The Accurate Reloading Forums
Solids for Brain Shots on Croc
09 February 2011, 23:51
Michael RobinsonSolids for Brain Shots on Croc
The latest issue of
African Hunting Gazette includes an article by a PH who hunts crocs and also gathers their eggs for croc farms.
If I understand him correctly, he claims that, based on his considerable experience, with equally well-placed brain shots, a croc that is brain-shot with an expanding bullet will sometimes survive a split second longer than one that is brain-shot with a solid.
Long enough for a quick tail flip and lunge into the water. The result for him, he says, is that in one season he lost 35% more crocs when he brain-shot them with softs as compared to when he brain-shot them with solids.
Not pure science, but he apparently checked any number of crocs that he had brain-shot with softs, but that had managed to get into the water before dying. All had been really and truly brain-shot.
He offered no explanation for this phenomenon, but did advise that a solid be used for any croc at the water's edge or thereabouts.
Can it be possible that the millisecond it takes for an expanding bullet to upset really gives the croc time to react?
I have never shot a croc, but it got me wondering.
All you croc hunters out there, does this make sense to you, based on your experience?
Mike
Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer.
09 February 2011, 23:56
larryshoresI am no expert. I have only shot two. I took both with softs.
Personally, I would doubt the claim. However, I have no evidence to base it on. I am shooting with softs until someone can explain to me why a solid is better.
10 February 2011, 00:00
465H&HThat sure is a puzzeling statement. I acn think of no reason for it to happen.
465H&H
10 February 2011, 00:05
JBrownquote:
Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Can it be possible that the millisecond it takes for an expanding bullet to upset really gives the croc time to react?
Maybe the increased(?) shock of a soft causes an increased nervous system reaction that propels the croc forward into the water????
Just a WAG..
Jason
"You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core."
_______________________
Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt.
Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry
Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure.
-Jason Brown
10 February 2011, 00:19
fairgameNot sure about that and do not know of any PH that recommends a solid for a head shot?
ROYAL KAFUE LTD
Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com
Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144
Instagram - kafueroyal
10 February 2011, 00:27
MARK H. YOUNGMike,
I can't comment on the lost crocs. The hunters comments don't make sense but it's his expereince. I do know if I shoot another croc with a brain shot I'm using a solid and pray for a perfect hit. A soft point just blows the top of the head to bits. Actually I think if I can I'll try the spine shot and an expanding bullet is perfect for this.
Mark
MARK H. YOUNG
MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES
7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110
Office 702-848-1693
Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED
E-mail markttc@msn.com
Website: myexclusiveadventures.com
Skype: markhyhunter
Check us out on
https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 10 February 2011, 00:36
AndyI can think of two reasons this might happen, one has already been mentioned, the soft point causes much more commotion of the Central Nervous System. You see this on mammals also.
Second issue might be better results w FMJ's that may hit waterline and richochet into brain more reliably than a SP?
Andy
10 February 2011, 00:49
OldHandgunHunterI'm sure that the guy believes it, but I don't buy it.
I've always used expanding bullets on Croc hoping that a very near miss with a solid might turn into a hit with the expanding bullet and I think that is probably right. And, I doubt that the something less than a millisecond it takes the bullet to expand will give the Croc much of an edge on escape.
Crocs are quick to be sure, but not that quick.
When you get bored with life, start hunting dangerous game with a handgun.
10 February 2011, 00:51
ledvmquote:
Originally posted by OldHandgunHunter:
I'm sure that the guy believes it, but I don't buy it.
I've always used expanding bullets on Croc hoping that a very near miss with a solid might turn into a hit with the expanding bullet and I think that is probably right. And, I doubt that the something less than a millisecond it takes the bullet to expand will give the Croc much of an edge on escape.
Crocs are quick to be sure, but not that quick.
Agreed!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM
A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House
No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991.
10 February 2011, 00:57
L. David KeithI'm puzzled at why people keep insisting on shooting at a Croc's brain
If you aim for the spine, anywhere from behind the smile to the front of the shoulder, you have a much larger target and hitting it paralizes them. Even a glancing blow will stun them long enough for you to get a second shot off. A PH friend of mine and Chris Troskie had a client shoot a Croc at 50 yards. The client insisted his .375 was just the ticket for a one shot kill. He shot and the Croc's skull cap went flying...so did the Croc, straight into the river, never to be found. We video'd my Croc two years ago. I shot him in the neck with a .280 at 136 yards. He didn't go anywhere. No brain shots for me and like Mark said, brain shots sure mess up a cool skull.
