quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
I didn't know that the 5.45x39 used a bullet smaller than .224. That does make it odd for reloading. Also, those dies are not inexpensive.

For cheap shooting and expendable brass, it's hard to beat a 7.62x39.

KB

KB, The only other die set I know of was a custom group buy of Lee dies. You can get the bullets. Some people even swage down 224 bullets. Unless you're going to buy tons of ammo for that caliber I'd stay away from it. That's not to say it's not fun.

You haven't quite made up your mind what caliber you want an AR in have you?

As I've said all along, my two preferences are the 6.5 Grendel (or equivilent), and the 308 (AR10). Second choice in AR15 is the 6.8 SPC. I mentioned the 458 SOCOM, but that's for fun. Third choice in AR15 is the 7.62x39. Sometimes a good deal drives the purchase choice.

I like the 7.62x39, especially with handloads using 150gr bullets. Barnes also makes a TSX 123gr bullet in .311, which may be the ideal hunting bullet for this cartridge. I will definately not turn down a good deal on an upper. That's what I'm seeing - good deals on 7.62x39 upper assemblies, which would get me shooting pretty quickly. It would serve my purposes and I could take my time getting the 6.5 Grendel.

Aside from it being adequate, just barely, the other nice thing about the 7.62x39 is the brass is cheap. I just gave away about 500 pieces to a friend, thinking I would never use it. I can pick up that much more next summer at the range, clean it, FL size, and shoot it once, and not worry about picking it up for a second loading. New PRVI brass in 7.62x39 is cheap from Graffs. I still have about 100 S&B once fired, and maybe 400 new Winchester pieces. I was going to use the Win brass necked down to 6.5, and give away the S & B, but now that I've decided to get an AR, that brass may come in handy.

About a week ago I noticed that I also somehow have two sets (maybe three) of dies for the 7.62x39, RCBS and Hornady. I can't remember why I have more than one set. Most likely because I forgot that I already had a set, and bought another. Has that happened to you?

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
As I've said all along, my two preferences are the 6.5 Grendel (or equivilent), and the 308 (AR10). Second choice in AR15 is the 6.8 SPC. I mentioned the 458 SOCOM, but that's for fun. Third choice in AR15 is the 7.62x39. Sometimes a good deal drives the purchase choice.

I like the 7.62x39, especially with handloads using 150gr bullets. Barnes also makes a TSX 123gr bullet in .311, which may be the ideal hunting bullet for this cartridge. I will definately not turn down a good deal on an upper. That's what I'm seeing - good deals on 7.62x39 upper assemblies, which would get me shooting pretty quickly. It would serve my purposes and I could take my time getting the 6.5 Grendel.

Aside from it being adequate, just barely, the other nice thing about the 7.62x39 is the brass is cheap. I just gave away about 500 pieces to a friend, thinking I would never use it. I can pick up that much more next summer at the range, clean it, FL size, and shoot it once, and not worry about picking it up for a second loading. New PRVI brass in 7.62x39 is cheap from Graffs. I still have about 100 S&B once fired, and maybe 400 new Winchester pieces. I was going to use the Win brass necked down to 6.5, and give away the S & B, but now that I've decided to get an AR, that brass may come in handy.

About a week ago I noticed that I also somehow have two sets (maybe three) of dies for the 7.62x39, RCBS and Hornady. I can't remember why I have more than one set. Most likely because I forgot that I already had a set, and bought another. Has that happened to you?

KB

The biggest issue with a 7.62x39 AR 15 is magazine reliability. Second is firing pin strike, but only with the steel case stuff as it has very hard military primers. That wouldn't be an issue with commercial ammo or reloads.

With that said RRA is coming out with a dedicated AR in that caiber called the AK LAR 47. Now listed to this, it uses actual AK magazines. I guess they didn't want to full with making a magazine to work with the standard AR 15 lower and magazine well.

Unless there is a low capacity magazine, I'm not interested. Just because it uses AK magazines may not be an advantage for me. I don't know for sure, because I'm not familiar with what magazines are available. As I said, it's very important to me that the rifle is handy, and the long banana clips offend my sensabilities.

