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All great pictures Ron.
 
Posts: 7046 | Location: Sydney Australia | Registered: 14 September 2015Reply With Quote
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Mike,
Buy a donkey to you too.
Did you like the trees or the ammo porn better ?
I cannot decide which I like best.
That is one way to turn a page after several days of inactivity at THE MISSION.
Redeeming social value, in addition to chronographing in the "standard rifle," will come from pulling some bullets and measuring their lengths and noting the powder charges as to type and weights,
and whether compressed.
The DGX and DGS have been done previously,
the new ones here will be added to the dissection record.
patriot
.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
Nota bene: In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

The longer load plus higher pressure is a Lott of fun.
But three point three four and sixty thousand will get it done,
if the rifle is chambered for the four five eight Winchester.
Believe the Three Mahohbohs, or you're a monkey's sister.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Types of ammo was good.
 
Posts: 7046 | Location: Sydney Australia | Registered: 14 September 2015Reply With Quote
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Well I better get crackin' on dissecting that ammo.
Good to see that Rudy and Sidney have released the Cracken on the Democrat Damnation, eh ?
And BTW, the .458 WinM sabot loads could be loaded into the CVA Paramount .45-cal.
It can handle 105-gr weight of Blackhorn 209 under a 280-gr Powerbelt ELR with BC = 0.452 claimed by bullet maker
rotflmo
0.333 BC is claimed by CVA by testing, 20-MOA rail recommended,
for 2200 to 2350 fps and sub-MOA at 300 yards.
It has a 1:22" twist.
Uses CCI BR-2 latge rifle primers in the VariFlame priming method.

https://news.sportsmans.com/pr...g-range-muzzleloader

9.8 pounds dry weight.
Twist is just right for a .357"/158-gr FN in the MMP Blue Sabot at 1100 fps.
Look out squirrels,
the Muzzleloader Cracken is on the loose !






https://thebiggamehuntingblog.com/cva-paramount/

https://cva.com/wp-content/upl...PARAMOUNT-MANUAL.pdf



"While all black powder substitutes are safe to use in the CVA Paramount, CVA recommends two loads for the Paramount with the 280 grain PowerBelt ELR: 140 grains by volume (98 grains by weight) or 150 grains by volume (105 grains by weight) of Blackhorn 209.
CVA advertises these loads should produce velocities in the 2,200-2,350 fps range.
Note that while CVA does provide three loose powder tubes with volume markings on them, the company recommends carefully measuring powder loads by weight using a scale for the most precise measurement.
Interestingly enough, I was very consistently obtaining velocities right around 2,340 fps with an extreme spread of just 20 fps when using the lighter 140 grain by volume (98 grains by weight) load. Your results may vary though."


Funny how that is taking us back to the 1850s Whitworth system of .45-cal conical bullet and faster twist.
I bet we could use a sharpsguy-style 480-grainer pushed to accuracy by way less than 105-gr weight of Blackhorn 209 !
It picks up where the most refined muzzleloaders were interrupted by the breechloading cartridge rifles.
Everything old is new again.
Especially the .458 Winchester Magnum.
patriot
.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
Nota bene: In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

The longer load plus higher pressure is a Lott of fun.
But three point three four and sixty thousand will get it done,
if the rifle is chambered for the four five eight Winchester.
Believe the Three Mahohbohs, or you're a monkey's sister.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by RIP:

Good to see that Rudy and Sydney have released the Cracken on the Democrat Damnation, eh ?



Ron,

What do you think the outcome will be?

The question I keep asking is if it is all bullshit then why are Rudy and Sidney pushing on so hard. Maybe for Rudy it could be seen at age 76 as his chance to be in the action BUT Sidney is only 65 and she has gone all out.
 
Posts: 7046 | Location: Sydney Australia | Registered: 14 September 2015Reply With Quote
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Yes, correction on my spelling,
get the Kraken crackin' with Sidney Katherine Powell, born 1955.
What an exemplary human being, a genius, an honorable and most beautiful woman,
with the tenacity of a pit bull.

My prediction ?
It will take 4 weeks to blow the ship of fraud out of the water, before the Demonrats jump off.
They have been sailing on it for 4 years of attempted piracy of the USA.

My heart aches for all that President Trump has endured at their paws and jaws, yet he has somehow treaded the rat turds with head high, and survived.
He will have a second term.
Damn the rats !

