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Poor mans 404
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I know this has to hvae been done before, but I'm not finding any info online, maybe you guys can help.

Take a 375 type case (Wby, 416 rem, H&H) with the Rem/Wby minimal taper and sharp shoulders, neck up to .423 and be sitting between 450/400 and modern 404J ballistics. Anyone know what this would be called? Not the 425 Expres, thats on the 2.5" case. I've got a lot of 300 Wby brass and I think I might be done with the 300 so I have a rifle and brass, but don't want all the expense of making a true 404 Jef


If you think every possible niche has been filled already, thank a wildcatter!
 
Posts: 2201 | Location: CO | Registered: 14 December 2007Reply With Quote
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I like to have a belt or a shoulder but I dont like both but that is me. I would like to see a 404-374 H+H but no "Improving" what you will have is a belted tapered case without a shoulder. slick feeding!!! rebore a 375 and use a neck throat 423 reamer. fireform or just neck up formed brass. Call it the 423-375



If you lose your ammo just buy some 375 and swap bullets using an expander and your ingenuity. this wildcat has a little performance increase with the larger bullet but the ease and cost of conversion and ease of forming cases to be found in Africa is the beauty.


577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

*we band of 45-70ers* (Founder)
Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder)
"Bubba" by the grace of God.

Four legs good! Two legs baa-d!

E Pluribus Popularem et Republican (Out of many, Democrat and Republican)

“We hold these truths to be self-evident. All men and women created … by the — you know — you know the thing.”

Joe Biden.
 
Posts: 26283 | Location: Where tech companies are trying to control you and brainwash you. | Registered: 29 April 2005Reply With Quote
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use a 458 winmag case, and its called a 425 african express ... by savage....

using full length cases would cause one to spend about 1K just for the action...

and, if one really wanted the poorman's///

click on my 416 AR link below


opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club

Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR
Order AR/AccRel Brass
What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR.
476AR,
http://www.weaponsmith.com
 
Posts: 34736 | Location: Conroe, TX | Registered: 01 June 2002Reply With Quote
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He already has the longer action.

Reboring a 375 to 404 is the way imho.

I would sell or trade the 300 for a 375.

keep the sights ect and feeding should not be an issue on an unimproved case.


577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

*we band of 45-70ers* (Founder)
Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder)
"Bubba" by the grace of God.

Four legs good! Two legs baa-d!

E Pluribus Popularem et Republican (Out of many, Democrat and Republican)

“We hold these truths to be self-evident. All men and women created … by the — you know — you know the thing.”

Joe Biden.
 
Posts: 26283 | Location: Where tech companies are trying to control you and brainwash you. | Registered: 29 April 2005Reply With Quote
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I already HAVE the 3.6" action, so thats not a problem. Now if I wanted to build a normal 404 J, then yes, I'd be looking for a CRF M70 and spending over 1000$

However, I'm no purist by any means, so my push feed M70 will do just fine.

So the 425 Express...just longer lol thats what I'm looking for. I didn't even stop to think that if I had the belt, I'd need no shoulder *doh* so thanks for pointing that out BS. I also like the pull-and-shove idea in the worst case scenario of lost ammo.

So no info on this? I mean seriously...this has to have been done lol these 2 cartridges are SUPER old, and it seems every case has been necked up and down in every conceivable caliber


If you think every possible niche has been filled already, thank a wildcatter!
 
Posts: 2201 | Location: CO | Registered: 14 December 2007Reply With Quote
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Selling/trading the 300 wouldn't really get me very far. I don't run into many 3.6" rifles used around here as it is, and the stock has some scratches, which is why I got it so cheap. I'd probably only get 150$ trade or sale from a LGS on it. Cheapest route is just to rebarrel


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Posts: 2201 | Location: CO | Registered: 14 December 2007Reply With Quote
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I also like the pull-and-shove idea in the worst case scenario of lost ammo.

Big Grin


577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

*we band of 45-70ers* (Founder)
Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder)
"Bubba" by the grace of God.

Four legs good! Two legs baa-d!

E Pluribus Popularem et Republican (Out of many, Democrat and Republican)

“We hold these truths to be self-evident. All men and women created … by the — you know — you know the thing.”

Joe Biden.
 
Posts: 26283 | Location: Where tech companies are trying to control you and brainwash you. | Registered: 29 April 2005Reply With Quote
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also makes a great case for the 375 Taylor, as I'm sure 338 Win Mag ammo can be had around the world, pull the bullet and stuff a 375 in there!


If you think every possible niche has been filled already, thank a wildcatter!
 