Well, I did a quick search and see that there are low cap magazines available. The one's I'm seeing are polymer, which I suppose is good.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Unless there is a low capacity magazine, I'm not interested. Just because it uses AK magazines may not be an advantage for me. I don't know for sure, because I'm not familiar with what magazines are available. As I said, it's very important to me that the rifle is handy, and the long banana clips offend my sensabilities.

Well, I did a quick search and see that there are low cap magazines available. The one's I'm seeing are polymer, which I suppose is good.

KB

dang, son .. some times you come off as a negative nellie .. i am sure you are great and all,,, but dang

news flash.. there are more AK47s in the world than mausers... no joke... north of 100,000,000 of them

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Unless there is a low capacity magazine, I'm not interested. Just because it uses AK magazines may not be an advantage for me. I don't know for sure, because I'm not familiar with what magazines are available. As I said, it's very important to me that the rifle is handy, and the long banana clips offend my sensabilities.

Well, I did a quick search and see that there are low cap magazines available. The one's I'm seeing are polymer, which I suppose is good.

KB

The advantage is that the AR would then have an known good very reliable magazine, not the fact alone that it used one. There hasn't been many really good reliable magazine for the AR in that caliber.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
dang, son .. some times you come off as a negative nellie .. i am sure you are great and all,,, but dang

news flash.. there are more AK47s in the world than mausers... no joke... north of 100,000,000 of them

Sorry, Jeffe, I'm just an experienced skeptic. And in re ARs & AKs I'm just ignorant. Never studied them, and perhaps worse, I have simply ignored them. I'm coming up to speed - everything will be alright.

It's ok to not know something - right?

KB

SJ,
I did a quick search on the RRA LAR 47. Looks really neat. However, I'm curious to see what they actually sell for. MSRP is $1,400.

Ummm. Could be this is why I'm seeing good deals on conventional uppers in 7.62x39.

I'm sure that the firearm (LAR 47) will be quite satisfactory.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
SJ,
I did a quick search on the RRA LAR 47. Looks really neat. However, I'm curious to see what they actually sell for. MSRP is $1,400.

Ummm. Could be this is why I'm seeing good deals on conventional uppers in 7.62x39.

I'm sure that the firearm (LAR 47) will be quite satisfactory.

KB

KB....See,this is what I mean about the internet BS that goes around. I talked to a Mr Blick at RRA and get this, they don't even have a price set on it yet. In fact they are working out some minor detailed with the lower yet. Don't even believe anything you read in Blogs. I'm not saying that is where you heard that, but straight from the horses mouth I asked Mr. Blick what's the price. They don't have it yet. I also asked if they will sell just the lower. I asked if it would work on an 223 upper because you can buy AK 223 mags. No was the answer but he did say that's interesting about the 223 AK maga. Watch those SOB's come out with a 223 version using AK mags. There is no hold open device but I told him you can use the Yugo magazines as they have a special follower in them that hold open even AK's on the last shot. He said yeah you could do that.

So, is there a hold open device on the std AK mags for the 7.62x39?

KB

It is great not to know something. It is not so great to be negative to exclusion about the same.

We all have faults, Jeffe. I promise to work on mine. Meanwhile, your forgivness for being a dumbpuck is appreciated.

After all, the reason I started this thread, was to learn something that my knowledge bank is deficient on. Best to learn from those who have been there already, and study such things, far ahead of me.

Another thing to consider about the LAR-47 is that it's a dedicated platform to the 7.62x39, which apparantly means that one of the desirable features of the AR is lost - the ability to swap uppers. Maybe not such a big deal, since the 7.62x39 is a really good round to have, if only one choice is available. After all, if a guy wanted another, it's a good excuse to start over with another complete rifle, with a std lower.

The one thing that is at the top of the list for me is my complaint is almost moot about the AR flinging brass away, with the 7.62x39. The only way that becomes an issue is if I'm using Lapua brass, for example, and I doubt that I'll do that. For my purposes, premium brass isn't necessary, in this instance. Range pick-up brass will most likely be plentiful and suitable, especially if I sort it by brands. I won't know for sure, until I try it. Maybe I'm still showing my ignorance, and there are issues peculiar to the AR that I don't know about re the brass used. I'm just going off what I know about range scrounged brass in a bolt action. It's not the best, but it works plenty good. I've got a 300WM which that's all I feed it, and get excellent accuracy.