The only thing absurd about this is the opinions of the evil cabal concocted against President Trump.
They had to smoke a lot of cannabis laced with their own rat turds to get so psychotic and stupid.

Sort of reminds me of the Lottite Commercial Cabal and the .458 Winchester Magnum.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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The six factory loads were dissected as a preliminary to all being chronographed in same rifle, same day, coming up.
They all used a ball powder, looks the same for all to eyeball, except for the one load that had compression:
Federal Premium Safari 500-gr HYDRO.
The bottom third of the case fill was, shall we say "caked," and had to be helped out with a pointed stick, at which point it crumbled and poured out.
A few of the compressed grains look flattened and enlarged as if one grain melted together with another, here and there.
See enlarged view presented last below:



 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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There was a variance of .005" in the COL of the VOR-TX loads, with the two different rounds of factory ammo measured for the sample above.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Powder charges of the 6 factory loads were weighed this time by weighing the loaded round, dumping the powder,
then weighing the empty, primed case and bullet together (and separately),
being sure all powder gone, then subtracting the weight of the empty with no powder charge from the gross weight with powder charge.

 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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A short COL and deep seating does indeed allow the .458 WinM. to extract the most MV/KE/Mo for the least powder burned and thus least recoil.
Do we call that some special sort of efficiency or what ?
patriot
.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
Nota bene: In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

The longer load plus higher pressure is a Lott of fun.
But three point three four and sixty thousand will get it done,
if the rifle is chambered for the four five eight Winchester.
Believe the Three Mahohbohs, or you're a monkey's sister.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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I swapped a .500 S&W revolver for a CVA Paramount.
It was a good trade.
.458 WinM. saboted .458/.357/ 158-gr/ 1100 fps MV squirrel loads may be transferred directly into the Paramount and be legal for squirrel hunting in KY.

Same primer, same powder charge, same projectile might be used in both, or fine tuned to 1100 fps as needed.
1:14" twist in one, 1:22" twist in the other.
Rimfires and muzzleloaders are the only legal squirrel rifles here.

Carry a .500 S&W handgun and folks might think you prefer a .458 Lott over a .458 Winchester Magnum.
Not cool.
No worries now.
patriot
.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
Nota bene: In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

The longer load plus higher pressure is a Lott of fun.
But three point three four and sixty thousand will get it done,
if the rifle is chambered for the four five eight Winchester.
Believe the Three Mahohbohs, or you're a monkey's sister.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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More great work Ron.

You know it would be good if this thread could somehow be put into a very long single page so "Find" could used.

Maybe it cud be saved a page at a time into single Word or Excel file. Perhaps Notepad might be the way.
 
Posts: 7046 | Location: Sydney Australia | Registered: 14 September 2015Reply With Quote
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Ron,

I just dragged across page 1 and copied an then paste into Notepad and then did Wordwrap. The "find" worked perfectly once Wordwrap is done
 
Posts: 7046 | Location: Sydney Australia | Registered: 14 September 2015Reply With Quote
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Hello RIP, good to "The Mission" is still rocking along, FWIW I just bought several boxes of 458 cal 500gr Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer solids, they're on sale at MidwayUSA half off, reason being, they have an extra driving band to crimp in, i'll see how close I can get to 3.600 with them.

Also, some say they're not needed, I'm sure 450gr solids and TSX's have and will continue to get it all done, I want to see how accurately and fast I can drive the 500 grain bullets from the 458 WM +P Long, 2300-2350 fps will be a damn good spot, we shall see.

IIRC there's only about 6 boxes left at Midways half off sale if you want to order them.
 
Posts: 789 | Registered: 18 February 2009Reply With Quote
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Mike,

Does not the search function here do a good enough job for you ?
Buy a donkey for supporting THE MISSION.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Jerry,

Buy a donkey for that tip. Will check it out.
Don't be a stranger at THE MISSION, be a star ranger for THE MISSION,
for the .458 Winchester Crusade.
patriot
.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
Nota bene: In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

The longer load plus higher pressure is a Lott of fun.
But three point three four and sixty thousand will get it done,
if the rifle is chambered for the four five eight Winchester.
Believe the Three Mahohbohs, or you're a monkey's sister.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Whatever Jerry could do with this in a SAAMI .458 Lott, he can certainly beat with his long-magazined .458 WIN+P+L:



Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer .458/ 500-gr looks ideal for .458 WIN+P+L.
Lead core bonded to thick-nosed bronze jacket makes it shorter than a bronze/brass monometal.
I guesstimate it might be under 1.4" BOL by eyeball.
Maybe as short as 1.374" by laying a scale on the puter image, will see.
Short is good for terminal ballistics with a solid, especially when paired with high SD. tu2
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
Mike,

Does not the search function here do a good enough job for you ?
Buy a donkey for supporting THE MISSION.


