NE 450,

I'm not worried about whether the 338 Fed lasts or not. I've got lots of brass and dies. Besides, if I get a 338 first, most likely I'll eventually get a 308 too. It's not like getting a 338F prevents me from owing another upper later. However, if I can get a 338F upper that's just right, obviously the 308 will be redundant. I think the 338F is better suited to short barrels than the 308.

Yes the skinny handguard is a good idea. If I get a complete upper, then I'll just swap out the handguard later. It seems that custom ording options open the can-o-worms of significant price jumps, even at the base price.

Yes, the 18-20" barrel is a good idea too. It's just that Armalite shows the 338 offered in 22" barrel only, and apparantly it's not skinny. I suppose I could have it shortened later.

I already have the scope picked out, a 2x7 Leupold. I like light scopes.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

If I was looking for a self defense or offensive weapon, that's a different conversation, within which the 223 would definately be included.

KB

And they are a heck of a lot of fun.

I'm sure they are fun, which is IMO the start of the problem - boyz with toyz thingy - poking holes in things they shouldn't oughta, just like teenagers with a 22lr. Some, even supposedly adults, can't come to terms with the limitations of their toys, and start dreaming it will do something it isn't designed to do, justifying its existance way beyond its means.

I learned that lesson the first time I shot a coyote with a 22lr. Some, apparantly maintain the rationalizations for a lifetime.

KB

That's a good post KB. My first rifle as a young guy was a 243 Win. I had the impression back then I could do anything with that rifle. As I grew older and wiser I found out that wasn't anyways near the truth. Now I have a neighbor that has a 6mm Rem and he often says they he feels it could effectively kill a grizzly. I tell him I felt the same way when I was young and had a 243. Now if someone started at the other end of the spectrum and started off with a 375 H&H Mag or 458 Win Mag and felt they could kill anything with it they would be pretty close to right.

The 22LR is a wonderful cartridge. For it's intended purposes it's great. I know you feeling about coyotes. The last one I shot was with a 243. I hit him right behind the shoulder and he run off. It was in the snow so had no problem trailing him. He was leaving a pretty darn good blood trail and even body parts here and there. When I found him he just expired. I examined him and gone were his lungs, heart, stomach, and some other body parts got sucked out the massive exit hole. Gee what do you need to kill these critters in their track at that time.

KB

Here is a scope worth taking alook at. It is the Leupold MkIV M3 in 2.5-8.

It has a Ballistic Cam. You would have no trouble with either a 308 or your 338 with a rangefinder and a little practice making hits out to 600 yards.

You range and dial up to the proper spot on the Ballistic cam.
Takes out a lot of guess work.

In short, I think your idea of a 308 WCF or a 338 Federal in a lighter weight AR is a great idea.

I have done a lot of hunting with an H&K 91.
It has been a very lucky gun, I always seem to see game when I am hunting with it.

N E 450,

I agree with your suggestion about scopes. I think that's the same model I looked at. The price is what's keeping me from it. As I recall it is near $1,000.

Maybe my budget is arbitrary and not reasonably, however I still have the notion that I can get something satisfactory in the $1300 range for the complete rifle, plus whatever the cost of a scope. I already have the 2x7, so that's what I was gonna use initially.

Talking about 2,500 or $3,000 or more for a package basically closes the door for me. I'm just not gonna do it.

If that's the price it's gonna take to get a satisfactory AR10 type in 308 or 338, then I have to drop back and reconsider.

"Reconsider" - the definition for this endevor will be to narrow the scope of what I plan to do with the rifle, and also definately set the goal of one rifle. That one rifle may not be a 308 or a 338, but go back to my original plan for a 6.5 Grendel. If I have to build a custom rifle, with a high dollar scope, then it might as well be a Grendel.

Anyway, I may be rambling a bit, but the one-rifle notion is what got me started on this thread. My initial thought - in the opening post - was maybe I could get one AR type rifle that will cover the broadest scope of use. Naturally that leads one to consider the 308, IMO.

