Ok, so what is a Civilian to do???

What is your best choice for a PPR???

Well for most, I would recommend a 16" barreled AR 15.

I would want good iron sights, zeroed in, and some kind of Optic. Aimpoint, EO Tec, or the Leupold CQT, are great choices for up close, a 3 or 4x extender, for the first 2 above, or ACOG for distance, is a good choice...

With soft or HP ammo the 223 is plenty good...

I would also put at least one light, I use two, and a LASER IS NOT A BAD IDEA...

Lube your AR with Break Free and it will work...


IF you live in the toolies... or just cannot go with a 223 then a M1A, or a "AR" in 308 is a good choice.

If you have had your "stuff" for a while, and have an H&K 91 or an FN FAL then you are good to go...
Like wise a Garand in 30/06 or 308, for a fella that knows how to use it, will DO THE JOB...

The key is, to have a bunch of ammo, and a bunch or magazines/clips... And have your rifle sighted in...

Your choices are good ones and have/had all that you mention, but reduced my personal protection firearms to two basic ones. Sidearm/revolver is Ruger Blackhawk Conv. w/ 45ACP cylinder and companion 10.5" barrel Auto Ord. Thompson w/ either 30rnd stick mags or 50rnd drum. Runs like a "sew'n machine." Out to 50yds. pretty effective. Antiquainted I know and certainly nothing high tech, but they work and like Jeff Cooper said when asked why he liked the 45, "cause they don't make a 46."

I guess I'm getting old and cranky. I see M-4s with so much crap hung on them I'm betting they weigh as much as the old M-60, less tripod.
Have they made a tactical coffee grinder to work off the batteries powering the flash light, night scope, lazer range finder, red dot alternative sighting device, radio, cell phone, Ipod, GPS,etc.
Personally I think an AR10-a4, back up ironsight and an Eotech. If I need more then that I'll go hide.

Jim

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Ok, so what is a Civilian to do???

What is your best choice for a PPR???

Well for most, I would recommend a 16" barreled AR 15.

I would want good iron sights, zeroed in, and some kind of Optic. Aimpoint, EO Tec, or the Leupold CQT, are great choices for up close, a 3 or 4x extender, for the first 2 above, or ACOG for distance, is a good choice...

With soft or HP ammo the 223 is plenty good...

I would also put at least one light, I use two, and a LASER IS NOT A BAD IDEA...

Lube your AR with Break Free and it will work...


IF you live in the toolies... or just cannot go with a 223 then a M1A, or a "AR" in 308 is a good choice.

If you have had your "stuff" for a while, and have an H&K 91 or an FN FAL then you are good to go...
Like wise a Garand in 30/06 or 308, for a fella that knows how to use it, will DO THE JOB...

The key is, to have a bunch of ammo, and a bunch or magazines/clips... And have your rifle sighted in...

And a backpack full of lube oil to keep the AR running.

Arkypete,
You hit the nail on the head w/ some of the 15's I see at local ranges. Deputy friend of mine who is a good law officer, but his 15 has more sight systems, bi pods, mono pods, rails, silencer, etc. than you can imagine. To beat it all, he usually shows up with a vest/pack system which has a backup replacement for all those items attached to the rifle itself! Now, if I could just get him to stay away from that bench and learn to shoot off hand, sitting, kneeling, prone, rapid and slow fire, he would be fine, but I don't think he could pick up the rifle from prone without asistance. No question about it, that 15 platform as they say, lends itself to a whole array of "bolt on goodies."

I prefer the term Sport Utility Rifle, something the soccer mommies can identify with.

Killed enough deer with a 5.56mm to know it's not the ideal deer rifle but it does make a mess internally, probably enough to convince a bad guy to go somewhere else. Everyone can shoot one from the 100 pound lady to the 6'8" 350# exlinebacker. Ammo is relatively cheap and available as are magazine and various tactical gadgets (some of dubious tactical worth).

About the only thing the .223/5.56 doesn't do well is shoot into/thru vehicles but I've shot up enough junk cars to know it's better than any handgun and does well enough to make things hot even behind a vehicle.

MFD, I know who you're talking about. Nice to have someone who tests all the new stuff on his dime.

Make mine a M4gery 16" carbine with a free float tube lined with rails. Iron sights and Eotech along with a white light will do for me, I don't need the stealth can opener.

actually if it came down to it i kinda like my aug

Oh, boy. Here we go!