But that will be the whole forum.

If whole thread is in something like Notepad then a "find" for sat Cast Bullets will find every instance of that in the thread
 
Posts: 7046 | Location: Sydney Australia | Registered: 14 September 2015Reply With Quote
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I have slugged the CVA Paramount .45-cal muzzleloader.
8 grooves, yep, 1:22" twist.
Bore diameter is .450".
Groove diameter is 0.462", best I can tell. Deep rifling to grab that obturating plastic !
The PowerBelt ELR "280-grainers" sample of one, measured and hacksawed:
Total projectile weight = 290.6 grains (bullet body + plastic tip + PowerBelt plastic skirt at base)
Blue plastic skirt at base weighs 4.3 grains.
The copper-plated soft lead has parallel-sided diameter of 0.450": It is a bore-rider, pushed by skirt ! Eeker
Plastic skirt has major diameter of 0.460" at attachment to base of pullet by a central peg of bullet, highly rebated base forms peg.
The PowerSkirt bullet:


That is 98.0 to 105.0 grains by weight of Blackhorn 209 powder, set off by a LR primer,
with the 290-grain PowerSkirt ELR bullet.

At close range and 2200 to 2350 fps,
the soft lead plated with copper will be blown to smithereens on impact.
Only good on deer and such at long range when the .333 BC has slowed it down enough.
However it will work wonders for barking squirrels, even at close range.
If I load a bolt-action .458 WinM by chambering a neck-belled, primed case and loading the powder and bullet from the muzzle,
is that a legal "muzzleloader" for squirrel hunting in KY ?
The jury is out on that one.
Even at 325 yards, 3 shots on the steel plate turned into powdered lead with ELR PowerSkirt:



Reportedly same load, 3 shots at 100 yards:

 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Mike,

I just did an advanced search from 2017-01-01 to today, Big Bore forum only.
and got 3 pages with 56 hits for "James Watts" as the only search term.
53 of the 56 hits were from THE MISSION.
Pretty soon this thread will be most of the Big Bore forum anyway.
So just searching this forum will be good enough for me.
I get a few extras thrown in that way, just to keep me on my toes.
Where it all began, buy a donkey to Tanoose:

posted 07-05-2017 9:59 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Tanoose:
the hornady load book says you can get 2200 fps with there 500 grain bullets out of a 24" barrel can that velocity actually be reached. i ask because this seems so close to the lott at 2300 fps unless the lott actually gets more. i already have a 416 ruger but have always wanted a 458 and wondering which way to go.

Yes, Tanoose, believe.
The only clarification to the quote from Tanoose is that when Hornady gets 2200 fps with 500-grainer in a 24"-barreled .458 Win.Mag. at 60,000 psi,
they get only 2250 fps with same 500-grainer in a 24"-barreled .458 Lott at 62,000 psi.
The only fly in the ointment is that the .458 Lott was done in a 1:10" twist and the .458 Win.Mag. was done in a 1:14" twist: INSIGNIFICANT
Also, the .458 Lott could have been pushed to 62,500 psi and still be SAAMI: INSIGNIFICANT
So, do two insignificants make a significant ?
No. Two Wongs do not make a white.
THROAT
THROAT
THROAT
patriot
.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
Nota bene: In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

The longer load plus higher pressure is a Lott of fun.
But three point three four and sixty thousand will get it done,
if the rifle is chambered for the four five eight Winchester.
Believe the Three Mahohbohs, or you're a monkey's sister.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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So the SAAMI .458 Lott beats the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum by about 50 fps with 500-grainer: INSIGNIFICANT
The .458 WIN+P+L beats all,
but the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum does all.
Believe the Three Mahohbohs, or your're a monkey's sister, i.e., a Lottite !
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
Whatever Jerry could do with this in a SAAMI .458 Lott, he can certainly beat with his long-magazined .458 WIN+P+L:



Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer .458/ 500-gr looks ideal for .458 WIN+P+L.
Lead core bonded to thick-nosed bronze jacket makes it shorter than a bronze/brass monometal.
I guesstimate it might be under 1.4" BOL by eyeball.
Maybe as short as 1.374" by laying a scale on the puter image, will see.
Short is good for terminal ballistics with a solid, especially when paired with high SD. tu2


Thanks RIP, I'm also interested in the 500gr bullets to compare with the Lott, after all, that's the weight they both made their names [reps] with, will be fun testing when I get my rifle back from JES, going to be a three groove .450/.458 rebore/rechamber on a factory 24 inch classic stainless barrel, bored for the 458 may also lighten the rifle a pound.

If able to crimp in that bottom groove, and using H-335/A2460/A2230 I may be in for some real surprises, all that aside, and getting back to what these rifles do, an iron sighted 458 +P+L would be a hell of a close range river reeds Cape Buffalo thumper, have heard good things for years about the 500gr Trophy Bonded Sledgehammers.

My Tanzanian PH really liked the 550gr Woodleighs, I like the heavies too.
 
Posts: 789 | Registered: 18 February 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by jerry mcdonald:
Thanks RIP, I'm also interested in the 500gr bullets to compare with the Lott, after all, that's the weight they both made their names [reps] with, will be fun testing when I get my rifle back from JES, going to be a three groove .450/.458 rebore/rechamber on a factory 24 inch classic stainless barrel, bored for the 458 may also lighten the rifle a pound.

3-groove .450"/.458" should be a speedy barrel. Sticking with 1:14" twist ?

If able to crimp in that bottom groove, and using H-335/A2460/A2230 I may be in for some real surprises, all that aside, and getting back to what these rifles do, an iron sighted 458 +P+L would be a hell of a close range river reeds Cape Buffalo thumper, have heard good things for years about the 500gr Trophy Bonded Sledgehammers.

My Tanzanian PH really liked the 550gr Woodleighs, I like the heavies too.


I ordered a couple of boxes to try too.
Looks like it is going to be really close to 3.6" COL crimped on the third cannelure.
Take your pick of elephant and buffalo thumpers:
2300 fps with 450-grainers in the 3.34" COL/SAAMI .458 WM and 2300 fps with 500-grainers in the 3.60" .458 WIN+P+L, very sensible either way.
450-gr CEB, HYDRO, and TSX are available, plus any stashed Barnes Banded, etc.
500-grain TBSH, DGX, DGS, Stashed Barnes Banded, etc., etc., ...

The .458 Winchester Magnum has all the thumping power needed for anything,
and staying power for the ages:



Joker above cannot do arithmetic, record lasted 35 years if from 1984 to 2019.

Passing 50-mile mark in a 100-K race:



https://www.mensjournal.com/he...ing-record-carbon-x/

patriot
.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
Nota bene: In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

The longer load plus higher pressure is a Lott of fun.
But three point three four and sixty thousand will get it done,
if the rifle is chambered for the FOUR FIVE EIGHT Winchester.
Believe the Three Mahohbohs, or you're a monkey's sister.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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RIP, that's the plan, have a call back with Jess to discuss a few options then will go from there, you're right, the 500gr Sledgehammer solids and [available] 450gr TSX's will be what I initially begin work with, my powder guy is going through his stash and contact list to try and get me a few pounds each of A2460 and 2230, I have the better part of 8lbs of H-335 on hand.

This is going to be a fun cabin fever project! ; ]
 
Posts: 789 | Registered: 18 February 2009Reply With Quote
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Jerry,
Your rifle will be of great interest for THE MISSION.
Here is the data for starting loads for .458 WIN+P+L 3.6", the maximum loads for the .458 Lott.
But since your rifle is a re-bore, better back off to starting loads for the .458 Lott,
and stop when you are beating the .458 Lott maximum loads by about 50 fps.
With the 500-gr TBSH being shorter than the 500-gr BBS,
you are going to have more powder space to work with, might have to add more H335, non-compressed:


 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Note that Barnes had to shorten the .458 Lott brass by 0.040" to be able to fit the 450-gr TSX into a 3.600" COL to satisfy SAAMI for the .458 Lott.
They are also, presumably, keeping pressure down to MAP of 62,500 psi for the SAAMI .458 Lott.
They advise that if your magazine will handle longer COL, go ahead.
That is the same thing that we here at THE MISSION recommend for the .458 WIN+P+L. Big Grin
So, if the TBSH is crimped on the third cannelure, with about a third of an inch seating depth, locking it down on a 100% fill of propellant, with a Lee Factory Crimp Die,
and the COL exceeds 3.600"
but it still feeds through the magazine,
be happy !
Or shorten your brass to heart's content.
You will still be able to beat a SAAMI .458 Lott with the wildcatted .458 Winchester Magnum.

I am tired of typing .458 WIN+P+L.
I am calling it the "45 Winchester American Great Always."
The "45 WAGA" henceforth.
Gonna get a red baseball cap with "WAGA" on the front of it.
"45" on the right side of it, American Flag on the left side of it.

If President Trump lets the Damnedocrat fraud take away his 2nd term,
it will be a damnation.

Think of it !
If Trump got 74 million votes (way more than any previous honest or fraudulent vote total for a POTUS candidate ever in our history)
then the Damnocrats must have converted votes for Trump into votes for Biden, plus undeniably having created Biden votes from scratch (dead people, nonresidents, duplicates, identity theft, mail fraud, mini-van loads of manufactured votes at 4 AM,
computer hacking, etc., etc.)
for about 10 million fraudulent votes.
Whatever it took.

I might have to recycle some "MAGA" hats,
and turn the "M" upside-down.
It is not time to turn Old Glory upside-down, yet.

.458WM: SAAMI
45WAGA: Wildcat
patriot
.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
Nota bene: In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

The longer load plus higher pressure is a Lott of fun.
But three point three four and sixty thousand will get it done,
if the rifle is chambered for the FOUR FIVE EIGHT Winchester.
Believe the Three Mahohbohs, or you're a monkey's sister.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Here are some old images from the internet:

Will hacksaw a .458/500-gr TBSH when the CARE package arrives from MidwayUSA.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Underloading from Federal:
 
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Overloading from Federal:

 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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The 45WAGA will easily beat the SAAMI .458 Lott with the 500-gr TBSH.
Higher MV at same pressure,
same MV at lower pressure,
or higher MV and lower pressure with fine tuning.

Procrastinated long enough. I better get with developing squirrel loads for both the .458WM and the .45 Paramount ML.
I am forgetting deer season with the .458WM.
Going for squirrel and varmint with those squirrel loads, centerfire or muzzleloader as legal for the locale: Head shooting of small game.
I will test them when I also chronograph the six factory .458WM loads.
Eventually, I will be going on Safari worldwide with one gun to do it all,
.458WM or 45WAGA:
rimfire recoil equivalent
.410 shotgun equivalent
plains game getter
Mahohboh equivalent
patriot
.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
Nota bene: In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

The longer load plus higher pressure is a Lott of fun.
But three point three four and sixty thousand will get it done,
if the rifle is chambered for the FOUR FIVE EIGHT Winchester.
Believe the Three Mahohbohs, or you're a monkey's sister.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Jerry got his bullets and I did too.
Very pleased:

 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Cardboard box top they come in:

 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Shazzam ! I got 26 bullets in my first-opened box of "25."

 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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There was a tiny little card with load data from Federal inside the box.
Scanned enlargement reads more easily on the 'puter.

This shows that the TBSH was designed with a short enough nose to be loaded inside of the crowded SAAMI COL of a .458 Lott: 3.580" works when crimped on the first cannelure.

However, this penalizes the .458 WinMag to only 3.275" COL when seated to first cannelure,
according to the way Federal did it.

Note, however that despite this short loading and 2,500 psi lower pressure allowed to the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum,
it still delivers 2213 fps MV in a 24" barrel,
though it does so with mildly compressed load of Alliant Power Pro Varmint powder.
That is a new one for me.

 
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New name for the wildcat, again.
Abbreviations repeated again for clarity:

.458 WM is for the .458 Winchester Magnum to SAAMI standards, it will do it all.

.458 MAGA is for the .458 Magnum American Great Always, the wildcatted .458 WM,
which is allowed to reach same COL and pressure as the .458 Lott.
If you do that, you will leave the .458 Lott in the rearview mirror.
 
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