So, Jeffe, please excuse me, I'm just rambling a bit here, thinking about issues, and possibilities. The thought occured that the 5.45x39 has a relatively straight walled case, as I understand it - straighter than the 7.62x39. There are AK mags for the 5.45x39. The 6.5 Grendel has a rather straight walled case, very little taper. Hummmm

Seems to me like the Grendel might feed out of a 5.45x39 AK mag. What do you think, SJ?

KB

Yes KB the Yugo AK magazines have a follower that pops up high and stops the bolt. It's sort of like the Winchester Model 100 magazine fed semi auto sporting rifles if you ever handled one of those.

I don't know what you and Jeff are talking about, but I'm not making fun of anyone here about not knowing something. You said after all you started the thread to learn some stuff and I'm trying to help you with what little I know.

About swapping out uppers I do believe the 223 upper would work with the AR 15 AK lower and the 223 AK magazines. Here's what I think: CMMG makes 308 AR receiver and now make the complete rifle, but they also make 308 AR lowers that take the German G3 HK magazines and it looks exactly like RRA's new AK lower in that the mag well is cut at an extreme angle. The reason for this is AK magazines just don't slide into an AK like a magazine does in an AR 15. You hinge and lock them in. Well the G3 mag is kind of like that, but a little less abrupt then the AK. Well there is a modification to the AR upper you put on that CMMG 308 lower and that is the mags on AR's protrude ever so slightly above the lower receiver. Well the G3 mag is wider so the very bottom of the upper receiver has to be relieved for that thicker magazine to fit into it. This would primarily be the feed lip area. Now RRA won't tell you shit about that because they don't want you to know so you can't play around swapping things. So if that is it just think how many other rounds an AK 223 magazine would feed...like the 300 Whisper and it's twin the 300 ACC Blackout. Believe it or not you probably could even get a few 6.5's and 6.8's to work. The 50 Beowulf basically uses a slight modified (on the lips) 20 round AR 15 magazine.

SJ,

Jeffe is messing with me, and my best option is to be humble, because he's got a point, and after some of the stuff I've pulled, I probably deserve it. If I can't be humble from time to time, I have better give up. It's not about anything you are saying. I'm appreciative for your info.

Besides, on the big cyberspace chalkboard, Jeffe has a slash mark. Next time it's my turn.

KB

Question?

Is the AK 47 magazine interchagable with the AK 74?

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Question?

Is the AK 47 magazine interchagable with the AK 74?

KB

That's the 5.45x39 AK. Don't confuse that round with the 7.62x39 because it's not 7.62 necked down, it's actually a new round and the diameter and head size is much smaller then the the 7.62x39. I don't think the mags would feed right. They might interchange between the two rifles though.

I'm glad we cleared that up. I was presuming too much, thinking because they are both 39mm long, surely they share the same rim size. I was thinking the 5.45x39 shared the same case as the 220 Russian, and 22 PPC. I couldn't imagine the Russians coming up with anything new in the zoo. My mistake.

That was wishful thinking on my part, but it was just too good to be true. If the 5.45x39 shared the same parent case as the 7.62x39, that would just make it too simple.

It kinda comes down to a comparison of the pros and cons re the 6.5 Grendel and the 7.62x39.

The Grendel wins on at least two accounts. Lower that will accept multi uppers. Better ballistics. Cons = no range pick-up brass; small price to pay.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
I'm glad we cleared that up. I was presuming too much, thinking because they are both 39mm long, surely they share the same rim size. I was thinking the 5.45x39 shared the same case as the 220 Russian, and 22 PPC. I couldn't imagine the Russians coming up with anything new in the zoo. My mistake.

That was wishful thinking on my part, but it was just too good to be true. If the 5.45x39 shared the same parent case as the 7.62x39, that would just make it too simple.

It kinda comes down to a comparison of the pros and cons re the 6.5 Grendel and the 7.62x39.

The Grendel wins on at least two accounts. Lower that will accept multi uppers. Better ballistics. Cons = no range pick-up brass; small price to pay.