"Personal protection" are the operative words. Define, in reasonable terms, what this means to you and your family in your everyday lives. Couple this definition with your mental preparation, knowledge of the law, physical abilities and shooting skills, and then make your decisions.

Personal protection doesn't mean you are an assaulter, breacher, sniper, or whatever.

Even a well tuned iron-sighted lever gun with hot reloads can be a very effective "PP" rifle for some life styles.

I live in the mountains. My truck rifle is a scope-sighted, short-barreled Kimber bolt gun in 223.

Around the house I have both a Benelli M2 tactical and an M4 with both iron and EoTech sights in our bedroom. No lights or other attachments. I have a 1911 hidden and available on each of the three floors of my house. (No kids to worry about.)

Like you all, I see guys I have to laugh at. They are to guns and accessories what Emelda Marcos was to shoes.

Good thread, though. What say others?

I use a Rem 870 cut off to 16" with a pistol grip and 7 shot tube extension. No sights needed. Just use 00 and in the general direction of the problem. It works well inside of 30 yds. Beyond that, anything works.

Dogcat;

Class 2 shotgun? Or was that a typo-meant to be 18" min Bbl/28" min OAL? Just saying....

18" pump

quote:

Originally posted by MFD:
Arkypete,
You hit the nail on the head w/ some of the 15's I see at local ranges. Deputy friend of mine who is a good law officer, but his 15 has more sight systems, bi pods, mono pods, rails, silencer, etc. than you can imagine. To beat it all, he usually shows up with a vest/pack system which has a backup replacement for all those items attached to the rifle itself! Now, if I could just get him to stay away from that bench and learn to shoot off hand, sitting, kneeling, prone, rapid and slow fire, he would be fine, but I don't think he could pick up the rifle from prone without asistance. No question about it, that 15 platform as they say, lends itself to a whole array of "bolt on goodies."

Never fear the cop who sports a duty rig full of crap. Fear the cop who carries the minimal!!!! Thats called a "SALTY DOG."

btw: My home defense gun is a typical 14.5" M4 sporting a light. Very lightweight. Iron sights only.

My work rig is a LMT 14.5 MRP CQB w. Surefire pistol grip light, Troy folding front and BUIS, and ACOG. Great rifle but not needed for personal protection.

Long way of saying -- all depends upon use.

As some have said before...depends on what you are doing/using.

Short answer.

Whatever I have that's handy when TSHTF.

.223, .308, .30-06, heck a .470 NE will ruin someone's day.

I really doubt anyone except military actually CARRIES a rifle day in and out for "personal protection"

Why don't we define what a "personal protection rifle" is before we all start praising whatever it is we own?

Sounds like some think of them as "zombie killers", some as a long range weapon for defending a protected point (home room defense), some as a generalized home defense gun, and some as a truck or camp gun.

What are we defending against? feral dogs? Crats? 2 legged vermin? armed invasion? civil insurrection? a paramilitary opponent?

Until I know what I have to worry about I will keep on with a .45 ACP 1911 until I fight to my gun room and grab whatever I need.

I will say I have several rifles with various rails on them. Other than sights, I have never put anything on one- no goofy battle grips, attached lights, lasers, Dick Tracy pocket radios, or Playboy calendars made by Dillon Precision... Since I'm still posting, it hasn't killed me yet.

I don't use a rifle for personal protection. A Remington 870 is my choice for around the house. Anything further away than a shotgun blast has my permission to leave the fight.

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
I don't use a rifle for personal protection. A Remington 870 is my choice for around the house. Anything further away than a shotgun blast has my permission to leave the fight.

Terry

Thanks Terry, I needed a good laugh this morning.

Underfolder AK in 7.62 and/or a 12" Remington 870 "Witness Protection" model.

As my M4 with leupold VX4 1.75x5 on it is leaning on the wall next to me I guess you know what my choice is.

I win...
Keltek RFB, .308, uses FAL mags, 18" bbl Ambidextrous, 24.25" long, Loopy CQT, green laser and now has a TLR-1 light on it. Loaded with moderately hot Barnes TSX's



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Collins I like it. I like it a lot.

but does it work I haven't had much luck with keltek arms

Collins

I would like to hear more on how your "Bull Pup" 308 is doing.

Accuracy, rounds between cleaning, relalibility, etc.

I used a Steyr AUG for a while, "Bull Pups" are very handy.

For a 308 PPR, I like the concept.

how heavy is that 308?