LDK
Gray Ghost Hunting Safaris
http://grayghostsafaris.com Phone: 615-860-4333
Email: hunts@grayghostsafaris.com
NRA Benefactor
DSC Professional Member
SCI Member
RMEF Life Member
NWTF Guardian Life Sponsor
NAHC Life Member
Rowland Ward - SCI Scorer
Took the wife the Eastern Cape for her first hunt:
http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6881000262Hunting in the Stormberg, Winterberg and Hankey Mountains of the Eastern Cape 2018
http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4801073142Hunting the Eastern Cape, RSA May 22nd - June 15th 2007
http://forums.accuratereloadin...=810104007#810104007 16 Days in Zimbabwe: Leopard, plains game, fowl and more:
http://forums.accuratereloadin...=212108409#212108409Natal: Rhino, Croc, Nyala, Bushbuck and more
http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6341092311 Recent hunt in the Eastern Cape, August 2010: Pics added
http://forums.accuratereloadin...261039941#926103994110 days in the Stormberg Mountains
http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7781081322Back in the Stormberg Mountains with friends: May-June 2017
http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6001078232"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading" - Thomas Jefferson
Every morning the Zebra wakes up knowing it must outrun the fastest Lion if it wants to stay alive. Every morning the Lion wakes up knowing it must outrun the slowest Zebra or it will starve. It makes no difference if you are a Zebra or a Lion; when the Sun comes up in Africa, you must wake up running......
"If you're being chased by a Lion, you don't have to be faster than the Lion, you just have to be faster than the person next to you."
10 February 2011, 01:53
WillMaybe that's why they called it a croc story.
-------------------------------
Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.
---------------------------------------
and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR
_________________________
"Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped.
“Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped.
red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com
_________________________
If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go.
10 February 2011, 02:01
Use Enough Gun
+1
10 February 2011, 06:55
Saeedquote:
Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
The latest issue of African Hunting Gazette includes an article by a PH who hunts crocs and also gathers their eggs for croc farms.
If I understand him correctly, he claims that, based on his considerable experience, with equally well-placed brain shots, a croc that is brain-shot with an expanding bullet will sometimes survive a split second longer than one that is brain-shot with a solid.
Long enough for a quick tail flip and lunge into the water. The result for him, he says, is that in one season he lost 35% more crocs when he brain-shot them with softs as compared to when he brain-shot them with solids.
Not pure science, but he apparently checked any number of crocs that he had brain-shot with softs, but that had managed to get into the water before dying. All had been really and truly brain-shot.
He offered no explanation for this phenomenon, but did advise that a solid be used for any croc at the water's edge or thereabouts.
Can it be possible that the millisecond it takes for an expanding bullet to upset really gives the croc time to react?
I have never shot a croc, but it got me wondering.
All you croc hunters out there, does this make sense to you, based on your experience?
As the English would say, this PH is talking codswalop!
Pure, unadulterated bullshit.
10 February 2011, 07:18
LionHunterWhat Saeed said!
Mike
______________
DSC
DRSS (again)
SCI Life
NRA Life
Sables Life
Mzuri
IPHA
"To be a Marine is enough."
10 February 2011, 07:22
larryshoresAgreed.
I have not read it and don't know the author. However, I have to wonder if he is having a little fun with his readers.
10 February 2011, 08:52
fairgamequote:
Originally posted by L. David Keith:
I'm puzzled at why people keep insisting on shooting at a Croc's brain
If you aim for the spine, anywhere from behind the smile to the front of the shoulder, you have a much larger target and hitting it paralizes them. Even a glancing blow will stun them long enough for you to get a second shot off. A PH friend of mine and Chris Troskie had a client shoot a Croc at 50 yards. The client insisted his .375 was just the ticket for a one shot kill. He shot and the Croc's skull cap went flying...so did the Croc, straight into the river, never to be found. We video'd my Croc two years ago. I shot him in the neck with a .280 at 136 yards. He didn't go anywhere. No brain shots for me and like Mark said, brain shots sure mess up a cool skull.
