.accuratereloadin...=212108409#212108409
Natal: Rhino, Croc, Nyala, Bushbuck and more
http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6341092311
Recent hunt in the Eastern Cape, August 2010: Pics added
http://forums.accuratereloadin...261039941#9261039941
10 days in the Stormberg Mountains
http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7781081322
Back in the Stormberg Mountains with friends: May-June 2017
http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6001078232

"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading" - Thomas Jefferson

Every morning the Zebra wakes up knowing it must outrun the fastest Lion if it wants to stay alive. Every morning the Lion wakes up knowing it must outrun the slowest Zebra or it will starve. It makes no difference if you are a Zebra or a Lion; when the Sun comes up in Africa, you must wake up running......

"If you're being chased by a Lion, you don't have to be faster than the Lion, you just have to be faster than the person next to you."
 
Posts: 6825 | Location: Tennessee | Registered: 18 December 2006Reply With Quote
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FWI I Shot 2...both with .375 .300 gr. TBBC.

1st one was a brain shot, 2nd one was a spine shot. They both were dead on the spot. Of course, the brain shot croc wasn't pretty, but the taxidermist made it look like it was.

Regards, D. Nelson
 
Posts: 2271 | Registered: 17 July 2003Reply With Quote
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There's a lot a people here with much more experience than I on Corc's but if I hunt them again I'll continue to shoot them in the spine.
Also I'll use a soft as they're more accurate than a solid and shot placement is critical on big lizards.
 
Posts: 444 | Location: Alaska | Registered: 11 February 2008Reply With Quote
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I have shot quite a few crocs, all with either Barnes X or our own Walterhog bullets.

Trouble with hunting crocs is that one does not have a choice of his shot.
I have shot ones broadside, I have shot ones that were facing me, and I have shot ones that were facing away.

One has to take the shot that is available at the time.


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Posts: 68880 | Location: Dubai, UAE | Registered: 08 January 1998Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
I have shot quite a few crocs, all with either Barnes X or our own Walterhog bullets.

Trouble with hunting crocs is that one does not have a choice of his shot.
I have shot ones broadside, I have shot ones that were facing me, and I have shot ones that were facing away.

One has to take the shot that is available at the time.


Exactly!!


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Posts: 4888 | Location: Boise, Idaho | Registered: 05 March 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by retreever:
Do like I did. A TSX got the best of both worlds.

16feet long a pass through shot 110yds. DRT

Mike


That's the way Mike and your taxidermist will sort that out for you.

Even if a soft does not hit the brain maybe a fragment of it will. As you can see in this picture the shock has cracked the skull almost down to it's nose. Another consideration.


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Posts: 9994 | Location: Zambia | Registered: 10 April 2009Reply With Quote
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This croc was seen lying up on a sand bank and the closest shooting distance was 120 yards (ranged). We went back sighted in the .416 at this distance, went over the neck shot and bullet placement. I always point out dead center (neck) and ask the client to shoot one cm below that mark. Makes the shooter concentrate better.

The bullet holes are just above the white dots. First behind the smile which was not so funny for the croc. Second middle neck and two in point of the shoulder.



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Posts: 9994 | Location: Zambia | Registered: 10 April 2009Reply With Quote
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I read the article last night. He based his "35% more lost with softs" statement after he had set up an experiment of shooting 100 crocs with solids and 100 crocs with softs. He analyzed shot placement with post mortems to make sure they were all truly brain shot. Sounds like he has a fair amount of experience.


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Posts: 3830 | Location: Cave Creek, AZ | Registered: 09 August 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Blacktailer:
I read the article last night. He based his "35% more lost with softs" statement after he had set up an experiment of shooting 100 crocs with solids and 100 crocs with softs. He analyzed shot placement with post mortems to make sure they were all truly brain shot. Sounds like he has a fair amount of experience.


Sorry my subscription was pulled by AHG. Who is this so called expert who has practiced on 200 crocs?

Are we talking reptiles or those funny slip on shoes here?


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Posts: 9994 | Location: Zambia | Registered: 10 April 2009Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by fairgame:
Are we talking reptiles or those funny slip on shoes here?


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2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012
DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191
Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771
Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141
Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141
 
Posts: 7624 | Location: Alaska | Registered: 05 February 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by fairgame:


Sorry my subscription was pulled by AHG. Who is this so called expert who has practiced on 200 crocs?

Are we talking reptiles or those funny slip on shoes here?

His name is Graham Cawood. He was culling crocs on Lake Cahora Bassa and the Zambezi below the dam.
You should renew with AHG. Certainly one of the best African mags (or Gazettes?)


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Posts: 3830 | Location: Cave Creek, AZ | Registered: 09 August 2001Reply With Quote
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Yes, indeed. Very good and often thought-provoking articles in every issue.

Thanks, Blacktailer.

Mr. Cawood has made a bit of a career out of crocs and has killed more of them than most of us will ever even see.

Which is why his observations regarding the effectiveness of solids, as compared with softs, intrigued me in the first place.

Here is precisely what he says:

. . . I quickly realized that when hitting the brain with a solid, the crocodile doesn't move - so much that you sometimes think you've missed!

When hitting the brain with a soft point, the tail always flicks, so much so that in some cases it generates enough momentum to propel the crocodile into the water. We've managed to grab most of these crocodiles and saw that the shots were spot-on target.

It's clear to me that a brain shot with a soft point allows the croc more movement and increases the risk of losing it if water is close by. If there's only a short distance between the croc and the water - a yard or two - use a solid! . . .


I frankly find it hard to believe, but hesitate to doubt anyone with as much experience as Mr. Cawood.

Hence my general public question.


Mike

Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer.
 
Posts: 13698 | Location: New England | Registered: 06 June 2003Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Blacktailer:
quote:
Originally posted by fairgame:


Sorry my subscription was pulled by AHG. Who is this so called expert who has practiced on 200 crocs?

Are we talking reptiles or those funny slip on shoes here?

His name is Graham Cawood. He was culling crocs on Lake Cahora Bassa and the Zambezi below the dam.
You should renew with AHG. Certainly one of the best African mags (or Gazettes?)


You do not understand. I am blacklisted.


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Posts: 9994 | Location: Zambia | Registered: 10 April 2009Reply With Quote
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Blacklisted?

That might very well change my opinion of this publication.

Can't help but wonder how that could happen.


Mike

Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer.
 
Posts: 13698 | Location: New England | Registered: 06 June 2003Reply With Quote
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