THE ACCURATERELOADING.COM BIG BORE FORUMS

Page 1 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... 234

Moderators: GeorgeS
Go
New
Find
Notify
Tools
Reply
  
458 winchester magnum Login/Join
 
one of us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by stradling:
RIp
clean that mess up or it's going to get out of hand

Too late for that ...
rotflmo
Rip
.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of Cold Trigger Finger
posted Hide Post
Awesome. Those gun rooms .
And I would be willing to bet that he didn't have to do anything to the feeding. My first Stainless crf Ruger in 338 fed so slick in 338 Win mag that until I got used to it , I would often open the bolt to check . Sure enuf , there would be a fresh round in the chamber. . Ruger 338 win mags all seem to feed like water flowing from a faucet.


Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle."
 
Posts: 1934 | Location: Eastern Central Alaska | Registered: 15 July 2014Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of Cold Trigger Finger
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Atkinson:
Well I respectively suggest that any .458 load that has a muzzle velocity of 2100 FPS is compacted by 6 to as much as 12% or perhaps more. So exactly what does HOrnady have to say about the specific "Load Density" of your loads.

Truly the 458 Win. is not, and never has been an efficient caliber..Will it kill an elephant, of course it will, and its a do-able round but lets not call it something its not and never will be..Lets just call it a pretty good round when handloaded, but in the heat of Africa it has has some problems, and its always been held in suspicion by some and not others. All I can say is don't load it too hot and don't leave on the hood of your bakie..

Other than that we will probably have to agree to disagree..


Sir Ray ; I guess I've always gone by those that used it to great effect. And my own results. Ease of use . All around usefulness. And it never let me down yet.


Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle."
 
Posts: 1934 | Location: Eastern Central Alaska | Registered: 15 July 2014Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of stradling
posted Hide Post
QUOTE I [ shrapnel] used to go into the Powder horn Sporting Goods store here in Bozeman and look at the animals mounted there and talk to old George Dieruf. He had killed most of the big game in Africa at one time or another.
When we were discussing his favorite DG gun, a 458 Winchester Magnum, he compared it to the 460 Weatherby Magnum in these terms...
"I have shot clear through a rhinoceros with a 458 Winchester magnum, all a 460 Weatherby will do is hit the ground harder on the other side."
I have never owned one, but his endorsement would certainly have my attention on the off-chance I should buy one.
I love how people like George had a way with words and descriptive command of the English language. I would say he was a real fan of the 458.



you see the problem is that to many hunters get emotionally involved with a caliber. if, like you mentioned you confront them with simple logic, they either accept it or get emotional and defend their caliber against their better judgement.

this is only human and is usually sorted out in the bush the first time one sees the buffalo for real.



Welcome to the thread Staley

I THINK YOU MIGHT BE IN TROUBLE – REAL TROUBLE
That’s kind of how it started with the rest of us, one 458, few test shots, wow not so bad

Now you are headed down a rat hole
The 375 kicks hard if you don’t keep an eye on it so will your 458 win mag so watch em both
That there rifle you got is exactly why the 450 Watts short is what it is – is where it is – how it happened-and spread across the world when it did and why it’s the working man’s go to gun don’t mater the language locals speak

World war 2 battle rifle take off, twist on a pipe with the .458 hole in it, tune up the feeding of short cigar shaped bullets

Wala you have got yourself a murder machine

Try that with a lott longer carriage not as simple not if you want it to feed
Then there is the ‘’short stroke problem’’ the win mag does not have one

RIP

Just saying -Looking back wish I had, had the foresight to hold on to that 303 custom by [Hack-Saw & Horse-Rasp Co.] with the 10 round clip

Would mean something to me now days looking back from this grand yet unpredictable, yes even magical, journey through the boreal rainforest, windswept deserts and tropical jungles of life.

All metaphors for mad women, reckless business deals, guns that didn’t shoot, and crashed airplanes.

ALL, for the most part, pretty much, ABSOLUTE Pilot error. Still it’s been on balance one hell of an adventure

Like a horse that can't stand prosperity I tried out the south pacific beach, soft wind, palm trees waving, rum punch, quickly discovering that I attract far too much trouble sitting around waiting for the rocks to cool the gin best to pick up that 303 and get to work killing something


I find some memorabilia leaning up against the wall sweetens up the memory’s some Good some not quite exactly excellent
that 303 British really the only gun I was ever any good with
was a keeper I made a mistake letting that little lady get away, should not have done that, know that now, too late for me, she is not coming back, anytime soon,ever

and this gal helped -still- did not make me forget the first one we went places, did things, not always talked about



just saying if it was me I would keep the dam gun


besides some things are best done with a 458 take one you trust and kinda like

still running around trying to make up for it things like sticking odd ball 10 round clips on 458 win mags



a shrink might comment-- it looks like small man syndrome to me - shrink could have a point

left to right
577 N.E.-- 50-140 SHARPS-- 510 WEATHERBY BY WELLS-- 460 WBY-- LOTT --WIN MAG

I FIND THE 460 WORKS-- BUT A LITTLE LIGHT-- IF YOU WANT TO BE SURE THE 510 IS THE WAY TO GO

IT WILL REQUIRE A BIT MORE RECOIL TOLERANCE HOWEVER SO


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
This thread is turning into the Ulyses of accuratereloading.com and stradling is the James Joyce channeler. Wink

I am going to build two 450 Watts Short rifles on standard length actions,
for standard .458 WinMag-A loads,
and two 450 Watts Short rifles on long actions,
for long-nose loads,.458 WinMag-B&C.

I have finally seen the light.
The .458 Lott just fouls the feeding and decreases the efficiency of a rifle.
Will start with that Pre-'64 M70 Winchester that went from 30-06 to 300 WinMag.

A little gem for the 450 Watts Short Literary Club:
**********************************************

DO NOT GO GENTLE INTO THAT GOOD NIGHT

Dylan Thomas

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rage at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
**********************************************

Do not go gentle, go 450 Watts Short!

old
Rip
.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
Thanks for the welcome, Stradling. I can see what you mean about trouble. I've been eyeing this 1953 model 70 in the useless caliber 270 Win that I've had for several years....it is righty tightly, lefty loosely isn't it? I've got enough tools and all I'd need I'd a finish reamer...hmmmm. Even have two or three M70 stocks and a stock through bolt kit, steel bedding left over from a M14 accurizeing...gotta go!
 
Posts: 421 | Location: Wyoming/ Idaho, St Joe river | Registered: 17 November 2005Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of stradling
posted Hide Post
quote:
James Joyce channeler


one of the greatest literary works ever written

BEST WE MOVE THINGS UP TO THE 700 N.E. FEEDING THE DOUBLE RIFLE

RIP looks like Staley based on this recent post and as those of us that have run a 458 fervor know

he is presenting with classic symptoms, not much anyone can do to help him, he is all gone, it over for him


Staley -----------you have absolutely got me there --------

there was never, and never ever again, will there ever be a gun, ever produced, more useless than the 270 winchester


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
Yep, Staley is pretty far gone, well and truly ...
A Pre-'64 M70 from 1953 in 270 WCF is an excellent donor for a 450 Watts Short. tu2

Ulysses, by James Joyce:
I don't own it, just checked it out at the library and swear I puzzled over every page.
Just like stradling free-associations. tu2

Some say Crime and Punishment was a great book, and might be a better book-analogy for this thread,
but Fyodor Dostoevsky just did not have the right style.
archer

Short Man Syndrome: Yep I suffer from it.
Thanks for the cartridge line-up photo.
Some plans that just went to the end of the line behind the 450 Watts Shorts:

1. Screw the 34" barrel off of a Pedersoli Sharps 1874 "Long Range" 50-70 Govt
(an oxymoron if there ever was one)
and screw it back onto a Ruger No.1,
and have it chambered for 50-140 Winchester-Sharps 3-1/4".

2. Then that Pedersoli Sharps 1874 "Short Range"
will get a 20-Guage 3-1/2" Verney Carron fully-rifled barrel screwed onto it,
plus a big, fat, muzzle brake.
BOOM

However, they are mere stunt rifles compared to the 450 Watts Short.

Rip
.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of stradling
posted Hide Post
Back to business

The woodleigh 550 softs came in today much shorter than the solids





may get velocity out of this one


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
Oh yeah!

It will feed better too. tu2

Much more handloader friendly bullet, but still gives me a flinch just looking at the pictures of it,
involuntary trigger finger spasms accompanied by head jerks.
A tic of sorts.
Makes me want to go shoot a .22 to unwind after just looking at it.
Thanks for sharing.
popcorn
Rip
. tu2
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of stradling
posted Hide Post
we will part the woodleighs to see what the innards look like

monday I will post a photo of both solid and soft next to the hornady's soft solid in 500 grain


what we might ask about the 458 win mag

Is it possible to get 505 gibbs terminal ballistics so a stopping rifle effect [IF YOU EVER EVEN REALLY NEEDED IT ]

THE PARAMETERS OF THE RIFLE DESIGN REVIEWED

we are testing only one powder in this run, to demonstrate to us, for us, that a rifle with a 22 inch tube can obtain velocities in the range of 2150 launching 500 grain hornady softs and solids

and that the impact point will be consistent between the two bullets

we are preferential to a load that is not compressed. yields velocity north of 2100 with 500 grain hunting bullets. can take hot sun and or a hot barrel. and not stick the bolt

easy to load. so no drop tube. and or extra crimp issues effort



THE END GAME

preliminary shooting indicates that all the conditions listed above can be met further shooting will be required to unequivocally validate all this for a dangerous game foolproof firearm

first we need to fit up and build a rifle to run the pilot work the proof of concept and offer to folks as a demonstration of design

ATTRACTIVE FEATURES

for someone to step up and pay the premium that a custom build demands it must have a full package of full functioning features that make sense to the seasoned hunter be he outfitter or client

what is compelling

current thinking is

a 8.5 -10.5 pound CRF rifle

5 down with flexibility to feed reliably

550 woodleigh solid soft
500 hornady solid soft
450 hornady solid soft
350 monolithic barnes elk bear moose loads
256 high velocity multi use utility loads

CUSTOM IRON SIGHT BASE a dual function base accommodating a standard v rear sight with a modern reflex sight compatible mounting option

we are considering 2 reflex systems the leupold delta with the red triangle feature and the trigicon with the delta aiming point [ we favor the precision and durability afforded by both products]

QUICK RELEASE REFLEX SIGHT because it is a fast point shoot aiming system and it is very forgiving to old men with limited focus ability

one man one gun all round hunting rifle

If a man only has ONLY one gun

beware more than likly he knows how to shoot it

[kind of a thing]



the 17 x bottom medal came in yesterday and we examined it to see to the next issue

5 down and 1 in the tube so a gun packing 6

the 550 woodleigh solids were loaded up with aa 2230 powder so we tried 5 down looks positive

will need to thin the box trim here cut out there

but hell it looks like it's a fit SO THAT WAS GOOD

THIS RIFLE AIN'T GOING TO BE A START OUT WITH A GRANITE MOUNTAIN ACTION THAT STARTS AS A PART AT $3,500 first piece only --- no wood yet, no bottom metal, no barrel yet

back to the basics

a take off battle rifle in the large ring action --standard rather than large--- m 98 class $300 for a good

one so 1/10 th for that part

something a working PH can afford done up such that he can trust it

when I comission mine it will be possible to use a left hand zastava standard action

so I have an ax to sharpen in this enterprise that's my cut in all this

TAKING YOUR POINT SERIOUSLY RIP

THE 577 NE AND THE 22 SHORT DOUBLE RIFLES

IDEAL PAIR TO TAKE RANGING



Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of Cold Trigger Finger
posted Hide Post
There's a way to make those 550s shootable AND so they don't tear up stocks. Even at 2100 fps. Remember , Barnes used to make 600 gr 458 bullets.
All ya need is a good muzzle brake.
A Harrel's Tactical break with the open window side ports and top holes should be ideal. No bottom ports!
The break on the Spruce King is ok. But could be better. I'm planning on replacing it with a Harrel's.


Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle."
 
Posts: 1934 | Location: Eastern Central Alaska | Registered: 15 July 2014Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of Cold Trigger Finger
posted Hide Post
Honestly, that 400 gr GSC HV. Is about the perfect bullet. Except for Elephant and maybe hippo. For me. I'm too much of a meat hunter to try those 250ish gr bullets. I've killed small deer at around 300 yards from a kneeling position with the 350 gr X bullet. For my use. The 300 or 350 is ideal.


Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle."
 
Posts: 1934 | Location: Eastern Central Alaska | Registered: 15 July 2014Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of stradling
posted Hide Post
CTF

The New Rules

The GS Custom concept of drive bands, from which grooved bullets got their origin, is enough of a departure from the norm, that it requires an open mind to fully evaluate all of the aspects. There are several traditional theories that are seriously challenged by the new set of rules that has evolved as a result of the GSC drive band concept. This evolution, since 1993, has proven conclusively that higher speeds and or lower pressures are obtained with HV. Tests done at the Somchem Ballistic Proof Laboratory in March 2000, yielded the following facts.

1. A 40 grain HV bullet was tested in a 223 Remington. At a pressure level of 382 Mpa, which is 48 Mpa below the CIP maximum, a velocity of 3834 fps was achieved. This is 200 fps faster than previously possible with Somchem powder.
2. A 110 grain HV bullet from a 270 Winchester barrel, exceeded previously accepted maximums by more than 100 fps.
3. A comparative test done with identical components, under strict laboratory conditions, with two popular competitive 150 grain 30 caliber bullets versus the GS Custom HV, confirmed that higher speeds can be achieved with HV bullets than any other type.
4. Loading GS Custom bullets, seated against the lands of the barrel, did not raise pressure levels as is the case with conventional bullets.
5. Velocity consistency as a result of uniform quality, was significantly above the industry average and comparable to the best target and bench rest bullets.
6. The HV concept works best with propellant charges that fill the case completely, and with bullets that are traditionally light for a given calibre.

GS Custom HV, SP and HP bullets are designed to give the lowest possible total air drag in flight, that is possible for a given caliber. Coupled to the fact that they are turned from pure copper, these bullets are on average 20% longer than jacketed lead bullets of similar weight. The result is a range of bullets with ballistic coefficients comparable to the heavier bullets, but with the speed advantage of lighter bullets. The HV, HP and FN designs are refined to give reliable terminal performance over a wider velocity range with the best balance between expansion and weight retention. Every bullet make and type has a window of application - a speed range within which the bullet performs best, terminally. With GSC expanding bullets you are given the widest possible window.

GS Custom drive band bullets have the following advantages:

Load development is simplified - GSC drive band bullets are not speed sensitive for grouping
Copper fouling is reduced to levels not previously possible. Barrel and throat life is more than doubled and barrels run cooler.
Due to the mono metal construction, terminal performance is enhanced and bullet failure due to complete fracture is eliminated.
Less wind drift - The two factors that control wind drift, BC and velocity, are maximised.
Trajectories are flatter, making range estimation less critical.
Time of flight is reduced. Even if an animal moves unexpectedly as the shot breaks, the point of impact will be closer to the mark.
Momentum and energy levels are elevated, enhancing terminal performance over a wider range of distances and speeds.
Meat damage is confined to the bullet path and bone fragment damage is also reduced, putting more meat in the freezer.

Having said all this, as well as all the information on the other HV pages, bear in mind that there is no such thing as the magic bullet. All we can promise is that, if you place the bullet properly, GS Custom HV bullets will give you the best possible shot.



management requests of me to ask of you

a recommendation for

a take it to work with you every day

good bear load

we want to test it and make dam sure it will feed along with all the rest of em

the velocity achievable with little or no compression driving a 550 woodleigh solid is for us in this rifle yet to be determined

no question there will be excessive recoil issues to resolve with that one

we can bed, pillar, reinforce and beef up the stock so that it will stand up to violent at leaste heavy recoil

have not a single clue what we are going to do to fortify the shooter

Cutting Edge Bullets

458 cal



Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of stradling
posted Hide Post


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
cool beans
wanna see the 550-gr woodleigh soft and solid results
just got my 22-250 Tikka 3X 8" twist varminter zeroed at 200 yards today
hitting 6-inch steel gong at 300 yards is too easy
wanna do same with .450 Watts Short aka .458 WinMag-A
stopped in at local emporium and bought another pound of Accurate-2230 today
and some .224"/70-grain TSX,
and a set of RCBS .458 WinMag dies
to go with the Redding and Lee .458 WinMag dies on hand
Rip
.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of stradling
posted Hide Post


this is an early fabrication we put on a m 70 to mount a reflex sight low

the new one will be out on the barrel carbon steel co witness w the rear sight [ sort of we think ] detachable so if it fails you can go back to iron]




I have the 550 s all loaded up RIP

have had for couple of days

there are a hat full of excuses why no one can get to the range to shoot

monsoon time rainy days we are holding out for a hot day to shoot the second test of the heated bullets

throw the woodlieghs on as an afterthought

just so you don't get any wild ideas RIP there is not a recoil shy fellow on the whole crew over here we shoot em all 505 gibbs 500 jeff's stuff like the 505 cheytac at 32oo fps and big double rifles

which is why we have a commercial size can of headache pills right next to the ear plug tub

infact I think we would have em all shot up by now and be moving on if you had not told us all about the day Anderson broke his finger

how did that happen how did he do that one more time I have kinda forgot the details


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of Quickstrike
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by RIP:

The .458 Lott just fouls the feeding and decreases the efficiency of a rifle.



quote:
Oh yeah!

It will feed better too. tu2

Much more handloader friendly bullet, but still gives me a flinch just looking at the pictures of it,
involuntary trigger finger spasms accompanied by head jerks.
A tic of sorts.
Makes me want to go shoot a .22 to unwind after just looking at it.
Thanks for sharing.
popcorn
Rip
. tu2


So how does a 458 Lott feed worse than a 458 Win mag, if you seat bullets out on the shorter case to equal overall cartridge lengths? Confused sofa
 
Posts: 68 | Location: Colorado | Registered: 05 April 2013Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of Cold Trigger Finger
posted Hide Post
Normal load . . Max book of H4198 350 gr TSX lrm primed. I recommend tumbling in HBN. 2nd load would be max book of Accurate 2230. With the same bullet and primer. They will give you around 2550 fps. I've never been able to keep them in a bear. Never recovered one yet.
The other bullet would be a GSC HV of a similar weight.


Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle."
 
Posts: 1934 | Location: Eastern Central Alaska | Registered: 15 July 2014Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of stradling
posted Hide Post
thanks much

now for the gps of where watts lost his pistol

next time you go for a walk take a pic

we all want to see the creek and just up the hill place

see how far the bear made it


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Quickstrike:
quote:
Originally posted by RIP:

The .458 Lott just fouls the feeding and decreases the efficiency of a rifle.



quote:
Oh yeah!

It will feed better too. tu2

Much more handloader friendly bullet, but still gives me a flinch just looking at the pictures of it,
involuntary trigger finger spasms accompanied by head jerks.
A tic of sorts.
Makes me want to go shoot a .22 to unwind after just looking at it.
Thanks for sharing.
popcorn
Rip
. tu2


So how does a 458 Lott feed worse than a 458 Win mag, if you seat bullets out on the shorter case to equal overall cartridge lengths? Confused sofa



hahaha that is an easy one
the case taper is to same case mouth diameter over a shorter distance on the .458 WinMag
than on the .458 Lott
so the .458 WinMag absolutely will have a slight feeding advantage over the Lott
no two ways about it
.458 WinMag feeds slicker than a .458 Lott if both are used in a 3.6" box length

.458 WinMag-B is a slicker feeder and ballistically equals or minutely betters the .458 Lott due to throat differences
when both are used in 3.6"-box-length rifles
period

as to the other feeding issue
whether in WinMag or Lott .458
the longer and blunter-shaped nose of the Woodleigh .458/550-gr FMJ solid is going to be harder to get to feed well than the .458/550-gr soft
and the soft is going to allow more powder space
for higher top speed

Now, what to do with that pesky .458 Lott brass?



Rip
.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
stradling,

How about a fun bullet?
Busters are primarily designed for handgun and lever-action rifles,
but might add some "diversity" to the .458 WinMag. Cool
Not too expensive, and can be used as a backup to the GSC HV .458/400-grainer.
About a dollar a bullet, so not exactly a plinker,
but a good tough bullet.
Get .416 Rigby ballistics instead of .505 Gibbs ballistics
now and then to keep from developing a shooter's tic. tu2



https://www.cheaperthandirt.co...ains-716876458844.do

Features and Specifications:
Manufacturer Number: 30644
Caliber: .45-70 Government
Bullet Type: Flat-Nose, Flat-Base
Bullet Weight: 400 Grains
Rounds: 50
Bullet Diameter: .458
Bullet Ballistic Coefficient: 0.242
Sectional Density: 0.272
Length: 1.079
Features:
* Jacket Material: Thick Copper
* Core Material: Lead
* Bullet Tip Material: Copper Flat Nose
* Cannelure: Yes

I sectioned one of those before the pretty picture from CheaperThanDirt (above) was found:



Measured that bullet and weighed 10 others of them (intact) myself:



The nose and base of two of them standing on the glass top of a scanner:



Same bullets lying on their sides on scanner glass:



Only one cannelure on my older version, but I would probably add a third cannelure to the ones that already have two cannelures,
using the nifty CH4D Can-Tool:







I use that tool to add cannelures for my .510-caliber wildcats and the 400 Whelen-B 3.6" COL:



I am going to be using that tool more often now,
for the .450 Watts Short-A, B, and C. tu2

Rip
.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of Cold Trigger Finger
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by stradling:
thanks much

now for the gps of where watts lost his pistol

next time you go for a walk take a pic

we all want to see the creek and just up the hill place

see how far the bear made it



That may take a bit. First, I need to buy a GPS.
I've been able to talk myself out of it for the past 18 years when I gave a good friend my Magellan that I had in my bartender.
Then I need to get enough time off work to drive up to Black Rapids. Which pretty much means taking my wife to dinner in Delta. Which pretty well includes a hotel stay in Delta. So , that means 2 days off work with the same days off as my wife.
So. It'll be a bit before I get to the first crik north of Black Rapids Lodge. ;-)


Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle."
 
Posts: 1934 | Location: Eastern Central Alaska | Registered: 15 July 2014Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of stradling
posted Hide Post
550 woodleigh left 500 hornady right


trijicon reflex down on the barrel where it belongs in the both eyes open scout configuration



tip of the spear put the point on the spot light the fuze and things will fall down



that's not a dangerous game trigger

this is a DG TRIGGER



THE DELTA POINT LEUPOLD IS NICE AND PETITE







LEAN LONG AND JUST HAS THAT LOOK

SMALL STEPS TO GETTING IT JUST RIGHT

NOT AS SIMPLE AS IT LOOKS


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of Cold Trigger Finger
posted Hide Post
Looking good !
Quite a good amount of steel in those 550 Woodleigh's .


Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle."
 
Posts: 1934 | Location: Eastern Central Alaska | Registered: 15 July 2014Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of stradling
posted Hide Post
guess what's next old man

as soon as I get my hat and my ass together

going to see if I can burn in the barrel of a 458

hoping for 2500 plus fps w aa2230 running a 350 hard with a hole in it



Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of Cold Trigger Finger
posted Hide Post
2500 fps is easy pie with a 350 X in the 458. Could prolly even do it with an 18" barrel.
Even tho the Barnes #4 doesn't show it. 458. The Lee manual shows78 gr of 2230 being max with a 350 gr jacketed. For 2512 fps. And with Accurate 2015 BR it shows 75 gr being max for 2557 fps.
The Barnes #3 manual doesn't list 2230 with any 458 Winchester data. Which is dumb as a box of rocks. However , it does list 4 powders with The 600 gr Original soft nose bullet. They are all running around 2000 fps + with that bullet.
The #3 manual is the last time they made the 400 gr X bullet. I really liked That bullet ! I've recovered them from wood where they were expanded to .98" diameter. Course that was at 5' distance.
In fact , in the #3 manual, Phil wrote the foreward to the 458 Winchester Magnum .


Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle."
 
Posts: 1934 | Location: Eastern Central Alaska | Registered: 15 July 2014Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of stradling
posted Hide Post
This Phil ?

[quote barnes reloading manual #3



Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of Cold Trigger Finger
posted Hide Post
Yup. Our very own 458Win.


Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle."
 
Posts: 1934 | Location: Eastern Central Alaska | Registered: 15 July 2014Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
Good work men!

I am missing the 2nd edition of the Barnes Reloading Manual, have the other three.
We sorely need 5th edition.

Interesting about the .458/400-grain XFB-Cannelured that Phil praised so highly,
but Barnes did not upgrade that 400-grain weight to multi-cannelured TSX, Confused
but there are 350, 450, and 500-grain TSXs,
last time I checked.
I reckon that is where the 400-grain GSC HV,
North Forks, and 400-grain Barnes Buster come in. tu2

Printing and filing this thread for posterity,
I found some old data from what must have been my earliest big-bore chronographing,
the .458 WinMag in March 1988 at the Izaak Walton League range, near Eagle River, AK.

I was using the 24"-barreled Whitworth MkX in the ugly stock.
This was before it got mutilated,
rechambered to .458 Lott circa 1993,
box lengthened to 3.6" circa 2005.

In 1988 I was calling her "Warthog" and she was SAAMI .458 WinMag with 3.4" box,
and all COLs of loads below were 3.340" or less.
The 350-grain and 400-grain bulleted loads used Remington-Peters (RP) brass.
The 500-grain load used Winchester-Western (WW) brass.
Primer was F-215 for all three loads,
Chronographed at 5 yards, only 3-shot averages,
good enough for me back then,
wouldn't be now: Cool

************************************************


24-Inch Barrel Length:
March 1988, 38 degrees F, balmy for Alaska:

350-grain Hornady RNSP, BC = 0.189, added 23 fps to correct to MV:
68.0 grains IMR-4198 >>> MV = 2528 fps

400-grain Barnes Original SSP, BC = 0.389, added 11 fps to correct to MV:
68.0 grains IMR-4198 >>> MV = 2402 fps

500-grain Hornady RNSP, BC = 0.287, added 14 fps to correct to MV:
71.0 grains IMR-3031 >>> MV = 2169 fps



************************************************

The 400-grain load loosened primer pockets.
The other two loads were excellent.

That 500-grain load was very accurate in my Remington M700 BDL .458 WinMag (without 10-round magazine),
used to kill a cow moose for 600-pounds of delicious meat. tu2

So here is Warthog who was chronographed in 1988 as a SAAMI .458 WinMag,
the beefy breech knoxform could stand bobbing,
very well, won't even get her down to a featherweight contour:



I am going to have her barrel threads cut off and have her re-chambered to SAAMI .458 WinMag.
The 3.6" box will be OK.
Losing less than an inch of barrel length will be more than compensated by the better powders and bullets now.
She'll be faster than ever,
and a hair under 8 pounds without the muzzlebrake. tu2

Those steel Weaver bases are 8x40-ed
and the front one might serve to attach a reflex sight like stradling is so fond of.
I might have to get the Burris Fast-Fire off the Glock 40 and try it for starters,
until I can get a Leupold Delta Point. tu2

I gotta finish up some .410/404 JRNE loads before Warthog gets fed again. She is NPO until her surgery.

Rip
.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of stradling
posted Hide Post
Rip

this is one on a 9.3 74 double

its up on the quarter rib

not as low as one might want it



red dot and not good with a red front bead

makes you see 2 red spots

works ok but a bit too far back

will show you one on a combo 9.3 x 74 under the 12 gauge rabbit hunting gun

that one has a burris fast fire on er

cut out in the quarter rip keeps it low



the dots are not as good at 100 yds as the delta points

that's why we like the red delta point

even though its 400 usd in the leupold



and the green delta point in the trijicon which runs more money than that



and if by chance you are a scope man

the trijicon 1-4 with the post holding up the deltapoint green

well that's a touch and kill set up

have it on a 375 ruger have it on a bar 338 win mag

trust me it works really fast quite good

friend of mine has something just like that on a 416 rigby it works excellent on that one as well

the trigicon scope w post and delta point lit up runs right at 800 usd so non of this stuff is cheap but it works enough better to be worth the money

we even tried the cheap 30- 100 china amazon offerings

recoil caused a lot of them to come apart one or 2 have not failed

a couple of the less costly version are on the test rifles

expect them to fail before the shooting is all done

if one stands up will let you know which one

still cheap reflex not the way to go on a dangerous game rifle

this one [the vortex] is ok in fact good

so is the burris fast fire

always wanted to try the pistol systems

never have think they might work


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
Gotta Trijicon 1.25-4x24mm-1"-tubed with orange triangle reticle.
Love it on Ruger Hawkeye or AR-type rifles.
It would be ideal on anything, i.e., .450 Watts Short-B Warthog. tu2

Also have a Sightron SIII 1-7x24mm-30mm-tubed scope with illuminated dot/duplex reticle, red or green.
That tube is long enough to span three rings on a 10.5-lbs MRC M1999 PH .408 Chey-Tac.
Too bulky for a handy .458 WinMag.

We have options, including the indestructible Leupold 2.5x20mm Ultralight.
That is what the Warthog usually wears.
tu2
Rip
.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of Cold Trigger Finger
posted Hide Post
The problem I had with the 2.5 power Lupold was the reticle is blanket blank useless on a nice pouring down rain late afternoon on a wet bear or deer in the brush. I could see the animals . could NOT see the crosshairs on the animal.
I got tired of getting upper cutted in my right cheek bone by the comb of the stocks And holding my thumb weird to pack my rifle around sucks. So I mount my scopes as high as I can so I shoot in a heads up position. .


Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle."
 
Posts: 1934 | Location: Eastern Central Alaska | Registered: 15 July 2014Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of stradling
posted Hide Post
I have never been comfortable with how a reflex sight could work in alaska new zealand or such

never dealt with the waterproof issue in a pouring rain or a 2 day drizzle which is most likely worse

but the trijicon scope w lit up post is a possibility up your way CTF

I flubbed a shot at a spike elk one morning at first light at 50 yards

just like you descrip old eyes could not see anything in the scope but the elk


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of Cold Trigger Finger
posted Hide Post
I have the Vortex Crossfire ll 1-4×24 30mm on the 9.3×64 that I'm thinking about putting on the Spruce King. And putting a 1-4 Viper PST on the 9.3 . the Cf2 has red illuminated floating center dot. It's water,fog and shock proof. Hopefully it will hold up. It has under cover turrets. For a 458 the illuminated center dot is FAST on target. I just wish it had a shorter eye piece. The fast focus reticle is very nice. It's nice and bright and clear. Sucks in a good amount of light.


Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle."
 
Posts: 1934 | Location: Eastern Central Alaska | Registered: 15 July 2014Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
Some of us primitives with equipment from the previous century have made do,
like with a Leupold 2.5x.
It is like McDonalds food, dependable level of quality wherever you go.
At least it is there and working flawlessly for what it does.

McDonalds: Best mainly for coffee and a place to pee.

Leupold: Sometimes you just center the hair in the 2.5X peep.
Sometimes you just point and shoot, instinctive, who needs a sight anyway. Wink

stradling,



I bet you could make good use of some labels in the future works.



I just found the "Advanced" editing at the same place on Imgur where you re-size the photos.
Same software was used at Photopucker.
Difference is Imgur works so much faster and more reliably.
Just as an illustration, above is a "written-on" photo of a Ruger No.1 project dummy
that will have to wait in line behind the .450 Watts Shorts, A, B, and C.

Highjack:
Very interesting that the brass S&H .510/535gr FN is same length as the Hoch .512/680gr cast bullet.
I think I bought Jay's entire remaining supply of those,
about the time he quit making bullets.
It's no doubt a tough business.
S&H made tough bullets for a while.
The meplat is too big to feed well in a bolt-action.
It will smack hard and penetrate straight from a Ruger No.1.
Highjack off.

Pilgrim, CTF, when I make it back to Alaska I will visit the crick north of Black Rapids Lodge also.
Carve your initials on a Spruce,
if there are any big enough at that elevation,
or on a boulder near the crick.
I'll add to the shrine when I get there.
beer
Rip
.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of Cold Trigger Finger
posted Hide Post
I'll get there, sometime , Lord willing . I actually wish there was something for me to make a living with up in that area. I don't think there is any gold to speak of around there. I did meet a young lady that grew up on a homestead in that area. A producing mine would be about the only way to make it nowadays with far more reliable vehicles , tires and much better highways. They pretty much put the road houses out of business. I'll keep an extra sharp eye peeled for a grizzly to pop when I'm there.


Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle."
 
Posts: 1934 | Location: Eastern Central Alaska | Registered: 15 July 2014Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of Jiri
posted Hide Post
RIP

Who made that S&H bullets? Can't find any website or so.

Thank you,
Jiri
 
Posts: 1823 | Location: Czech Republic | Registered: 22 May 2002Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of stradling
posted Hide Post
RECOIL FROM 550 BULLET TO 350 BULLET

ON THE LEFT A 9 # GUN ON THE RIGHT A 10 # RIFLE




FRAMING THE ISSUES-- AROUND BULLETS, VELOCITY AND---- STOPPING RIFLE ENERGY---

SPOT DATA

505 GIBBS 525 gn bullet velocity 2250

ENERGY 5,943

LOWEST SD ''ISSUE FOR PENETRATION''

458 WIN MAG 550 GN BULLET VELOCITY 2100

ENERGY 5427

SD BEST OF THE 3 LISTED HERE

458 WIN MAG 500 GN BULLET VELOCITY 2344

ENERGY 6150

SD HIGHER THAN THE 505 GIBBS



JUST THE FACTS MA'AM, JUST THE FACTS

THIS IS A USEFUL COMPARISON TO GRASP

AS WE THINK ABOUT THINGS 458 WIN MAG

IS IT ENOUGH GUN, CAN I SHOOT IT, DO I NEED IT ALL HOPPED UP, WHAT IS ITS OUTSIDE/ UPSIDE POTENTIAL

IF I EVER EVEN NEEDED IT

SO ONE ARGUMENT MIGHT BE == COULD BE

IF I CAN'T-- WILL NOT-- DON'T REALLY NEED TO-- USE EVERYTHING HERE

WELL THEN WHAT'S THE TRUE ADVANTAGE OF THE LOTT OVER THE 458 WIN MAG

FOR ME IT NEEDS TO BE SOMETHING MORE THAT

BRAGGING RIGHTS --I'VE GOT A BIGGER GUN-- OR YA REALLY CAN'T GET ER DONE WITH A WATTS 450 SHORT





Macifej last post on this forum april 7 2017

Jay Schroeder

RIP'S POST

550 woodleigh next to the macfije 577

"macifej" was the ar.com handle of the mastermind of S&H bullets.
There is no better bullet than S&H, some may be as good, but none better.
They were usually monometal brass, the finest machining extant. tu2

SCHROEDER & HETZENDORFER LLC
8865 Spectrum Center Blvd # 9314
San Diego, CA 92123
Phone: (858) 245-4762

THIS MAY BE THE WAY TO JAY

if you get a bullet from his machinery

well -- you have got one very well made

with a little intelligence thrown in for good measure

RIP MAY HAVE AN EMAIL


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
The JBM calculators are handy, thanks for the reminder. tu2

For variety in loading, and effectiveness on game, Phil Shoemaker sure liked the .458/400gr XFB at one time.

With the old Barnes Original "SSSP" from the Western Powders manual:

.458/400-grainer at 2457 fps from a 24" barrel
80.0 grains of Accurate 2230, 53,690 PSI

Scope the Warthog and it will be about 9.0 pounds. JBM calculator:

9.0-pound Rifle:
***********************
Recoil Input Data
Charge Weight: 80.0 gr
Muzzle Velocity: 2457.0 ft/s
Firearm Weight: 9.0 lb
Bullet Weight: 400.0 gr
Output Data
Recoil Velocity: 21.6 ft/s
Recoil Energy: 65.1 ft•lbs
Recoil Impulse: 6.0 lb•s


10.0-pound Rifle:
************************
Recoil Input Data
Charge Weight: 80.0 gr Muzzle
Velocity: 2457.0 ft/s
Firearm Weight: 10.0 lb
Bullet Weight: 400.0 gr
Output Data:
Recoil Velocity: 19.4 ft/s
Recoil Energy: 58.6 ft•lbs
Recoil Impulse: 6.0 lb•s


Impulse of the load is same whatever the weight of the rifle, a good way to compare the thrust of the load:

550-grainer @ 2100 fps: 6.6 lb-sec
500-grainer @ 2150 fps: 6.3 lb-sec
400-grainer @ 2457 fps: 6.0 lb-sec
350-grainer @ 2503 fps: 5.5 lb-sec

Full speed ahead on impulse drive Scottie!

These are the voyages of the Star Ship .458 Winchester Magnum ...
space
Rip
.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
  Powered by Social Strata Page 1 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... 234 
 


Copyright December 1997-2021 Accuratereloading.com


Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia