Such as the AR10, and equivilent - R-25, whatever RRA and or DPMS call their version, for examples.

In the 16" carbine length barrel, is the loss of velocity, increase in muzzel blast, and perhaps loss of accuracy worth the trade off to gain lighter weight and handiness?

I'm just saying - ten or eleven pounds, or perhaps heavier doesn't seem too appealing, compared to the carbine weight, but it seems that light weight and handiness is gonna require some trade-off somewhere.

How do you who have such rifles and have made such choices deal with it?

KB

I can say that at distances to 800 yards an 18" or 20" barreled accurate 308 will shoot as good as a 24 or 26" barreled gun.
You will need from one MOA to two MOA more "up", but accuracy will be the same.

IF you want your 308 to be accurate to 1000 yards then you need a 26" barrel, and good ammo with, say a good 175 gr Sierra MK or the old 180 Sierra MK or a 190 Sierra MK, like the Hertenberg, Euro match Sniper ammo.

Also the old White box 7.62MM 172gr. Match ammo will go to 1000 yards even in a 1 in 12, 24" 308 barrel, or in a 22" M 1-A.

OK - Ok, maybe I mis-stated the opening line. I'll try to restate the opening question. I'm not really talking about 800 or 1000 yds - more like 300 yds, max.

I realize short barrels can be as accurate as longer barrels. However, short and LIGHT barrels aren't generally known to be as accurate as short and HEAVY barrels. After all, why make a barrel 16" if it isn't about weight? My thought is that if the light barrels shoot as accurate as the heavy, why would anyone ever want a heavy barrel?

Also, in part the question is about the other factors such as muzzel blast, and loss of velocity. My only heretofore reference point on this is the compact Ruger 77 with the 16" barrel. I have two friends who each own one of those rifles and both rifles are accurate, and they enjoy shooting them, according to what I've seen at the range, and their reports. I personally have never owned or shot such a rifle, but I see the carbines offered in the ARs, and wonder what those with experience have to say.

To me the ergonomics of the AR 10 and clones is something to get used to, like an acquired taste. I just feel like a blocky feeling rifle that weighs over ten pounds, not counting the scope, is gonna take a lot of taste acquiring for me, but I'm determined to try.

Maybe the answer is just as simple as it appears. Those of you using the full size rifles just accept the weight and don't worry about it. I just think the carbines are appealing, but what would I be giving up in buying one compared to say a normal 22" mid-weight barrel?

KB

If I were baying a 308 semi auto it would be with a longer barrel far all the reasons you stated

Kabluewy

In my experience, a good lightweight built 16" 308 bolt or semiauto in 308, will be as accurate as anyone would need for hunting or defense to 300 yards...

Actually for quite a bit farther, out to 600 yards for sure. You might need a little bit more "UP" adjustment at 300 yards and to 600 yards but once figured out it is no big deal...

4 TO 5 OZ difference

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Kabluewy

In my experience, a good lightweight built 16" 308 bolt or semiauto in 308, will be as accurate as anyone would need for hunting or defense to 300 yards...

Actually for quite a bit farther, out to 600 yards for sure. You might need a little bit more "UP" adjustment at 300 yards and to 600 yards but once figured out it is no big deal...

I'm not concerned with the "up" adj. That has a remedy. It's the dispersion adj that I'm concerned with, which generally is more difficult to deal with than merely turning a knob.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
4 TO 5 OZ difference

If the weight difference is no more than that, it's no problem. Maybe I'm reading more into it than exists.

I have really grown fond of handy and quick rifles. Also, I have a notion for an AR. I want to merge the two. Of course I'm still aflicted with the bug for accuracy. It's like experiencing good nooky. Once you've had some of it, then less than that becomes less interesting.

I am kinda in the same boat.. the weight doesn't make that much of a diff to me... after big bore heavy rifles, and double rifles, i created the AccRels, to make a shorter package.. the lighter weight turned out as a plus.

my r25 is about 40inch long, it will get a m4/tapco t6 carbine, which should bring it down to 36 ish... if i think cut the barrel +0.25 longer than minimum legal, that is 32.25 ish (this may not happen)...

i MIGHT loose a couple oz from the stock change, and a couple from shortening the barrel ... but its main sight will be a 2.25# 1K digisight ... so it'll never be a light weight.. and 6 inches longer than minimum ... but 8 inches shorter would be much handier in and out of truck, 4wheeler, and stand... and easier to get through the brush with.

the LENGTH will be more critical to me than the weight... i wonder how short the battle ax by troy is...