LDK
Many crocs are head shot in the water. I prefer the neck shot but if the neck is partial obscured then it is a difficult one to call.
Also many crocs are shot head on.
I had two clients last year who wanted the skulls only and therefore these had to be neck shot and one of these hunters pulled the shot and hit the shoulder severing the spine there. So yes there are many advantages to the neck shot.
ROYAL KAFUE LTD
Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com
Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144
Instagram - kafueroyal
10 February 2011, 09:19
DMCI*quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
Pure, unadulterated bullshit.
Actually proper use of the English Language, however my political hero Mr. Limbaugh refers to it either as Bovine Excrement or as Pure Barbara Streisl...
--------------------
EGO sum bastard ut does frendo
10 February 2011, 10:24
fairgameCroc of shit
ROYAL KAFUE LTD
Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com
Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144
Instagram - kafueroyal
10 February 2011, 19:09
Bryan WI only have experience with one Croc. I shot it with a .300 Wby and I used a 200grn Accubond. I shot the Croc. in brain and blew half of his skull off. The Croc. moved upon being hit, not much but his tail swung to a side. Maybe the question should be can a nervous system reaction cause loss of Croc.? Sure, i guess it could, I was happy to see my Croc. in the same spot after the shot.
10 February 2011, 19:37
Tom In TennesseeHaven't yet read current issue of "AHG"...guess I will today for at least that story.
My very limited experience, one, was basking on sand bar in Luangwa with 2 or 3 feet of tail in water. Quarteing toward presenting no spine shot or dead-on frontal. Chipman instructed my shot with 7mmMag, 160 gr hornadys. He flicked his tail only to one side. We ran down the bank and I put another in the spine even tho likely not needed. He did not react to second shot. My taxidermist did react to repair job he is currently doing on head!
10 February 2011, 19:53
Aaron NeilsonAs Andrew indicated, total "Croc of shit". Having shot several, and filmed several others being shot, all with softs. I do agree with Mark, in that from now on I will shoot them with solids, only because they do less damage to the head/skull.
But to say softs kill crocs slower than a solid. My lord, some people will believe anything.
Aaron Neilson
Global Hunting Resources
303-619-2872: Cell
globalhunts@aol.com
www.huntghr.com 10 February 2011, 23:47
Dave FulsonHave shot several, and filmed dozens. Have seen it all work, and fail. Solids do less skull damage for sure. As for me, I am really starting to warm up to the neck shot- very deadly. Hit on target, both softs and solid will do the job on any size of croc. I read the article and enjoyed it. He uses the shots and bullets he has faith in and it works for him. But from now on I will take the neck shot with a soft. Shot placement is EVERYTHING !
Dave Fulson
11 February 2011, 00:17
FrostbitPersonally I like the neck, neck, chest back slap congrats oh crap it's moving neck, neck, chest repeat approach.
11 February 2011, 01:05
L. David Keithquote:
Many crocs are head shot in the water. I prefer the neck shot but if the neck is partial obscured then it is a difficult one to call.
Also many crocs are shot head on.
I had two clients last year who wanted the skulls only and therefore these had to be neck shot and one of these hunters pulled the shot and hit the shoulder severing the spine there. So yes there are many advantages to the neck shot.
Andrew, yes, I totally agree, sometimes we have no choice. That being said, hunting Crocs has taught me one important lesson...patience Grasshoppa, patience
Cheers,
David
Gray Ghost Hunting Safaris
http://grayghostsafaris.com Phone: 615-860-4333
Email: hunts@grayghostsafaris.com
NRA Benefactor
DSC Professional Member
SCI Member
RMEF Life Member
NWTF Guardian Life Sponsor
NAHC Life Member
Rowland Ward - SCI Scorer
Took the wife the Eastern Cape for her first hunt:
http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6881000262Hunting in the Stormberg, Winterberg and Hankey Mountains of the Eastern Cape 2018
http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4801073142Hunting the Eastern Cape, RSA May 22nd - June 15th 2007
http://forums.accuratereloadin...=810104007#810104007 16 Days in Zimbabwe: Leopard, plains game, fowl and more:
http://forums.accuratereloadin...=212108409#212108409Natal: Rhino, Croc, Nyala, Bushbuck and more
http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6341092311 Recent hunt in the Eastern Cape, August 2010: Pics added
http://forums.accuratereloadin...261039941#926103994110 days in the Stormberg Mountains
http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7781081322Back in the Stormberg Mountains with friends: May-June 2017
http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6001078232"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading" - Thomas Jefferson
Every morning the Zebra wakes up knowing it must outrun the fastest Lion if it wants to stay alive. Every morning the Lion wakes up knowing it must outrun the slowest Zebra or it will starve. It makes no difference if you are a Zebra or a Lion; when the Sun comes up in Africa, you must wake up running......
"If you're being chased by a Lion, you don't have to be faster than the Lion, you just have to be faster than the person next to you."
11 February 2011, 01:19
Wendell ReichI have a hard time comprehending how a solid is more effective.
But then again, what do I know. I wasn't there and really can't comment. He must feel confident enough to put it in writing for his peers to criticize.
11 February 2011, 01:23
retreeverDo like I did. A TSX got the best of both worlds.
16feet long a pass through shot 110yds. DRT
Mike
Michael Podwika... DRSS bigbores and hunting
www.pvt.co.za " MAKE THE SHOT " 450#2 Famars
11 February 2011, 01:58
L. David KeithWow Mike, that Croc blow'd up good, real good! Congrats again on taking a huge dinocroc. Pierre knows where to find some giants!
Cheers,
David
Gray Ghost Hunting Safaris
http://grayghostsafaris.com Phone: 615-860-4333
Email: hunts@grayghostsafaris.com
NRA Benefactor
DSC Professional Member
SCI Member
RMEF Life Member
NWTF Guardian Life Sponsor
NAHC Life Member
Rowland Ward - SCI Scorer
Took the wife the Eastern Cape for her first hunt:
http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6881000262Hunting in the Stormberg, Winterberg and Hankey Mountains of the Eastern Cape 2018
http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4801073142Hunting the Eastern Cape, RSA May 22nd - June 15th 2007
http://forums.accuratereloadin...=810104007#810104007 16 Days in Zimbabwe: Leopard, plains game, fowl and more:
http://forums.accuratereloadin...=212108409#212108409Natal: Rhino, Croc, Nyala, Bushbuck and more
http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6341092311 Recent hunt in the Eastern Cape, August 2010: Pics added
http://forums.accuratereloadin...261039941#926103994110 days in the Stormberg Mountains
http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7781081322Back in the Stormberg Mountains with friends: May-June 2017
http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6001078232"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading" - Thomas Jefferson
Every morning the Zebra wakes up knowing it must outrun the fastest Lion if it wants to stay alive. Every morning the Lion wakes up knowing it must outrun the slowest Zebra or it will starve. It makes no difference if you are a Zebra or a Lion; when the Sun comes up in Africa, you must wake up running......
"If you're being chased by a Lion, you don't have to be faster than the Lion, you just have to be faster than the person next to you."
11 February 2011, 05:15
D. NelsonFWI I Shot 2...both with .375 .300 gr. TBBC.
1st one was a brain shot, 2nd one was a spine shot. They both were dead on the spot. Of course, the brain shot croc wasn't pretty, but the taxidermist made it look like it was.
Regards, D. Nelson
11 February 2011, 05:55
Alaska HunterThere's a lot a people here with much more experience than I on Corc's but if I hunt them again I'll continue to shoot them in the spine.
Also I'll use a soft as they're more accurate than a solid and shot placement is critical on big lizards.
11 February 2011, 06:48
SaeedI have shot quite a few crocs, all with either Barnes X or our own Walterhog bullets.
Trouble with hunting crocs is that one does not have a choice of his shot.
I have shot ones broadside, I have shot ones that were facing me, and I have shot ones that were facing away.
One has to take the shot that is available at the time.
11 February 2011, 06:56
Aaron Neilsonquote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
I have shot quite a few crocs, all with either Barnes X or our own Walterhog bullets.
Trouble with hunting crocs is that one does not have a choice of his shot.
I have shot ones broadside, I have shot ones that were facing me, and I have shot ones that were facing away.
One has to take the shot that is available at the time.
Exactly!!
Aaron Neilson
Global Hunting Resources
303-619-2872: Cell
globalhunts@aol.com
www.huntghr.com 11 February 2011, 11:44
fairgamequote:
Originally posted by retreever:
Do like I did. A TSX got the best of both worlds.