Lloyd-

In the linked thread he says that with the scope and ammunition it's 11+ pounds.
Nice!

That's a Controlled Round Feed rifle too!
Neat.
from the kel-tec website:
"The patented, dual-extractor system maintains control of the case from the moment it leaves the magazine and upon firing, pulls the fired case from the chamber and lifts them to push them into an ejection chute above the barrel, where they exit."


All my training is on the ar15/m16 rifles/carbines.
Any one will do.

All this SHTF 'preparedness' fantasy...
Really guys.
A station wagon and a Big-Gulp full of rootbeer is going to be your best friend in that situation.
Use it to mow down the gang of dingleberries on the street corner on the way back to the fort, scrape the pulverized gray matter off whatever they're packing, and get back home to whatever is left there.
Repeat as necessary to 'complete the mission'

I've always said, the station wagon is a much more deadly tool than a carbine!
That and strangely enough, no one seems to see it coming!!




Collins-
I'm standing in line with 450NE waiting for a more detailed report on how that thing's working out for you -- accuracy, reliability, durability...
Have you tried to run that thing in freezing or near freezing temperatures yet?


Cheers
Tinker

Collins: Couldn't have said it better myself! Good job!
Personal protection rifle? This reminds me of those "tacti-tools" that showed up to the range sporting 5.11 clothing, hat and sunglasses, and carrying a huge soft bag with 10 magazines on the side and various scopes and accessories poking out all over it, and opens the bag to have an AR with 3 different uppers in the bag, all with various things hanging off of it. When asked questions about training and whatnot, responses varied from "none...just like the rifles" to "I went to front sight once."
Than they have a high-cost 1911 that they can barely hit a paper at 10yds with, however they come running up with a toothy smile and say it's the best that they've done.
I love seeing that kinda stuff at the range! To each his own, and good on them for having fun and supporting the 2nd amendment. I'm happy to see a majority of these guys are delighted to run around at the range and show off what they've got, and are supporting the shops around here.
That being said, it's a common occurrence and well, slightly disturbing in my eyes. Myself, having trained and having been there done that, have realized something. Of all the AR's I've seen, I probably wouldn't take a single one of them to the field with me, or in any altercation. Much ado has been said about the 5.56, and a fiendish following has developed over the M855 round. As it goes, if it's good enough for our military, it's good enough for me, as I've heard more than plenty.
Well it's not good enough for the military. Especially being in the FMJ / "Frangible" format that it's in. It sucks. Nuff said. Than these pretty AR's with 15 scopes and lighting equipments hanging off of it makes it unwieldy, unbalanced and also adds the complication of batteries and various other equipment that can fail. You can only do so much before it becomes downright impractical.
I'm notably paranoid, and do truly feel sorry for anyone attempting to break into my house. Currently, I have a no frills Remington 870 and a Winchester 1200 with a 10rd magazine hidden, as well as a Mossberg 500 with a pistol grip, 2 glock 21's, a glock 19, a Ruger super redhawk .480, a S&W 442, a Springfield 1911, a Ruger Mini-14 and a FN-FAL hidden throughout the house, as well as various knives hidden throughout for easy access. All my other firearms are sitting nice and pretty inside the gun safe.
Personally, if I were to have to get rid of the majority of my firearms, I would retain the Winchester 1200 with the 10rd magazine for home defense. For personal protection should I have to walk around with a rifle to protect myself (heaven forbid that day comes) I'll take my FN FAL and keep it iron sighted. If I needed a handgun as well, I'll take my Glock 21.

i dont live in CA so just have to ask, the ppr is it for walking around the house? seems like youre expecting company

Ive got one and even hunted with it this year. Problem is that its as heavy stripped as a ar15 is loaded with junk. if shit hit the fan i think my first grab would be my little 762x39 busmaster or my dpms sportical. Both are very reliable and LIGHT!!!

quote:

Originally posted by arkypete:
I guess I'm getting old and cranky. I see M-4s with so much crap hung on them I'm betting they weigh as much as the old M-60, less tripod.
Have they made a tactical coffee grinder to work off the batteries powering the flash light, night scope, lazer range finder, red dot alternative sighting device, radio, cell phone, Ipod, GPS,etc.
Personally I think an AR10-a4, back up ironsight and an Eotech. If I need more then that I'll go hide.

Jim

Good Gawd! Where do you guys live that hiding an aresenal around the house is a justifiable precaution? While I support your right to do so, I just wonder how neccessary it is. It sounds like you are preparing to defend an assult from a determined and capable attacking force not some stupid punk looking to steal grandma's silver so he can score a fix. Considering that fact that my loved ones are on the other side of a wall made of mostly drywall I would as that any rifle is a bad choice for home defense. Most pistols as well. If I really felt I needed to defend my home, a shotgun would be my first choice.

If you actually shot someone in your home there will be an investigation. If they find that your home is armed to fend of an invastion force from a small nation it may not affect whether or not any criminal charges are filed but it most certainly come in to play in the civil suite that will follow. And yes, it is likely that one will. The guy you shot, or his suvivors, will attempt to sue you. A jury in a civil suit only needs a majory vote and standards are lower than in a criminal trial. Don't believe me just ask OJ. The lawyer will roll out your arsenal and it is likely they will be able to convince enough of the jury that you were actively seeking a confrontation that you will lose.

Bruce R,
yea, but you will be alive to defend yourself in court.
I think it goes "judged by twelve or carried by six"
I have to say, that it is nice to have a weapon handy, but, all things in moderation.

and back on topic, what is wrong with a SKS?
I have a couple beaters, that I don't mind treating them like tools, and they go bang every time. Accurate enough, strong cartridge, I treat them like an axe or a shovel, and they are not fussy.(Fussy guns are in the safe)

For the type of thing that has much probability of happening, it is important that the rifle is close at hand as often as possible.

Happy New Year

One thing to note is that the OP is from Texas where home invasions are a real problem.
And unfortunately that problem may spread to other parts of the US.

As one poster said "all things in moderation" and you have to balance need versus safety but I don't believe having several guns available would become a factor in a justifiable shooting.

The phrase, "home invasion" provides a lot of legal cover to someone defending life and limb in their own home I would think irregardless of how many firearms one had in the home. Recently had such an occurence in so called "nice neighbohood" and roughed up the family members, stole money/articles, and the homeowner's gun to boot! Had there been a shooting or even death of the intruders, I doubt any jury in our area would have returned any verdict other than justifiable shooting. The point made about all the legal actions that can occur is a real one for consideration, and not to be taken lightly, but in today's societal problems, it may well be necessary to take lethal action to prevent injury or death to you or your family members.

I use a 870 and a Browning High Power around the house. On the road I carry a 4" 629. I have other guns but I all ways run back to one of these three.

Mine is a 7.62x39 AR. C products makes reliable magazines. Have spare parts and a .223 upper for it.

Imho the Saiga 12 guage has no equal. 12 round mags or 20 round drums it puts more lead on target faster than anything this side of a Saw. 6 pounds light reccoil 19 inch barrel...its almost not fair. DD

You can't beat an AK or an SKS. Both proven to work any time any place, for a long time. A 12ga pump world also be hard to beat.

I just gave my beloved papa my four-inch .357 and my 870 Shorty with front/rear pistola grips. I never fired the 870 in the two years I owned it. I just bought it because Feinswine doesn't want me to have it. It's all about them pistol grips, you know...

Very fond of my little original M2 carbine with para folding stock. Has a trijicon sight on these days as I am getting older...but it sits strapped to the (inside) roof of my landrover veery nicely- out of sight and mind until needed. Fits easily in the trackers pack- also fully concealed until I need it.

weighs less than an AK, more accurate...hits harder with SP than the 7.62x39 does with ball, and never had a stoppage with 15rnd mags.

quote:

Has a trijicon sight on these days as I am getting older but it sits strapped to the (inside) roof of my Landrover very nicely-- out of sight and mind until needed.

I am sorry you live in a nation where the political and economic climate all but forces men to carry arms for their protection. The Freedom to carry arms is one thing. The necessity to do so is another. I pray you never have to use it-- and that you still have it when you need it...

Sweet!

quote:

Originally posted by Collins:
I win...
Keltek RFB, .308, uses FAL mags, 18" bbl Ambidextrous, 24.25" long, Loopy CQT, green laser and now has a TLR-1 light on it. Loaded with moderately hot Barnes TSX's



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18 inch para fal

quote:

Originally posted by jnc91:
18 inch para fal

That will work, I used to have one...

I cannot help it my favorite is still a H&K 91....

But there are no flies [not any big ones anyway ] on a Para Fal.

Serious Hardware for Serious Work...

Winchester M-1300 Defender with 00 buck. No lights, no lasers needed for the dark, just shoot in the general direction of the noise........Uh Oh, Honey wuz that you over there????????