KB chamber the rifle in 7.62X39. You already reload so getting the accuracy you want will be no problem. This can be done on the ar15 platform so you can get the weight you want. I would use a med. to bull barrel contour. I'm planning to build one for my wife to hunt with for all the reasons you have stated. I'm no expert but I think that it will be a superb rifle for her and the recoil should not be excessive. I want her to be comfortable with it. I love to take her with me when I hunt.

AR 10's are heavier that AR 15 as a general rule. The receivers on the AR 10's are longer and thicker, the bolt/carrier group is fatter and longer, the barrel extension is larger, the shank of the barrel is larger...all this adds up to more weight then the AR 15. I find the handiest barrel lenght (without a flash hider) on my AR 15's is 18 inches. I'd stay away from the 7.62x39 in an AR 15 because there isn't 100 percent magazine reliability. Do a poll of soldiers and ask them how many of them would carry a M 16 chambered in 7.62x39 into combat over a more straight walled cartridge that works in the AR such as the 5.56. You are limited to the very short and small capacity mags with the 7.62 Rooskie in the AR. Sure some of the larger mags work, but do they work every time and 100 percent of the tim. KB we talked about that round in the AR. Why does everyone think RRA has come out with a dedicated lower specifically for that round that uses actual AK magazines? Reliability.

Would you build a big block high performance engine and put a little two barrel carburetor on it? Probably not so why limit a good cartridge like the 308 to a really short barrel length on an AR?

I friggin hate 16" barreled 308s. The muzzle blast is brutal. I wouldn't go less than 20". If you want light weight, I'd make direct inquiries to the makers for a light-contour barrel. Or consider custom making your own gas block to fit a light contour barrel.

Look how light an M1 barrel is at the muzzle. No reason you couldn't build an AR10 like that.

quote:

Originally posted by BECoole:
I friggin hate 16" barreled 308s. The muzzle blast is brutal. I wouldn't go less than 20". If you want light weight, I'd make direct inquiries to the makers for a light-contour barrel. Or consider custom making your own gas block to fit a light contour barrel.

Look how light an M1 barrel is at the muzzle. No reason you couldn't build an AR10 like that.

Agreed, you can even find carbon fiber steel lined barrels for even a lighter weight.

As for the Ruger Scout rifle, I think Ruger should have took off the stupid flash hider and added those inches to the barrel length. Military only have short barreled carbines because of special requirements that can be accomplished better with a shorter barrel, not because they are better then longer barrels. Trying getting in and out of a HumVee with a standard full size M16 as compared to the M4 carbine. Tankers have it even worse.

I didn't know that KB was building a rifle to shoot zoombies. A ten round mag is more than enough for hunting. I haven't heard anything that says the 7.62X39 had problems functioning in a AR15 platform. I did however see on another post that KB has already bought a AR10 lower. KB there is a company that will take your barrel and enclose it in a straight jacket. They claim they are heat resistant and just a accurate as a bull barrel but weight less than half as much. You might be able to use a light contour barrel and have it jacketed.

quote:

Originally posted by mdvjrp93:
I didn't know that KB was building a rifle to shoot zoombies. A ten round mag is more than enough for hunting. KB has already bought a AR10 lower.

You are right on all. It's not a zombie rifle, and I plan on five round mags to save weight, and I have bought a AR10 lower. I'm just looking for thoughts before I buy the upper.

I really like the 308 cartridge, but since I have several bolt action 308s, I thought I would get a 338 Federal in the AR10, but it appears to be available only with a 22" heavy barrel.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by mdvjrp93:
I didn't know that KB was building a rifle to shoot zoombies. A ten round mag is more than enough for hunting. I haven't heard anything that says the 7.62X39 had problems functioning in a AR15 platform. I did however see on another post that KB has already bought a AR10 lower. KB there is a company that will take your barrel and enclose it in a straight jacket. They claim they are heat resistant and just a accurate as a bull barrel but weight less than half as much. You might be able to use a light contour barrel and have it jacketed.