KB

Don't feel bad, when I first heard of that round I thought the same think because of the 39

KB, don't discount the standard 7.62X39 AR upper. It's only a matter of finding magazines that are reliable and staying away from those that aren't. C-Mag made very good 7.62X39 AR mags. They do make reliable 7.62X39 AR-15 mags.

The 5.45X39 AR-15 is an excellent choice for a plinking rifle too. The fantastic thing about them is there is no need to worry about reloading for it. You can't build it for the price they sell it for! I bought a S&W M&P AR-15 chambered in it about 3 years ago. Back then you could get a a 1080 rnd Bulgarian tin for about $120. My rifle actually likes the stuff. Most groups run about 1.5"-2" (5 shoots @100yds) but every now and then I can shoot MOA with it. It's accurate enough to keep it interesting and it's so nice to go plinking on the cheap every now and then. When I bought the rifle I bought enough ammo to wear the barrel out. Ammo selection is somewhat limited but who cares, it's a plinking rifle. IMO, I feel like this rifle is an excellent choice for people that already have another AR. Because of ammo selection, etc. I don't think it makes a good "main rifle." The down side for you is they only sell 30rd mags for this chamber.

It sounds like you're planning on a collection now. I have always held my collection to 3. If I want another I sell one I already own. If not I tend to have rifles that don't get shot enough to justify owning them. Right now my three are:

1. .223 with a 20" 1 in 7.7" Krieger barrel. This one is extremely fun at the range and takes an occasional deer. It shoots tiny groups with 68gn match kings.

2. 6.5 Grendal (pictured above) It's light and extremely accurate. I had planned on hunting with it this year but never got around to it. It's an excellent rifle. My only complaint about the cartridge is the "cheap to shoot" factor is missing with this round which is somthing I've grown use to with an AR platform.

3. 5.45X39 S&W. Just a fun rifle for doing anything from casual paper punching to flipping tin cans down by the creek. It's fun, it's cheap to shoot and it's reasonably accurate. Just a fun plinking gun that is affordable to shoot.

Those may give you some ideas.


I would highly suggest you buy some tools and learn assemble them yourself. The neat thing about this is you'll end up with exactly the rifle you want and you'll save enough $$$ to justify the tools.

Terry

I disagree TCI, if you want to plink and let the brass lay so as not to reload, then you can buy or build a quality dedicated 22 rimfire AR 15.

The number one reason all the AR 15 manufacturers don't main stream an AR 15 in 7.62x39 is because the rifle was never designed to operate with that cartridge, mainly the magazine. One magazine working doesn't constitute magazines working. If that were the case why did RRA go drastic to maker their AK LAR 47? I'll tell you, because AR 15's in that caliber don't work reliably without redesigning the magazine well. I built an AR 15 upper in that caliber and guess what, I was using my 6.5 Grendel magazines with it. Did I load them to full capacity? No The 7.62x39 requires a more curved magazine then the AR 15 mag well will allow and most mag manufacturers will made a curved magazine that goes straight right at the mag well and they just don't cut it.

KB, build a standard AR 15 in 7.62x39 and mark my words, you'll be sorry. Maybe someday RRA will sell just the lower of their new rifle.

As mentioned, the 5.45 isn't more popular for handloading because of the bullet diameter (.221"), the cost ($0.12 or less per round for factory loads), and the fact that we already have the .222 Remington.

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
I disagree TCI, if you want to plink and let the brass lay so as not to reload, then you can buy or build a quality dedicated 22 rimfire AR 15..

The .22LR AR-15's are nothing more than toy's. I wouldn't even consider them a training tool. If one wants a .22lr there are much better choices than the recent AR-15 look alikes. I wouldn't bother with a conversion kit either, the barrel isn't the right twist for a .22LR

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:

The number one reason all the AR 15 manufacturers don't main stream an AR 15 in 7.62x39 is because the rifle was never designed to operate with that cartridge, mainly the magazine. One magazine working doesn't constitute magazines working. If that were the case why did RRA go drastic to maker their AK LAR 47? I'll tell you, because AR 15's in that caliber don't work reliably without redesigning the magazine well. I built an AR 15 upper in that caliber and guess what, I was using my 6.5 Grendel magazines with it. Did I load them to full capacity? No The 7.62x39 requires a more curved magazine then the AR 15 mag well will allow and most mag manufacturers will made a curved magazine that goes straight right at the mag well and they just don't cut it.

Actual experiece tells me you're wrong on this one too. I've personaly owned a 7.63X39 upper and after I found magazines that worked the rifle functioned flawlessly. BTW, the 7.63X39 upper is not uncommon by any stetch of the imagination. lots of companies make them and thousands upon thousands of owners are happy with them. As far as magazines go, Cmag makes a good one, Colt use to, I'm not sure if they still do or not. After finding the Cmags I didn't need to look any further. Finding a few good mags is no big deal. The 7.62X39 was never a mainstream AR round, but niether was the Grendel or a lot of other cartridges the AR is now chambered in. For a plinking round it's a good choice.


Terry

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
I disagree TCI, if you want to plink and let the brass lay so as not to reload, then you can buy or build a quality dedicated 22 rimfire AR 15..

The .22LR AR-15's are nothing more than toy's. I wouldn't even consider them a training tool. If one wants a .22lr there are much better choices than the recent AR-15 look alikes. I wouldn't bother with a conversion kit either, the barrel isn't the right twist for a .22LR

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:

The number one reason all the AR 15 manufacturers don't main stream an AR 15 in 7.62x39 is because the rifle was never designed to operate with that cartridge, mainly the magazine. One magazine working doesn't constitute magazines working. If that were the case why did RRA go drastic to maker their AK LAR 47? I'll tell you, because AR 15's in that caliber don't work reliably without redesigning the magazine well. I built an AR 15 upper in that caliber and guess what, I was using my 6.5 Grendel magazines with it. Did I load them to full capacity? No The 7.62x39 requires a more curved magazine then the AR 15 mag well will allow and most mag manufacturers will made a curved magazine that goes straight right at the mag well and they just don't cut it.

Actual experiece tells me you're wrong on this one too. I've personaly owned a 7.63X39 upper and after I found magazines that worked the rifle functioned flawlessly. BTW, the 7.63X39 upper is not uncommon by any stetch of the imagination. lots of companies make them. As far as magazines go, Cmag makes a good one, Colt use to, I'm not sure if they still do. After finding the Cmags I didn't need to look any further. Finding a few good mags is no big deal. The 7.62X39 was never a mainstream AR round, but niether was the Grendel or a lot of other cartridges the AR is now chambered in. For a plinking round it's a good choice.


Terry

So your results speak for all the millions of shooters in the U.S.? Maybe all the major manufacturers should hire you as a consultant. I knew you were going to say your magazines worked flawless. I'll get you the engineers email at RRA and you can write him and prevent his company from wasting money as they can use the standard AR 15 platform.

You still haven't answered why RRA changed the lower. A sales gimmich? I highly doubt it in this age of bad economy.

One of the major 7.62x39 bolt manufacturers quit making them, can you guess which one?

Why would you call a 22 rimfire AR a toy? Are you one of those that think 22 rimfires are in the air rifle class?

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:


So your results speak for all the millions of shooters in the U.S.?

No, but you obviously think you yours do. There are thousands of HAPPY 7.62X39 AR-15 owners who have functional, reliable rifles. I guess they forgot to ask you before they bought them.

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
Maybe all the major manufacturers should hire you as a consultant. I knew you were going to say your magazines worked flawless.

Should I lie for your benifit?

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
I'll get you the engineers email at RRA and you can write him and prevent his company from wasting money as they can use the standard AR 15 platform.

Why would I want to do that? The company is free to build anything they want. It's sort or funny that you've never even seen it but you think it's a better mouse trap, say's alot.

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
You still haven't answered why RRA changed the lower. A sales gimmich? I highly doubt it in this age of bad economy.

As soon as my crystal ball warms up I'll be happy to share my clairvoyance with you.

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
One of the major 7.62x39 bolt manufacturers quit making them, can you guess which one? .

7.62x39 bolt?

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
Why would you call a 22 rimfire AR a toy? Are you one of those that think 22 rimfires are in the air rifle class?

Because it basicly is. If a person wants a .22LR there are much better choices than AR-15 wannabe clones. I own several .22LR's and like them, but not on wannabe platforms.

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:


So your results speak for all the millions of shooters in the U.S.?

No, but you obviously think you yours do. There are thousands of 7.62X39 upper owners who have functional, reliable rifles. I guess they forgot to ask you before they bought them.

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
Maybe all the major manufacturers should hire you as a consultant. I knew you were going to say your magazines worked flawless.

Should I lie for your benifit?

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
I'll get you the engineers email at RRA and you can write him and prevent his company from wasting money as they can use the standard AR 15 platform.

Why would I want to do that? The company is free to build anything they want. It's sort or funny that you've never even seen it but you think it's a better mouse trap, say's alot.

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
You still haven't answered why RRA changed the lower. A sales gimmich? I highly doubt it in this age of bad economy.

As soon as my crystal ball warms up I'll be happy to share my clairvoyance with you.

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
One of the major 7.62x39 bolt manufacturers quit making them, can you guess which one? .

7.62x39 bolt?

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
Why would you call a 22 rimfire AR a toy? Are you one of those that think 22 rimfires are in the air rifle class?

Because it basicly is. If a person wants a .22LR there are much better choices than AR-15 wannabe clones. I own several .22LR's and like them, but not on wannabe platforms.

I'll bet you're a Castboolit member, if so that explains it all.

I can tell you that you are wrong about the 7.62x39 AR's. They've died off pretty much. Sure if you search you can find some stuff. The first to drop that caliber, and who was possibly the first to bring it out on the AR, was Colt. There are just too many other comparable rounds (in power) that function through the AR a whole lot more reliable.

I noticed that they make 45ACP uppers for the AR15. Should make a good elk and moose rifle.

BTW, the fellow who I gave all that range pick-up 7.62x39 brass shoots an AR15. He's a weasely little phucker, who shoots deer with a 223, and aparantly stole a 7.62x39 upper somewhere. Now he thinks he's got a bear gun. I'm gonna ask him how his upper feeds.

Yes, it may come as a surprise, but I do have friends who shoot deer with a 223. But I call them names. There are lots of weird but interesting people in Alaska, and the best place to meet them is hang out at the range, and compete with them in scrounging once-fired brass. The most interesting, if they will talk, smell of wood smoke, wear camo and a 45, and tote an AR. The ones who don't talk are kinda scary.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
I noticed that they make 45ACP uppers for the AR15. Should make a good elk and moose rifle.

BTW, the fellow who I gave all that range pick-up 7.62x39 brass shoots an AR15. He's a weasely little phucker, who shoots deer with a 223, and aparantly stole a 7.62x39 upper somewhere. Now he thinks he's got a bear gun. I'm gonna ask him how his upper feeds.

Yes, it may come as a surprise, but I do have friends who shoot deer with a 223. But I call them names.

KB

KB, here's one for you, one of your kind of favorite calibers. Some fellow, from Alaska by the way, over on AR15.COM is wanting to build an AR 15 in 8mm Kurtz. Yeah the original first assault rifle cartridge from WWII used in the STg44. He had something to say about the 8mm too KB. He said he has shot more then his share of all the big game animals in Alaska (not Grizzly) with both 30 calibers and 8mm's and that the 8mm is the better killer even if it's a less potent round then a particular 30 caliber. So he wants to do this AR 15 in 8mm Kurtz subsonic with a big 200 some grain bullet. Hey this guy is machinist and gunsmith. I'll give you his info because if he's close you could get some work done from him cheap as he's not in the gunsmith business and already said he'll help folks. Before I forget this guy wants to do an 8mm-08 on an AR 10. That sounds like your gun to me.

I think at one time Olympic Arms (or is it Olympia) has done just about every pistol cartridge AR there was. There is also 7.62x25 Tokarev AR's floating around.

Hey, I wish you wouldn't quote my posts so much. I may not be done editing them.

I've delt with some Alaska machinists who say they just want to help. It's a very rare thing indeed to find one who can adequately mesh want with ability, and actually help.

That's the skeptic in me saying that, but it's based on experience, and the education is usually expensive. My most recent experience resulted in paying a fellow Alaskan for his gunsmithing services, and thanking him to boot, and keepng my mouth shut, not uttering a word of my dissatisfaction, then within a week sending the rifle to California to a gunsmith so he can correct the phuckups. It happen every now and then, but I work hard to avoid those issues. I take the blame, I should have left well enough alone, and I was trying to save money on shipping the rifle to California in the first place. My mistake.

