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Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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That illustration on the last page of the Lindsay article above brings us back to Creedmoor.
The cocky Irish would have whipped the Yanks in 1874, using their Rigby-built .451-bore muzzleloaders against the Yankee Sharps and Remington breechloaders,
if that one Irishman (Millner not Murphy) had not made a bullseye on a Yank target.
That has got to be the origin of the thing about the Irish drinking too much,
or, the luck of the Irish?
Henceforth I am calling it "Millner's Law" not "Murphy's Law."



Stalwart teammate John Rigby moved on to breechloaders and metallic cartridges after that.
The .450-2.4"-Match and .450-2.6"-Match in the 1880's, so similar to the .45-100 Sharps Straight 2.6-Inch of 1876.
Then smokeless powder.
And finally the .450 Special Rigby of 1897-1898 paved the way with the ballistic recipe for the .458 WIN, full Nitro Express ballistics and then some.
tu2
Rip ...
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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tu2
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Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by RIP:

tu2
Rip ...


At least he appears to be shooting a proper rifle with two barrels set side by side.
 
Posts: 8127 | Registered: 09 January 2011Reply With Quote
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quote:
At least he appears to be shooting a proper rifle with two barrels set side by side.

No wonder he hit the wrong target.....he was lucky to hit anything! Smiler
 
Posts: 18900 | Location: Very NW NJ up in the Mountains | Registered: 14 June 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Biebs:
quote:
At least he appears to be shooting a proper rifle with two barrels set side by side.

No wonder he hit the wrong target.....he was lucky to hit anything! Smiler


rotflmo tu2
 
Posts: 2227 | Location: KENAI, ALASKA | Registered: 10 November 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Biebs:
quote:
At least he appears to be shooting a proper rifle with two barrels set side by side.

No wonder he hit the wrong target.....he was lucky to hit anything! Smiler


I do believe he scored a 10! Just on the wrong team's target! I suspect collusion! Did they have independent prosecutors back in them days?

stir
 
Posts: 8127 | Registered: 09 January 2011Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Todd Williams:
quote:
Originally posted by Biebs:
quote:
At least he appears to be shooting a proper rifle with two barrels set side by side.

No wonder he hit the wrong target.....he was lucky to hit anything! Smiler


I do believe he scored a 10! Just on the wrong team's target!

That is correct, except the score was zero for that bullseye on the wrong target, scored as a complete miss, match rules.

I suspect collusion! Did they have independent prosecutors back in them days?

My research has turned up no evidence of Russian agents. No evidence of special prosecutors either.
stir

I am probably as Irish as Mr. Millner,
and his story leaves me with a nagging suspicion about my score of 299 of 300 possible at M-16 qualification.
Did I fire that last shot at the wrong target?
homer
Rip ...
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Those who own a .458 Lott of current SAAMI & CIP spec can remedy that woeful state of affairs quite easily.
All it takes is to run a reamer for the one-and-only-ever SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum into the chamber of the current, short-throated .458 Lott.
A reamer with a non-cutting belt stop would be the cat's meow.
This would produce a .458 Lott Like Jack Built.
If only SAAMI would revise their homologation,
and CIP would do their second revision of the .458 Lott ...
Make the COL 3.750" also.
That still leaves some room for the daring wildcatter to load the .458 Lott LongCOL in a true magnum action,
to the same length as the .458 WIN LongCOL can be loaded with the 500-grain TSX.
tu2
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Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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RIP
Have you considered making a scaled up version of your beloved 458 Min Wag in .510 flavor? Scaled up using 460 Wby brass?


577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

*we band of 45-70ers* (Founder)
Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder)
 
Posts: 27262 | Location: Where tech companies are trying to control you and brainwash you. | Registered: 29 April 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by boom stick:
RIP
Have you considered making a scaled up version of your beloved 458 Min Wag in .510 flavor? Scaled up using 460 Wby brass?

Didn't Art Alphin already do that as the .495 A-Square?
That is indeed a nice one.
But the .458 WIN is plenty and much more versatile and economical to boot.
A chicken in every pot and a .458 WIN (or a dozen) in every home is what I always say.
tu2
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Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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The 495 a square is 2.8” long (500 A2 is 2.9”)
I was thinking the 500 RIP Mag with a proper throat would be 2.54” long or 2.5”


577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

*we band of 45-70ers* (Founder)
Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder)
 
Posts: 27262 | Location: Where tech companies are trying to control you and brainwash you. | Registered: 29 April 2005Reply With Quote
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Nah, scaling up a .458 Win to .510 WIN would mean a 2.500" case lengthened to 2.784" max case length on a .460 Wby Straight.
Art did it already, 2.800" is close enough.
With my LongCOL proclivities I would not limit a .510 WIN to 2.5".
The .510 WIN would be throated like the .458 WIN, however, and that might beat a .495 A-Square. tu2
Rip ...
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Orders for firing the first-ever .450-bore Matchlock squirrel rifle:

Steps 1-4:



1. Clear your pan.
2. Prime your pan.
3. Shut your pan.
4. Blow of(f) your loose powder.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Steps 5-8:



5. Trail your rest.
6. Open your charge.
7. Charge your musket.
8. Draw forth your scouring stick.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Steps 9-12:



9. Put in your bullet and ram home.
10. Return your scouring stick.
11. Poise your musket and recover your rest.
12. Rest your musket.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Steps 13-16:



13. Blow your match.
14. Cock your match.
15. Present.
16. Give fire.
tu2
Rip ...
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Ok, sooo a 500 RIP Mag 2.5”. Long COL with BMG bullets. I wonder how fast those 750s would go?


577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

*we band of 45-70ers* (Founder)
Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder)
 
Posts: 27262 | Location: Where tech companies are trying to control you and brainwash you. | Registered: 29 April 2005Reply With Quote
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boom stick,

Thank you for turning over to page 120 for THE MISSION.
I already have your suggestion covered with the .500 Bateleur (.510/.338 Lopwah Magnum 2.7-Inch) on both an FN Mauser action and a Weatherby Mark V action.
There is really no need for anything more than a .458 WIN LongCOL bolt-action,
unless it might be the .45-100 Sharps Winchester Throat 2.6-Inch, for single-shot and double rifles, for flanged-cartridge purists.
tu2
Rip ...
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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The "Manual of Arms for the .450-bore Matchlock Squirrel Rifle" was presented, facetiously, at the bottom of page 119 of THE MISSION.
It is actually an excerpt from the GUN DIGEST 1956 article by the great Dane, Mr. Tage Lasson, pp. 33-40,
"Hand Cannon to Flintlock".

That excerpt plus what follows is for book review purposes.
Book Review: Gun Digest 1956 is a great read.

About the "TWICE-.450-Bore" .90-Bore Hand-Cannon:



Above is an artist's rendition of a .90-bore hand-cannon in use circa 1375-1400.
It is most certainly of the the latter 14th century.
The original is in the Royal Museum of Arms and Armours in Copenhagen, Denmark.
It was recovered from the ruins of the castle of Vedelspang in the mid 1800's.

Hand-Cannon Ignition System: Hand Ignition with Match
Primary Use: Defensive weapon, as wall gun with the larger bores.
The smaller bores (sub-one-inch) were fired "from the hip" (hopefully with armor overlying the hip where the butt of the hand-cannon rested)
with strong-hand grip on the "stock" and off-hand used to touch it off. rotflmo

The author's words:

"The barrel is little less than 8 inches long,and the caliber at the muzzle is 0.9 inch.
The stock is made of iron and has a length of 24 inches.
The weight of the gun is 5.37 pounds.
The touch-hole is placed on the top of the barrel, and this arm therefore represents a very primitive type of hand firearm.
... The ball I used for my experiments with an exact copy of this arm weighed 802 grains ...
... powder mixture I used for the old hand-cannon was made from a recipe found in an account book dated 1380, from the city of Rothenburg, Germany.
This powder mixture, not granulated, was made of 8 parts of saltpeter, one part each of sulphur and charcoal.
I used 600 grains of this mixture--and found that the old cannon was a dangerous weapon.
At 30 yards the ball penetrated a two-inch pine board, but also a light suit of armor.
At 50 yards the ball penetrated a one-inch board,
but I got no results at distances greater than 50 yards as I couldn't see to hit the target, again because of the touch-hole on top of the barrel."

There you have it. The beginnings of the .45-bore rifle was the 2 X .45-bore hand-cannon!
tu2
Rip ...
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Gun Digest 1956 is my earliest issue, bought when I was a freshman in college. I have never recovered from the effects it had on me. Life membership in the NRA followed in 1960.
 
Posts: 1705 | Registered: 27 March 2007Reply With Quote
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xausa,

That is cool beans. Thanks for your support of THE MISSION.
I will bring some paper-patched loads (procrastination can last only so long)
for trial at your backyard range
(600 yards will be plenty, thank you)
soon as I can shake loose from Kentucky and get gone to Tennessee.
tu2
Rip ...
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by RIP:




Above is an artist's rendition of a .90-bore hand-cannon in use circa 1375-1400.

Rip ...



Now don't be BS'ing us old BS'ers.

THAT ... is clearing Biebs and one of his Blaser thing-of-a-majigs.
 
Posts: 8127 | Registered: 09 January 2011Reply With Quote
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yuck
Todd,

Thank you for your latest sortie.
That is hilarious, especially since everybody knows a 14th century hand-cannon is more accurate and much safer for the user than any Blaser.
More powerful too.
tu2
Rip ...
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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1955. The 243 Winchester cartridge is introduced.

1956. The 458 Winchester Magnum cartridge is introduced.
- Image source: Winchester Repeating Arms

Yes, 1956 was a very good year:

http://www.winchesterguns.com/...eline-1950-1999.html

1955: Winchester Repeating Arms Division of Olin Mathieson Chemical Corporation pilot program for the .458 WIN.

November 8, 1955: Gen. (Ret.) Julian S. Hatcher, Technical Editor of the AMERICAN RIFLEMAN (NRA), received a sample rifle and ammunition for testing.
Feeding problems were noted, a rifle fault, no flies on the ammo, correctable by "feed job."

July 1956: Gen. Hatcher received the improved model rifle and same ammunition for the .458 WIN.
It performed well. Full .458 Nitro.

August 1956: General Hatcher's glowing write-up appeared in the AMERICAN RIFLEMAN.

In August 1956, I was in Puerto Rico, toddling around in training pants, not able to read yet, missed that article by Gen. Hatcher,
but I was a sentient being, alive when the .458 WIN was released upon the world.

My first memory is of being pulled out of the ocean by the seat of my rubber training pants, in 1956, when a wave capsized my little rubber boat,
at Air Force Beach, Ramey AFB, San Juan, Puerto Rico.
Pop saved me from drowning in the surf.

I am older than the .458 WIN, so I cannot be accused of favoring it only for nostalgia reasons.
As far as I am concerned it is the latest and greatest of hot, new cartridges.
Ain't none better than the .458 WIN.
tu2
Rip ...
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Winchester introduced the original clear back in 1958 when Elvis was dancing to the Jailhouse Rock and Explorer 1, the first U.S. earth-orbit satellite, was circling the globe. In those “bigger is better” days, belted magnum cartridges (based on the .375 H&H Magnum case) were coming into vogue. Winchester’s first was the .458 Winchester Magnum in 1956. The .264 and .338 versions came in 1958, but the .300 Winchester Magnum — today’s best known and most popular — didn’t hit the streets until 1963. When it did, the .264 Win. Mag. quickly faded. The added versatility of the .300 was too much for most hunters to pass up.


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
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Some claim the .375 H&H was originally called the Belted Rimless Nitro-Express in England. Winchester called it the Magnum over here, and that title has stuck.


https://www.buckmasters.com/Ma...mazing-375-HH-Family

It arose as an effective medium- to large-game cartridge for buffalo, lion and tiger. This step down in bore size from older rounds was made possible by the increased energies and low carbon fouling of the new smokeless powders.

Not every hunter needed a dangerous-game rifle, but H&H needed more sales, so it reduced the neck of the .375 to make the world’s second belted magnum cartridge. And if you think you know it, hang on. It was not the .300 H&H Magnum, but the .275 H&H Magnum of 1912. This was essentially the equivalent of today’s 7mm Remington Magnum or 7mm Weatherby Magnum, but powders of the day couldn’t push the rounds to their true potential.

The Amazing .375 H&H FamilyNext, in the early 1920s, came the H&H .240 Magnum Rimless, the .243 Winchester of its day. It shoved a 100-grain bullet 2,900 fps.

The .300 version, initially labeled the Super Thirty, didn’t debut until 1925. It bettered the popular .30-06 Springfield by about 150 fps. Holland and Holland went on to make a .400 H&H Magnum, .465 H&H Magnum and, in 1955, another 6mm, the .244 Magnum, which took advantage of newer American powders to wring an advertised 3,500 fps from a 100-grain bullet.

While these proper British developments are interesting, American versions of the .375 H&H mother case are more familiar. Roy Weatherby got the magnum ball rolling in 1943 with a whole series of magnums based on the old H&H case. The first was the iconic .270 Weatherby Magnum. It beat the old .270 Winchester by about 200 fps. To make this and his .257 and 7mm versions, Roy shortened the original .300 H&H case from 2.850 inches to 2.549 inches, minimized wall taper and pushed forward a “double radius” shoulder.

For his .300 version, Roy maintained the full .300 H&H length. The .340 Wby didn’t hit the streets until 1962 after Winchester had proved the value of the .338 caliber with its .338 Win Mag of 1958 based, big surprise, on the H&H case. Each new Weatherby set speed records and helped fix the belted magnum mystique. Only recently was the .300 Wby outclassed by the .300 Dakota, .300 Remington Ultra Mag and .30-378 Wby, all based on fatter cases.

With his improved case shape, Weatherby made the original .375 H&H the .375 Wby in 1945. It was superseded in 1953 by his .378 Wby based on a larger case. In fact, all larger Weatherby calibers are based on this larger case, so we’ll shift to Winchester and Remington for more H&H family developments.

The Amazing .375 H&H Family



Weatherby’s success inspired Winchester, which announced its .458 Win Mag in 1956. Winchester shortened the .375 case to 2.5 inches so it would more easily fit its Model 70 and Mauser military actions then being converted to sporting use. This attracted customers who couldn’t afford the more expensive Weatherby cartridges.


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
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Weatherby’s success inspired Winchester, which announced its .458 Win Mag in 1956. Winchester shortened the .375 case to 2.5 inches so it would more easily fit its Model 70 and Mauser military actions then being converted to sporting use. This attracted customers who couldn’t afford the more expensive Weatherby cartridges.

Two years later, the .458 WM was necked down to become the .338 WM and .264 WM. The .338 slowly became a respected elk and big bear round. The screaming .264 WM, a direct challenge to the .257 Wby, was labeled the Westerner and took off immediately as a mountain rifle for deer, elk and moose. Remington pulled the rug from under it in 1962 with release of its more efficient 7mm RM, which could handle slightly heavier bullets. Winchester countered with the .300 WM the next year, and the two slugged it out for a couple of decades. They remain two of the most popular magnum rounds in the world, and both owe their success to a parent born 50 years earlier.

Remington got really creative in the mid 1960s by shortening the belted magnum cases to 2.17 inches and chambering them as the 6.5 RM and .350 RM in short-barreled, quick handling carbines that never wrung full potential from the cartridges. After a hiatus, Remington announced one more variation on the .375 H&H theme, its full-length 8mm RM in 1978. While it compares ballistically to the .338 WM, it has never approached its popularity. The 8mm RM was necked down to .284 to become the 7mm Shooting Times Westerner in 1989. It wasn’t recognized as a SAAMI factory round until 1996, at which time it was the fastest commercial 7mm, hitting 3,400 fps with a 140-grain bullet. It was dethroned as Speed King in 2002 by the 7mm RUM.

The obscure 8mm RM has one final claim to fame. Remington necked it up to .416 to make the .416 RM, a challenger to the .458 WM. The .416 RM functions perfectly through the Model 700 long action and, despite its narrower, lighter bullet, retains more energy downrange with a flatter trajectory.

While all this .375 H&H development was churning, the Scandinavians at Norma weren’t asleep at the switch. Seeing a void, in 1959 they raised Winchester’s .338 WM bid with the .358 Norma Magnum. It was created from a shortened .375 H&H case with straighter walls and a sharper shoulder. The case was lengthened to make the .308 Norma Mag in 1960. The advent of the .300 WM just three years later pretty much doomed the Norma version.

Norma in 1953 was the first to produce factory ammunition for the American wildcat 7x61mm Sharpe & Hart, yet another modification of the basic H&H belted case. The S&H is just slightly shorter than the 7mm RM, which put it to pasture. Who knows, if any American gun maker had chambered the S&H in mass-produced rifles, the Remington version might never have been born.

Dozens more wildcats have been carved from the .375 H&H, making it the hands-down champ for inspiring new cartridges. Meanwhile the original remains the most popular .375 caliber in the world — not a bad history.


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
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