About the 7.62x39 functioning in the AR15. Did you know that Jesus was on Earth then died for our sins and was resurrected. The other thing you probably haven't heard about that cartridge is that the AR15's firing pin won't reliably set off the hard military surplus primers. There are mods for either the firing pin or bolt tail.

KB

The lightest, sleekest 308 AR I have shot is the Small JP veresion.
The one I shot was well under one MOA with 5 different factory loads.

It is kinda spendy, but it is one nice :little" 308 AR.
You might see if their upper will fit your lower.

Looks like the JP uppers are available in 338 Fed with 18" barrel. The price is at $1,800.

The upper I'm looking at is about half the price of the JP.

Also they (JP) are built on DPMS receivers.

Here's the link to Armalite. The show several options in stock. Under the carbines there is one 308 in SS with the 16" barrel.

http://www.armalite.com/Catite...ca-bfa1-afcb5ddcc9ba

KB

I'm thinking out to 300yds the 308 offers no "real world" advantage over a 223. The US Military agrees with me.

Define the scenario, then choose a rifle that matches it's criteria the closest.

I have a 24" heavy barreled DPMS 308. I also have a short barreled, lightweight AR-15. Picking one over the other is a response to the situation.

Rich

check out the AR's at www.largrizzly.com I shot their new 308 version at SHOT. If I had not already purchased my DPMS, I would be buying one or two of theirs.

Oh my Rich. Why is the U.S. and British begging for them in the sandbox? U.S. is using Knights, SR 25 Stoners, and all the M14's they could muster. The British couldn't get any of their colonies to give up some FAL FN's so they are buying AR 10's from LWRC. I think you're wrong on this one.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
I'm thinking out to 300yds the 308 offers no "real world" advantage over a 223. The US Military agrees with me.

Rich

I can spot a provocative red herring when presented. Obviously you are just messing with me to see if I'll take the bait.

KB

No one rifle is perfect for all situations.

I agree with Idaho the 223 is plenty out to 300 yards all one has to do is look at the damage done to critters hit with one.

I have yet to find someone who says we need a 308 willing to take a 223 round at 500 yards a 55gr 223 is like getting hit with a 22lr at he muzzle. I seen plenty of deer kill with a 22lr and several people.

You take a soild hit with a 22lr you are talking major surgey to repair the damage or your going to die.

Would it be my frist choice knowing I'll be takeing 500 yards shots no.

But I have no problem carring one for up close and personal and I would have no trouble hitting targets with it a 500 yards. I have shot to many p dogs that far away.

And if I hit you you well not like it.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
No one rifle is perfect for all situations.

I agree with Idaho the 223 is plenty out to 300 yards all one has to do is look at the damage done to critters hit with one.

I have yet to find someone who says we need a 308 willing to take a 223 round at 500 yards a 55gr 223 is like getting hit with a 22lr at he muzzle. I seen plenty of deer kill with a 22lr and several people.

You take a soild hit with a 22lr you are talking major surgey to repair the damage or your going to die.

Would it be my frist choice knowing I'll be takeing 500 yards shots no.

But I have no problem carring one for up close and personal and I would have no trouble hitting targets with it a 500 yards. I have shot to many p dogs that far away.

And if I hit you you well not like it.

You willing to take a 223 round at 500 yards for the sake of proving what you are talking about? If so I'll come out to Wis. and shoot you. Let me know.

So according to you and Rich only caliber in the world that we need for anything is a 223? Big difference in shooting prairie dogs and large animals you know.

Take the M4 carbine with it's short barrel which cuts down the performance of the 5.56 cartridge and put the terrorist over in Afghanistan out a little ways rather then right in your face in urban situation and have lots of clothing on in addition to a magazine vest and tell tell that a 308 won't penetrate all that better then the 5.56.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Looks like the JP uppers are available in 338 Fed with 18" barrel. The price is at $1,800.

The upper I'm looking at is about half the price of the JP.

Also they (JP) are built on DPMS receivers.

Here's the link to Armalite. The show several options in stock. Under the carbines there is one 308 in SS with the 16" barrel.

http://www.armalite.com/Catite...ca-bfa1-afcb5ddcc9ba

KB

Why don't you call John Holliger? I'll bet he would make a nice, light contour barreled upper for you.

SmokinJ I was going to reply to your post on Jessus but then I read some of your other post. You seem to have a rather wide range of knowledge and do not mind sharing it. We all appeericate the fact.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
I'm thinking out to 300yds the 308 offers no "real world" advantage over a 223. The US Military agrees with me.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
No one rifle is perfect for all situations.

