and the darkness did not overcome it.

A blessed "solstice" to you!

friar

I've got a question about the banner, and I suppose this would be the place for it, as this comes as close as possible to a thread on the subject...

Now, I'm not anti pagan etc...and I think the banner is kinda cool in a way, but -

How in the world does anyone really know what ancient pagans in general (as opposed to wiccans) believed in?? How do we know they were or are "into" Stonehenge or any form of Solstice?

Taking a pure wild guess on this, I'd imagine an ancient pagan might be more interested in "stuff" like Beowulf, Siegfried, the Nibelungen, elves, fire breathing dragons and something like this here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F...99_Walkure_title.jpg

Ötzi the Iceman would have known...

Ah, Allen Day day again. Love it.

Sunrise at 4.52am here for three days, sunset a 10.05pm.

Shack, given Stonehenge and New Grange predate Beowulf by maybe 4000 years, doubt there is much connection.

I thought that Winter Solstice was "Allen Day Day"
No disrespect to Allen. I think he was a good man. I always think of Allen on the solstices.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
I thought that Winter Solstice was "Allen Day Day"
No disrespect to Allen. I think he was a good man. I always think of Allen on the solstices.

+1 As do I. While I am Christian I have a great affinity for celebrating Earthly passings as theyh do affect all life on the planet.

Thank you Don for putting up the banner today even though you are on vacation!

quote:

How in the world does anyone really know what ancient pagans in general (as opposed to wiccans) believed in?? How do we know they were or are "into" Stonehenge or any form of Solstice?

How does anyone REALLY know what the original Christians believed in??? All we have to go pon is what has been handed down to us after m any translations that were written to put forth the writers own beliefs?

I wonder. Could we all have a bit of pagan deep down in there someplace...that association with the earthly passings and the primeval. And the identification with how the ancients felt about hunting in particular.

For that matter, I've long been of the opinion that the ancient cave drawings of animals, the meanings of which scientists have puzzled over, in fact don't need any explanation if you're a hunter. It's simple.

All they've found is just a prehistoric hunting club. Your original club of Bubbas in fact.

We used to have this here duck club in a swamp. And on a blackboard in the cave, I mean clubhouse you could see where there was a crude drawing resembling an alligator or other such. Now what would a palentologist make of that? How could he EVER in the world figure out the true meaning, which was - you were supposed to let other hunters arriving late know which spot you and your buddies had already gone to so everyone wouldn't show up at the same place. The deal was, this meant some of us have gone to the "Gator Hole", so the rest of you find somewheres else to hunt.

You can probably guess why it was called that...

I like the wy you think, and I don't think you are very far off base with your estimation pof things.

And as for those cave drawings of bison or whatever, why, that's real obvious.

All that means is someone done bagged the limit.

I see it now. Grog, he brags on hisself, "I done killed me a heap big bison and drew it up on the wall here!". And Thag, not to be outdone in the least, he say, "why that's nothing, I bagged myself TWO big bison, with one spear throw".

To which Grog retorts - "the Hell you say!!!"

quote:

Originally posted by Shack:
And as for those cave drawings of bison or whatever, why, that's real obvious.

All that means is someone done bagged the limit.

I see it now. Grog, he brags on hisself, "I done killed me a heap big bison and drew it up on the wall here!". And Thag, not to be outdone in the least, he say, "why that's nothing, I bagged myself TWO big bison, with one spear throw".

To which Grog retorts - "the Hell you say!!!"

That reminds me of a cartoon I saw once where there was a dead wooly mammoth surrounded by a pile of spears, and it has just one spear in its heart.

One cave man is saying to another "Perhaps we should write that place down!"

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

How in the world does anyone really know what ancient pagans in general (as opposed to wiccans) believed in?? How do we know they were or are "into" Stonehenge or any form of Solstice?

How does anyone REALLY know what the original Christians believed in??? All we have to go pon is what has been handed down to us after m any translations that were written to put forth the writers own beliefs?

According the Bible, the early Christians believed that Jesus was God's Son, born a man, was the exact representation of the Father, died and was raised from the dead to His eternal place at God's right hand. The early Christians and the Christians today believe this and die for it.


The Bible is the inspired Word of God written by 40 authors over several centuries. The early Jews and Christians canonized the books as "God breathed" words for us to know Him.
Anything or anyone that set up an idol, in the form of a pile of stacked rocks or worshiped an inanimate object such as the moon or sun, were pagans that did not practice worship of God. They made their own god.

There is a big difference and Christians today worship and believe what the first Christians did when they were called Christians at Antioch.

Remembering Allen Day along with the peaceful Pagans...

I'm pleased to report that my goat sacrifice at dawn went according to plan, and that the world is safe for the remainder of this rotation.

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
There is a big difference and Christians today worship and believe what the first Christians did when they were called Christians at Antioch.

quote:

Originally posted by Shack:
How in the world does anyone really know what ancient pagans in general (as opposed to wiccans) believed in?? How do we know they were or are "into" Stonehenge or any form of Solstice?

You do understand that "Pagans" existing well into the 1400s, right? and that the "remove" from what they thought was 1400 years closer than what a certain carpenter cum rabbi, scion of a royal family, might have said, as written down by people 100 years after he died, right?

Happy Birthday El Jeffe!

Humans have been celebrating one thing or another with nature long before religion came along to ruin everything.

Religion has not ruined anything. Man has mis-applied and not applied or lived out the tenets of what the Lord God Almighty has asked of us.

He has asked that 1. Love God with all your heart, all your soul, all your might, and 2. Love your neighbor as yourself.

Not exactly rocket science or brain surgery. It is "heart" surgery, however....


PS - Religion does not explain nature, but TRUTH does explain nature (creation).

quote:

How in the world does anyone really know what ancient pagans in general (as opposed to wiccans) believed in?? How do we know they were or are "into" Stonehenge or any form of Solstice?

Sorry Shack, but the references you made to Siegfried, the Ring etc. are MUCH later than the pagan beliefs we are talking about. There was a prior thread about this some time back. We actually know quite a bit about the beliefs and practices of the Druids, Isis worshipers etc. You may not, but seeing as the Druids practiced in Britain, and were there before the Romans, and were the chief opponents of the Roman occupation the Brits know quite a bit about them. Now, Stonehenge is completely different, being dated not to 2000 years ago, but 4500 years ago. We know very little about the folks who built that, who they were, or why they built it.
Peter

All one has to do is read Astrix!

It is all explained in their behavior.

Another long time Asterix and Obelix fan here.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

How in the world does anyone really know what ancient pagans in general (as opposed to wiccans) believed in?? How do we know they were or are "into" Stonehenge or any form of Solstice?

How does anyone REALLY know what the original Christians believed in??? All we have to go pon is what has been handed down to us after m any translations that were written to put forth the writers own beliefs?

Study Orthodox Christianity, it is the same church for the last 1800 years.

Some of them are over 1500 years old in Armenia and Ethiopia.

Not to debate the issue, but Christianity has been very well defined and demonstrated for 2000 years. Many Christians (John the Apostle, Paul, Augustine, Josephus, Origen, etc..) attest as actual witnesses to what Jesus said and did as well as the physical resurrection of a man the Roman's crucified. There are no other instances ever of a person surviving a crucifixion by the Romans. Jesus was killed and was verified dead by the Romans, Jews (Nicodemas and Joseph of Arimathea - members of the Jewish Sanhedrin), then was visibly seen by over 500 people with 15 to 20 being named as eye witnesses.

The teachings of Jesus were preserved as they were written by eye witnesses( John, James, Peter, Jude). Paul was unique in that he did not see Jesus alive before the crucifixion but saw him after. Luke and Mark were with Paul and Peter getting their information directly from eye witnesses.

As to the integrity of the Bible (Old and New Testaments) - the Jewish writers of the Old Testament were extraordinarily accurate in the copying of texts as evidenced by the Dead Sea Scrolls and many other documents from antiquity. As to the New Testament, scriptures we use today were written in the 30-70 years time frame after the resurrection. There are existing copies of these letters and gospels that date to 150AD. Further, there is not a single piece of archeaologic evidence that contradicts or disproves a single event in scripture. Some items and locations have not yet been unearthed, but what has been unearthed has proven the accuracy of the Bible 100% so far.

Lastly, it is hard to explain away the changed lives of people who actual believe what was said/written about Jesus. Thousands of people in 2017 and last year have gone to their deaths rather than renounce their faith (Coptics in Egypt, Christians in Syria, Pakistan and other places).

It is hard to deny evidence that more clearly shows Jesus is the Living God, as He said He was and is. There is more evidence of Jesus life, death and resurrection than that Julius Ceasar ever lived - yet we believe that as fact....

Believe in cartoons if you wish or "pagan" whatever - they are pure fantasy with no evidence in the real world....

But be sure of what you believe and prepare to die and live eternally with your decision....

Good writeup Dogcat! Let me also add that the early church was very concerned about fidelity to 'the faith that had been handed down". Thus the opinions of folks like Marcion, the views of the Gnostics, Docetists, and later the Donatists were criticized and ruled heretical. Critics, of course, will see this as a move to decide "who is in and who is out" and just a power grab! I might add that the Didache has been dated to about AD 80 or so. Ultimately however it not about proof but belief. And it also not about getting "whacked" if you don't believe. The early Jews did not believe in a separate afterlife for the good as opposed to the evil. All continued to exist in Sheol. Yet they still sought to live their life according to the will of God!
This started out as a thread about other beliefs, including the Druids. Here is a quote from St. Francis:
"Praised be God for our Sister, Mother Earth, which brings forth varied fruits and grass and glowing flowers,"
Perhaps a far cry from "DRILL BABY DRILL"!!!
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by Claret_Dabbler:
Ah, Allen Day day again. Love it.

Sunrise at 4.52am here for three days, sunset a 10.05pm.

Shack, given Stonehenge and New Grange predate Beowulf by maybe 4000 years, doubt there is much connection.

Remembering Allen Day today with respect and a drink in his honor

quote:

Ultimately however it {is} not about proof but belief.

That is the most intelligent comment on the subject I have seen in a while. The Christian belief is, of course, a circular one as are most religions. It goes something like, "Christ is the son of God. WHY? Because the CHRISTIAN Bible says so. WHAT IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE SOMETHING THAT WAS WRITTEN NO CLOSER THAM 100 YEARS AFTER CHRIST DIED (NEW TESTAMENT)? They you are wrong and will go to hell. WHO SAYS SO? The CHRISTIAN Bible. SO GOD IS SO CRUEL AS TO CONDEMN EVERYONE ELSE TO A SURE DEATH AND ETERNAL DAMNATION? Yup, that's the way it works. WHY? Because 40 guys got together and said so even though there might be further information coming years later.

As Peter said, it is a matter of belief only.


40 guys can't be wrong and besides 500 people saw him after he was dead. WELL IN THAT CASE ELVIS IS ALIVE AND WELL!!!!!

If one was to read the beginning of the Bhagavad Gita, one would find a very similar happening of a god coming to human form and directing humans. And just think, it was written 400 years BEFORE Christ was born.

I wish everyone peace and prosperity in whatever they may believe and may it comfort them in the bad times and provide strength when they are weak.

And I think it is cool that the Solstice coincides with the Ursid Meteor shower.

My oldest son, whom I lost in May, always said that he was born "on the darkest day of the year." I always marked the solstice with his birthday. This year will be a bit darker without him.

That said, it is also a day of peace and reflection. I bid you all good cheer.

Doug so sorry about your loss. A little peace and reflection every day should be our mantra.

All the best.

Thanks. I appreciate the thoughts.

Arguing about religion on the internet is not going to change anyone's mind.

No , but it fills in those otherwise-quiet moments whilst we plan our next character assassination attack on fellow members

Cheers to you Allen Day

quote:

Originally posted by muzza:
No , but it fills in those otherwise-quiet moments whilst we plan our next character assassination attack on fellow members

I was hoping the Solstice would make your Horse Teeth stupid ruler disappear!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I was hoping the Solstice would make your Horse Teeth stupid ruler disappear!

Witch one?

If only sir - if only.....