Posts: 2201 | Location: CO | Registered: 14 December 2007Reply With Quote
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Being that the shoulder and neck juncture of the 375 is so shallow it would be easier to get the neck to feed simply expanded formed brass.


577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

*we band of 45-70ers* (Founder)
Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder)
"Bubba" by the grace of God.

Four legs good! Two legs baa-d!

E Pluribus Popularem et Republican (Out of many, Democrat and Republican)

“We hold these truths to be self-evident. All men and women created … by the — you know — you know the thing.”

Joe Biden.
 
Posts: 26283 | Location: Where tech companies are trying to control you and brainwash you. | Registered: 29 April 2005Reply With Quote
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Now the question is, away from my loading bench how would one go about expanding .375 to .423?


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Posts: 2201 | Location: CO | Registered: 14 December 2007Reply With Quote
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THIS IS WHAT YOU GET WHEN YOU TAKE OUT THE SHOULDER OF THE 375 h&h AND STUFF A 404 IN IT.

OOPs stupid caps lock...

I would use an expander die and a hammer or rock if need be. Big Grin

Think of this as a 458 lott but a lot more taper and lower recoil.




577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

*we band of 45-70ers* (Founder)
Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder)
"Bubba" by the grace of God.

Four legs good! Two legs baa-d!

E Pluribus Popularem et Republican (Out of many, Democrat and Republican)

“We hold these truths to be self-evident. All men and women created … by the — you know — you know the thing.”

Joe Biden.
 
Posts: 26283 | Location: Where tech companies are trying to control you and brainwash you. | Registered: 29 April 2005Reply With Quote
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NICE!

I just got a few emails from my gunsmith about doin a switch barrel on this rifle. I think having a 300 and 404 barrel (maybe a 375 Wby stuck in there too) solves a lot of problems! That covers everything I could ever want to shoot at in 1 gun. Of course if something happens to that gun, well its rental time lol


If you think every possible niche has been filled already, thank a wildcatter!
 
Posts: 2201 | Location: CO | Registered: 14 December 2007Reply With Quote
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Glad you like it...

I dont have the time or money to keep up with all my ideas but I like this one for its merrits.

Cheap and easy.


577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

*we band of 45-70ers* (Founder)
Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder)
"Bubba" by the grace of God.

Four legs good! Two legs baa-d!

E Pluribus Popularem et Republican (Out of many, Democrat and Republican)

“We hold these truths to be self-evident. All men and women created … by the — you know — you know the thing.”

Joe Biden.
 
Posts: 26283 | Location: Where tech companies are trying to control you and brainwash you. | Registered: 29 April 2005Reply With Quote
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I can only imagine the rediculous number of guns I would own if I had the time and money to do every idea that came into my head lol. I'd have entire vaults of rifles for EACH caliber lol


If you think every possible niche has been filled already, thank a wildcatter!
 
Posts: 2201 | Location: CO | Registered: 14 December 2007Reply With Quote
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Did not Keith do this, in the 423 OKH Mag?
I do not have my regular library here, so I can not double check...


Bent Fossdal
Reiso
5685 Uggdal
Norway

 
Posts: 1707 | Location: Norway | Registered: 21 April 2005Reply With Quote
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Bent -

I see lots of 411 and 404 wildcats on places like Qual Cart, but they don't tell you what they are, just the name. I KNOW someone had to have done a 375/404 before, but I can't find any info about it. If it IS the 424 OKH then thats even better, because Qual Cart has brass. If you find out anything please let me know!


If you think every possible niche has been filled already, thank a wildcatter!
 
Posts: 2201 | Location: CO | Registered: 14 December 2007Reply With Quote
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I am trying to get clarification on the 404-375 issue... any help would be appreciated.


577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

*we band of 45-70ers* (Founder)
Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder)
"Bubba" by the grace of God.

Four legs good! Two legs baa-d!

E Pluribus Popularem et Republican (Out of many, Democrat and Republican)

“We hold these truths to be self-evident. All men and women created … by the — you know — you know the thing.”

Joe Biden.
 
Posts: 26283 | Location: Where tech companies are trying to control you and brainwash you. | Registered: 29 April 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by boom stick:
THIS IS WHAT YOU GET WHEN YOU TAKE OUT THE SHOULDER OF THE 375 h&h AND STUFF A 404 IN IT.

OOPs stupid caps lock...

I would use an expander die and a hammer or rock if need be. Big Grin

Think of this as a 458 lott but a lot more taper and lower recoil.


Why not neck 458 Lott brass to 423?


Good hunting,

Andy

-----------------------------
Thomas Jefferson: “To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.”

 
Posts: 6707 | Location: Oklahoma, USA | Registered: 14 March 2001Reply With Quote
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Now that Hornady is loading the 404 Jeffery, the original is the poorest way to go anyway...
Nr. 2 is the .425 Express.
Any other is not poor at all...


Bent Fossdal
Reiso
5685 Uggdal
Norway

 
Posts: 1707 | Location: Norway | Registered: 21 April 2005Reply With Quote
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Me likey the original!


Good hunting,

Andy

-----------------------------
Thomas Jefferson: “To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.”

 
Posts: 6707 | Location: Oklahoma, USA | Registered: 14 March 2001Reply With Quote
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I got another confirmation that the 424 okh had a shoulder so it was an improved case. So this is new that I know of so far.

Yes forming Lott brass will be easy. The idea of using modified factory 375 ammo in a pinch was a neet idea.


577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

*we band of 45-70ers* (Founder)
Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder)
"Bubba" by the grace of God.

Four legs good! Two legs baa-d!

E Pluribus Popularem et Republican (Out of many, Democrat and Republican)

“We hold these truths to be self-evident. All men and women created … by the — you know — you know the thing.”

Joe Biden.
 
Posts: 26283 | Location: Where tech companies are trying to control you and brainwash you. | Registered: 29 April 2005Reply With Quote
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The original 404 is still not the cheapest way, Bent. Brass costs more, I wouldnt use factory anyways as I reload, and the modifications needed to the action raise the price of the rifle conversion. And really all this is, is an extended 425 Express more or less.

Using 458 Lott brass would be the same as using 375 H&H brass lol neck one up, or one down. Heck I could even use 8mm Rem Mag, 416 rem Mag or really just about any full length 2.85" case. I already have 100 pc of 300 Wby brass, so this is probably what I would use. Might be a little tough working the brass out straight, but at the same time once its in season Midway sells 1x fired 375 H&H brass for 10$ per 20


If you think every possible niche has been filled already, thank a wildcatter!
 
Posts: 2201 | Location: CO | Registered: 14 December 2007Reply With Quote
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MileHighShooter.

Multiple confirmations that the 424 was an improved case with a shoulder.

This seems to be an undone wildcat so far.

Pete from Quality Cart said we could do the unimproved version headstamped at the same cost as the 424.

Only question is what to name it bewildered

404 Safari?
423-375?
404 H&H?
10.75x73?


577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

*we band of 45-70ers* (Founder)
Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder)
"Bubba" by the grace of God.

Four legs good! Two legs baa-d!

E Pluribus Popularem et Republican (Out of many, Democrat and Republican)

“We hold these truths to be self-evident. All men and women created … by the — you know — you know the thing.”

Joe Biden.
 
Posts: 26283 | Location: Where tech companies are trying to control you and brainwash you. | Registered: 29 April 2005Reply With Quote
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404 ARB? For 404 Accurate Reloading Belted?


If you think every possible niche has been filled already, thank a wildcatter!
 
Posts: 2201 | Location: CO | Registered: 14 December 2007Reply With Quote
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Let's just call it a 404-375 for now.

As you can see the neck of the 404 is 2 thou larger than the 375 shoulder. so the necking up will take out the shoulder.

The Neck ares that will give the bullet tension is .45" or just over a cal length neck.

so taper to 2.4" and 2.85" length.

I think 300 @ 2500, 350@ 2400, 400@ 2300 and 450's @ 2,200 would be a good goal for this case.







577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

*we band of 45-70ers* (Founder)
Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder)
"Bubba" by the grace of God.

Four legs good! Two legs baa-d!

E Pluribus Popularem et Republican (Out of many, Democrat and Republican)

“We hold these truths to be self-evident. All men and women created … by the — you know — you know the thing.”

Joe Biden.
 
Posts: 26283 | Location: Where tech companies are trying to control you and brainwash you. | Registered: 29 April 2005Reply With Quote
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So in the spirit of "poor mans 404"

Cheap brass and a rebore or rebarrel away. Minimal mods.


577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

*we band of 45-70ers* (Founder)
Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder)
"Bubba" by the grace of God.

Four legs good! Two legs baa-d!

E Pluribus Popularem et Republican (Out of many, Democrat and Republican)

“We hold these truths to be self-evident. All men and women created … by the — you know — you know the thing.”

Joe Biden.
 
Posts: 26283 | Location: Where tech companies are trying to control you and brainwash you. | Registered: 29 April 2005Reply With Quote
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Go figure, after so many ideas, the one new idea is combining 2 ancient cartridges together lol. I'm in love with it, the ease of building, loading, brass, getting stuck without ammo and just fitting some 423 bullets in a 375 case. And I think you're right on with those ballistics, old 404 numbers should be a breeze.

Now, as far as the chamber itself...how do you propose I go about that? New reamer, or just rebore a 375 H&H and see if that "creates" the chamber we're looking for?


If you think every possible niche has been filled already, thank a wildcatter!
 
Posts: 2201 | Location: CO | Registered: 14 December 2007Reply With Quote
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jumping

Glad you like it!

Well if you had an existing 375 maybe you could get by with opening up some 375 dies and a neck/throat reamer but a rough and finish reamer is best and to have custom dies made. Also got to make sure the 375 barrel profile is thick enough for the rebore.

If you start from scratch with a new barrel you could do a combo of using the 375 reamer with a floating pilot and the 423 neck throat reamer.

There are a few ways to cut corners but a whole new set of reamers and dies is best.

Yes, I think this Idea is long overdue. with the advent of the rise from near death of the 423 bullet thanks to hornady and North Fork this is a beauty.

It's beauty comes from its simplicity and practicality... or the best you can get when wildcatting.

The 404-375 name is important. First off if you know cart nomenclature it will tell you what it is from the name and if you made a 404 stamp you could headstamp your own brass using 375 cases.

Add this to the other few but fine belted no shoulder rifle cases.


577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

*we band of 45-70ers* (Founder)
Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder)
"Bubba" by the grace of God.

Four legs good! Two legs baa-d!

E Pluribus Popularem et Republican (Out of many, Democrat and Republican)

“We hold these truths to be self-evident. All men and women created … by the — you know — you know the thing.”

Joe Biden.
 
Posts: 26283 | Location: Where tech companies are trying to control you and brainwash you. | Registered: 29 April 2005Reply With Quote
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So 404-375 H&H it is! I am curious about doing my own stamping though...I'll have to look into that more. That would be great, seeing as H&H brass is about as cheap as it gets!

And don't forget Barnes and Woodleigh in the .423 arena Wink More then likely, I'd play with Hornady and Barnes first, just for the simple fact they're cheaper bullets.

Powder should be an easy one too, I've got plenty of 4064 and 4350, I see those in 375 recipes frequently.


If you think every possible niche has been filled already, thank a wildcatter!
 
Posts: 2201 | Location: CO | Registered: 14 December 2007Reply With Quote
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Glad to hear clap

Well I assume you will be doing the switch barrel on you WBY action right? If so a new barrel of at least a 1 in 12 twist to keep the 450 woodleighs stable imho. Well first things first... For the sake of lead time an order of the reamers are a priority. Dimensions would be easy since they are of all known factors. A dummy round or two would be good to play with and measure dimensions of necked up 375 brass. If headstamped brass was wanted that is a 4 month lead time. Headstamp brass is nice but only needed to travel but it is cool.

So a list that comes to mind.

Dummy rounds
Reamer order
Dies order
Barrel order
Trip to the smith
Form brass
load
BOOM! BOOM

Making wildcat history is fun banana

Oh yeah... what barrel length would you use?


577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

*we band of 45-70ers* (Founder)
Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder)
"Bubba" by the grace of God.

Four legs good! Two legs baa-d!

E Pluribus Popularem et Republican (Out of many, Democrat and Republican)

“We hold these truths to be self-evident. All men and women created … by the — you know — you know the thing.”

Joe Biden.
 
Posts: 26283 | Location: Where tech companies are trying to control you and brainwash you. | Registered: 29 April 2005Reply With Quote
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Well I guess I'll have to get me some H&H brass..although I have a few pieces of 300 H&H, I don't think the simple up sizing will come out the same. And then some .423 bullets. Good thing the gun show is next weekend!

Barrel and smith stuff is already taken care of, I have a pal who is a 'smith for a very famous and widely used shooting sports supply business. In fact, in a few months when you're watching the weekend shooting shows and you see little segments from Larry Potterfield about the ongoing 300 Wby project...guess who is building that gun Wink


If you think every possible niche has been filled already, thank a wildcatter!
 
Posts: 2201 | Location: CO | Registered: 14 December 2007Reply With Quote
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Awesome stuff!

You are halfway there...

Let me know when you are ready for the reamer specs to order the reamer.

Does anyone else out there "need" a 404???


577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

*we band of 45-70ers* (Founder)
Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder)
"Bubba" by the grace of God.

Four legs good! Two legs baa-d!

E Pluribus Popularem et Republican (Out of many, Democrat and Republican)

“We hold these truths to be self-evident. All men and women created … by the — you know — you know the thing.”

Joe Biden.
 
Posts: 26283 | Location: Where tech companies are trying to control you and brainwash you. | Registered: 29 April 2005Reply With Quote
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Well since this is a real project now Lets start a formal Wildcat thread for this Project

Long live the 404-375 BOOM


577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

*we band of 45-70ers* (Founder)
Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder)
"Bubba" by the grace of God.

Four legs good! Two legs baa-d!

E Pluribus Popularem et Republican (Out of many, Democrat and Republican)

“We hold these truths to be self-evident. All men and women created … by the — you know — you know the thing.”

Joe Biden.
 
Posts: 26283 | Location: Where tech companies are trying to control you and brainwash you. | Registered: 29 April 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by MileHighShooter:
The original 404 is still not the cheapest way, Bent. Brass costs more, I wouldnt use factory anyways as I reload, and the modifications needed to the action raise the price of the rifle conversion. And really all this is, is an extended 425 Express more or less.



Well, if you wanna go cheep...
The new cat is in the prosess, and I like it, but it is not a poor mans .404.
Poor mans .404 would be to buy a factory CZ and use Rum brass. Not 100 % reliable, but close.
This cat is of course cheep when the chamber is made and dies are bought, but...

But hey, good luck, mate!!


Bent Fossdal
Reiso
5685 Uggdal
Norway

 
Posts: 1707 | Location: Norway | Registered: 21 April 2005Reply With Quote
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As I put on the other thread there is a diferential on the custom stuff but the cheap brass, reloading and cheaper smithing bill will help make that up.


577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

*we band of 45-70ers* (Founder)
Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder)
"Bubba" by the grace of God.

Four legs good! Two legs baa-d!

E Pluribus Popularem et Republican (Out of many, Democrat and Republican)

“We hold these truths to be self-evident. All men and women created … by the — you know — you know the thing.”

Joe Biden.
 
Posts: 26283 | Location: Where tech companies are trying to control you and brainwash you. | Registered: 29 April 2005Reply With Quote
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Bent

I'm kinda curious as to why hold the 425 express in such low esteem??


I tend to use more than enough gun
 
Posts: 1253 | Location: lake iliamna alaska | Registered: 10 February 2005Reply With Quote
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I hold the 425 Express in very high esteem! Fact of the matter is though, I have a 3.6" action to work with, so I wanted a full length cartrdige without modding the action to feed the larger 404 Jeff.


If you think every possible niche has been filled already, thank a wildcatter!
 
Posts: 2201 | Location: CO | Registered: 14 December 2007Reply With Quote
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The 425 express is great... for staring loads Big Grin


577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

*we band of 45-70ers* (Founder)
Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder)
"Bubba" by the grace of God.

Four legs good! Two legs baa-d!

E Pluribus Popularem et Republican (Out of many, Democrat and Republican)

“We hold these truths to be self-evident. All men and women created … by the — you know — you know the thing.”

Joe Biden.
 
Posts: 26283 | Location: Where tech companies are trying to control you and brainwash you. | Registered: 29 April 2005Reply With Quote
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I like the cartridge idea and I think it would have been a better cartridge for H&H than their .400 H&H with its .411 caliber bullet. Also, had H&H produced this round I believe they’d have used the UK norm of identifying the parent case first followed by the caliber – the inverse of the USA norm that you’ve used - in naming this cartridge. I also doubt that H&H would have given Jeffery, their competition, any credit in this cartridge by using the .404 designation in its nomenclature.

So I perceive that they’d have named the cartridge one, or all, of the following:
.375/.423 H&H Magnum, or
.423 H&H Magnum, or
.423 Belted Rimless Nitro Express (.423 BRNE)


Jim coffee
"Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid"
John Wayne
 
Posts: 4953 | Location: Central Texas | Registered: 15 September 2007Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by jeffeosso:
use a 458 winmag case, and its called a 425 african express ... by savage....

using full length cases would cause one to spend about 1K just for the action...

and, if one really wanted the poorman's///

click on my 416 AR link below


Cartridge was conceived by Cameron Hopkins, and designed by Whit Collins. It is a 300 Win Mag case, necked up to accept .423 caliber bullets. Savage, to my knowledge was the only gunmaker to ever offer it as a production rifle in that chambering.


 
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