I agree with Idaho the 223 is plenty out to 300 yards all one has to do is look at the damage done to critters hit with one.

I have yet to find someone who says we need a 308 willing to take a 223 round at 500 yards a 55gr 223 is like getting hit with a 22lr at he muzzle. I seen plenty of deer kill with a 22lr and several people.

You take a soild hit with a 22lr you are talking major surgey to repair the damage or your going to die.

Would it be my frist choice knowing I'll be takeing 500 yards shots no.

But I have no problem carring one for up close and personal and I would have no trouble hitting targets with it a 500 yards. I have shot to many p dogs that far away.

And if I hit you you well not like it.

You willing to take a 223 round at 500 yards for the sake of proving what you are talking about? If so I'll come out to Wis. and shoot you. Let me know.

So according to you and Rich only caliber in the world that we need for anything is a 223? Big difference in shooting prairie dogs and large animals you know.

Take the M4 carbine with it's short barrel which cuts down the performance of the 5.56 cartridge and put the terrorist over in Afghanistan out a little ways rather then right in your face in urban situation and have lots of clothing on in addition to a magazine vest and tell tell that a 308 won't penetrate all that better then the 5.56.

I'm looking at a box of 210gr .338 TSX bullets sitting beside my keyboard, and wondering about the relevancy of tactical or military or zombie use of the AR. For me, I think it doesn't apply. I'm still talking about a hunting rifle.

I'm not talking about wounding something at 500 yds. Certainly the effect of a 22lr has no relevancy to me, in this discussion. I'm still talking about deer or hogs at reasonable hunting ranges - 300yds or less. Slow this TSX down enough and it won't even expand.

I really don't want this conversation to fall into the 223 debate pit, but if any of you crazie 223 freeks think the effect of a 223 will in any way compete with a 308 at three hundred yards, try having that conversation with an elk hunter, then get back with me if you still want to argue. Otherwise I ask that you not waste our time, and my time, with such silliness.

Things would be much simpler and easier if it really was factual, what some apparantly believe. If it was so, then we could all just get an AR 15 in 223, and use it for everything.

Perhaps this represents the gap between my view of it and the view of the 223 freeks. When I start thinking about an AR - one rifle, one caliber - presuming that I don't yet know if I will like it, and want to own just one, I think of a cartridge adequate for everything I'll hunt with it. That's what led me to the 338 Fed, but that's just because I like a 338. Most likely the 308 is plenty. The 223 isn't even on the list.

KB

SmokinJ

HUH I think you need to reread my post and you need to quote the whole thing.


"You willing to take a 223 round at 500 yards for the sake of proving what you are talking about? If so I'll come out to Wis. and shoot you. Let me know."

I am not willing to get shot with any thing seen to many things die getting shot.

"So according to you and Rich only caliber in the world that we need for anything is a 223? Big difference in shooting prairie dogs and large animals you know."

Yes Large animals are a lot easier to hit.

Having kill several hundred large animals and seen several other hundreds of them get shot. I am fairly sure I know what it takes to kill them.

Take the M4 carbine with it's short barrel which cuts down the performance of the 5.56 cartridge and put the terrorist over in Afghanistan out a little ways rather then right in your face in urban situation and have lots of clothing on in addition to a magazine vest and tell tell that a 308 won't penetrate all that better then the 5.56. post.

22lr vel is M4 vel at 500 yards Get your balistic tables out and look it up.

When did any body say a 308 doesn't out penetrate a 223.

Get real p dog.

So you're still saying according to you that nobody needs anything larger then the 223 to efficiency harvest any big game animal (excluding the big dangerous game animals in Africa and else where, including big bears).

You're saying that a 223 bullet arrives at all distances with more energy then the 308? You're saying that sniper over in the sandbox that made one of the longest distance kills with a 308 (I believe it was in the 1600 yard range somewhere) could have done it with the 223 and done it more effectively?

quote:

I'm looking at a box of 210gr .338 TSX bullets sitting beside my keyboard, and wondering about the relevancy of tactical or military or zombie use of the AR. For me, I think it doesn't apply. I'm still talking about a hunting rifle.

I'm not talking about wounding something at 500 yds. Certainly the effect of a 22lr has no relevancy to me, in this discussion. I'm still talking about deer or hogs at reasonable hunting ranges - 300yds or less. Slow this TSX down enough and it won't even expand.

I really don't want this conversation to fall into the 223 debate pit, but if any of you crazie 223 freeks think the effect of a 223 will in any way compete with a 308 at three hundred yards, try having that conversation with an elk hunter, then get back with me if you still want to argue. Otherwise I ask that you not waste our time, and my time, with such silliness.

Things would be much simpler and easier if it really was factual, what some apparantly believe. If it was so, then we could all just get an AR 15 in 223, and use it for everything.

Perhaps this represents the gap between my view of it and the view of the 223 freeks. When I start thinking about an AR - one rifle, one caliber - presuming that I don't yet know if I will like it, and want to own just one, I think of a cartridge adequate for everything I'll hunt with it. That's what led me to the 338 Fed, but that's just because I like a 338. Most likely the 308 is plenty. The 223 isn't even on the list.

There are many hunting calibers out there that well do a very fine job out to 300 yards the 338 fed in a AR-10 well be fine so well a 243,308 260 7mm08 or most any other 308 based cailber

For purely hunting I perfer bolts,levers and single shots.

But also own several AR's

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
There are many hunting calibers out there that well do a very fine job out to 300 yards the 338 fed in a AR-10 well be fine so well a 243,308 260 7mm08 or most any other 308 based cailber

For purely hunting I perfer bolts, levers and single shots.

Agreed. I thought I would give an AR a try, and much of the mental debate I have with myself, is what has kept me from buying one thus far. It's heavy. It's awkward, What do I need one for? etc., etc. It's a long list.

If I was looking for a self defense or offensive weapon, that's a different conversation, within which the 223 would definately be included.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
There are many hunting calibers out there that well do a very fine job out to 300 yards the 338 fed in a AR-10 well be fine so well a 243,308 260 7mm08 or most any other 308 based cailber

For purely hunting I perfer bolts, levers and single shots.

Agreed. I thought I would give an AR a try, and much of the mental debate I have with myself, is what has kept me from buying one thus far. It's heavy. It's awkward, What do I need one for? etc., etc. It's a long list.

If I was looking for a self defense or offensive weapon, that's a different conversation, within which the 223 would definately be included.

KB

And they are a heck of a lot of fun. One of these days I'll add a AR -10 in 308 to my collection.

quote:

Originally posted by mdvjrp93:
SmokinJ I was going to reply to your post on Jessus but then I read some of your other post. You seem to have a rather wide range of knowledge and do not mind sharing it. We all appeericate the fact.

I am. If you want to research what I'm talking about I suggest you go over to AR15.COM and ask questions about the 7.62x39 in the AR 15 platform especially about magazine reliability, which are the best, which don't work, etc., along with not hard enough firing pin strike on the harder primers on surplus military ammo. Remember a lot of guys should the surplus ammo along with the Wolf steel case ammo because it's cheap. This would be of no interest to you if you reload. While there read also the problems with that steel cased ammo associated with the lacquer and polymer coated cases and see what it does.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
There are many hunting calibers out there that well do a very fine job out to 300 yards the 338 fed in a AR-10 well be fine so well a 243,308 260 7mm08 or most any other 308 based cailber

For purely hunting I perfer bolts, levers and single shots.

Agreed. I thought I would give an AR a try, and much of the mental debate I have with myself, is what has kept me from buying one thus far. It's heavy. It's awkward, What do I need one for? etc., etc. It's a long list.

If I was looking for a self defense or offensive weapon, that's a different conversation, within which the 223 would definately be included.

KB

And they are a heck of a lot of fun. One of these days I'll add a AR -10 in 308 to my collection.

What for? Remember you agree with Rich that it's not needed over a 223 up to 300 yards. Tell that to an Elk.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

If I was looking for a self defense or offensive weapon, that's a different conversation, within which the 223 would definately be included.

KB

And they are a heck of a lot of fun.

I'm sure they are fun, which is IMO the start of the problem - boyz with toyz thingy - poking holes in things they shouldn't oughta, just like teenagers with a 22lr. Some, even supposedly adults, can't come to terms with the limitations of their toys, and start dreaming it will do something it isn't designed to do, justifying its existance way beyond its means.

I learned that lesson the first time I shot a coyote with a 22lr. Some, apparantly maintain the rationalizations for a lifetime.

KB

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
I'm thinking out to 300yds the 308 offers no "real world" advantage over a 223. The US Military agrees with me.

Define the scenario, then choose a rifle that matches it's criteria the closest.

"Quote from SmokinJ
What for? Remember you agree with Rich that it's not needed over a 223 up to 300 yards. Tell that to an Elk"

Where has any body been talking elk.

I think every body should carry a 338 or even better a 50BMG round you never know one might have take a shot at a mile.

There is Practical and there is the what if. For most defensive use the 223 works well. I can what if all day and come up with situations that no matter what rifle you have it well not be the best for that situation.

quote:

I'm sure they are fun, which is IMO the start of the problem - boyz with toyz thingy - poking holes in things they shouldn't oughta, just like teenagers with a 22lr. Some, even supposedly adults, can't come to terms with the limitations of their toys, and start dreaming it will do something it isn't designed to do, justifying its existance way beyond its means.

I learned that lesson the first time I shot a coyote with a 22lr. Some, apparantly maintain the rationalizations for a lifetime.

There is a reason some of us own dozens of rifles in calibers from 22lr up to very big bore DGRs plus a few 50BMG cailber rifles out there.

P Dog,
I do understand what you are saying, and to a big degree, I agree with you.

I know that if I owned a 223, I'm as succeptable as the rest for finding it fun to shoot, and then wanting to use it for hunting. I can easily understand how it happens.

I can also understand how the 223 is perhaps the perfect tool as a weapon of offense or defense, for home protection, tactical, LE, and many other uses, including varmint shooting.

I'm resistant to owning one, because I know I would join in that which I have critized.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
P Dog,
I do understand what you are saying, and to a big degree, I agree with you.

I know that if I owned a 223, I'm as succeptable as the rest for finding it fun to shoot, and then wanting to use it for hunting. I can easily understand how it happens.

I can also understand how the 223 is perhaps the perfect tool as a weapon of offense or defense, for home protection, tactical, LE, and many other uses, including varmint shooting.

I'm resistant to owning one, because I know I would join in that which I have critized.

KB

I use to critize calibers also but now I own so many I can't any more. They all do something why would any one want a 32S@W short in a H@R top break. Because a freind gave it to me I even have ammo for it. Guns with out ammo make poor clubs.

Do I carry it no is it loaded and laying on a shelve yea would I grab and use it for self defense you bet.

Would be better to grab one of my other bigger better guns sure only if I could get to them before I had to shoot.

If one of those 200 dollar buy back programs came around my area I have several I would turn in. The 32 is one of them.

Then I could buy something better.

KB for your intended use I would go with the 308.
I would personally prefer an 18" barrel to a 16".

I have shot a lot of deer and pigs with 18 to 20" 308's.
I had no problem hitting a javillina at 412, lazered, yards with a 19 3/4" Blaser R 93 Tracker, with a 4X scope. It did have a Ballistic Cam, and there was no wind, but the short 308 can make the distance no problem.

The 338 Federal may or may not be a long lasting success, remember the 358 Win.
They are both great cartridges, but the 308 will be around for a long time for sure.

My wife shot several large plains game animals in Zimbabwe with no problems.

I would try to get the rifle set up with as skinny a front handguard as I could. That will make the rifle handle better IMHO.

Also by picking a lighter smaller scope it will make the overal package lighter and handier as well.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
I'm thinking out to 300yds the 308 offers no "real world" advantage over a 223. The US Military agrees with me.

Define the scenario, then choose a rifle that matches it's criteria the closest.

"Quote from SmokinJ
What for? Remember you agree with Rich that it's not needed over a 223 up to 300 yards. Tell that to an Elk"

Where has any body been talking elk.

I think every body should carry a 338 or even better a 50BMG round you never know one might have take a shot at a mile.

There is Practical and there is the what if. For most defensive use the 223 works well. I can what if all day and come up with situations that no matter what rifle you have it well not be the best for that situation.

Going by what Idaho Sharpshooter said and you agree with. I take he meant for killing a man the 308 has no advantage over the 223. I disagree with that. That man may not always be standing in a plain opening for you to shoot at him. It's a fact that the 308 had more penetration on just about any (trees, cars, walls,etc.) then a 223.