quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

I am a firm believer that those who do shoot captive bred lions know exactly what they are doing.

So what right do we have to stop them??

It is their money, and their choice.

Doesn't South Africa have more lions now than any other country??

What will happen to those lions if they become worth nothing??

Allowing them to continue shooting captive bread lions will ensure that wild lion hunting is soon closed forever. You CANNOT neutralize the canned lion and captive bred lion propaganda that is being used by the anti's to paint all lion hunting with the same brush - which will lead to the closure of ALL lion hunting. You CAN argue successfully for public opinion and against the Anti's for wild lion hunting to continue with scientifically based management practices. It's the canned element of lion hunting that is swaying public opinion against us IMHO.

I doubt SA has more lion than Tanzania as a whole. Close the canned lion industry and all lion will be slaughtered.....So what? We do that to cattle all the time Skins and bones and some sold as pets and to zoos will offset some of the cost.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Neil-PH:

quote:

I have been hunting every year, and every year I hunt for lion, and only on rare occasions we manage to shoot one.And I hunt wild lions.To say that there enough lions in the wild to meet the demand of hunters is nothing but plain bullshit.

Are we actually beginning to realise that there could very well be a problem with mature, wild lion numbers, and that the rhetoric on the harvesting of wild cats could be based on facts?

To be blunt, in all my years that I have been hunting professionally I have seen a decline in good quality lion, but I will say this is not the case in all the blocks, concessions I have been fortunate enough to work.

Perhaps we have been taking things too far. Perhaps tougher legislation was required. Quota systems have been poorly set up in certain countries, and I guess with the increased number of hunters seeking wild lion it was inevitable that younger males would be harvested until stricter quota management systems were implemented.

This is just my opinion, but I would be interested to hear from other PH's who have been around the wild lion industry for longer than 20 years, just to see if they concur.

Neil,

I would say that both PH and Client awareness and a more responsible approach to Lion hunting has led to far less Lion being taken in Tanzania.

We have plenty of good quality Lions in Zambia and if it was not for a few greedy fuckers with over inflated quotas we would still be hunting Lion today.

Andrew, precisely!
Sadly it seems that Zim are still "resisting" to the introduction of the 6 year rule as evidenced by recent hunt reports.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Does that mean the 85% who come to hunt lion get a refund on the inflated daily rates??

I know at least one outfitter in Zimbabwe who charges "lion" daily rates only if you shoot one.

Otherwise his daily rate for DG applies - which lower.

Will outfitters in Tanzania apply this rule??

Saeed, let's be sensible..... Do you ask for a refund/discount on daily rates if you don't shoot your warthog, reedbuck, 3rd buffalo, [insert any one of the 40+ species yu have on license] on your hunt? Why should lion be different?

In Tanzania, most outfitters sell you a 21 day FULL BAG hunt to include lion - one of 40+ species available on your package! The high daily rates reflect that full bag and not just lion. If you are sold a lion ONLY hunt then the formula being used elsewhere you described makes a lot of sense.

I'm just curious how a 350 lb person hunting an RSA lion is easier than sitting in a blind shooting a lion at a set distance (which the scope is doped for) over bait (which was set up and maybe pre-baited) is less hunting.

I've done neither, but would like to know why all the bitching.

Oh, I forgot we all fight each other.

I keep trying to just keep myself to the educational threads, but I hope to learn from this one.

Please, tell me how it is different knowing a lion is coming to your bait (by hair, trail cam, etc.) at a certain distance is not just shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by DCS Member:
I'm just curious how a 350 lb person hunting an RSA lion is easier than sitting in a blind shooting a lion at a set distance (which the scope is doped for) over bait (which was set up and maybe pre-baited) is less hunting.

I've done neither, but would like to know why all the bitching.

Oh, I forgot we all fight each other.

I keep trying to just keep myself to the educational threads, but I hope to learn from this one.

Please, tell me how it is different knowing a lion is coming to your bait (by hair, trail cam, etc.) at a certain distance is not just shooting.

I have been hunting lion for over 30 years, and I have shot a few.

Some by tracking, and some on bait.

I enjoy both.

Sitting in a blind one can enjoy everything that goes around - from other animals, to birds.

The same goes for leopards.

Again, I think we are playing into the hands of the antis.

Those bastards don't like HUNTING, in any form or shape.

So, as far as I am concerned, I will hunt anyway I wish, and tell them to take a hike!

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:


The above is most definitely NOT true at all.

I have been hunting every year, and every year I hunt for lion, and only on rare occasions we manage to shoot one.

And I hunt wild lions.

To say that there enough lions in the wild to meet the demand of hunters is nothing but plain bullshit.

Saeed, you obviously perceive the "demand" differently from myself and others here. For me, the demand for hunting a wild lion in Africa today should have absolutely NOTHING and I repeat NOTHING to do with success! Any client, PH or Outfitter today, who offers or expects any kind of success rate on the hunting of a 6+ year old male lion in the wild is setting themselves up for dissapointment.

It is now clear - at least in Tanzania - that less than 15% of hunters looking for a wild 6+ year old lion find one. You and everyone else buying a lion hunt in Tz are buying an "opportunity", that's all. The "demand" in this case, is for the opportunity not the success!!

How many opportunity are sold relative to success/kills ?

Are the opportunity sold all at the start of the season or as hunters fail to achieve success?

If more opportunity (hunts) than success allowed (quotas) are sold - how is the PH motivated ?

Mike

Mike,

You do raise important points.

For the most part, i would say hunts are sold before the season based on quota. Unsuccessful hunts make quota available. I tend to think that demand for last minute $80k - $100k+ hunts requiring almost 4 weeks of travel is very low resulting in only a very few such hunts taking place.

quote:

Originally posted by DCS Member:
I'm just curious how a 350 lb person hunting an RSA lion is easier than sitting in a blind shooting a lion at a set distance (which the scope is doped for) over bait (which was set up and maybe pre-baited) is less hunting.

I've done neither, but would like to know why all the bitching.

Oh, I forgot we all fight each other.

I keep trying to just keep myself to the educational threads, but I hope to learn from this one.

Please, tell me how it is different knowing a lion is coming to your bait (by hair, trail cam, etc.) at a certain distance is not just shooting.

Its like high bird shooting - a well managed release bird shoot can offer a far better shooting experience than any wild hunting.

I would argue than most of the canned hunting in South Africa offers a far better (fake) experience than wild lion hunting.

Lets leave the aspect of work and effort done to get to the lion. A wild lion is a whole different game than as Andrew would say a circus lion. I am just talking about the shooting aspect.

With a wild lion you will most likely be in a blind - a controlled environment. The PH sets where the blind is, where the bait is ect.

The South African lion hunt will give you show - you will walk up to your lion, there will be an element of faux stalk, it will be in broad day light, far closer to the movie "the ghost and the darkness" except in daylight.

The only problem is the two animals you are hunting may be genetically the same but their behavior is totally different.

Just see the Mark Sullivan video where he is shooting canned lions in South Africa. I see none of that acting or showmanship in his wild lion hunting stuff. No ones does well filmed charges with injured wild lions.

In the wild lion hunt after the client shoots the animal to some degree the real hunt starts. Its is often where the PH and trackers go to find lion (hopefully dead). This follow up and recovery is often done within an hr of the client shooting to recover the trophy. Clients spending $100K-$250K like to get their hides intact.

Mike

Sitting between a thin grass veil and a large angry Lion or pride and with the stench of fetid breath in your nostrils is typical of a blind.

Now try walking into that scenario in the dark before the first hint of dawn. Add the odd elephant or hippo into the mix and things get very interesting indeed.

quote:

Sitting between a thin grass veil and a large angry Lion or pride and with the stench of fetid breath in your nostrils is typical of a blind.Now try walking into that scenario in the dark before the first hint of dawn. Add the odd elephant or hippo into the mix and things get very interesting indeed.

Not forgetting the whole ambience of 21 days in the remotest of settings, without a fence for hundreds of miles, taking in the sounds around you.

The true adventure.

quote:

Originally posted by eny:
So, is there a finite number of lions that can be killed annually in a sustainable hunting situation? If so, do you manage it by first come first serve, random draw, price, or, insert your answer here. this is a question, not an opinion.

Yes...all of the 6 year old and older males.

quote:

I am a firm believer that those who do shoot captive bred lions know exactly what they are doing.

So what right do we have to stop them??

It is their money, and their choice.

Doesn't South Africa have more lions now than any other country??

Couple of things:

1) While I would have no desire to do it myself...I have no problem with people hunting captive bred lions as long as all is on the up & up and all know exactly what is going on.

2) The numbers of captive bred lions anyone has...has no bearing on wild lion numbers. Carnivores are not herbivores when it comes to successful transpalnting. Captive bred lions do not have the skill level or knowledge of the terrain a lion needs to survive when captive bred and realeased. Most die of starvation.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Again, I disagree greatly with your insinuation that there are not enough wild lion to satisfy the demand. Perhaps we should agree on what the demand is we refer to? For me the demand would be for the ethical and sustainable hunting of a six year old or older male lion, that is free ranging in unfenced habitat. I am confident that there are sufficient wild lion numbers and hunting opportunities to satisfy that demand sustainably if nurtured and managed correctly.

The above is most definitely NOT true at all.

I have been hunting every year, and every year I hunt for lion, and only on rare occasions we manage to shoot one.

And I hunt wild lions.

To say that there enough lions in the wild to meet the demand of hunters is nothing but plain bullshit.

I have hunted with TGT for a number of years - they are supposed to be one of the better managed areas for lion - I never was able to shoot a lion - or even see a shootable one!

I am also a bit suspicious that those who "manage" lions on their own concessions pick and choose who actually gets to even see those "managed" lions.

Are we going to apply the same rules to plains game too?

If we do, we are doomed as hunters.

We are playing into the hands of the antis - this hunt is allowed, that hunt is not allowed - ten NOT allowed list will get longer and longer, and we end up with nothing.

I am a firm believer that those who do shoot captive bred lions know exactly what they are doing.

So what right do we have to stop them??

It is their money, and their choice.

Doesn't South Africa have more lions now than any other country??

What will happen to those lions if they become worth nothing??

Yup. Success rates suck in TZ.

As African Hunters...sometimes too much is put into success rates...at least IMHO.

In TZ...you purchase the right to hunt a wild lion...nothing more...nothing less. As a hunter...that is all I expect except for a valiant hard-working effort.

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
Captive/chattel/canned lions provide asia with its lion bones.

No one is shooting a lioness in south Africa for $5k with free pickup at Tambo, 3 days 5 star lodging ect and a free skin to go with it when the real value is in the bones.

I just don't see Asia's demand going away anytime soon.

South African lion hunting (98 percent) is shooting chattle. It's the scam show of cattle killing lions ect that takes hunters as fools that is a joke.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Neil-PH:

quote:

I have been hunting every year, and every year I hunt for lion, and only on rare occasions we manage to shoot one.And I hunt wild lions.To say that there enough lions in the wild to meet the demand of hunters is nothing but plain bullshit.

Are we actually beginning to realise that there could very well be a problem with mature, wild lion numbers, and that the rhetoric on the harvesting of wild cats could be based on facts?

To be blunt, in all my years that I have been hunting professionally I have seen a decline in good quality lion, but I will say this is not the case in all the blocks, concessions I have been fortunate enough to work.

Perhaps we have been taking things too far. Perhaps tougher legislation was required. Quota systems have been poorly set up in certain countries, and I guess with the increased number of hunters seeking wild lion it was inevitable that younger males would be harvested until stricter quota management systems were implemented.

This is just my opinion, but I would be interested to hear from other PH's who have been around the wild lion industry for longer than 20 years, just to see if they concur.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:


The above is most definitely NOT true at all.

I have been hunting every year, and every year I hunt for lion, and only on rare occasions we manage to shoot one.

And I hunt wild lions.

To say that there enough lions in the wild to meet the demand of hunters is nothing but plain bullshit.

Saeed, you obviously perceive the "demand" differently from myself and others here. For me, the demand for hunting a wild lion in Africa today should have absolutely NOTHING and I repeat NOTHING to do with success! Any client, PH or Outfitter today, who offers or expects any kind of success rate on the hunting of a 6+ year old male lion in the wild is setting themselves up for dissapointment.