Toting a 2x4 with three bricks attached to it isn't appealing, no matter how accurate it is. So considering a carbine seems worthwhile.

I think it's narrowed down to a 308W or a 338F with a 18" to 20" light barrel, with a skinny forend.

But it still has to be in the right price range.

KB

Your on the right track.

I have looked at all the neat to have cailbers in an ARs and have decided if I am buying AR type rifles they are going to be in 223 and 308.

Unless the military picks some thing else and ammo and mags for that cailber becomes as available and as cheap as those two.

223 and 308 covers a lot of things from defense to lots of hunting.

If I want other calibers I buy other types of rifles.

KB, If you're thinking about premium parts, especially a barrel, plus the scope and rings..you're dreaming at that price. Now if you're talking run of the mill parts it can be done. In fact I believe you can buy a rifle from a company such as DPMS and be in the ball park. It may not be as light as you want though especially in an AR 10 format. If you keep the barrel light it will help a lot. If you do use a light barrel it's absolutely important to have that free float forearm which you have mentioned. Without it sling pressure and the standard non floated forearms make the barrel do crazy things. That may not matter if you're taking hunting accuracy.

If you picked up an AR 10 lower be careful what upper you choose to put on it as AR 10's aren't mil spec so the parts aren't standardized. Best to go with the brand that the lower is.

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
KB, If you're thinking about premium parts, especially a barrel, plus the scope and rings..you're dreaming at that price.

I was referring to the complete rifle, scope and rings extra.

These are in-stock uppers, apparantly ready to ship.

338:
http://www.armalite.com/ItemFo...ca-bfa1-afcb5ddcc9ba

308:
http://www.armalite.com/ItemFo...ca-bfa1-afcb5ddcc9ba

308 carbine:
http://www.armalite.com/ItemFo...ca-bfa1-afcb5ddcc9ba

KB

KB out to 300+ yards your 2to7 Leupold will work just fine. I have used several of them on my guns in the past.

My brother got my last two and he is still using them with great success.

The 2x7 is a nice scope I have a couple I put 2.5x8s or 3x9s on now with a multi plex reticle of some type.

KB I hunt with an AR10 you can get excellent accuracy out of a 18" barrel. My DPMS SASS will put 5 shots in a thumb nail size group. You can get all the spec of thier web site. I really feel for you with all these keyboard commandos. I cann't beleave all the discussion on what it takes to kill a man. When you are trying to build a hunting rifle. I can almost bet that they probablly have never been shot at. But they have all the answers.

quote:

Originally posted by mdvjrp93:
I really feel for you with all these keyboard commandos.

mdv, it'll be ok, trust me. This is a mild conversation, compared to some. Two things are important - I can handle it, and their intentions are good - so all is well. It's about exchanging ideas, and that for the most part is what's happening. Arguing a little is perfectly normal. After all, this is on the military rifle forum, so it's somewhat natural to stray into the tactical issues somewhat, even though that isn't my main interest.

Thanks for your report on your experience. It certainly helps. I have shot my friend's AR10 in 308, and did some handloads for him. It too got thum nail size groups at 100 yds.

Thanks again

KB

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
KB out to 300+ yards your 2to7 Leupold will work just fine. I have used several of them on my guns in the past.

NE 450 & P. Dog, I do have other options, such as a 3x9, and a 2.5x8, and 3.5x10. I was just thinking of the 2x7 to start with. Maybe switch later.

What I want to know is your opinions on the Armalite uppers that I posted links to. That would be helpful, because of the three listed, I'm thinking of choosing one of them. And they are examples of what I'm finding without going custom.

I'm thinking there will be only a slight difference in the weight, comparing the first two, even though the 338F has a 22" barrel. It has a bigger bore. They don't give the weight, but I'm estimating a 10# rifle with the first two and about 9# with the carbine barrel. IMO, 4" to 6" less barrel is significant in several ways, perhaps the negative outweighing the positive.

