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RIP

hope you don't bring up CRIME AND PUNISHMENT

again on account of that last post

because-- I am because of you-- only in to the 3 movement of the 18 parts of ULYSSES by Joyce

as i re read it

on account of your making fun of me like that a few post back

can't do 2 books at once and most certainly not when I am fighting my way through this one

your cute little punishment for my very naughty ''smart ass just can't help himself'' 458 not a lott crimes



RIP we have a box of barnes 400 gn s sitting here in the shop don't quite know why

but we do\\

quote -- wick ee up a pee diee ya

SECTIONAL DENSITY WHAT IS IT ALL ABOUT
The sectional density of a projectile can be employed in two areas of ballistics. Within external ballistics, when the sectional density of a projectile is divided by its coefficient of form (form factor in commercial small arms jargon[6]); it yields the projectile's ballistic coefficient.[7]

Sectional density has the same (implied) units as the ballistic coefficient.

SECTIONAL DENSITY AND TERMINAL BALLISTICS

Within terminal ballistics, the sectional density of a projectile is one of the determining factors for projectile penetration. The interaction between projectile (fragments) and target media is however a complex subject. A study regarding hunting bullets shows that besides sectional density several other parameters determine bullet penetration.[8][9][10]

Only if all other factors are equal, the projectile with the greatest amount of sectional density will penetrate the deepest.


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by stradling:
Only if all other factors are equal, the projectile with the greatest amount of sectional density will penetrate the deepest.


Well, doggees, let's not open that can of worms again. See Doc M's "Terminal Ballistics"
mega-thread.
Gerard Shultz has a tongue-in-cheek position that sectional density is a joke.
But we all believe the same.
We just get where we are going on different horses sometimes.

I believe that .458/400-grain GSC HV needs to be saddled and rode hard!
More 400-grainers at +2400 fps also need to be saddle broke.
Though I doubt any other will be as fast AND accurate as the GSC HV.

horse

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulysses_(novel)

"Joyce fans worldwide now celebrate 16 June as Bloomsday."
rotflmo
Rip
.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Don't have a dog in that fight

if i did would ''possibly'' get on your side of that bar room brawl

point here is simple really

if you have --or ever can-- by the grace of god-- get

a 450 watts short

you will never need a 505 gibbs

just soup up a load for your

don't need a lott

already got a 458 win mag Roll Eyes



no need to keep promoting that

literary work

masterpiece of the world

the irish did not conquer the world couldn't

they invented Jameson Irish Whiskey a bit soon for that to have happened

joyce i think musta drank his share

i might need some

just to get where I can

kinda take it all in stir

I am posting this at the risk of getting beat up around the head by a 270 win guy I hurt the feelings of a few posts back

cause it helps make my point

quote hawks



Sectional density (SD) is the numerical result of a calculation that compares a bullet's weight to its diameter. To calculate a bullet's sectional density divide the bullet's weight (in pounds) by its diameter (in inches), squared. The higher the SD number the better the SD and the heavier a bullet is in proportion to its diameter. SD stays the same for all bullets of the same weight in the same caliber; shape does not affect SD.

SD is important because it has a significant effect on penetration. Other things being equal (like impact velocity, bullet design and expansion, etc.) the higher the SD number, the better the bullet's penetration. In other words, a skinny bullet of a given weight tends to penetrate better than a fat bullet of the same weight, because it concentrates the same force on a smaller area of the target. For example, if other factors are equal, a 150 grain .270 bullet will penetrate better than a 150 grain .35 caliber bullet.

Penetration is important because the bullet must get well inside an animal to disrupt the functioning of its vital organs. A bullet that fails to penetrate the fur, skin, muscle and bone necessary to reach the vital organs is very unlikely to bring an animal down.

Probably the best way to compare different calibers is by SD, not bullet weight. Comparing calibers by bullet weight can be deceiving. For example, the .270 Winchester and .30-06, which are based on the same case, can both shoot 150 grain bullets. However, the 150 grain .30-06 bullet (SD .226) is best used for Class 2 (deer size) game, while the 150 grain .270 bullet (SD .279) is most appropriate for Class 3 (elk size) game. The 150 grain .270 bullet should actually be compared to the 180 grain .30-06 bullet (SD .271), as both of these bullets are appropriate for Class 3 game in their respective calibers and boast similar SD's. This is important to remember when comparing rifle bullets.


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
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EXCELLENT POINT

WORST CASE THE TUMBLING BULLET

2 SD'S

1 SD IN FLIGHT

THEN

2 SD AFTER IT IMPACTS THE TARGET

SD IN TERMINAL BALLISTIC EVENTS

THINGS LIKE PENETRATION, PENETRATION PATH, TENDENCY TO RESIST DEVIATION

SHOOTING ELEPHANT

ASS TO IVORY

KIND OF A THING

TRIMMING THE BOTTOM METAL






NOW IN THE GUN


ONCE MORE READY FOR A FEW MORE RANGE TESTS



Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
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From imaginary square-bullet SD, that is just a unitless ratio ...
to Alf picking the fly specks out of a dynamic SD with real units of pounds per square inch (or take your scientific pick)
but requiring calculus to calculate an infinite number of values for it over a finite time period ...
to something more practical ...
Nice work, stradling.
Nice segway.
tu2
Rip
.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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I believe in SD, whether imaginary-static or real-dynamic. tu2
I just believe the .458/400-grainer with SD of 0.272 is a nice bullet for meat-harvesting,
about like a .308/180-grainer, or .375/270-grainer.
More fun to shoot, save the higher numbers for the big-big jobs.

To go along with the GSC HV and North Fork SS .458/400-grainers, maybe a Cutting Edge .458/400-gr Lever Gun Safari Solid?

Found at Midway USA, these 400-grainers:

400-gr Woodleigh Weldcore Protected Point with BC of 0.340

400-gr Woodleigh Hydrostatically Stabilized Solid

400-gr Swift A-Frame

400-gr Barnes Original Semi-Spitzer Flat Base, BC 0.389 (if you don't mash the soft lead tip)

400-gr Barnes Buster Flat Nose Flat Base "Expanding Solid" of sorts Cool

For varmints:
300-grain Barnes TTSX borrowed from the 458 SOCOM: SD = 0.204, BC = 0.236

holycow The sacred cow, low-pressure, .458 WinMag 400-grainer at +2400 fps should be easy now,
dead-on at 200 yards.
backed up with a magazine full of heavier bullets,
dead-on at 100 yards?
The Pre-'64 M70 300 WinMag parts gun is getting turned into a .458 WinMag aka .450 Watts Short-A with 3.4" box,
using a bobbed-at-the-breech CZ 550 Magnum barrel.
Parts is parts.
Cool

Also found at Midway USA is a potential bullet for the 450 Watts Short-C with 3.8" box length and 1:10" twist barrel,
barrel can be 16" long and easily get +750 fps, get that barrel threaded for a suppressor: tu2



Above bullet would not work so well in a .458 Lott, the 450 Watts Short wins again. animal

Rip
.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
( penetration is a dynamic process, where the penetrator may deform, fragment, erode or show tumble ) in flight the penetrator presents itself at an angle relative to the arc described by its direction of motion. This means that it's SD is not constant throughout its whole flight path, it changes over distance it is Dynamic



I have to disagree with part of this.

A projectile in its arc is still parallel to its arc, unless something is wrong as it leaves the barrel. The bullet doesn't side slip it merely follows its arc and arrives centered on its axis even though it maybe descending slightly due to distance.


Roger
___________________________
I'm a trophy hunter - until something better comes along.
- Glen St Charles

*we band of 45-70ers*
 
Posts: 2505 | Location: Washington (wetside) | Registered: 08 February 2005Reply With Quote
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practice loads for the 458 win mag

350 gn lead
400 gn lead

or 400 gn factory seconds copper 45 70 bullets

66 gn of win 760 powder

win large rifle primer

you and your kids can shoot them all day

that's how I ended up with six of them

used the soft shooting 458 win mags to help the ladies handle the recoil produced by the hard kicking 9.3 x 62 elephant killer rifles they all took to africa to harvest planes game last october

you can shoot them all day loaded up like that

just enough punch to know its not a 22 makes you feel like you are one of those men that can keep up with a crowd of much younger women

can be quite fulfilling to join a shooting group like that

the all done at the range, taking em all to lunch bill can get somewhat steep

then there is the possibility of a mood swing here and there

remember she now has confidence with her rifle

knows how to hit things with it-- minite of grapefruit accuracy -- no matter standing or moving or even bouncing down a hill

no longer afraid of a dirty rifle --so some recoil possible right there-- if you don't keep your eye on the 458 win mag

makes a great training rifle for someone with a 375 hh flinch == that needs fixed much easier to shoot down hill to recoil when you are thinking about it


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
I have to disagree with part of this.

A projectile in its arc is still parallel to its arc, unless something is wrong as it leaves the barrel. The bullet doesn't side slip it merely follows its arc and arrives centered on its axis even though it maybe descending slightly due to distance.


I think Alf's point is that there is always "something wrong as it leaves the barrel" and that is each bullet leaves the barrel slightly different in terms of yaw, so not truly parallel to it's arc. We hope that bullet settles down during it's flight but we also Know that if that flight lasts long enough, it once again exhibits increasing yaw. So his statement is on point even if exceedingly fine point.


"The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights."
~George Washington - 1789
 
Posts: 2089 | Location: Where God breathes life into the Amber Waves of Grain and owns the cattle on a thousand hills. | Registered: 20 August 2002Reply With Quote
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Back to the 458 WM; I find Cast Lead from 425 grain to the just loaded 485 grain, just wonderful to both shoot for fun and shoot for NA game loads.
I am looking forward to smacking a whitetail this year with the 485 with it's huge flat meplat. LBT MOLD 460-470-WFN
Feeds perfect in my Whitworth loaded at 3.265" OAL and I expect it to do very well on game.


"The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights."
~George Washington - 1789
 
Posts: 2089 | Location: Where God breathes life into the Amber Waves of Grain and owns the cattle on a thousand hills. | Registered: 20 August 2002Reply With Quote
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Cast-bullet loads for the .458 Win Mag!
All kinds of possibilities from trapdoor .45-70 Govt ballistics (smokeless or BP) to Quigley Down Under loads with duplex loads.

Paul A. Matthews' has a .45-108-550 imitation load which he does with the .458 WinMag case
and a 550-gr paper-patched bullet giving 1342 fps, I guess, from a Ruger No.1.
He uses 12 grains of 4759 and 72 grains of FFg. Lessee, 12 x 3 = 36.
36 + 72 = 108 grains equivalent of BP
Just a little down under a Quigley.

The duplex loads burn clean, no blow tube huffing and puffing between shots needed,
but you can still make a lot of smoke from the muzzle when you pull the trigger,
if that special effect is desired. Cool

I have a 30" long Pedersoli .45-70 take-off barrel,
.458"-groove/.450"-bore and 1:18"-twist, full octagon 1.100 at breech to 1.000" at muzzle, across the flats.
Might whack off the threads on that and re-chamber it for .458 WinMag,
on a CZ 550 Magnum action
with Phat-American laminate stock hogged out for the barrel, left 29" long.
That would be a .450 Watts Short-C conversation piece for sure.
Dang, this thread has given me all kinds of ideas! Good or bad, yet to be decided. animal

The .458 WinMag cartridge case is ideal for cast bullet loads,
gas-checked or plain-based, fast or slow, bullets light or heavy as you like.
Tune the loads for accuracy, all else is easy.
How does that long SAAMI throat work for accuracy with cast bullets? Confused

Might need to consider a shorter effective throat for cast bullet accuracy.

Rip
.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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I finally thought of a way the .458 Lott might be considered in some way better than the .458 WinMag.
They both need to be chambered in a 3.8"-boxed rifle (e.g., CZ 550 Magnum, etc.) for maximum velocity.
They will both get about the same velocity and pressure,
but the .458 Lott might be more accurate overall with long loads and cast bullets.

However, a slugging of the throat on a SAAMI .458 WinMag and a bullet mould made to fit that throat ...
It would be sort of like a giant 22RF bullet,
.459"-diameter rebated base and .469"-diameter nose tapering at 1*30" for 0.650" length,
then some usual .458-caliber ogive on top of that ... NEVER MIND ... as you were.

Most cast bullets will have to jump a long way before starting to take the rifling engraving in a .458 WinMag.
But just for practice loads, minute of rolling tire would be fine.

I have had a few 3-shot, 0.75-MOA, 100-yard results from .458 WinMags with 500-grain, jacketed bullets,
and I have a CZ .458 WinMag factory test target from 2002 that is just about that also:
100 meters, 3 shots, 0.75" center-to-center.

I do not consider the SAAMI .458 WinMag to be inaccurate.

I hope that was the take-off barrel going onto my Pre-'64 WinM70 .450 Watts Short-A. hilbily
I do know that CZ action and stock became a .308/300 Lapua Magnum.

Oh well, that barrel is going to be on one of my .450 Watts Short rifles eventually.
sofa
Rip
.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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The accuracy with cast is fine on my 458. I'm aware that the large throat is regarded a problem but in my sample of one, it's not. Bullets sized 459, plenty of lube, tuft of Dacron are reliable hunting loads out to my self imposed 200 yard limit.


"The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights."
~George Washington - 1789
 
Posts: 2089 | Location: Where God breathes life into the Amber Waves of Grain and owns the cattle on a thousand hills. | Registered: 20 August 2002Reply With Quote
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Fury01 the crimping of lead bullets and accuracy as it relates to the 458 running lead

what is the max velocity possable and how does loading methods make or break accuracy

we shoot a 500 gn lead with reduced loads some

always wondered just how much harder I might drive it

CTF not saying it would be a reliable go to load for bear protection but then you never quite know what the other guy -- [RIP] -- can get done once he puts his mind to it

these can be 20 pennies per bullet once bought right

5744 powder offers unlimited possibilities when you start with a 458 win mag

not much you can not get done with the gun from heavy subsonic to 505 gibbs stopping rifle performance

ONE OF THE MOST UNDER UTILIZED CARTRIDGES ON PLANET EARTH

looks like we are going RANGE HOT tomorrow at high noon

and of special mention

leave it to RIP to be one of the few, if not the only one to pick up on the ''segway''

wonder if he, like Joyce, likes jamison


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
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I have tried not sizing the brass, did not work, and I now use my full length sizer and almost hit the shell holder with the die. So partially sized. I bell the case with a Lee die meant for the task. Load either 39 grains of 4759 or 51 AA2015, tuft of Dacron, put a light crimp on with a Lee Factory crimp die. This closes the bell back up and squeezes the bullet a bit. I have no slippage in the magazine when fired and as mentioned my accuracy is good. I think a .459 or .460 sized and well lubed bullet will shoot in a 458 WM just fine. If yours doesn't, change bullets and soften up your alloy. Lyman #2 and down to BHN 10-12 works fine at about 1800 FPS. I have not chron-ed and don't intend to. Just going off of several loading books for speeds. I have no leading. None. I wiped the bore clean of lube, carbon after each session. I shoot in 100 + degrees and down to 10 degrees. It just works. I have my 433 grain whitetail load sighted dead on at 200 yards and can hold 2-5" over sticks at that range for quite a few shots. I have not shot my 485 gain at range yet. I expect it to do just fine. I'll let you know.


"The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights."
~George Washington - 1789
 
Posts: 2089 | Location: Where God breathes life into the Amber Waves of Grain and owns the cattle on a thousand hills. | Registered: 20 August 2002Reply With Quote
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This is GREAT info for an old cheapskate like myself. Been shooting powder coated RCBS 500 gr BPS bullets of my own droppage in my Shilo Sharps and have three or four moulds for 459-460 dia bullets. Will be working up loads for the 458 WM.
 
Posts: 419 | Location: Wyoming/ Idaho, St Joe river | Registered: 17 November 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Les Staley:
This is GREAT info for an old cheapskate like myself ...


Ditto.
I can just about re-create Fury01's loads with what I have on hand:



Weights are averages of 10 each, 485-grainer and 409-grainer, as shown.
About +/- 3 grains on each bullet extreme spread.
Good enough for rolling tire work. tu2

485-grain RN-GC: The one on the left. It was home-cast using the Lyman mould #2640671, Hornady .45-cal gas check, and a Lyman Lubrisizer.
Nose punch flattens the RN a bit,
turning it into a RN-FP.

409-grain Berry's Hard Cast: The one on the right, can't be found at their web site now.
I have about 350 of those old ones left.
Here is what they are showing at their web site now, a newer variant RN-FP 405-grain nominal,
can't say I am crazy about a solitary lube groove and beveled base,
maybe use a lube cookie and card and newsprint wads under this one?:



https://www.berrysmfg.com/item...45-70-458-405gr-rnfp

First an "Elmer Keith 45-70 Equivalent": 400-grainer at 1800 fps.
Then the 485-grainer at about same velocity.
Kills only on the muzzle end of the rifle. tu2

I am going to make cast-bullet loads the first priority for my .450 Watts Short-A.
A lighter load for "My Maker" to check the chamber with.
Save those last few old 510-grain WW factory loads for me. Cool

Since the Pre-'64 M70 threads are 1-16 (1.000" major diameter, 16 threads per inch, 0.600" engagement, 9-1/2 threads),
they might possibly be turned within the minor diameter of the CZ 550 Magnum barrel threads.
The rifle might end up with the entire knoxform preserved, with the
"CAL.458
WIN.MAG."
stamping showing on the top of the barrel.
Then it will only need a "450 WATTS SHORT" stamped on the side below that. Cool

Rip
.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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I never had any luck with the bevel base cast in my 458. All the cast that work for me are gas check therefore flatbased. I whack them in the butt with a good mag primer and the powder described. I presume they bump up a bit and down the bore they go. Dacron helped consistancy.
Good shooting to you sir!


"The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights."
~George Washington - 1789
 
Posts: 2089 | Location: Where God breathes life into the Amber Waves of Grain and owns the cattle on a thousand hills. | Registered: 20 August 2002Reply With Quote
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Fury01,

I am taking notes.

Bump them up with a fast powder. tu2
I found my Lee Factory Crimp Die for .458 WinMag. tu2
Use a filler for uniformity. tu2
Even with ACCURATE 5744, IMHO.
Western Powders Reloading & Load Data Guide Edition 6.0 has some nice data for ACCURATE 5744:

.458 Winchester Magnum
Barrel 24" // Twist 1:14" // Primer F-215 // Case WIN // Trim length 2.490" min, 2.500" max

Bullet: 405-grain Lead WLNGC (Wide Long Nose Gas Check) by Cast Performance (LBT mould)
https://www.midwayusa.com/prod...-gas-check-box-of-50
COL 3.000"
ACCURATE 5744
Start Load grains: 45.9 >>> 1909 fps
Maximum Load grains: 51.0 >>> 2170 fps <<< 59,708 PSI

Bullet: 460-grain Lead WFNGC (Wide Flat Nose Gas Check) by Cast Performance (LBT mould)
https://www.midwayusa.com/prod...-gas-check-box-of-50
COL 3.110"
ACCURATE 5744
Start Load grains: 44.1 >>> 1779 fps
Maximum Load grains: 49.0 >>> 2022 fps <<< 61,360 PSI

Those starting loads might work well with my bullets,
rounded off to 46.0 grains powder with my 409-grainer
and 44.0 grains powder with my 485-grainer.

A filler made all the difference in the world with my .50-70 Musket loads with ACCURATE 5744.
I will do the same with the .458 WinMag.
1800 fps is fast enough, tu2
well below 59-60 Kpsi max loads. Eeker

Rip
.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by stradling:
Fury01 the crimping of lead bullets and accuracy as it relates to the 458 running lead

what is the max velocity possable and how does loading methods make or break accuracy

we shoot a 500 gn lead with reduced loads some

always wondered just how much harder I might drive it

CTF not saying it would be a reliable go to load for bear protection but then you never quite know what the other guy -- [RIP] -- can get done once he puts his mind to it

these can be 20 pennies per bullet once bought right

5744 powder offers unlimited possibilities when you start with a 458 win mag

I'm in the process of getting going casting bullets. I have a Mihec 45 Ruger 4 cavity brass mold with all the pins for the cup nose , shallow hollow nose , penta hollow nose and DEEP hollow nose inserts and the flat side inserts. Gas Checked. For my 45 Colt. A 476/400 Lee 2 cavity mold plain base . And a Mihec 477-640 brass 2 cavity gas check with all the different nose design inserts somewhere between Slovenia and Glennallen.
I have been thinking of getting a couple molds for the 458 . Probably gas checked . I don't have a problem using a cast boolit for killin bears. Just need. The right alloy and the right temper.


Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle."
 
Posts: 1934 | Location: Eastern Central Alaska | Registered: 15 July 2014Reply With Quote
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RE: SD
What the answer is: the average length of the bullet. a .224" and a .458" bullet will be the same "average length" if they have the same proportion of metal densities and the same SD. so a .224" bullet has a potential for a slipperier shape than a .458" with the same SD. If both were solids and kept point forward I'd expect the smaller diameter bullet to penetrate better.
 
Posts: 1421 | Location: WA St, USA | Registered: 28 August 2016Reply With Quote
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quote:
Kills only on the muzzle end of the rifle.

someone must have got up gone out and fired of a few 100 of em Wink

how else could he know


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by stradling:
quote:
Kills only on the muzzle end of the rifle.

someone must have got up gone out and fired of a few 100 of em Wink

how else could he know


The .458 Winchester Magnum

By Chuck Hawks


.458 Win.
Illustration courtesy of Hornady Mfg. Co.
The .458 Winchester Magnum is the most popular "elephant rifle" cartridge in the world. It was introduced in 1956, the first of the original series of three Winchester belted magnum cartridges for standard length actions.

In the United States .458 Mag. factory loads are available from A-Square, Federal, Hornady, Norma, Remington, Speer and Winchester. Bullet weights run from 350-510 grains in both expanding and non-expanding (solid) types. .458 Mag. ammunition is manufactured and distributed world wide.

Federal's line for the .458 Win. Mag. includes a couple of 500 grain controlled expansion type bullets, and a 500 grain solid. All of these are loaded to a MV of 2,090 fps and a ME of 4,850 ft. lbs. The 100 yard figures are 1,870 fps and 3,880 ft. lbs. The solid is the traditional choice for breaking down thick-skinned dangerous game like elephant, rhino, and Cape buffalo.

Reloaders have their choice of 300, 350, 400, 450, and 500 grain bullets in hollow point, soft point, premium controlled expansion, and solid (full metal jacket) types. They also have the option of reduced power and recoil loads for CXP2 and CXP3 class game that can considerably increase the versatility of the .458 Win. Mag. cartridge. It is a good idea to crimp bullets in high power reloads, as the ferocious recoil of the .458 can cause bullets to set back in the case if they are not crimped in place.

Medium burning rifle powders generally work best for full power loads in the .458's straight wall case. These include such numbers as H335, H4895, IMR 3031, and IMR 4895.

Here are some specifications of interest to .458 Mag. reloaders: bullet diameter .458", maximum COL 3.34", maximum case length 2.50", MAP 53,000 cup.

For hunting CXP3 class game, I use the Hornady 350 grain RN bullet and IMR 3031 powder. The sixth edition of the Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading shows that 64.3 grains of IMR 3031 powder behind a 350 grain bullet gives a MV of 2100 fps. This is the load I use. A maximum load of 75.5 grains of IMR 3031 can drive a 350 grain Hornady bullet to a MV of 2400 fps.

For CXP4 class game, 67.5 grains of H335 powder behind a 500 grain Hornady bullet gave a MV of 1950 fps, and a maximum load of 76.3 grains of H335 gave a MV of 2150 fps. All of these loads from the Hornady Handbook used Winchester cases and Win. WLRM primers, and were chronographed in a 24" rifle barrel

THEN THERE IS BOB MITCHELL

’ve experience with two owned .458 Winchester Magnums. The first was quite different than the last in some physical qualities: It was shorter by 4.5-inches, lighter by a couple of pounds, handier, and I wish I still had it! The last had a 25-inch barrel (original length barrel for a .458 Win Mag to attain original ballistics), weighed 11.25 lbs all-up, ready for action. It also had a true magnum-length, Mauser-type action that allowed bullets to be seated up to 3.75-inch COL. The 3-inch longer barrel, coupled with the long action, accompanied by today’s best powders, permitted ballistics that equal the .458 Lott, which, by the way, might be no more than 50-75 fps at equal pressure and barrel length than the original .458 Winchester Magnum!


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
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stradling,
Remind me who Bob Mitchell is, please.
Bob Mitchell sounds like a smart fellow.
He says just what I have been meaning to say about the .458 Win.Mag.
I have some Mitchell relatives on my maternal grandmother's side. Wink

Looked into my .458 Win.Mag. stash and found this, a complete, 20-round, factory-loaded box of A-Square .458 Win.Mag. ammo:



Back in the dark ages (1996) when the unlearned still badmouthed the .458 Winchester Magnum,
here is what Saint Finn Aagaard said about it on page 543 of
ANY SHOT YOU WANT
THE A-SQUARE HANDLOADING AND RIFLE MANUAL
:

"A good 400-grain projectile, which can be pushed to about 2400 fps, would probably make a superb lion or bear stopper. But I would want more weight for the big stuff. I prefer A-Square's approach, which is to load the Triad of bullets in 465-grain weight to 2200 fps at the muzzle. A .458-caliber bullet of that weight still retains a very decent sectional density of .317, compared to .305 for the 300-grain .375. In my testing the 465-grain A-Square Dead Tough bullet out-penetrated all but one of several 500-grain expanding bullets tried, and it equaled that one's performance.

"Given good handloads, or the appropriate A-Square load, there is still nothing I would rather have in my sweaty paws, in a hairy situation with dangerous game, than my Winchester M-70 or my old Westley Richards in .458 Winchester Magnum."

Apparently Saint Finn liked Winchesters or Mausers about equally well.

Here are the starting loads to use as chamber checkers for my new .450 Watts Short/.458 WinMag in the works.

Thanks to Fury01 for the loading tips.
A Lee factory crimp die was applied lightly to the 485-grain Lyman RN-GC with no crimping cannelure.
The 409-grain Berry's Hard Cast (RN-FP Plain Base) got a regular roll crimp at its cannelure.
Brass used was new W-W from which I pulled some previously loaded bullets to reload with these cast bullets, for expediency:



I will chronograph the above for posterity,
including the A-Square ammo,
after I get finished with some .410/404 JRNE wildcat chronographing.
I am aiming to get that one to push a 400-grainer to 2400 fps.
That is something the .458 WinMag does easier now than it did in the 1988 to 1996 time frame. tu2

Nice summary on the .458 Winchester Magnum here:

https://www.revolvy.com/main/i...0Winchester%20Magnum

It includes this:

"SAAMI recommends a 6 groove with a twist ratio of 1:14 with a bore Ø of .450 in (11.43 mm) and a groove Ø of .458 in (11.63 mm) with each groove having an arc length of .150 in (3.81 mm). While case volume varies between manufacturers, the typical Winchester case capacity is 95 grain of HO (6.17 cm3 ). Maximum recommended pressure given by SAAMI is 53,000 c.u.p. while the CIP mandates a maximum pressure of 4,300 bar (62,000 psi)."

And this:

"With modern powders the .458 Winchester Magnum is capable of launching a 300 gr (19 g) bullet at 2,600 ft/s (790 m/s), a 350 gr (23 g) bullet at 2,500 ft/s (760 m/s), a 400 gr (26 g) bullet at 2,400 ft/s (730 m/s), and the 450 gr (29 g) bullet at 2,300 ft/s (700 m/s). However, as no mainline ammunition manufacturer provides sub-500 gr (32 g) .458 Winchester ammunition this is a choice for those who load their own ammunition or have access to custom-loaded ammunition."

And it ends with this:

"Due to the negative publicity, Winchester increased the performance of the .458 Winchester Magnum, which allowed the 500 gr (32 g) bullet to achieve 2,240 ft/s (680 m/s). While Winchester, like most .458 Winchester Magnum ammunition manufacturers (except Norma), continues to state velocities achieved from the 26 in (660 mm) test barrel, the velocity from a 24 in (610 mm) barrel is in keeping with the original expectations of the cartridge.[11]"

Rip
.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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https://bigborefan.wordpress.c...8-win-mag-advantage/

more on bob and the 458

we are not the only ones getting these velocitys

when you look around

everyone that's woke up pretty much is



That’s not a blast at Hornady as ALL bullet manufacturers these days have had to improve their products just to maintain a competitive edge and stay in business! But all the “hootin’ n’ hollerin’ ” on the forums amplify the notion that we need ’em to stay competitive! And that notion has become nonsense! Don’t misjudge my sentiments as suggesting we didn’t ask for them therefore we don’t want them… No, no, no… It’s simply that the idea that the “old” is no good anymore, useless, fit for the scrap-heap… THAT is nonsensical. I managed to shoot and KILL a 9-point buck several years ago with a plain-jane 180gr Hornady Interloc in .30-caliber. That’s not especially news-worthy, but the fact that it was only at 30 yards from my .300 Win Mag, leaving the muzzle at 3000+ fps might be, at least to some inquisitive buck chasers. Add the fact that it was DRT! It never wiggled… once! And, NO meat loss… My goodness, how can a “new and improved” bullet improve on that?

NOW for the DGX results:

Components: WW brass, WLRM primers, AA2230 powder and 480gr DGX bullet.

Load 1: 71-grains/2181 fps (5069 ft-lbs)

Load 2: 72-grains/2190 fps (5111 ft-lbs)

Load 3: 73-grains/2206 fps (5186 ft-lbs)

Load 4: 74-grains/2227 fps (5285 ft-lbs)

Observations/comments/recommendations:

Clearly, those are very good numbers for a .458 Winchester Magnum when we consider that the basic standard for African DG has been the following: a sectional density of at least .300; a bore of .458″ and a KE of 5000 ft-lbs. These loads ALL surpass the KE number, plus the .480-grain has an SD of .327–much better than the 300-grain/.375 H&H with an SD of .305… AND surpassing it’s KE (kinetic energy) by 500 to 800 ft-lbs! PLUS, much higher momentum (by 37%) and a 50% larger bore!

But those are NOT the highest numbers recorded from the 480 DGX! That honor goes to H335 which produced 2254 fps (5414 ft-lbs). Now to be fair-n-square about it… That was not necessarily a top load from AA2230. But it may have been. I’ll have to see to that sometime in the months ahead.

The average COL was 3.4″ using AA2230 and the average COL using H335 was 3.35″. No doubt, when loaded to a max COL (with that bullet) of 3.53″, 2300 fps could be attained using H335, and perhaps as well from AA2230.


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
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stradling,
Thanks for the introduction to Bob Mitchell.
Opening paragraph includes these eye-openers:

"... 460 hardcast (Lyman-very poor results) Eeker , 465 cast (fair results), 450 A-Frame, 480 Hornady DGX and 500 Hornady Interloc. Velocities for loads that gave good to excellent results ranged from just over 2000 fps (405 Remington) to 2750 fps for the 350 TSX." Eeker
coffee
Rip
.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Lengthen your OAL on the cast loads. Don't worry about exposed grease grooves. Load as long as you can feed out of the magazine and soften the alloy on that "Hard cast" load. Was your lube making it to the end of the barrel producing a lube star on the muzzle? Should be. Cast is a bit of the black arts say many folks.


"The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights."
~George Washington - 1789
 
Posts: 2089 | Location: Where God breathes life into the Amber Waves of Grain and owns the cattle on a thousand hills. | Registered: 20 August 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Fury01:
Lengthen your OAL on the cast loads. Don't worry about exposed grease grooves. Load as long as you can feed out of the magazine and soften the alloy on that "Hard cast" load. Was your lube making it to the end of the barrel producing a lube star on the muzzle? Should be. Cast is a bit of the black arts say many folks.


Directed at Mr. Mitchell, I presume.
I have not read enough of his blog to figure out what his problem with cast bullets was all about.

I still have not fired a single cast bullet in any .458 WinMag rifle.
I better get started on it by digging out my Whitworth MkX Safari Gal and shoot those two starting loads,
before the eclipse later today. tu2

Total solar eclipse! Bah! Humbug!
Might project it through the spotting scope at the range, it is 90% of total where I am.
I am not going to Hopkinsville, KY for totality of 2-1/2 minutes.
Been there, done that once before, at least.

Students with their sunscopes.
Francis Miller—The LIFE Picture Collection/Getty Images

http://time.com/3737424/solar-eclipse/



Hopkinsville is where Western State Psychiatric Hospital is located,
synonymous around here with "They're coming to take you away, ho-ho, ha-ha." cuckoo

I will adjust as you suggest.
I have the 500-grain RN Govt mould by Lyman to give a try after that.
Load longer, softer lead, lube star on the muzzle crown, noted. tu2
Ditto any repeats with the 485-gr RN-GC from Lyman.
The 409-grain Berry's Hard Cast RN-FP-Plain-Base are what they are. Fingers crossed.
Its a start for me on cast bullets in the .458 WinMag.

Rip
.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
The problem I had with the 2.5 power Lupold was the reticle is blanket blank useless on a nice pouring down rain late afternoon on a wet bear or deer in the brush. I could see the animals . could NOT see the crosshairs on the animal.
I got tired of getting upper cutted in my right cheek bone by the comb of the stocks And holding my thumb weird to pack my rifle around sucks. So I mount my scopes as high as I can so I shoot in a heads up position. .


Sounds like you need to spend as much time on procuring a good stock design as you do a scope


Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship
Phil Shoemaker
Alaska Master guide
CFII
NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com
 
Posts: 3963 | Location: Bristol Bay | Registered: 24 April 2004Reply With Quote
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I've been dealing with brown bears for about 40 years,, some just off the end of the barrel,, I never felt a second of hesitation with a 458 in ny hands! The 425 Express is solid and my 500 Mag is worthy but the 458 Win Mag has so much behind it!!!!!!!!


I tend to use more than enough gun
 
Posts: 1325 | Location: lake iliamna alaska | Registered: 10 February 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by 458Win:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
The problem I had with the 2.5 power Lupold was the reticle is blanket blank useless on a nice pouring down rain late afternoon on a wet bear or deer in the brush. I could see the animals . could NOT see the crosshairs on the animal.
I got tired of getting upper cutted in my right cheek bone by the comb of the stocks And holding my thumb weird to pack my rifle around sucks. So I mount my scopes as high as I can so I shoot in a heads up position.
My 9.3 has about the perfect stock shape for me . And I have extra high Warne 30mm rings on it.

Sounds like you need to spend as much time on procuring a good stock design as you do a scope


Several neck and spine injuries helped me figure out that a more heads up position is the most comfortable way for me to shoot. And I get the added bonus of being able to wrap my thumb over the bolt when packing the rifle around. I just put a real recoil pad on the Fagen synthetic stock on my 375 Whelan Ackley Improved. My friend put the tallest front sight on it he had. Which is the tallest I've ever seen. And raised the Williams Aperture sight the exact commensurate amount. It is perfectly zeroed @25 yards and just a schoosh low at 150. And its much more comfortable to shoot even tho I still have a good cheek weld.
My 458 has the canoe paddle stock on it so it was either raise the rings


Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle."
 
Posts: 1934 | Location: Eastern Central Alaska | Registered: 15 July 2014Reply With Quote
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7 pages and nothings changed, them that likes it and them that don't...as it should be..Continue until yer hearts desire on a subject that has never been settled and never will...That's a good thing, not a bad thing..
Adios amigos...


Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 Ward Lane,
Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-731-4120

rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com
 
Posts: 38333 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000Reply With Quote
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Atkinson's encore, we been holding our lighters up in the dark, stomping our feet until he came back. clap

Ah, yes, in the dark, briefly today with the eclipse ... shot the Mark X Whitworth Safari:





with A-Square load tu2
and my cast bullet loads. thumbdown
I had to shoot at 25 yards to be able to hit the paper with my cast loads.

The A-Square factory load with 465-grain Monolithic Solids were advertised at 2220 fps MV from a 26" barrel.
5-shot average for MV in my 24" barrel: 2139 fps, Sd of 11 fps.
All 5 shots went into 1" at 25 yards with open irons, Express sights, shallow V and bead:
OK, close target, but that was done as an extra,
I was setting up for the cast bullet loads. Eeker :

5 shots with each bullet.

Lyman 485gr RN-FP-GC, 1:10 alloy, .459"-sized and lubed (barely), 44.0 grains of Accurate 5744 with a foam wad filler:
5-yard chrono average: 1770 fps, Sd 6 fps
Three of those bullets made a 6-inch pattern in the lower right corner of a 16"-square target at 25 yards.
ONE of those bullets was turned completely sideways, keyholed. TWO made round holes in the target.
TWO bullets missed the target.

Deja vu:

409-grain Berry's Hard Cast RN-FP Plain base, .459"-sized and lubed at factory, 46.0 grains of Accurate 5744 with a foam wad filler:
5-yard chrono average: 1884 fps, Sd 16 fps
FOUR of those bullets made a 6-inch pattern in the lower right corner of a 16"-square target at 25 yards.
THREE of those bullets were turned completely sideways, keyholed, ONE made a round hole
One bullet missed the target.

I am going to have to visit the local hoo-doo practitioner and get a mojo bag to carry when I shoot cast bullets.

I will forget about those two bullets altogether and go for the 500-grain RN Government Plain Base, left big as possible and cast 1:30, working down to pure lead if needed.
A lube cookie and pan lubed bullets. Card and newsprint wad ... lower velocity?

I am wondering if the cast bullets got too long a run before engaging rifling and just skidded along the rifling with hit and miss spinning, more missing than hitting.

No lube stars on my muzzle, but there is some lead in the bore!

Reminds me of the ".458 Winchester Special" a non-SAAMI shorter-throated version,
mainly for use with cast-bullet loads ...
sofa

Rip
.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Rip
That was no fun. Sorry to hear about it. Maybe my Whitworth is just magic. I have WILLIAM Berry bullets and a fellow who is out of the business bullets both the Rcbs 405 Cg mould. 425 and 433 as dropped. One moly lubed. One harder lubed. Added Alox to both. 459 sized. Loaded 3.275. Dacron filler.
Don't know what else to tell you.


"The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights."
~George Washington - 1789
 
Posts: 2089 | Location: Where God breathes life into the Amber Waves of Grain and owns the cattle on a thousand hills. | Registered: 20 August 2002Reply With Quote
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Rip
You will have to slow down that plain base 500. 1400 -1600
Some folks swear by slow rifle powders but I can't say as have never used anything slower than aa2015. Sr4759 is great cast powder for me. Ken Waters preferred imr 4227 which loads at about the same rate.
William Berry sells on GB.
GOOD LUCK!


"The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights."
~George Washington - 1789
 
Posts: 2089 | Location: Where God breathes life into the Amber Waves of Grain and owns the cattle on a thousand hills. | Registered: 20 August 2002Reply With Quote
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Today range test included shooting the 458 win mag

The 550 grain woodleigh solids

at 73 grains aa 2230 powder from one [new] 8 # lot/can 2,160 fps ---recoil noticeable

some tendency to develop the standard recoil induced headache

all velocity data recorded on our lab radar equipment

798 Remington zastava 26 inch barrel rifle


walked them up from 69 gn of aa 2230 to 73 gn

no significant pressure show on primers at top powder charge so

all loads were under some compression


more later when we summarize the data

2nd run of bullets 500 gn solids hornady

71.5 grains of aa 2230 powder velocity in the 26 inch tube running 2180 cold and plus <30 fps hot 133 deg f measured w standard infrared heat gun sun heat on back of pickup tailgate

will give exact numbers when we sum and average the total rounds fired

test was one rifle only

we will run more detail testing once the subject rifle is stocked and further along in the build cycle

the 9 pound rifle can be loaded up to stopping rifle energy if the user can stand the significant recoil

really a bit to much for me to employ as a standard hunting round at 73 grains of aa 2230 moving a 550 grain solid

loaded and cycled OK so not much of an issue there and if a gun is loaded and set up to run em it will be reliable in our opinion

so that is about as much as we will push the envelope with the work we are doing on the caliber in this effort

range temperature was 88 90 deg f


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
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popcorn
We are anxiously awaiting the ThermoBallistic Independence analysis.

We need to standardize some terminology:
TBI sounds too much like traumatic brain injury, which could be caused by shooting 550-grain Woodleighs too often.

Let's call it simply TI: Thermoballistic Inpendence.

The measure of TI is a simple ratio of the change in velocity (fps) to the change in temperature (degrees F), for a specific powder and cartridge combination.
Let's call that the Thermoballistic Independence Index: TII

TII = dv/dt

The lower the TII the better for the rifleman.

IIRC the last "hot-ammo" experiment showed TII of 0.5
(i.e., 0.5 fps/*F).

Latest one had about this:
2180 fps @ 88*F >>> 2210 fps @ 133*F?

TII = dv/dt = 30 fps/45 *F = 0.67

Still very good. Excellent for a ball powder like Accurate 2230. tu2

Speaking of which, 73.0 grains of Accurate 2230 is again truly impressive with the 550-grainers at 2160 fps. clap

That is more than enough for me in a .458 WinMag of 8-9 pounds birthday-suit weight.

I prefer bullets in the 400-500-grain range with modest pressures from 23-25" barrels, average about 24". tu2
All I desire from a .458 WinMag is this:
400-grainers at +2400 fps
450-grainers at +2300 fps
500-grainers at 2200 fps tops, +2200 not necessary, in fact, make that -2200 fps. rotflmo

Rip
.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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rem 798 458 win mag 26 inch barrel
71.5 gn aa2230 - 500 gn hornady solid
89 f 133 f
cold hot avg
2,175 2,180 5
2,165 2,189 24
2,188 2,193 5
2,170 2,195 25
2,156 2,182 26

2,171 2,188 17

that's the raw data some only 5 fps max 26 average 17 so

no compression


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
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aa 2230 powder
grains 550 woodleigh solid on this run
p gn 1 2
69 2,074 2,074
70 2,089 2,092
71 2,114 2,121
72 2,134 2,130
73 2,162 2,152

fed 215 primer

could add more powder and-- may be-- go on up

just not me --had just about enough of this-- by now

TOP TWO 69 GRAINS AA 2230
ONE GRAIN INCREMENTS
MAX 73 GRAINS BOTTOM

I DON'T SEE MUCH PRESSURE DO YOU GUYS




ENOUGH RECOIL THAT THE GUARD SCREWS WALKED A BIT REQUIRED SNUGGLING UP

WILL PULL THE STOCK TOMORROW AND LOOK FOR CRACKS

STOCK GUN NO GLASSING IN AS OF YET

KNOCKED THE COVER OFF THE FRONT SIGHT

THE REFLEX SIGHT JUMPED OFF THE BASE

SO WAS AN ACTIVE SHOOT FOR SURE


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
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stradling,

Loosening the screws in a gun is a sure sign of recoil.
"I used to do that to a Marlin 1895 45-70."

Big Grin (Aside: That is a different form of the joke, "I used to go with a girl who said/did that ..." which is the punch line you deliver after any comment made by anyone. Try it.
A Master Seargent in the USAF taught me that one at Whiteman AFB, MO.
Then he taught me how to duck hunt in Red Ball chest waders.) Big Grin


I do not see any brass extrusion or shiny spots on the headstamps. No pressure signs eh?
It looks great.
2-shot average for 73 grains AA-2230 and 550-gr Woodie = 2157 fps
26" barrel?
BOOM


You keep this up and you will soon be more than anecdotal. Getting statistically significant now.
tu2
quote:
Originally posted by stradling:
rem 798 458 win mag 26 inch barrel
71.5 gn aa2230 - 500 gn hornady solid
89 f 133 f
cold hot avg
2,175 2,180 5
2,165 2,189 24
2,188 2,193 5
2,170 2,195 25
2,156 2,182 26

2,171 2,188 17

that's the raw data some only 5 fps max 26 average 17 so

no compression


That's a lot easier to interpret.
I am double checking my math too, using a calculator instead of my head. Wink

TII = dv/dt = (2188 - 2171)fps/(133 - 89)*F = (17 fps)/(44 *F) = 0.39 fps/*F

A TII of 0.39 is the best I have ever heard of.

Of course the term TII was only just today invented on this thread.
But AA-2230 in the .458 WinMag is still the best performance in that regard that I know of.
I did not think that was possible with a ball powder.
Must have something to do with the mojo of the .458 WinMag. holycow

Rip
.
 
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