It is now clear - at least in Tanzania - that less than 15% of hunters looking for a wild 6+ year old lion find one. You and everyone else buying a lion hunt in Tz are buying an "opportunity", that's all. The "demand" in this case, is for the opportunity not the success!!

Exactly.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Does that mean the 85% who come to hunt lion get a refund on the inflated daily rates??

I know at least one outfitter in Zimbabwe who charges "lion" daily rates only if you shoot one.

Otherwise his daily rate for DG applies - which is lower.

Will outfitters in Tanzania apply this rule??

Daily Rates are one thing that a hunter knows for sure sure going into any hunt. If the hunter does like them...he can negotiate pre-hunt or hunt with an outfitter who's prices are more to his liking.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

I am a firm believer that those who do shoot captive bred lions know exactly what they are doing.

So what right do we have to stop them??

It is their money, and their choice.

Doesn't South Africa have more lions now than any other country??

What will happen to those lions if they become worth nothing??

Allowing them to continue shooting captive bread lions will ensure that wild lion hunting is soon closed forever. You CANNOT neutralize the canned lion and captive bred lion propaganda that is being used by the anti's to paint all lion hunting with the same brush - which will lead to the closure of ALL lion hunting. You CAN argue successfully for public opinion and against the Anti's for wild lion hunting to continue with scientifically based management practices. It's the canned element of lion hunting that is swaying public opinion against us IMHO.

I doubt SA has more lion than Tanzania as a whole. Close the canned lion industry and all lion will be slaughtered.....So what? We do that to cattle all the time Skins and bones and some sold as pets and to zoos will offset some of the cost.

I will differ from Mich here. While the Anti's use the captive-bred thing to their advantage and untruthfully...appeasement of the enemy strictly for the sake of appeasing the enemy...never won any wars.

WE stand together for all hunting or we perish seperated small segments at a time.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by DCS Member:
I'm just curious how a 350 lb person hunting an RSA lion is easier than sitting in a blind shooting a lion at a set distance (which the scope is doped for) over bait (which was set up and maybe pre-baited) is less hunting.

I've done neither, but would like to know why all the bitching.

Oh, I forgot we all fight each other.

I keep trying to just keep myself to the educational threads, but I hope to learn from this one.

Please, tell me how it is different knowing a lion is coming to your bait (by hair, trail cam, etc.) at a certain distance is not just shooting.

I have been hunting lion for over 30 years, and I have shot a few.

Some by tracking, and some on bait.

I enjoy both.

Sitting in a blind one can enjoy everything that goes around - from other animals, to birds.

The same goes for leopards.

Again, I think we are playing into the hands of the antis.

Those bastards don't like HUNTING, in any form or shape.

So, as far as I am concerned, I will hunt anyway I wish, and tell them to take a hike!

Agreed Saeed!

PS: maybe we should start a new thread for this discussion. We have certainly hijacked!

Not sure how some of you dont see how raised lions help wild lions. The bone supply drys up from animals taken in SA they will poach wild lions to get the bones. There is a supply feeding the demand now so it takes the pressure off the lions. They will poach a lion just like they do rhino and ele for what they want off the animal. The market is not as strong for lion bones since they are sold everyday out of SA.

AS for those that think the raised lions will help the anti stop lion hunting that is pure bs. They want to stop all hunting plan and simple. Dont think for a minute they dont use things they know that will keep hunters fighting with each other. They see us argue with each other over anything they use that to focus on.

I am sure it has happened in the past and maybe a few even do it now. I for one have not seen guys for SA trying to say they are hunting so called wild lions. Must now right from the start tell you it is a raised lion. Guys just refuse to see the marketing has changes for the must part and has got much better.

Some may not like it but remember maybe we dont all have 100,000 to do a lion hunt like some do. Plus there is not enough wild lions around to supply the demand or the cost would be way less to do that type of hunt. There is not unlimited tags for wild lions and very strict quotes and that is for a reason.

If the Chinese want lion bones so much, they just start their own breeding facilities for that purpose. Hell they could even sell canned hunts to their own.

quote:

.appeasement of the enemy strictly for the sake of appeasing the enemy...never won any wars.

I wish that statement would be pasted at the top of each of these discussions as no matter how noble the ideas that come after, this is the governing dynamic when it comes to understanding where we stand with the anti hunters

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Sitting between a thin grass veil and a large angry Lion or pride and with the stench of fetid breath in your nostrils is typical of a blind.

Now try walking into that scenario in the dark before the first hint of dawn. Add the odd elephant or hippo into the mix and things get very interesting indeed.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by bcap:


Some may not like it but remember maybe we dont all have 100,000 to do a lion hunt like some do. Plus there is not enough wild lions around to supply the demand or the cost would be way less to do that type of hunt. There is not unlimited tags for wild lions and very strict quotes and that is for a reason.

Not all of us can afford a rolls royce but we sure would like to own one. If some one brings out a mini disguised as a rolls for $20k, are we all going to go out and buy one and tell everyone we own a rolls? I've learned to live without

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

With a wild lion you will most likely be in a blind - a controlled environment .

Mike

Controlled how? No matter how much my brain screamed turn around youngin' my remote control was broken starting at 4:00 minutes.

Cheers
Jim

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
If the Chinese want lion bones so much, they just start their own breeding facilities for that purpose. Hell they could even sell canned hunts to their own.

They do with Tigers. Actually have tourist attractions where they release live chickens around chattle tigers.

It is more efficient to do lions in Africa. I bet some guy has a spreadsheet for cost to raise a lion/lioness for bones. The end of season lioness hunts are most likely driven of this spreadsheet not any hunting season.

Also this whole thing is an economic enterprise.

Little lions for walking safaris.

Then feeding to bulk up - most feeding will be near cattle areas. Feed dead cattle (normally calves) than is not processed into meat for human consumption.

Finally the release shooting. I assume there is a little margin in it. Besides let the tourist kill the lion.

Bones - main $$ - I have been told $6K-$8K per lion/lioness.

Dip and pack - taxidermy ect

I think a safari to Africa to shoot a lion sells better than to China. But mainly I think feed for lions - dead cattle is cheaper in South Africa.

In Botswana a guy breeding lions did not want a fresh zebra carcass for his breeding lions. Said they preferred dead calves and there were plenty of them around.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

With a wild lion you will most likely be in a blind - a controlled environment .

Mike

Controlled how? No matter how much my brain screamed turn around youngin' my remote control was broken starting at 4:00 minutes.

Cheers
Jim

Jim,

Controlled in the sense - the PH pre-determines the spot where the bait will be hung, where the blind will be built, within 10 feet of where the shot will be taken if the opportunity presents itself ect.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

With a wild lion you will most likely be in a blind - a controlled environment .

Mike

Controlled how? No matter how much my brain screamed turn around youngin' my remote control was broken starting at 4:00 minutes.

Cheers
Jim

Jim,

Controlled in the sense - the PH pre-determines the spot where the bait will be hung, where the blind will be built, within 10 feet of where the shot will be taken if the opportunity presents itself ect.

Mike

And some say the PH in RSA chooses the drugs administered, the tree the Lion is left under, and the time of day the "track" is picked up and followed.

If that's the case, and I'm not saying it is, which is more "controlled"?

Cheers
Jim

1. I agree with Saeed , hunters must stick together and keep our differences to ourselves unless we see harm to our sport or conservation, anti hunters talk about conservation hunters practise conservation.
2. I know Hans De Klerk and have done a fair amount of bussiness with him - he brought elephant hunters to our concessions in Botswana - my trackers rated him highly as a good PH and a steady hunter in dangerous situations. In all my dealings with him he was straight, but I have yet to meet a outfitter / PH who has satisfied every client - some people prefer to be unhappy about something.
3. So long as there is no deception to the facts of lion hunting on a ranch no matter its size , and the hunter makes a well informed decision to hunt a captive bred lion neither he nor his outfitter are doing anything illegal or contrary to wildlife conservation.
4. Neither the hunter or the outfitter should conceal or blurr the lines of what the hunt was, if you cannot hold your head up you shot a captive bred lion dont decieve anybody - you have not done anything wrong but you have not shot a wild lion - these are two very different hunts.
5. Be sure there are no blurred lines or grey areas - you hunt wild lions and shoot captive bred lion.
6. Shooting captive bred Lion does contribute to conservation - be it in supplying bones , income generation to local economies , land use compatible with conservation biodiversity. So long as it contributes, so its up to the hunter to do his homework and due diligence

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

With a wild lion you will most likely be in a blind - a controlled environment .

Mike

Controlled how? No matter how much my brain screamed turn around youngin' my remote control was broken starting at 4:00 minutes.

Cheers
Jim

Jim,

Controlled in the sense - the PH pre-determines the spot where the bait will be hung, where the blind will be built, within 10 feet of where the shot will be taken if the opportunity presents itself ect.

Mike

And some say the PH in RSA chooses the drugs administered, the tree the Lion is left under, and the time of day the "track" is picked up and followed.

If that's the case, and I'm not saying it is, which is more "controlled"?

Cheers
Jim

Jim

Everything in a canned hunt is highly controlled. Its just marketed differently.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

quote:

Originally posted by bcap:


Some may not like it but remember maybe we dont all have 100,000 to do a lion hunt like some do. Plus there is not enough wild lions around to supply the demand or the cost would be way less to do that type of hunt. There is not unlimited tags for wild lions and very strict quotes and that is for a reason.

Not all of us can afford a rolls royce but we sure would like to own one. If some one brings out a mini disguised as a rolls for $20k, are we all going to go out and buy one and tell everyone we own a rolls? I've learned to live without

Well when they do the mini royce we can talk about it.Making things up can change something any way you want it to go. The facts are there is a total legal lion hunt more guys can afford to do.It has its place in the hunting world and has some benefits to do so. It is not for everyone put making it a big a deal as some do only help one group of people and that is anti hunters. Worrying about what an anti hunters likes or does not like is a waste of time they dont like hunting at all.

quote:

Originally posted by Safaris Botswana Bound:
1. I agree with Saeed , hunters must stick together and keep our differences to ourselves unless we see harm to our sport or conservation, anti hunters talk about conservation hunters practise conservation.
2. I know Hans De Klerk and have done a fair amount of bussiness with him - he brought elephant hunters to our concessions in Botswana - my trackers rated him highly as a good PH and a steady hunter in dangerous situations. In all my dealings with him he was straight, but I have yet to meet a outfitter / PH who has satisfied every client - some people prefer to be unhappy about something.
3. So long as there is no deception to the facts of lion hunting on a ranch no matter its size , and the hunter makes a well informed decision to hunt a captive bred lion neither he nor his outfitter are doing anything illegal or contrary to wildlife conservation.
4. Neither the hunter or the outfitter should conceal or blurr the lines of what the hunt was, if you cannot hold your head up you shot a captive bred lion dont decieve anybody - you have not done anything wrong but you have not shot a wild lion - these are two very different hunts.
5. Be sure there are no blurred lines or grey areas - you hunt wild lions and shoot captive bred lion.
6. Shooting captive bred Lion does contribute to conservation - be it in supplying bones , income generation to local economies , land use compatible with conservation biodiversity. So long as it contributes, so its up to the hunter to do his homework and due diligence

Well written!

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by Safaris Botswana Bound:
1. I agree with Saeed , hunters must stick together and keep our differences to ourselves unless we see harm to our sport or conservation, anti hunters talk about conservation hunters practise conservation.
2. I know Hans De Klerk and have done a fair amount of business with him - he brought elephant hunters to our concessions in Botswana - my trackers rated him highly as a good PH and a steady hunter in dangerous situations. In all my dealings with him he was straight, but I have yet to meet a outfitter / PH who has satisfied every client - some people prefer to be unhappy about something.
3. So long as there is no deception to the facts of lion hunting on a ranch no matter its size , and the hunter makes a well informed decision to hunt a captive bred lion neither he nor his outfitter are doing anything illegal or contrary to wildlife conservation.
4. Neither the hunter or the outfitter should conceal or blurr the lines of what the hunt was, if you cannot hold your head up you shot a captive bred lion dont deceive anybody - you have not done anything wrong but you have not shot a wild lion - these are two very different hunts.
5. Be sure there are no blurred lines or grey areas - you hunt wild lions and shoot captive bred lion.
6. Shooting captive bred Lion does contribute to conservation - be it in supplying bones , income generation to local economies , land use compatible with conservation biodiversity. So long as it contributes, so its up to the hunter to do his homework and due diligence

Well written!

Very well written but this is bull shit. Safari Botswana Bound have obviously done their fair share of canned Lion and just simply admit it.

Is that not the point? Be honest.

Yes Andrew, as far as I am concerned, being honest in this case does make a point.

This whole point came about because of the antis.

They are the ones who coined the word "canned" hunting.

Once they win in this case, what do you think they will turn to next?

"Canned" plains game.

Isn't that what a lot of hunting in South Africa is??

quote:

Originally posted by bcap:

The facts are there is a total legal lion hunt more guys can afford to do.It has its place in the hunting world and has some benefits to do so.

bcap:

Safari Botswana has outlined the focal points regarding canned hunts:

3. So long as there is no deception to the facts of lion hunting on a ranch no matter its size , and the hunter makes a well informed decision to hunt a captive bred lion neither he nor his outfitter are doing anything illegal or contrary to wildlife conservation.

4. Neither the hunter or the outfitter should conceal or blurr the lines of what the hunt was, if you cannot hold your head up you shot a captive bred lion dont decieve anybody - you have not done anything wrong but you have not shot a wild lion - these are two very different hunts.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Originally posted by bcap:

The facts are there is a total legal lion hunt more guys can afford to do.It has its place in the hunting world and has some benefits to do so.

bcap:



Safari Botswana has outlined the focal points regarding canned hunts:

3. So long as there is no deception to the facts of lion hunting on a ranch no matter its size , and the hunter makes a well informed decision to hunt a captive bred lion neither he nor his outfitter are doing anything illegal or contrary to wildlife conservation.

4. Neither the hunter or the outfitter should conceal or blurr the lines of what the hunt was, if you cannot hold your head up you shot a captive bred lion dont decieve anybody - you have not done anything wrong but you have not shot a wild lion - these are two very different hunts.

I did read that and got his point.

I have yet to have anyone ask us were or say anything bad about the lioness my son hunted. We tell people the lioness was raised to be hunted and taken in SA all on are own.We also tell them how after being hit the first shot how she charged my son and he took two more shots finally taking her down at 40 yds or less from him.The first shot was taken at 75 to 80 yds.

I am pretty sure if she would have got to him or either of the PH's she was not going to roll over to get her belly rubbed. That right there told me all I needed to know as she was looking to attack who had hurt her. Maybe not the same as some hunts others have done. But I dont need to be told by some it is not a hunt or there's is better either.

I as a hunter pick what and how I hunt and follow the rules. There is things I don't like that others do in the hunting world. I just don't believe in putting down others or making something into a problem that will only help the anti's get what they want.

So many guys are sorry worried about proving there hunt was better or they hunted this place which is better then that place. Making bad comments about any legal hunt helps no one other then the anti's. What does someone gain by putting done a raised lion other then trying to make themselves feel better or try and prove they had a better kind of hunt. I find it funny how must of the people who dont like it either have hunted a so called wild lion or are the ones selling the so called wild lion hunts. I wonder why that is?

Again it has been said a million times you dont need to do or like this kind of hunt but making comments that look like some hunters are doing something wrong helps no one other then anti hunters.

bcap:

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you have not done anything wrong but you have not shot a wild lion - these are two very different hunts.

Accent is being put on the outfitter and/or agent selling these type of hunts.

Advertise them for what they are without masquerading or camouflaging the type of hunt being marketed; don't be surprised at the number of naive people out there who don't know the difference.

You, the prospective customer, has the freedom of choice to to hunt in whichever manner you choose.

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Originally posted by Beretta682E:

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Originally posted by Frostbit:

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Originally posted by Beretta682E:

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Originally posted by Frostbit:

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Originally posted by Beretta682E:

With a wild lion you will most likely be in a blind - a controlled environment .

Mike

Controlled how? No matter how much my brain screamed turn around youngin' my remote control was broken starting at 4:00 minutes.

Cheers
Jim

Jim,

Controlled in the sense - the PH pre-determines the spot where the bait will be hung, where the blind will be built, within 10 feet of where the shot will be taken if the opportunity presents itself ect.

Mike

And some say the PH in RSA chooses the drugs administered, the tree the Lion is left under, and the time of day the "track" is picked up and followed.

If that's the case, and I'm not saying it is, which is more "controlled"?

Cheers
Jim

Jim

Everything in a canned hunt is highly controlled. Its just marketed differently.

Mike

I have been biting my tongue for too long now.

This is simply NOT true. It is illegal to drug the lions and they have to be released 4 days min prior to the hunt. If not, and caught, they loosed their license to offer the hunt.

It all depends on WHO you hunt with. Three years ago a friend of mine got hammered by a BUFFALO bull that came out of no where while they were tracking the Lion.

On my good friend Craig Thorne's last Lion hunt, we saw three different males, and a female in 10 days of hunting. On 20,000 acres! NO inside fences or camps. We walked three days before we killed one.

It all depends on where you go and how they operate. If the ranch is big enough and they have enough Wildebeest, Zebra and Gemsbuck you will get Lions that are killing their own meals.

The one male we saw on the aforementioned hunt, was the same one I saw in June out of a bow blind (Plains Game) He was walking there for 6 months!

You are very informed Sir, and I agree with most of your statements, but to generalise and say that EVERYTHING is controlled - been there done that - it is simply not true!

Hans de Klerk is a fantastic guy and runs a solid operation. He owns the dirt you will hunt on. Know what you are booking, but if YOU are happy, book the hunt. You will have a GREAT time. Do not let these folks put you of a dream adventure.

What is "free Roaming" gentleman? If a Lion can run around on 20,000acres, is he not "free" and "roaming"......And "Wild"?? In my book we differentiate between Domestic and Wild animals.....The word "Canned" has also become a bit rich and a tool used by the anti's. Are we proud that we are using their ammunition to shoot our fellow hunters with?

"Captive bred" is the right word to use, but listening to some people (of whom some of them I regard highly) we should maybe call these cats "Domestic Lions"?????

I cannot help but notice the bitter pill of professional jealousy slowly working it's way down every thread on SA lions......the "wild" Lion guides hammering the "canned" Lions. They will never admit it, and give me a lot of shit for even mentioning it. But all these THREADS have the same trend sooner or later, by the same people. It is sad......

Let's drop this nonsense and fight together for hunting. If someone MISLEADS a hunter with info, different story, fry him by all means. He will learn a lesson and be the richer for it!

It's a mouth full, but I hope I struck a nerve in the right places.

Damb guys, this guy was EXCITED about booking his Safari, and we band of brothers just took a giant crap on his dream.

There is a way and a place to give people the right info?

Well, Infinito you certainly know more about it than I do, or will ever know. Unfortunately we've all seen a few of these hunting shows on the Outdoor Channel, for instance, where Jim Burnsworth sneaks up on a bedded lion laying under a bush in the shade, gets within 40 yards of the beast, lion never moves until the "hunter" slams an arrow into him. All happening while the lion just lays there looking at him. Same thing happened with some female hunter (Nicole something) with her bow, and another guitar playing bowhunter Andy Ross had the exact same thing happen to him. You won't convince me those animals weren't drugged to some degree.

20,000 is one thing, what about the 350lb couple killing them on 6000 acres? None of it is any skin off my back because I'm not the least bit interested in shooting a lion anywhere.

I had the dream of hunting plains game in South Africa prior to me actually going and going it. I had loads of fun, in spite of it not being exactly as represented......i.e hunted a 5000 acre high fenced place instead of the 10,000 hectare farm. No way I would have paid to hunt the place/way we hunted if I had known before hand exactly what the deal was.

I do absolutely agree with you though. As long as it is represented 100% accurate and you know what you're getting into, that's fine. It doesn't always happen that way in Africa, or NA hunts for that matter either.

infinito safaris you said it all perfectly as far as I am concern. Well done and glad an SA outfitter spoke up.