I looked at the DPMS offering in 338F, and went ahead and committed to purchasing the Armalite lower instead. Part of the reason is the stainless barrel, and the twist rate. DPMS is 9" and AR10 is 10" twist. Also the DPMS upper I looked at had a flash hider screwed onto the end, making the effective barrel length about the same. The AR10 barrel at 22" is just crowned not threaded, which is a plus to me.

Another factor is the DPMS and AR10 receivers are made out of different aluminum. I was seeing the designation for the AR10 more often in other examples. Also availability. The AR10 is available now, the DPMS was backordered.

KB

KB #2 gets my vote for what it is worth. The tube will match your lower.

quote:

Originally posted by mdvjrp93:
KB #2 gets my vote for what it is worth. The tube will match your lower.

Yes, aweful tempting ain't it.

KB

seriously?
sell the lower
goto cabelas and buy a rem r25 in 308, it was on sale for 1199, and it is a 20" dpms with free float tube, and be done with it

that's that i **DID** - well, not from cabela's but same deal

here's the link to the sale
http://www.cabelas.com/semiaut...emi-auto-rifle.shtml

$1199 -- done and dusted

For light weight rifle I think I would go with No3.

No2 would be my second choice.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
buy a rem r25 in 308, and it is a 20" dpms with free float tube $1199 -- done and dusted

I have friends withe th R25, which they are happy with.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by mdvjrp93:
KB I hunt with an AR10 you can get excellent accuracy out of a 18" barrel. My DPMS SASS will put 5 shots in a thumb nail size group. You can get all the spec of thier web site. I really feel for you with all these keyboard commandos. I cann't beleave all the discussion on what it takes to kill a man. When you are trying to build a hunting rifle. I can almost bet that they probablly have never been shot at. But they have all the answers.

Keyboard commandos are those that have to have all the whistles and bells every created for the AR's on their rifles and they solely build their rifles (or claim too) for combat and last, but not least, only know what they read from trolling forums. Also just about none of them were actually in the military.

PM me and I'll give you directions to my place and we'll see which of the two of us are keyboard commandos. I don't mean that as an ass whooping, but an invitation to see my collection, my shop, and most important my shooting and knowledge of firearms and reloading.

Whenever there is any little bit of a disagreement right away people come out with keyboard commandos and troll.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
buy a rem r25 in 308, and it is a 20" dpms with free float tube $1199 -- done and dusted

I have friends withe th R25, which they are happy with.

KB

Go to a gunshop that have the rifles you are interested in and examine them while handling them. If they don't have them maybe a gunshow nearby you will.

That 338 Federal sounds very enticing. I know a person that has one chambered in a Springfield M1A. Being the 338-06 is a very good round I don't see why the 338 Federal wouldn't be either. Think is if the AR is going to be the lighter weight you seem to prefer..and nothing wrong with that especially for hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
Being the 338-06 is a very good round I don't see why the 338 Federal wouldn't be either.

As the 308 is often compared, favorably, to the 30-06, the 338 Federal is to the 338-06. In this case the platform dictates the cartridges that are suitable. The 338F in the AR is a way of getting near 338-06 performance in a semi-auto. I never cared much for the 338-06, but I think I would like the 338F.

The thing is that my reasons for shunning the 338-06 are still applicable to the 338F. For the game I would hunt with it, I could just never see what the 338-06 would do that I couldn't squeeze out of a 30-06. But, that's in a bolt action, and a long cartridge, with a long neck, where the 220gr .308 bullets can be used. Anyway, no need to beat that horse to death again. I never saw the need for 220gr .308 bullets either.

It just comes down to the 338F provides a good platform to run the 200gr and 210gr .338 bullets at a good speed. Comparing the 308W with the 338F, I don't see an advantage of the 338F using lighter bullets, like the 160 or 180gr, but within normal hunting ranges nothing or very little is given up either. I just figured that if it doesn't cost more, why not try one? I just wish it was offered in the carbine.