I find the 338 Federal somewhat interesting in the AR, but I wouldn't bother with a wildcat.

The only pistol cartridge I'm interested in on a rifle platform is the 45ACP, and preferably the 45 Super, which is still subsonic.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Hey, I wish you wouldn't quote my posts so much. I may not be done editing them.

I've delt with some Alaska machinists who say they just want to help. It's a very rare thing indeed to find one who can adequately mesh want with ability, and actually help. My most recent experience resulted in paying a fellow Alaskan for his gunsmithing services, and thanking him to boot, and keepng my mouth shut, not uttering a word of my dissatisfaction, then within a week sending the rifle to California to a gunsmith so he can correct the phuckups. It happen every now and then, but I work hard to avoid those issues.

I find the 338 Federal somewhat interesting in the AR, but I wouldn't bother with a wildcat.

The only pistol cartridge I'm interested in on a rifle platform is the 45ACP, and preferably the 45 Super, which is still subsonic.

KB

Funny you mentioned that 338 because that "other Alaskan" is thinking of that on an AR 10 too. He also said that there is as much better difference between the 338 caliber compared to the 8mm as there is with the 8mm compared to the 30 caliber. What is it with you Alaskans and the 8mm? You know the 8mm Remington Magnum was a very good cartridge and it didn't do so well in popularity.

Hey you know now I read your post very thoroughly.

See, I wasn't done editing yet.

I'm busy now, researching the 8mm Kurtz.

Edited: Neat cartridge, probably better than the 7.62x39, but I don't know where to find brass or dies, and the modifications to the AR bolt and magazines would be a deal breaker to me, probably. Just not worth the trouble. Unreliable from several aspects.

Now, if Remington had used the case, necked down to 30 cal, and called it the 30 Rem AR, it would be a different story. But nooooo, that's too simple.

Here's a link to a picture that says a lot. Notice the straight walls of the Kurtz compared to the 7.62x39. The Kurtz would feed well in the AR, setup right.

http://www.gunpics.net/bullets/bullets.html

Edited again: My mistake. I now see that the rim diameter is the same as the 8x57, which means no bolt face alterations, since as I understand it, there are AR15 bolts already with the correct bolt face diameter. I haven't yet figured out what the pressure of the cartridge runs.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
See, I wasn't done editing yet.

I'm busy now, researching the 8mm Kurtz.

Edited: Neat cartridge, probably better than the 7.62x39, but I don't know where to find brass or dies, and the modifications to the AR bolt and magazines would be a deal breaker to me, probably. Just not worth the trouble. Unreliable from several aspects.

Now, if Remington had used the case, necked down to 30 cal, and called it the 30 Rem AR, it would be a different story. But nooooo, that's too simple.

Here's a link to a picture that says a lot. Notice the straight walls of the Kurtz compared to the 7.62x39. The Kurtz would feed well in the AR, setup right.

http://www.gunpics.net/bullets/bullets.html

Edited again: My mistake. I now see that the rim diameter is the same as the 8x57, which means no bolt face alterations, since as I understand it, there are AR15 bolts already with the correct bolt face diameter. I haven't yet figured out what the pressure of the cartridge runs.

KB

Yes you caught your mistake on the head size. If Remington done what you said they still couldn't call it the 30 Remington AR because there would be confusion with the old 30 Remington that was the basis of the 6.8 Remington. How about 308 Rem AR? Or would Winchester complain about that?

Yeah I wonder why the Germans didn't taper the case more or more correctly why the Russians did. The Germans basically just cut the 8x57 shorter and didn't mess with lots of taper. If you noticed on the Russian cartridges back then they even had a pretty good taper to their good old 7.62x54R.

Yup I think the 8mm Kurtz AR is the rifle for you!

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
Some fellow, from Alaska by the way, over on AR15.COM is wanting to build an AR 15 in 8mm Kurtz.

I read part of the thread, and it certainly seems this fellow is not in the class I previously mentioned. Interesting read. I'll read through it all when I have time.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
Some fellow, from Alaska by the way, over on AR15.COM is wanting to build an AR 15 in 8mm Kurtz.

I read part of the thread, and it certainly seems this fellow is not in the class I previously mentioned. Interesting read. I'll read through it all when I have time.

Yeah, he seems very intelligent and knows what he is talking about.

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
Yup I think the 8mm Kurtz AR is the rifle for you!

I like the idea - a lot.

Here's a load that I found. Obviously there is no way I can verify it right now, but if it's true, then it shows the potential. It is consistant with the potential I would expect from the cartridge. With fast powder like 1680 or 4198, a 16" or 18" barrel would be pretty handy. There are some mighty good 150gr 8mm bullets - Hornady, Speer and Sierra, and the old fashoned RN 170gr wouldn't be too heavy for handloads in this cartridge. That bullet is designed to expand at low velocity. In US factory loads, it barely exceeds 2100 fps in the 8x57. I'll bet that the Kurtz would do 2000 fps with that bullet, maybe more.

Cartridge -8mm Kurz
Case -Graf
Powder -AA1680
Primer -WLR
Bullet -125 gr SP
OAL -1.885
FPS -2564
Usage -hunting load
Used in -Custom T/C Encore

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
Yup I think the 8mm Kurtz AR is the rifle for you!

I like the idea - a lot.

Here's a load that I found. Obviously there is no way I can verify it right now, but if it's true, then it shows the potential. It is consistant with the potential I would expect from the cartridge. With fast powder like 1680 or 4198, a 16" or 18" barrel would be pretty handy. There are some mighty good 150gr 8mm bullets - Hornady, Speer and Sierra, and the old fashoned RN 170gr wouldn't be too heavy for handloads in this cartridge. That bullet is designed to expand at low velocity. In US factory loads, it barely exceeds 2100 fps in the 8x57. I'll bet that the Kurtz would do 2000 fps with that bullet, maybe more.

Cartridge -8mm Kurz
Case -Graf
Powder -AA1680
Primer -WLR
Bullet -125 gr SP
OAL -1.885
FPS -2564
Usage -hunting load
Used in -Custom T/C Encore

Well that settles it then. We're building you an 8mm Kurtz AR 15. I know just the guy for the barrel and bolt and NO it's not our mutual friend. In fact if you read that thread on AR15 this guy was mentioned for the bolt. Pm me for details and help.

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
Here is one of his spartan contoured barrels. It's very light, extremely accurate and makes for an excellent "walking rifle."


Terry

I sure like the looks of this rifle. It's nice to consider options, but I'm still favoring the 6.5 Grendel or .264LBC.

I think the right thing for me to do is just buy an assembled lower and upper, together if I find what I'm looking for, seperately if not. There's generally always something available on GB, and it looks like Midway or Brownells has lowers for sale.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
Here is one of his spartan contoured barrels. It's very light, extremely accurate and makes for an excellent "walking rifle."


Terry

I sure like the looks of this rifle. It's nice to consider options, but I'm still favoring the 6.5 Grendel or .264LBC.

I think the right thing for me to do is just buy an assembled lower and upper, together if I find what I'm looking for, seperately if not. There's generally always something available on GB, and it looks like Midway or Brownells has lowers for sale.

KB

Another good place to buy AR parts, such as the lowers you speak of, is at the Exchange on AR15.COM. You can get some pretty good buys. Remember that the lowers are the serial numbered part of the AR and you need an FFL to purchase them.

That rifle is nice, but I would advice not using a carbon fiber forearm with the extreme cold conditions you get in Alaska. They have known cold weather problems of either the glue coming loose or tube cracking.

What forearm is recommended? Does Hogue make a rubber covered forend for the AR15? If not, maybe I could wrap the conventional aluminum forend in duct tape.

KB

The carbon fiber will work fine. Another option I've seen people do is use an aluminum free float tube and wrap it in para-cord to keep the cold off thier hands. I've never used a Hogue but I hear it's a little on the heavy side.

Aluminum tubes...they don't crack or have glue that cracks loose in extreme cold. I don't buy into they are cold to hold as the shooting hand isn't the one holding it. It's a fact that carbon fiber tubes crack and the glue comes loose in extreme cold temperatures.

One can spray an aluminum tube with Plasti Coat, the same stuff has the dip method to coat tool handles such as pliers, and it will stop some of the cold feel and is lighter then a Hogue.