Hello Huvius,

Thanks for the reply.

I too am interested in the results. But I'm convinced it WILL work and maintain the same regulation as the more powerful load, based on my personal experiences with several my Big Bore Double Rifles.

I'm sure you have heard of Cal Pappas. He is one of the leading authorities on Big Bore Double Rifles. He has written several fine books and published dozens of articles about Double Rifles. You may want to review Cal's Web page: www.CalPappas.com Look in the Directory along the left side - click on "Cal Answers Emails" and search for 75% rule.

He references the 75% rule in many of his email responses. In one respose he states; "...this is not carved in stone but more and more double rifle men are finding this a good way to obtain acceptable accuracy while enjoying their double rifle with less recoil. You may have to adjust the powder charge a bit up or down but you will be in the ballpark. And, it may not work at all..."

One Elmer Keith reference I remember said; either, "75% Velocity - with Full Bullet Weight" or "75% Bullet Weight at Full Velocity". Another said; either, "75% Powder Charge - with Full Bullet Weight" or "75% Bullet Weight with Full Powder Charge".

I've used the 75% "Velocity" variable with my experiment, albeit is very close to 75% of the Full Powder Charge as well. I'm a big fan of using AA5744 Powder because it ignites exceptionally well with Big Cases, and works over a wide range of Velocites. Also, you can obtain reasonably high velocities with much less powder weight, which reduces recoil because powder weight is a factor.

You mention two variables in determining regulation. I believe there is a third, that being "powder burn time within the barrel" which can be different, even at the same velocity. That can affect the dynamics of the guns recoil while the bullet is still traveling down the barrel, which can influence regulation.

In many ways, double rifle regulation is a deep dark mystery, and I'm just another man in the dark, feeling for answers.

I'll keep you posted.

I have really enjoyed this thread. It was not clear to me if the barrels were threaded for attachment to the monoblock or attached by some other means ?

Barrels are soldered in the monoblock.

quote:

Originally posted by buckstix:
I'm sure you have heard of Cal Pappas. He is one of the leading authorities on Big Bore Double Rifles. He has written several fine books and published dozens of articles about Double Rifles. You may want to review Cal's Web page: www.CalPappas.com Look in the Directory along the left side - click on "Cal Answers Emails" and search for 75% rule.

He references the 75% rule in many of his email responses. In one respose he states; "...this is not carved in stone but more and more double rifle men are finding this a good way to obtain acceptable accuracy while enjoying their double rifle with less recoil. You may have to adjust the powder charge a bit up or down but you will be in the ballpark. And, it may not work at all..."

One Elmer Keith reference I remember said; either, "75% Velocity - with Full Bullet Weight" or "75% Bullet Weight at Full Velocity". Another said; either, "75% Powder Charge - with Full Bullet Weight" or "75% Bullet Weight with Full Powder Charge".
I've used the 75% "Velocity" variable with my experiment, albeit is very close to 75% of the Full Powder Charge as well.

I know Cal somewhat and fully understand the 75% rule.
However, what you are attempting is more like the 133% rule.
If your regulation is set at 75% of the standard velicity, you will have to increase the regulated velocity by 133% to get to that standard. You are working in the opposite direction one would be when applying the 75% rule.
Seems to me that your rifle will behave as any other double would when speeding the bullet up to 133% the regulated velocity with the same weight bullet - crossing rights and lefts and possibly high overall grouping.
Hope I'm close to right on this one...

Hello Huvius.

Thanks for the reply.

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:
Hope I'm close to right on this one...

Not really.

My VC 600NE groups under 2" at 50 yds with factory ammo traveling at about 1900 fps. It also groups under 2" at 50 yds at 1425 fps. (75% vel)

So, if that rifle would have been originally regulated to shoot the 1425 fps loads - it stands to reason that it would then also be regulated to shoot the 1900 fps loads. (133% vel)

Its basic math - its the exact "same" thing.

Gents:
This is getting interesting and fascinating!
So, let me play Devil's Advocate: if a .600 nitro fires accurately a 900-grain bullet at 1900 fps (which is what my vintage Wilkes shoots well as it was regulated for the 110-grain charge of cordite) then would it fire accurately with the same bullet at 22-2300 fps? I would imagine it would cross fire and, of course, be at unsafe pressures. However, since Buck is starting at a low velocity and attempting to fire accurately with the standard charge, then, who knows? As mentioned above, it will be very interesting to see the results as I don't know of anyone who has tried this before.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Gents:
This is getting interesting and fascinating!
So, let me play Devil's Advocate: if a .600 nitro fires accurately a 900-grain bullet at 1900 fps (which is what my vintage Wilkes shoots well as it was regulated for the 110-grain charge of cordite) then would it fire accurately with the same bullet at 22-2300 fps? I would imagine it would cross fire and, of course, be at unsafe pressures. However, since Buck is starting at a low velocity and attempting to fire accurately with the standard charge, then, who knows? As mentioned above, it will be very interesting to see the results as I don't know of anyone who has tried this before.
Cal

Hello cal pappas,

Thanks for the reply.

A very thought provoking analogy. However, I dont think you could get enough powder into the case to obtain the 22-2300 fps velocity.

I have no knowledge of anyone attempting a low velocity regulation method such as I'm testing.

But, who knows, perhaps the Industry regulators have been doing this all along, and kept it a secret from the shooting public in order to protect their reputations; and their regulators from repetitive recoil injury.

I know, my last comment is controversial, and perhaps a lot of - by the way - Does anyone know why this forum has a Buck Stix flag?

quote:

Its basic math - its the exact "same" thing.

If basic math is all that is needed to understand and effectively regulate a double rifle, there wouldn't be thousands of posts on hundreds of forums about it nor would there be age old methods of regulation employed by the world's most highly regarded gunmakers in use this very day.

My point is, going UP in velocity is quite a different proposition than going DOWN in velocity. Your 25yd targets are a far cry from what you are going to attempt with your 700 but that said, it will likely look to be well regulated at 25yds too as most every double will. The supposition that your 600 is inherently going to shoot a 3" composite group at 100yds (based on its 25yd performance) is certainly basic math but not reality.

Out of curiosity, what does Aaron think it will do?

Hello Huvius,

Thanks for the reply.

When I get my 700NE back, I'll complete my testing and post the results here. Until then, further debate on the merits of my experiment is pointless. It will be what it will be, and my test targets will either prove, or disprove my hypothesis. Either way, I will then learn from fact, not baseless opinion.

As to 100 yard extrapolated groups, I never said such a thing is linear. Although in theory it could be. I posted my 25 yard comparison targets for reference because I only recorded the 50 yard data in my log, and didn't photograph the actual targets. (camera battery went dead)

For Aaron's opinion, you'll have to ask him.

I am extremely pleased with the quality of Aaron's work, and his timely progress on my project.

FYI - Here is one of my VC 600NE 75% Velocity 100 yard targets. I'm happy with that.

Buck, I am not trying to start a pissing match here but to add to the discussion and my own understanding of the subject.
Reading your posts one sees that the target from your 600 above at 100yds shows R&L shooting wider than the target that came with your rifle. That stands to reason in the commonly accepted belief that higher velocity pushes the shots together. In this case, I don't know if those in the know would think that the 75% rule works with your VC.
Also, your own 25yd targets comparing full loads and reduced loads show the lower velocity slightly crossing. I have no idea if that information is of any value in this discussion as two shots crossing at 25yds will not be uncrossed at 50 or 100yds. Perhaps one of your groups would be considered an anomaly since they convey conflicting information.

In your experience, what conclusions do you glean from these results?

Huvius,

Typically the larger bore double rifles are much less "finicky" to regulate than the small bores.

This "Engineering" retired gentleman may by accident achieve "satisfactory" regulation to his personal acceptance level of this project.

That said, no major double rifle builder of historic name would use nor recommend this methodology- ie: regulating with a load that is not the final "regulation" load.
(In essence THIS lesser load IS the regulation load, not the standard "full" power load.)

This is not a shot at Aaron, as I doubt,(though he may chime in and speak for himself), that he recommended this "non-final full power regulation load" regulation method.

Glad to see the OP has this "hobby" project to occupy his retirement time.
Truly hope it turns out well for him, and he continues to enjoy the time spent.

However, before he gets to rewrite time proven regulation methodology, I respectfully suggest he might attempt his "theory" with lets say-- a 240 Flanged, 280 Flanged, 375 Flanged Magnum or even a 450-400 NE.

Post those such projects and results, assuming the accuracy results are within reason, say 2 -2.5" 4 shot group(R1,L1,R2,L2, sub-30 seconds total dwell time or even sub-60 seconds) at 50yds-
- and I for one will be impressed with the revolutionary methodology proposed here .

Hello Huvius,

Thanks for the reply.

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:
Reading your posts one sees that the target from your 600 above at 100yds shows R&L shooting wider than the target that came with your rifle. That stands to reason in the commonly accepted belief that higher velocity pushes the shots together. In this case, I don't know if those in the know would think that the 75% rule works with your VC.

As to my 100 yard 75% load target being a "wider spread" than the Factory regulation target - Well, of course, the Factory regulation target was fired at 50 meters, not at 100 yards like my 75% load.

Also, your own 25yd targets comparing full loads and reduced loads show the lower velocity slightly crossing. I have no idea if that information is of any value in this discussion as two shots crossing at 25yds will not be uncrossed at 50 or 100yds. Perhaps one of your groups would be considered an anomaly since they convey conflicting information.

In your experience, what conclusions do you glean from these results?

conclusion: This "minor" dispersion falls with my "iron sight" ability with my old eyes. And, anytime I get 3/4" groups at 25yds I'm happy.

Hello DuggaBoye,

Thanks for the reply.

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:
Huvius,

Typically the larger bore double rifles are much less "finicky" to regulate than the small bores.

This "Engineering" retired gentleman may by accident achieve "satisfactory" regulation to his personal acceptance level of this project.

Yes, as I have "by accident" achieved satisfactory regulation with several of my other double rifles, albeit, mostly Big Bores. My personal satisfaction is my goal.

That said, no major double rifle builder of historic name would use nor recommend this methodology- ie: regulating with a load that is not the final "regulation" load.

I never recommended they would.

(In essence THIS lesser load IS the regulation load, not the standard "full" power load.)

Well, I guess we'll see about that AFTER I fire some full loads and see how they group. Then again, had I not shared my experiment here, we wouldn't know which came first, low velocity, or high velocity regulation.

This is not a shot at Aaron, as I doubt,(though he may chime in and speak for himself), that he recommended this "non-final full power regulation load" regulation method.

Aaron did not recommend anything. I simply sent him "chronographed" loaded ammo and asked him to regulate my double rifle to that ammo. And he did a great job of it.

Glad to see the OP has this "hobby" project to occupy his retirement time.
Truly hope it turns out well for him, and he continues to enjoy the time spent.

There is no "turns out well" objective, only a test of a different approach to regulating my new 700NE double rifle. And it is "my" time.

However, before he gets to rewrite time proven regulation methodology, I respectfully suggest he might attempt his "theory" with lets say-- a 240 Flanged, 280 Flanged, 375 Flanged Magnum or even a 450-400 NE.

I just might try that. I have small caliber doubles in 8x57R, 8mm Lebel, 35 Win, and 9.3x74R, as well as 500BPE, 500NE, and 2 in 577-500. If do, I'll be sure to let you know.

Post those such projects and results, assuming the accuracy results are within reason, say 2 - 2.5" 4 shot group(R1,L1,R2,L2, sub-30 seconds total dwell time or even sub-60 seconds) at 50yds-

Yes, that's the firing sequence I use to test all my double Rifle groups.

- and I for one will be impressed with the revolutionary methodology proposed here .

I'm not proposing anything, or trying to impress anyone with a "revolutionary methodology", or trying to rewrite "time proven" regulation methodology, or least of all, looking for anyone's approval. I'm just sharing details about my 700NE Custom Build, and the experiment I'm conducting in regulating it.

I like the idea of your experiment Buckstix. Be nice if it could be done cheaper, but, these are the toys we choose to play with, so, it is what it is. You have a 50/50 chance, it either works or it doesn't, and you won't know til you try. There again, it is useable the way it is, maybe not for DG, but, there are plenty of other things to shoot at, that it will work just fine for. So, it isn't a failure,it's just another toy to play with. Have fun with it!!

Thank you Buckstix for taking the time to post on your project & rifle in general, very interesting & fine looking it is to !

Thank you also for persevering in this post to inform us even in the face of opposition .

Hello 209jones,

Thanks for the reply.

quote:

Originally posted by 209jones:
I like the idea of your experiment Buckstix. Be nice if it could be done cheaper, but, these are the toys we choose to play with, so, it is what it is.

In light of what a 700NE would cost from someone like H&H, I'm very pleased with my investment in this project.

You have a 50/50 chance, it either works or it doesn't, and you won't know til you try.

Yes, that's exactly right! It will be most interesting to see the results when I start testing. I plan to shoot at increasing velocity levels from 1500 fps to 2000 fps, in 100 fps intervals.

There again, it is useable the way it is, maybe not for DG, but, there are plenty of other things to shoot at, that it will work just fine for. So, it isn't a failure,it's just another toy to play with.

You are correct, there is no "failure" to be had, only "results".

Have fun with it!!
You bet I will! Even the 60 rounds I put through it during my load developement, were a HOOT!

Hello Sarge,

Thanks for the reply.

quote:

Originally posted by Sarg:
Thank you Buckstix for taking the time to post on your project & rifle in general, very interesting & fine looking it is to !

I thought others would be pleased to see the "trials and tribulations" one encounters going forward with such a project. I for one would never have guessed that the biggest obsticle would be obtaining the brass. Perhaps others will be inspired in face of their set-backs.

Thank you also for persevering in this post to inform us even in the face of opposition .

I don't really think of the negative comments as opposition, just "skeptics" in light of a hundred & fifty years of accepted methods - resisting change.

Hello All,

Here is a short update on Aaron's progress with my 700NE Custom build.


Action was pulled from the stock and the stock was inspected. (all is well)

The gap between the front of the forend wood and the new barrels has been eliminated.

Weights were glassed in the buttstock. Final weight of the rifle is 17 pounds 9 ounces. (unloaded)

Monoblock has been blended into the barrels.

New sights have been installed and filed to hit at point of aim.

Final polishing was begun. (and has continued for 3 days)


Looks like all that remains to completion is:

Custom installation of the Sling Eyes. (vintage British sling-eyes were purchased from South Africa)

Completion of Final Polishing.

Final Bluing & Inspection.

I can hardly wait. - Pictures to follow.

quote:

Originally posted by buckstix:
....(In essence THIS lesser load IS the regulation load, not the standard "full" power load.)

Well, I guess we'll see about that AFTER I fire some full loads and see how they group. Then again, had I not shared my experiment here, we wouldn't know which came first, low velocity, or high velocity regulation.....

I appreciate that you did explain which load is being used for regulation, and that an alternate load is an experiment. If that wasn't shared, and some result was shown that appears unflattering, chances are it would be attributed to the builder. Getting close, congrats.

Hello craigd.

Thanks for the reply.

quote:

Originally posted by craigd:

I appreciate that you did explain which load is being used for regulation, and that an alternate load is an experiment. If that wasn't shared, and some result was shown that appears unflattering, chances are it would be attributed to the builder. Getting close, congrats.

It cannot be overstated, Aaron Litttle's Custom work to date has been absolutely remarkable. He has accomplished everything I asked for, and more.

After my 700NE is finished, I look forward to having Aaron complete several other projects on my bucket list; both Double Rifles, and Big Bore bolt guns.

Hello all,

Here's the latest update from Aaron.

Its these kinds of details that separate the gunsmiths, from the "Master Gunsmiths".

I'm thinking that all that remains is; fitting the extractor, more polishing, and then Slow Rust Bluing.

That is nice work.

By the way Trader Keith sells a very nice leather sling made for those old-time type of sling eyes. I have one on my Jeffery.

Keep those updates coming! Thanks for the pic.

Hello PSmith,

Hello mt Al,

Thanks for the reply.

Latest update from Aaron indicates; one more day of polishing, and then a week of Slow Rust Blue.

With a little luck, I'll have the rifle in my hands by next week Friday.

Oh my, that's funny ... that would be April Fool's Day.

What is funny, Aaron weighs maybe 150 sopping wet

In high school. Married and fat now.

Hello All,

Well, it looks like we're in the home stretch now.

About 10 days ago Aaron started the final slow rust bluing of the barrels. Key word there is "slow".

Now, the rust bluing has been wrapped up with final polishing (as needed) to be completed this weekend. And then, the final fitting of the extractor is all that remains to be done.

It looks like the finished rifle could be on its way back to Wisconsin as early as Monday or Tuesday of next week.

I've got my fingers crossed that it makes it here in time for our annual Gun Club meeting on Wednesday April 6th. There I'd be showing-off the completed rifle to over 150 club members, most of whom have been following the progress reports of this build here on my posts.

While waiting these final days, I ordered a custom cartridge saddle that will be strapped to the stock. It will hold six, 700NE cartridges and will add another 2 pounds 2 ounces to the rifle's weight.

The added weight will reduce the rifle's felt recoil by about 17 pounds.

buckstix,

Thanks for sharing. I have been enjoying it greatly.

"Illegitimi non carborundum."

I could use a custom "cartridge saddle" on my 12 Gauge From Hell 3.85"
and another on my 20 Gauge From Purgatory 3.5" (if Rusty ever gets it finished).

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
buckstix,

"Illegitimi non carborundum."

Thank you! That says it all!

buckstix,

While biding my time until next update, some idle comments:
That cartridge saddle is shades of "Crossfire Trail."
It's like the one Rafe Covington (Tom Selleck)
had on his Winchester 1876 Centennial Model full-stock carbine chambered in 45-60 Winchester.
BP cartridge factory loaded with 300-grainer at 1315 fps.
That movie had no bloopers on guns, thank you Louis L'Amour and movie gun consultants.





Who makes that high-class cartridge saddle of yours? How does one order one?
Of course I could make one myself, given all the leatherwork skills I learned in prison.

Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
Pet Wildcat Certifying Authority
NRA Life Benefactor and Beneficiary
https://home.nra.org/

Hello RIP,

Thanks for the reply.

I get these from Ross Leather in Florida. They are made in South Africa. Cost around $100.

Here is a black leather one I added to my Custom Ruger No.1 in 600 JDJ Caliber. I think I like the brown leather better.

Ah, Ross.
I have several of their holsters and belts, S&W, Glock, and cowboy stuff, and I wear a Ross belt about every day.
The local emporium carries a lot of Ross gear, but not everything. I have not ordered direct from them before. Thanks for the idea.

http://www.rossleather.com/m59...stock-wrap-p-81.html

Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
Pet Wildcat Certifying Authority
NRA Life Benefactor and Beneficiary
https://home.nra.org/

Hello All,

Well, the 700 NE finally arrived home on 4/5/16. Total build time was just over 5 months. That's remarkable! But I think Aaron went above and beyond as a personal favor to me. I expect a build time of 6 - 9 months is more realistic for such a project.

Finished weight with the 28" barrels is at 18 pounds 1-1/2 ouces and 18 pounds 10 ounces loaded.

When loaded, balance point loaded is "exactly" centered on the hinge.

Fit and Finish are amazing, and I expect its Aaron's attention to detail that defines him as a Master Gunsmith. My pictures don't do it justice. Hopefully, tomorrow I'll get some nice weather so I can shoot it.

Compare these pictures with the ones on the first page; before - during - and now after.

Absolutely gorgeous!!! Can't wait to hear how your "reverse regulation" works out. Hold 'er steady with that big load! After all, we wouldn't want to blame Aaron on a poor group! I'm rootin' for ya!!

Damn nice!

Aaron, do you accept visitors to your shop? Not to chit chat and distract, but just to observe a master at work.

Love it, Buckstix. Those barrels are thick. Plenty of weight to dampen most recoil. I just bought a 16 bore McCrirck Damascus nitro reproved for Aaron to make a 450-400 3 1/4 NFB. Now that your project is done hopefully I'll be right behind. Going to have 28 bore inserts in the 16 bore barrels.

You plan on using this in Africa?

Buckstix. DAY-UM that's nice! Can't wait for range pics and report on recoil, etc.

Really appreciate you sharing this whole project. Making brass and seeing Aaron's work has been an education.

Very cool!!

Buckstix,

That is a gorgeous rifle. Thank you for posting all the pictures of it in the making. I also thoroughly enjoyed the making of the brass.

As for lack of Penetration that some have suggested-Call Dan at Cutting Edge Bullets and have them make some proper BBW#13 solids and corresponding Raptors. Chances are you will NEVER recover one. Unless there is a D11 Caterpillar behind the elephant.

Keep us posted and enjoy your rifle!

Andy B

quote:

Originally posted by quartermain:
Absolutely gorgeous!!! Can't wait to hear how your "reverse regulation" works out. Hold 'er steady with that big load! After all, we wouldn't want to blame Aaron on a poor group! I'm rootin' for ya!!

Ditto.

Hello All,

Thanks for the support and reply.

I got out to the range today. It was COLD - temp was right at 34 degrees with sleet.

However, I managed to shoot 3 targets and get some data. Needless to say; I'm pleased with Aaron's regulation. I think you'll agree.

Next time out I'll start trying some higher velocity loads. But I have to be careful in this COLD weather so I don't BREAK.

That is about as good as it gets. A bespoke Holland & Holland could not do better.


Full house loads will be very interesting for the shooter, and audience, should the shooter dare.

Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
Pet Wildcat Certifying Authority
NRA Life Benefactor and Beneficiary
https://home.nra.org/

I like what I see right there. No doubt Aaron did get the regulation to as good as can be.
At 1600-1700 fps, rights and lefts will be right on top of each other I would think and 1000grs at that speed is something... Full 2000fps loads will still render a good group but what punishment!
Looking forward to the results.

This thread got me thinking, there are two Spanish 10 bores, both for $500, at Gunsport in Boulder but one has a broken stock...