KB

KB build the 338 and post all your results on it. This also includes load data . I am an upper from owning one Could save me some money. That is the great thing about the Stoner design two pins and there is 2 ladys to dance with.

got my r25 -- other than needing a trigger and some krylon, its perfect.. factory trigger is a JOKE

I never thought about purchasing an AR type rifle until my buddy showed me his about six months ago...it was just plain fun to shoot!

Spent the last six months looking, researching, and handling ARs...let's just say the choices, options are overwhleming.

I settled on getting a .223/5.56 for plinking, target, varmint hunting, and possibly some form of competition shooting down the road. Seemed liked the best choice for a fist AR to me.

Having a few HK pistols I gravitated towards the HK MR556...while it is a bit heavy the thing is like a bank vault compared to the others I shot and handled but you pay for it...

Worst part of the deal is now I have to have a 308/7.62, this seems like an expensive but possibly rewarding hobby....at least that's what I tell myself when I look at all the possibilties

Since my last post I've made a few more discoveries, which closed the gap only a little with this overwhelmed with options thing.

It kinda goes back to something Rich said in a post about clarification of the purpose of the rifle. I have to remind myself that it's for hunting -- deer and hogs specifically. All other uses are only consequential. Besides price, requirments included are that it must be of reasonable weight for carrying and shoot MOA or better groups.

I discovered a source for a carbine 338F upper, but it won't be available for about six months. I'll wait.

I was told that the estimated weight for the 338F 22" barreled complete rifle is about 11.5 lbs, not including the scope. That's simply not acceptable. If that's true then I gotta take another direction. I may have been mistaken or misunderstood. Now, second guessing what I think I heard, I find that weight estimate unreal. But, even if he meant with the scope and base and a five round magazine full of ammo, that's a lot.

Over the phone, I got into a conversation with a fellow who works for an outfit whose name I won't mention. He was casually mentioning 3" groups from a 308/7.62 carbine barrel. I asked why not 1" groups, and he told me it had to do with the chamber and throat of a so-called & so-intended battle rifle. Going bang is the first requirment, accuracy of 3" groups is acceptable. I'm not shopping for a battle rifle.

So, more research. Today, I found an upper in 243, with a light weight match grade CM barrel, with a close tolerance chamber. I was told that getting one inch or better groups should present little challenge. That's appealing. That's what I'm looking for. I found the 6.5 Grendel performance acceptable, so surely the 243 is acceptable. I'll just have to make sure I'm not carrying that particular rifle, when a brown bear encounter could happen. Later, if I get the 338F carbine upper, it will see that kind of service, maybe.

I'm taking a closer look at the 243 option, particularly the weight. I was told to estimate the complete rifle, less the loaded magazine, and less the scope and rings, to be just under nine pounds. That may be as light as I can get without going to the AR15.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Since my last post I've made a few more discoveries, which closed the gap only a little with this overwhelmed with options thing.

It kinda goes back to something Rich said in a post about clarification of the purpose of the rifle. I have to remind myself that it's for hunting -- deer and hogs specifically. All other uses are only consequential. Besides price, requirments included are that it must be of reasonable weight for carrying and shoot MOA or better groups.

I discovered a source for a carbine 338F upper, but it won't be available for about six months. I'll wait.

I discovered that the estimated weight for the 338F 22" barreled complete rifle is about 11.5 lbs, not including the scope. That's simply not acceptable. Gotta take another direction.

Over the phone, I got into a conversation with a fellow who works for an outfit whose name I won't mention. He was casually mentioning 3" groups from a 308/7.62 carbine barrel. I asked why not 1" groups, and he told me it had to do with the chamber and throat of a so-called & so-intended battle rifle. Going bang is the first requirment, accuracy of 3" groups is acceptable. I'm not shopping for a battle rifle.

So, more research. Today, I found an upper in 243, with a light weight match grade CM barrel, with a close tolerance chamber. I was told that getting one inch or better groups should present little challenge. That's appealing.

I'm taking a closer look at that option, particularly the weight.

KB

KB,

Please excuse my laughing my butt off about that guy you spoke with on the phone. Let me explain what he was talking about the battle chamber. He was referring to the chamber being a 7.62 chamber which is a little different then the 308 chamber. With that said my LW barrel is a 7.62 military style chamber and my good friend's ArmaLite has the 7.62 chamber. Both shoot less then MOA at 100. Hell KB I shot less then MOA at 300 yards with a cast load I have. M14's had/have the 7.62 Nato "battle" chamber and believe me they shoot far far and away better then the groups he got.

I hope some of the other guys chime in and tell you about this. PM me who that guy was. He steered you wrong my friend.

SJ,
Again, you quoted my post, before I was done editing.

I don't feel comfee disclosing names of persons or companies, because clearly I may have misunderstood. My mind went kinda foundered when he mentioned 3" groups. I could just envision my frustration in trying to figure out how to get that bastard rifle to shoot. That's no way I want to start out my experience with an AR. If it can be avoided, I'll avoid that.

This shouldn't be as complicated as it seems to be, IMO. I truely hope my enjoyment of actually shooting an AR type rifle causes me to forget the lack of enjoyment in the shopping for one. This is a pain in the neck, for a rifle that has bad ergos, IMO, and it farts back on itself to boot. It had better be fun to shoot.

KB

KB,

I can understand your position on privacy. I can assure you that the 7.62 NATO chamber can be very accurate. You can also get a light weight 7.62/308 barrel and cut your weight down a lot. I looked over the DPMS website one day and found that the lightest 308 AR that I could get from them was under 9 pounds. It can be done KB. Your 243 isn't a bad choice but remember this...because it's bore is much smaller then a 308, and say the contour of the barrels are the small, the 243 will be heavier then the 308.

My head is still reeling from that guy telling you that. I don't believe you heard wrong either.

Well, I know I didn't hear the 3" group thing wrong. My mind kinda momentarily went into brain fart at that point, so that's why I might not have really understood his explanation.

This 243 barrel apparantly is much smaller diameter than the 338 barrel. As I recall, the 243 is .75" at the gas block, and the 338 is .85".

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Well, I know I didn't hear the 3" group thing wrong. My mind kinda momentarily went into lockdown at that point, so that's why I might not have really understood his explanation.

KB

I believe the actual difference in the two chambers is in the throat of the chamber. The bodies are pretty dang close. Believe this or not, and try to find it on Google and you won't, that the 7.62 NATO chamber is sort of classified. It's still a current military round. Even LW couldn't help me and said they would sent dimensions that are pretty close, but not exact. Hell KB that carbine barrel, if any good, would have to shoot smaller groups then that with black powder. Being it's short barrel has nothing to do with it's accuracy potential either.

Hey p dog, get in here and tell him how 308 NATO chambered barrels can shoot.

I didn't know any body could sale a three inch rifle. Now a shotgun maybe. I'm with KB except I think the guy was being fired and he knew it. So he was giving the produc t a bad rap

I really got the impression that he thought 3" groups is acceptable in a "battle rifle". he went on to share some stories of satisfied customers who used them "over there". He emphasized reliability and the ability to fire practically any 7.62x51 ammo from any source. That could actually be useful in Afganistan.

Anyway, it instantly drove me towards thinking of a chambering in a cartridge that doesn't have dual specs. In other words, a cartridge specific for hunting.

KB

No, three inch groups aren't. Even most the old military rifles would do that easy.

See you heard the same thing from another knowledgeable poster.

Go peruse DPMS's website and see how light a weight AR 10 style rifle you can put together in 308, 243, 260.

My best friend has an early original 91 HK that literally chews a big hole in the target with a magazine full of military surplus, not match, and it's a NATO chamber.

DPMS makes the Panther in 308 or 338F, with an 18" light weight barrel for suggested retail price of $1500.00.

Weight is 7.9 lbs.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
DPMS makes the Panther in 308 or 338F, with an 18" light weight barrel for suggested retail price of $1500.00.

Weight is 7.9 lbs.

That sounds like the carbide for KB. If one looks around you can find that discounted. One place is Cheaper Than Dirt...they sell guns, but their for that is slightly difficult to find. Another is Umlaut Industries.

I replaced the trigger and grip. okay in love.

Put on collapsible stock. Took it off again. I may leave it is more or less a2 config. But I did replace that bid lighter of a grip

I agree but the DPMS is known to be a little heavy. But I love mine and I have packed all through the swamp I hunt in. Just can't get over the way it shoots.

The one N E 450 mentioned isn't that bad of a weight. Put a small lightweight scope on it and he would be all set.

RE 3" groups.

I would suspect that with most of these off the shelf 308 AR's, shooting USGI 308 ammo, with iron sights 3" groups would be about right at 100 yards.

Switching to better ammo could easialy cut those groups in half, especially with some kind of optic sight.

The fact is, to get a lightweight 308 or 338 AR, that you KNOW will shoot 1 MOA or less will require a good barrel and a good build with a lightweight designed reciever, lower and a skinny lightweight front tube handguard.

You might get lucky with an off the shelf, mass produced AR, might not.

One rifle that I know will fill all of these requirements is the lightweight JP in 308. The one I fired was one of the most accurate, non custom Match/Sniper bolt type 308 rifles I have ever fired.

No doubt it was one of the most if not the most accurate Semiauto 308 I have ever fired.

And this includes several "super duper" M 14's and a couple of H&K PSG1's.

And it was handier than a Colt 223 HBAR.

They are a little spendy, but you definately get your moneys worth.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
RE 3" groups.

I would suspect that with most of these off the shelf 308 AR's, shooting USGI 308 ammo, with iron sights 3" groups would be about right at 100 yards.

Switching to better ammo could easialy cut those groups in half, especially with some kind of optic sight.

I think you surmised the situation and the conversation well. I'm pretty sure that's what the guy I was talking with was saying. Iron sights, military ammo, rapid fire. If so, that's actually impressive. I doubt I could do it.

However, I judge a rifle by what it will do in the best of conditions, then consider less than that is because of whatever I'm doing to cause it.

Anyway, this has been a helpful, interesting and informative conversation. Thanks.

The AR10 lower that I ordered should be here in a week or so. One step at a time. I can set my buddy's upper on it, just to get some shooting done, and test the trigger. If it's less than satisfactory, I'll think about replacing it.

I can take my time about the upper. I can't get to the range for maybe two months anyway. There's too much snow on the road out that way. I'm aweful tempted to buy that light weight 243 upper, and plan on the 338F carbine next fall when they become available. It's been a while since I used a 243, but I certainly have nothing against them. In fact, I think any of the cartridges derived from the 308 are good for deer and hogs, including the 243, 260, 7mm-08, and 338F. IMO, they are all about equally good in the right hands. The only reason I want a 338F is in case I want to tote the rifle specifically for the peace of mind in a situation that I could possibly need it to change the attitude of a brown bear. Up close and personal is what carbines are for. I could easily cover that situation with one of several bolt action rifles I already have, until I can get the AR carbine.

That 243 just has to be an effective deer slayer, especially in the hands of an old experienced fart like me.

KB

One of the best cartridges derived from the 308 is the most neglected and that is the 358 Winchester.

What brand upper and lower will you end up with?

Contrary to popular believe a 308 semi of just about any flavor off a bench should shoot way better groups then 3 inches at 100 with iron sights. Now that group rapid fire would be awesome.