16feet long a pass through shot 110yds. DRT
Mike
That's the way Mike and your taxidermist will sort that out for you.
Even if a soft does not hit the brain maybe a fragment of it will. As you can see in this picture the shock has cracked the skull almost down to it's nose. Another consideration.
ROYAL KAFUE LTD
Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com
Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144
Instagram - kafueroyal
11 February 2011, 12:19
fairgameThis croc was seen lying up on a sand bank and the closest shooting distance was 120 yards (ranged). We went back sighted in the .416 at this distance, went over the neck shot and bullet placement. I always point out dead center (neck) and ask the client to shoot one cm below that mark. Makes the shooter concentrate better.
The bullet holes are just above the white dots. First behind the smile which was not so funny for the croc. Second middle neck and two in point of the shoulder.
ROYAL KAFUE LTD
Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com
Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144
Instagram - kafueroyal
11 February 2011, 20:26
BlacktailerI read the article last night. He based his "35% more lost with softs" statement after he had set up an experiment of shooting 100 crocs with solids and 100 crocs with softs. He analyzed shot placement with post mortems to make sure they were all truly brain shot. Sounds like he has a fair amount of experience.
Have gun- Will travel
The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark
11 February 2011, 20:57
fairgamequote:
Originally posted by Blacktailer:
I read the article last night. He based his "35% more lost with softs" statement after he had set up an experiment of shooting 100 crocs with solids and 100 crocs with softs. He analyzed shot placement with post mortems to make sure they were all truly brain shot. Sounds like he has a fair amount of experience.
Sorry my subscription was pulled by AHG. Who is this so called expert who has practiced on 200 crocs?
Are we talking reptiles or those funny slip on shoes here?
ROYAL KAFUE LTD
Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com
Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144
Instagram - kafueroyal
11 February 2011, 22:49
Frostbitquote:
Originally posted by fairgame:
Are we talking reptiles or those funny slip on shoes here?
You owe me a keyboard.
12 February 2011, 02:41
Blacktailerquote:
Originally posted by fairgame:
Sorry my subscription was pulled by AHG. Who is this so called expert who has practiced on 200 crocs?
Are we talking reptiles or those funny slip on shoes here?
His name is Graham Cawood. He was culling crocs on Lake Cahora Bassa and the Zambezi below the dam.
You should renew with AHG. Certainly one of the best African mags (or Gazettes?)
Have gun- Will travel
The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark
12 February 2011, 04:16
Michael RobinsonYes, indeed. Very good and often thought-provoking articles in every issue.
Thanks, Blacktailer.
Mr. Cawood has made a bit of a career out of crocs and has killed more of them than most of us will ever even see.
Which is why his observations regarding the effectiveness of solids, as compared with softs, intrigued me in the first place.
Here is precisely what he says:
. . . I quickly realized that when hitting the brain with a solid, the crocodile doesn't move - so much that you sometimes think you've missed!
When hitting the brain with a soft point, the tail always flicks, so much so that in some cases it generates enough momentum to propel the crocodile into the water. We've managed to grab most of these crocodiles and saw that the shots were spot-on target.
It's clear to me that a brain shot with a soft point allows the croc more movement and increases the risk of losing it if water is close by. If there's only a short distance between the croc and the water - a yard or two - use a solid! . . . I frankly find it hard to believe, but hesitate to doubt anyone with as much experience as Mr. Cawood.
Hence my general public question.
Mike
Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer.
12 February 2011, 06:21
fairgamequote:
Originally posted by Blacktailer:
quote:
Originally posted by fairgame:
Sorry my subscription was pulled by AHG. Who is this so called expert who has practiced on 200 crocs?
Are we talking reptiles or those funny slip on shoes here?
His name is Graham Cawood. He was culling crocs on Lake Cahora Bassa and the Zambezi below the dam.
You should renew with AHG. Certainly one of the best African mags (or Gazettes?)
You do not understand. I am blacklisted.
ROYAL KAFUE LTD
Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com
Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144
Instagram - kafueroyal
12 February 2011, 07:13
Michael RobinsonBlacklisted?
That might very well change my opinion of this publication.
Can't help but wonder how that could happen.
Mike
Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer.