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quote:
Originally posted by ALF:
Hmmmmm !



It did not and I will state without apology will not meet the original claimed factory velocities with certain powders



However, according to a report in The American Rifleman magazine after the 458 was introduced in 1956 they had the HP White ballistics lab verify the accuracy of Winchester's published velocity and it met the original 2150 for with whatever powder they were using at the time. And with the powders of today it can best that by another 100 fps. Which is more than Jack Lott stated he wanted.


Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship
Phil Shoemaker
Alaska Master guide
CFII
NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com
 
Posts: 3993 | Location: Bristol Bay | Registered: 24 April 2004Reply With Quote
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We see That in our Tests here

past week one rifle went to 2344 fps at 78 grains of aa2230

26 inch barrel

this was a surprise to us

but what was even more unexpected not much pressure show on the primers

I will set up a photo hosting account and add photos of the primers in fired cases from that test let folks take a look see

the load was compressed and we crimped it with a lee factory crimp die so a separate step in the loading

the primers were federal 215


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
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thank you --Hannay--

for the brilliant video on now to post images

made it simple for this simple mind

so

case w black mark on right fired in remington 798 26 inch barrel grain wt on tray in black marker

red marked cases fired in remington 700 21 1/2 inch barrel on left

70 gr powder aa 2230

to 78 gn in one grain increments





data collected 06 06 2017

75 degree day

chronograph ---lab radar--

458 win mag

rifle
zastava remington 798
26 inch barrel

aa2230 powder 500
grain solid hornady DGS
brass new winchester

70 gn 2142-- 2139
71 gn 2179--2165
72 gn 2188---2183
73 gn 2217---2205
74 gn 2230---2237
75 gn 2261---2264---2255---2264
76 gn 2279---2281
77 gn 2304---2307
78 gn 2328---2344

no excessive pressure at max powder
but some what flat primer
heavy recoil

compressed loads above 73 grains

215 federal primer all lit wel

DATA 06-06 2017
remington 700 21 1/2 inch barrel
[ruger #1 take off]
458 win mag -- custom culling rifle w 10 round bottom clip
trigicon reflex sight

10.3 # rifle

bullet 500 gn hornady solid dxs

powder aa 2230
brass new winchester
federal 215 primer
lab radar
temp 78 degrees

70 gn 2104---2098
71 gn 2120-- 2112
72 gn 2132---2139
73 gn 2152---2145
74 gn 2181---2180
75 gn ----------
76 gn 2229---2222
77 gn 2250---2237
78 gn -----------
primers a bit flat at 74


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
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Thanks for the addition to the thread there Alf. tu2

quote:
Originally posted by ALF:
Phil:
Please read what I wrote ! "will not meet the original claimed factory velocities with CERTAIN powders ...


That could be said about any cartridge.
horse

I think we all get your point Alf.
Indeed bad that South Africa had such a limited powder selection,
or whatever went wrong back then,
especially for those injured or killed because of it.

But I was getting the 500-grain Hornady RNSP past MV of 2150 fps from 24" barrels back in the 1980s, using IMR-3031.

If I could have gotten a .458/400-grain spitzer over 2400 fps MV back then with the IMR-4198 trials,
without the pierced primers,
I might have become a one-rifle guy.

Nowadays, it can be done easily,
three Accurate powders do that, just for starters, 24" barrel of 1:14" twist:

Accurate 2015, 76.0 grains >>> 2,468 FPS
Barnes 400-grain SSSP
Winchester case
F-215 primer
COL 3.140" (compressed)
57,584 PSI

Accurate 2230, 80.0 grains >>> 2,457 FPS
Barnes 400-grain SSSP
Winchester case
F-215 primer
COL 3.140" (compressed)
53,690 PSI

Accurate 2460, 80.0 grains >>> 2,452 FPS
Barnes 400-grain SSSP
Winchester case
F-215 primer
COL 3.140" (compressed)
52,746 PSI

The old Barnes Original SSSP .458/400-grainer is what I tried.
It would have been a nice cow moose and varmint bullet.

There may be better .458/400-grain bullets nowadays too.
With the generous throat of the .458 WinMag,
a longer COL (3.340" only, not 3.140"!) and maybe no compression could be possible with a +2400 fps 400-grainer.
Sight it 3" high at 100 yards to point and shoot to 200-yards.
Excellent all-purpose rifle nowadays, the .458 WinMag. tu2

Rip
.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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RIP; I wouldn't bet on that 400 gr Barnes Original. I once almost totally blew a small Sitka Blacktail deer. In half with a 400 gr Barnes Original pushed by 80 gr8 of AA2230 and a Fed 215, iirc it was a Fed 215. @ maybe 100 feet distance. That load choreographed 2380 fps from my rifle in 40° F temps. I later found out the bullets had the 25 thousandths jacket instead of the 49 thousandth jackets the guy told me they were. Lying so and so . the 32 k jackets might hold up, but??????


Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle."
 
Posts: 1934 | Location: Eastern Central Alaska | Registered: 15 July 2014Reply With Quote
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I don't see the high pressures in any of that last data quotes that folks seem to think is dangerous in the African sun. Their modern plains game rifle is packing more pressure than that. Yes?
It's been an educating and interesting thread.


"The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights."
~George Washington - 1789
 
Posts: 2099 | Location: Where God breathes life into the Amber Waves of Grain and owns the cattle on a thousand hills. | Registered: 20 August 2002Reply With Quote
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IME, Heart-lung shots seldom produce instant kills on large-tough animals with any caliber. Expecting an instant kill from a chest shot could get a fellow killed.


velocity is like a new car, always losing value.
BC is like diamonds, holding value forever.
 
Posts: 1650 | Location: , texas | Registered: 01 August 2008Reply With Quote
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I forget the name of the crik that is just north of Black Rapids Lodge. The old lodge. But, it's not really wide. About 30 '/10 meters wide. If Mr Watts was about in the middle of it, that would give him maybe half that by the time the bear cleared the brush on the crik bank. At that range. With what in those days was a great big cutting edge rifle. A chest shot is a logical shot. The fact that he walked away and continued his trip proves he got a good shot in. And reveals why he had an elemental instinct to make a substantially bigger cartridge !
( sorry for the derail ) Next time I go to Delta I'll get the name of that crik.

P.S. the Black Rapids area is some pretty great country!! I imagine in the 30s it was really wild!


Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle."
 
Posts: 1934 | Location: Eastern Central Alaska | Registered: 15 July 2014Reply With Quote
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few shot on a montana action custom
22 inch barrel

chronograph lab radar

458 win mag
500 grain solid
aa 2230 powder
fed 215 primer
new winchester brass



74 gn 2231
75 gn -----
76 gn 2270
77 gn 2285---2280
78 gn 2310---

old store bought hornady ammo
500 gn solid
published velocity 2260

22 inch montana
2180 fps
21 1/2 inch custom remington 700
2110
smithson custom 98 mauser 22 1/2 inch barrel
2126

the older heavy mag ammo not the new superformance stuff


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
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stradling,

I tried some of the old Hornady Heavy Magnum stuff and found it usually about 100 or more fps shy of what they claimed, not bad.
Superformance stuff is faster stuff, eh?

I think you have made quite a case for the .458 WinMag.
It's a winner. tu2
I am thinking about selling all my rifles except .22RF and .458 WinMag. Wink

Rip
.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
RIP; I wouldn't bet on that 400 gr Barnes Original. I once almost totally blew a small Sitka Blacktail deer in half with a 400 gr Barnes Original pushed by 80 gr of AA2230 and a Fed 215, iirc it was a Fed 215. @ maybe 100 feet distance. That load choreographed 2380 fps from my rifle in 40° F temps.

What barrel length?

I later found out the bullets had the 25 thousandths jacket instead of the 49 thousandth jackets the guy told me they were.

Yep, .049" jacket would have wasted less meat.

Lying so and so . the 32 k jackets might hold up, but??????

But the .049" would be better for moose and deer and the odd bear in a pinch.




There are some better choices nowadays for that all-around .458 WinMag bullet, eh?

My pick is the GS Custom .458/400-grain HV:



holycow What a sexy bullet!



http://www.gsgroup.co.za/458400HV095.html

Rip
.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
I forget the name of the crik that is just north of Black Rapids Lodge. The old lodge. But, it's not really wide. About 30 '/10 meters wide. If Mr Watts was about in the middle of it, that would give him maybe half that by the time the bear cleared the brush on the crik bank. At that range. With what in those days was a great big cutting edge rifle. A chest shot is a logical shot. The fact that he walked away and continued his trip proves he got a good shot in. And reveals why he had an elemental instinct to make a substantially bigger cartridge !
( sorry for the derail ) Next time I go to Delta I'll get the name of that crik.

P.S. the Black Rapids area is some pretty great country!! I imagine in the 30s it was really wild!


CTF,

I hope you can help us pin down the location of that crick.
It is surely the birthplace of the .458 WinMag,
via the gleam in James Watts eye as he surveyed that dead grizzly.
Even if Winchester did give him short shrift, pun intended,
it did not turn out so badly after all that has been said and done.

I am getting out my Alaska Atlas & Gazetteer ... see topo map, page 106 ...
and an old copy of The Milepost to search the section on the Richardson Highway.

Rip
.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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I think it's One Mile Crik.


Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle."
 
Posts: 1934 | Location: Eastern Central Alaska | Registered: 15 July 2014Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
quote:
Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
RIP; I wouldn't bet on that 400 gr Barnes Original. I once almost totally blew a small Sitka Blacktail deer in half with a 400 gr Barnes Original pushed by 80 gr of AA2230 and a Fed 215, iirc it was a Fed 215. @ maybe 100 feet distance. That load choreographed 2380 fps from my rifle in 40° F temps.

What barrel length?

I later found out the bullets had the 25 thousandths jacket instead of the 49 thousandth jackets the guy told me they were.

Yep, .049" jacket would have wasted less meat.

Lying so and so . the 32 k jackets might hold up, but??????

But the .049" would be better for moose and deer and the odd bear in a pinch.




There are some better choices nowadays for that all-around .458 WinMag bullet, eh?

My pick is the GS Custom .458/400-grain HV:



holycow What a sexy bullet!



http://www.gsgroup.co.za/458400HV095.html

Rip
.



19" ,front of the receiver ring to the muzzle, inside the muzzle brake.
Yes, that GSC 400 grain HV looks perfect. I fail to see how a cape buffalo would be bullet proof to that bullet at 2400ish fps.
Barnes did about the stupidest thing by discontinuing the 400 gr X bullet. Not that I think it's better than the HV. Just another option.


Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle."
 
Posts: 1934 | Location: Eastern Central Alaska | Registered: 15 July 2014Reply With Quote
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quote:
quote:

My pick is the GS Custom .458/400-grain HV:




http://www.gsgroup.co.za/458400HV095.html



19" ,front of the receiver ring to the muzzle, inside the muzzle brake.
Yes, that GSC 400 grain HV looks perfect. I fail to see how a cape buffalo would be bullet proof to that bullet at 2400ish fps.
Barnes did about the stupidest thing by discontinuing the 400 gr X bullet. Not that I think it's better than the HV. Just another option.


Concur.

This thread is something like the 308 Win vs 30-06 vs 300WM, raised two octaves.

For perspective, we can consider the 338's and expanding them to .458". The 338 WinMag case capacity is adequate for .338", and we have the Weatherby-size and the Lapua (Rigby-esque) available for souping things up. When raised to .458" that turns into the 458WinMag, the Lott, and the 450Rigby/Dakota. But at that wider diameter, bullets are heavier all around and may need more engine room than at .338 to be fully adequate.

Just like the 308Win is an excellent option for most things when lighter, shorter bullets are used, and the 308 can get close to the 30-06 with those lighter bullets, so it is with the 458WinMag.

The 400 grain GSCustom in the WinMag would be just about right for a general walk-about cartridge. Yes, it should do 2400fps.

The 458WinMag is the "308" of the 458 line. For plains game the 315grain GSC at about 2700fps might be a better all-purpose load, but the 400 grainer is what I would load in order to include buffalo on the diet.


+-+-+-+-+-+-+

"A well-rounded hunting battery might include:
500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" --
Conserving creation, hunting the harvest.
 
Posts: 4247 | Registered: 10 June 2009Reply With Quote
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I think of it more like the 35 Whelan of the 358 carts With the Norma Magnum being the Lott/Watts and the STA being the Whby/Rigby .
Whenever possible I try to Not allow the 30 caliber into my thinking process.
But I can't find fault with your analogy.
The 308 does its job with little fuss or bother. And it kills as well as the faster 308s within certain range restrictions.
The single greatest attribute of the 308 being its amazingly long throat and barrel life. Combined with good inherent accuracy.
And it excels at being a good carbine round.


Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle."
 
Posts: 1934 | Location: Eastern Central Alaska | Registered: 15 July 2014Reply With Quote
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posted Jul 28, 6:26 PM Hide Post
stradling,

I tried some of the old Hornady Heavy Magnum stuff and found it usually about 100 or more fps shy of what they claimed, not bad.
Superformance stuff is faster stuff, eh?

I think you have made quite a case for the .458 WinMag.
It's a winner.
I am thinking about selling all my rifles except .22RF and .458 WinMag.

Rip



Rip don't really need that 22 rifle

what I do is shoot 66 gn win 760 behind a 400 gn copper lead 45-70 bullet which gives me 1785 fps
in my 10.5 pound 22 inch barrel montana left hand squirrel gun

no recoil none yesterday 2 bullets touching at 50 yard target

hunting jackrabbits in a light misting rain

is hard to find much for the pot after a center mass hit which makes a positive point for the 22 but

when I get some more money I want to buy and try the new superformance stuff on the lab radar thanks for the info


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
CTF,

I hope you can help us pin down the location of that crick.
It is surely the birthplace of the .458 Win Mag,
via the gleam in James Watts eye as he surveyed that dead grizzly.
Even if Winchester did give him short shrift, pun intended,
it did not turn out so badly after all that has been said and done.



cold trigger finger
If you take up a heading of 108 degrees on your land compass and stear true for 8,104 miles you will arrive in nairobi west africa

for people that like to know that kind of stuff

kinda makes me thing the african king rifle might just be not true after all bet it's more of an alaskan sourdough roughneck gun if we dig around a bit get back to the root of this thing

we need the lon lat of that bear kill

I will clip out a photo of the encounter site and post the google earth photo here w location map

it is a critical part of the data set for this thread

no matter the 458 watts you prefer and shoot be it the win mag lott or not

or anyone else that knows can find out or will help here

I think the guy that authored that story hides out somewhere in alaska
just maybe someone can run him down and interrogate his memory
squeeze him a bit
get something on him and make him tell
the rest of us where he hunts the big browns


the center of the universe


for the first all round hunting rifle of africa alaska or anywhere else




The Rapids Roadhouse, variously known as Black Rapids Roadhouse or Rapids Hunting Lodge, opened at least by 1904 to serve travelers on the new Valdez-Fairbanks Trail. Of more than thirty roadhouses that operated along the route between 1902 and 1923, Rapids Roadhouse is one of the few that survive. Rapids Roadhouse continued to operate until 1993, although its peak years had been during the first decades of the 20th century. Because of this, period of significance ended in 1923


The Black Rapids Roadhouse, also known as the Rapids Roadhouse and the Rapids Hunting Lodge, is a historic Alaskan structure along the Richardson Highway in east-central Alaska. It was built in 1902.[2][3][4][5] Construction of the Alaska Railroad led to a decline in the 1920s, but the original roadhouse continued to operate until 1993. A new, modern lodge was built near the roadhouse in 2001 and the original building is preserved as a historical curiosity and tourist attraction.

The original roadhouse was listed on the National Register of Historical Places in 2001.[2]





Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
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I see you guys are going to make me go hiking Confused. coffee
I'll bring The Spruce King and my Ruger Bisley Blackhawk SS Convertible with the Colt cylinder in it and go poke around. See if I can jump a bear there and dump it with a chest shot. I'll check the regs, but I tink unit 20 is open, no resident tag required. Most of this area is no closed season on grizzly. I have a Lot greater confidence in dumping a bear with a chest shot from the Spruce King( my 458 Winchester Mag's name.) even got it stamped on the barrel. Than I do of finding a grizzly to shoot. We keep the bears pretty well thinned out around here.


Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle."
 
Posts: 1934 | Location: Eastern Central Alaska | Registered: 15 July 2014Reply With Quote
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big daddy not so fast

spruce king I kinda like that too

who made watts his first one
where was the work done
who cut the reamer
which one was first

someone out there knows this stuff

starting with a good idea in 1938


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
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Well, I was a Spruce King when I had it built. And when your on a fish crik in Southeast on The A B C's. With big Sitka Spruce along the banks, it just Fits. Visibility is very limited to non existent. Speaking of the 450 Watts. That is where it started making a great name for itself. One of the places anyway. In Ben Forbes and Glenn Morgan's hands. Backing up clients. I've held both rifles.


Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle."
 
Posts: 1934 | Location: Eastern Central Alaska | Registered: 15 July 2014Reply With Quote
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stradling and Cold Trigger Finger,

A great thread just got even greater. tu2

From THE MILEPOST:
The Richardson Highway (Alaska Route 4) extends 368 miles from Valdez to Fairbanks. It was Alaska's first road, known to gold seekers in 1898 as the Valdez to Eagle trail ... The Richardson Highway was hard-surfaced in 1957."

"Mileposts on the Richardson Highway were erected before the 1964 Good Friday earthquake and therefore begin 4 miles from present-day downtown Valdez near the old Valdez townsite (destroyed during the earthquake)."

Well, that accounts for the mileage discrepancy in the original Watts narrative reported in the Cal Pappas book,
an excellent piece of history. archer

More from THE MILEPOST:
227.4 miles North of Valdez and 136.6 miles south of Fairbanks:
'Ruins of old Black Rapids Lodge, once the "farthest north of the old-time Richardson trail hostelries." '

I will continue to re-read the Cal Pappas book, and dig up some more specifics on the first 450 Watts rifle.
Author Cal Pappas is a member here, so maybe he will add to this,
before he has to sue me for copyright infringement.
Anyone interested in this subject ought to buy the book from Cal, if not sold out.

I have an autographed, spiral bound, 159-page, "Second Printing February 1997," copy
that I bought at Great Northern Guns in Anchorage, AK for $35.00. It's priceless now. tu2

If sold out, it needs to be re-printed for future sales that will generated by this thread.
May I suggest leather binding and gilt-edged finest vellum and other papers in large format? Wink
This special edition ought to include new illustrations, such as the satellite photos above,
and fine art paintings recreating moments such as the bear charge at One Mile Creek. Cool

One planet, one rifle, the .458 Winchester-Watts Short Magnum. tu2

BTW, IIRC, Watts was corresponding with the likes of Ackley, Buhmiller, Barnes
and/or others as he developed his 450 Watts,
he had to get his barrel, reamer and dies somewhere,
and he just loved telling everybody about his new baby.
I gotta go refresh myself on the details by reference to Pappas.

Rip
.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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If Cal has them in print again , I sure do want a copy.
Incidentally, Ben Forbes got a Model 70 in 4t8 Winchester after they came out. He told me it was perfect for dumping big brown bear. I think he liked having a spare Stoping rifle with him on the boat. Most all the guys that assistant guided under him packed 458s also. He had a very dim view on anything smaller than a 375 as a backup rifle.


Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle."
 
Posts: 1934 | Location: Eastern Central Alaska | Registered: 15 July 2014Reply With Quote
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watts and anderson in 1950

need the rest of that story

a spec of blood

on the spor-- back --to where Watts killed the bear

THIS IS THE OLD MAG HORNADY BULLET W THE BRASS TIP

500 GN ADVERTISED VELOCITY 2260



WE SECTIONED THE NEW HORNADY SOLID FOLKS CAN LOOK AT THE JACKET

LOOKS QUITE COMPETENT [THICK]



THIS IS WHAT 73 GN OF AA 2230 POWDER LOOKS LIKE IN THE CASE THIS IS RIGHT AT 100 % CASE CAPACITY

WE LOADED UP 50 ROUNDS OF 500 GRAIN WILL SHOOT FOR VELOCITY AND AT 140 DEGREES IN A HOT GUN THIS WEEK
REPORTING VELOCITY AND PRESSURE

AND OR ANY OTHER ISSUES ON SEVERAL RIFLES



Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
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BULLETS

Copper clad steel-jacketed

some folks do not appreciate that there is steel in that bullets skin lead in the core


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
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I have enjoyed this thread from the start. Probably because I'm a 458 WM fan but haven't killed anything but paper with the gun.

Looking forward to your test this week.

Eric


NRA Benefactor
TSRA Life
DRSS
Brno ZP-149 45-120 NE

 
Posts: 937 | Location: Corpus Christi, Texas | Registered: 09 June 2009Reply With Quote
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stradling,

Keep up the good work. popcorn

@ the copied below, some responses in
red:
quote:
Originally posted by stradling:

who made watts his first one

Yes, Harvey B. Anderson, Sr., gunsmith, of Yakima, WA.

In 1945, having further impaired his hearing from testing B-29 tail guns
(50 BMG and 20mm cannon) at the Boeing plant in Wichita, Kansas,
James and wife did a side trip to Alaska, then pitched up in Yakima, Washington for a change of pace.
James H. Watts started teaching history and coaching football, wrestling, and track
at the Yakima high school in September 1945.
The captain of the football team was Harvey B. Anderson, Jr.,
who introduced James to his gunsmith father.
James and his wife, Bea, rented an apartment in the Anderson home.
The Anderson gunsmith shop was in the basement of that house, in 1945.

James Watts dabbled in gunsmithing with the tutelage of Anderson.
Anderson already had a patent on a thumb safety, side safety, for bolt actions.
Watts said of royalty payments for that,
"Remington pays royalties, Ruger, the 99 Savage, the Germans on their Mausers,
the Swedes and the Finns. Anderson had a patent so tight that they all had to pay to use it.
Only Winchester did not use it." (Pappas, p.51)
Watts also said he collaborated with Anderson on a scope cover design,
but turned it all over to Anderson who developed it into the Storm King and Storm Queen line,
still used. Eeker


where was the work done


In the Anderson Gun Shop, 1203 Broadway, Yakima, WA.

Watts says he wrote to Winchester about 1945 (right after the end of WWII)
asking them about bringing out a .375 H&H blown out and necked up to .458.
He was rebuffed, but at least he got a letter from them.
Watts ended up getting back to work late for the school year of September 1946
due to another 400-mile hike in the Northwest Territories.
So he had to take an unpaid year off from teaching to knock around
with relatives in Kansas and Montana and odd jobs, but returned to Yakima in 1947
to resume teaching, and renting same apartment in the Anderson home.
He says he wrote Winchester again in 1947, but got no reply at all that time.

On page 68 of Pappas: "We turned out the first .450 Magnum in 1949. Anderson made his own sizing die. I'm still using it." That was as of the 1994-95 interviews the book is based on.

On page 83, there is a reproduction page of an article by Elwyn A. Nellis, journal unspecified, claiming "Harvey Anderson of Yakima, Washington, built the first .450 Watts Magnum in 1948. The gun is named after an Alaskan hunter who ordered it after close call with bear."



who cut the reamer

"Harvey Anderson made a rough reamer for it
and we got the barrel from Ackley." So said Watts, (Pappas, p. 68)
and it was on an FN Mauser, standard action, with side safety common on the commercial FN Mausers,
opened up to .375 H&H length by Anderson.
Anderson broke a finger shooting it and then cut off the back of the trigger guard,
reversed it and welded it back in place so the rear of the trigger guard was concave
versus the usual convexity. Picture of the original rifle is in the book.
Watts started off with a Lyman 48 peep but ended up with a Weaver 1X scope.
The rifle was born at 8 lbs. 6 oz. empty.
Watts added a pound of lead to forearm and butt, and best recoil pad he could find.
Watts made the stock for the rifle himself,
not his first stock-carving, and he still had that rifle in 1994-1995.


which one was first

Watts' rifle by Anderson: 1949 at latest.
The second one might have been for Fred Ness,
who wrote about it for the NRA, AMERICAN RIFLEMAN, about 1951.
Jack O'Connor wrote about it after Ness.
Prior to those two authors, Ralph Hammer praised the .450 Watts Magnum in "a national hunting magazine."
(Pappas, p.69)



someone out there knows this stuff

Cal Pappas.

starting with a good idea in 1938

Yep! That 1938 idea resulted in the .458 Winchester-Watts Short Magnum of 1956.
Watts said of Winchester: "I gave them a release so they could produce it. It is Winchester's .458 that was originally my .450 Watts Short" (Pappas, p. 70).
tu2



Watts originated these according to the book:

.450x2" aka the .458x2-inch American
... Not by Frank C. Barnes author of COTW, he should have known better!
.450x2-1/4"
.450x2-1/2" aka the .450 Watts Short aka the .458 Winchester Magnum
... Stolen by Winchester, and they certainly did know better!
.450x2.85" aka the .450 Watts Magnum (Copyright 1950 by Harvey B. Anderson!)
... also mooched by Jack Lott!

.416 Watts Short aka the .416 Watts-Taylor aka the .416 Chatfield-Taylor
... Watts gave some samples to Jack O'Connor who gave some samples to Robert Chatfield-Taylor
who had been working with another .40-cal bullet diameter on the same case,
but then switched to .416 cal. when he found out that Anderson was getting Kynoch .416 bullets for Watts, available to be shipped over from England.
Those bullets meant for the .416 Rigby were good for 2350-2400 fps,
no problems with fragile .416/400-410grainers using those!

.450 Watts Rimmed (Copyright 1952 by James H. Watts) aka the .450 Alaskan
... as popularized by Harold Johnson!

.40-.348 Watts Improved a .411/.348 Winchester wildcat (circa 1951-1952, reamer made by Bill Fuller)
... that got Cal Pappas in contact with James Watts, at the Anchorage Gun Show in 1994.

' "James Watts, 82, died in his sleep Dec. 19, 1995 at his Anchorage home ..." '(Pappas, p. 158).

R.I.P. James Watts

Rip
.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
stradling,

Keep up the good work. popcorn

@ the copied below, some responses in
red:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by stradling:

.416 Watts Short aka the .416 Watts-Taylor aka the .416 Chatfield-Taylor
... Watts gave some samples to Jack O'Connor who gave some samples to Robert Chatfield-Taylor
who had been working with another .40-cal bullet diameter on the same case,
but then switched to .416 cal. when he found out that Anderson was getting Kynoch .416 bullets for Watts, available to be shipped over from England.
Those bullets meant for the .416 Rigby were good for 2350-2400 fps,
no problems with fragile .416/400-410grainers using those!

R.I.P. James Watts

Rip
.


I hadn't heard this before. I'm a fan of and own a .416 "Taylor" as well. It looks as though Mr Watts had a bigger influence on my shooting life than I knew. If Cal ever decides to publish his book again I'll definitely get one. Copies of the original book are hard to find. Should you find one they are often listed for several hundred dollars.

Eric


NRA Benefactor
TSRA Life
DRSS
Brno ZP-149 45-120 NE

 
Posts: 937 | Location: Corpus Christi, Texas | Registered: 09 June 2009Reply With Quote
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Both Forbes and Morgan's 450 Watts are built on the 17 Enfield action.


Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle."
 
Posts: 1934 | Location: Eastern Central Alaska | Registered: 15 July 2014Reply With Quote
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C-T-F aka [S_K]

I would give my left na eye tooth for either one of those p 17 s as I have a small collection of stuff build on the p 17 for hunting folks a few years back

wonder what happened to em where they are now


we are testing only one powder in this run, to demonstrate to us, for us, that a rifle with a 22 inch tube can obtain velocities in the range of 2150 launching 500 grain hornady softs and solids

and that the impact point will be consistent between the two bullets

we are preferential to a load that is not compressed. yields velocity north of 2100 with 500 grain hunting bullets. can take hot sun and or a hot barrel. and not stick the bolt

easy to load. so no drop tube. and or extra crimp issues effort


while discovering issues that arise over 7 or 8 rifles typically found in the 458 win mag inventory

3 off the shelf so-- win 70 --rem 798-- cz

Then a rebarreled montana action, custom 98 action, custom rem 700 action, finaly the custom weatherby action


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
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I'm getting the same results from a 22" barrel, A2230, and 500 gr Hornadys ~ 2,150 with 72.5 grs. Accuracy is crap out of my 458.

I like 450 gr Northforks at 2,225 fps much better.


"Evil is powerless if the good are unafraid" -- Ronald Reagan

"Ignorance of The People gives strength to totalitarians."

Want to make just about anything work better? Keep the government as far away from it as possible, then step back and behold the wonderment and goodness.
 
Posts: 2722 | Location: Austin, Texas | Registered: 05 April 2006Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
Both Forbes and Morgan's 450 Watts are built on the 17 Enfield action.


Watts said that Harvey Anderson got covered up with work after Jack O'Connor wrote about the .450 Watts Magnum.

The Anderson Gun Shop, about 1950:

"We are prepared to make up rifles for the .450 Watts Mag. on Enfield or other suitable actions like the model 70 or Magnum Mausers. We can also furnish dies that will fit the Hollywood, Universal or Pacific reloading tools. Loaded shells can be furnished on request as well as bullets.

"Your action altered to feed the .450 cartridge, barrel installed and assembly blued $65. Sights extra. Stocks $35. up.
Milling off ears, straightening the floor plate or other alterations like speed lock or altering shape of bolt handle to get it away from front finger, are extra. Prices on request." (Pappas, p.67)

Anderson also claimed some wild ballistics in that blurb, supposedly chronographed with the most modern equipment of the time:

400-grain Barnes @ 2943 fps Eeker
500-grain Barnes @ 2563 fps Eeker

Rip
.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Halibut Cheeks;; my goodness . that's an added whole bunch of velocity. Wow.

I know one of those rifles made it to Texas. A member here got it. I tink it was Glenn Morgan's after he slipped his mortal coil. Glen did manage to blow one trophy bears head in half with it as it was jumping on him. He told me it squared 9'2" . Client had wounded it with something like a 3hunnert or something small like that . Maybe my hated cartridge. Course it went down but bounced right up and disappeared in the brush. Glen knew it had what would eventually be a fatal wound. But would probably be a long and drawn out affair. So he had the client stay behind him and went after it. He saw the bear as it started its jump about 10' away. He was ready but visibility was about nil. The client had to help him get out from under the bear. He was kinda stove up. But got the hide and head off it and got everything to the beach.


Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle."
 
Posts: 1934 | Location: Eastern Central Alaska | Registered: 15 July 2014Reply With Quote
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preliminary results of shooting 73 grains of aa 2230

no pressure or bolt stick issues across 3 rifles

25 fps increase in velocity cold to hot

case loaded to 100% volume no compressed powder

with a 50 degree change in temperature of loaded ammunition

cool 85 deg f
hot 135 deg f [to hot to hold ]

not going to blow your gun up or stick the bolt with this powder with sun heated bullets

nominal velocity 2180 fps 500 gn hornady softs

so much for that urban legend

we will run the test one more time


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
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Stradling. Sounds very good ! Plenty of velocity to get the work done!
I don't know What Ray was talking about when he said the 458 wasn't efficient. I don't know of another round that can push a 500 gr bullet at that velocity with that amount of powder.
Not disparanging Ray, just tink he was incorrect. For up here, a 500 gr bullet is unnecessary. Even on monster brown bear. A good tough 300, 350 or 400 gr8 works amazing. Not saying the 500 gr8 doesn't kill well. It does. No reason to take that kind of recoil tho.


Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle."
 
Posts: 1934 | Location: Eastern Central Alaska | Registered: 15 July 2014Reply With Quote
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Classic case of not enough case.

Well and truly fixed by the Ackley and Lott.

I never looked back after that.


Mike

Edited on advice of counsel.
 
Posts: 11566 | Location: New England | Registered: 06 June 2003Reply With Quote
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Picture of 416Tanzan
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Classic case of not enough case.

Well and truly fixed by the Ackley and Lott.

I never looked back after that.


I appreciate the logic.
Would we say the same about the 308?


+-+-+-+-+-+-+

"A well-rounded hunting battery might include:
500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" --
Conserving creation, hunting the harvest.
 
Posts: 4247 | Registered: 10 June 2009Reply With Quote
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No.

But I'm not fighting a million and a half North Koreans backed by an uncountable horde of Red Chinese.

I'm after the big one, two, three, four and back in the good old days, five.

An extra few tenths of an inch of case length then matter, and don't matter, and then matter again, respectively, if you think hard about it, and take my meaning.


Mike

Edited on advice of counsel.
 
Posts: 11566 | Location: New England | Registered: 06 June 2003Reply With Quote
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If anyone wants more speed, that's fine ,no doubt. But would the 470 Nitro 476 Westly Richards, 450 Rigby be too short?


Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle."
 
Posts: 1934 | Location: Eastern Central Alaska | Registered: 15 July 2014Reply With Quote
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CTF no question the 458 win mag presents efficient internal ballistics

a quick look at a 505 gibb and its performance compared to a 458 gives all of us a clue about that

When we began this discussion

question

can I shoot my 458 using the load data published in the hornady manual up to 78 grains of aa 2230

answer

send me your gun 2 boxes of 500 grain hornady bullets new hornady brass and a can of aa 2230 and I will load and shoot the rifle in one grain increments and we will see

better than half of the rifles we are testing can not get to 78 grains -- not if I am going to be the fool doing the shooting

some can, and look like they could go even another grain of go juice based on pressure, trouble is at 78 grains in the case with that bullet-- we are looking at about all-- I can cram in the thing

even then, they all light with the new chemistry of the modern powders, and produce velocities north of 2,300 fps--- in just 2 of the rifles-- we are working with now

don't count on getting that in your gun, but you just might, especially if it is packing a -- 26 inch barrel

EVERY GUN IS AND INDIVIDUAL AND MUST BE SHOT TO DEVELOPE MAXIMUM LOADS -- THAT IS OLD NEWS AND NEVER WILL THAT CONDITION CHANGE

I was surprised how much variability there is in a set of rifles, of one caliber, from different makers

I will bet, I would be surprised, how much variability I discovered in rifles from the same maker--- if I were to gather some up and test them [ the take home message here]

Michals right --- if he wants more velocity with a 500 grain bullet of 458 cal, a lott, 460 wby, 450 rigby, all might be a better fit than a 458 win mag

what the MORE means to me -- more velocity -- is anything north of let us say 2,150 fps with that projectile --even in a short 22 inch tube WE SEE 2,150 FPS

only fair to state that, most, BUT NOT ALL, of the guns we shot get NORTH OF 2,200, with not much extra load work--- so there is that -- AND THAT WAS THE INITIAL QUESTION

50 degrees of ambient heat--- sun heated bullets-- dam hot to the touch-- add just at 1 grain of powder velocity equivalent or 30 fps, in the rifles we have fired in this test --with this lot or can of aa 2230 powder--

when you get close to max --different lots of powder can make a difference -- so if you are trying to make a lott out of a 458 win mag -- I do not think that is a good idea -- at least not for me

you can run just about any gun you got in a 458 win mag at 2150, using hornady 500 bullets and aa 2230 powder in a 22 inch or 24 inch tube. but you gotta shoot your gun with factory, or loaded ammo to know what's what

we did not get to 140 deg fahrenheit just 135, may get a hotter day, on the next run

73 gn of aa 2230 makes a full case, and at that with no compression, under a hornady 500 grain solid or soft, in 2 of the rifles we tested, we see high pressure

both COLD and hot and-- no did not blow up the gun

don't ask me why there is so much variability between individual rifles -- I am not smart enough to know this thing about the art of internal ballistics

but I think it MUST go to volume and friction


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
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