After meeting with De Klerk Safaris at the DSC I am considering a hunt with them that would include both DG and PG. I will bring my family with me. Has anyone hunted with them before, or have any relevent info that they can share?

Thank you in advance for your response.

Don't do it and he will sell you a circus Lion.

Note my subscription to The African Hunting Gazette was pulled because I objected to his advertising.

Best bet for a proper safari is Zim or Zambia for your money.

Fairgame, thank you very much for your opinion and info. As surmised the hunt will include Lion, both male and female, along with a several plains game animals. The hunt is South Africa, the Kalahari desert to be exact.

Any other responses would be appreciated.

I would take Andrews word on this & look elsewhere.

Cecil,

Andrew was somewhat ambiguous in his post. I wish he would say what is really on his mind.

As long as you understand that it is a captive reared lion and lioness, it's no skin off of anyone else.

I hunted in the same general area (Serapa) and the scenery is good. If you go in our spring to early summer it will be chilly in the morning, and pleasant as the day gets going.

I didn't find the terrain all that difficult to navigate in, it was pretty flat.

Unless you are hunting different properties for the PG than the lion, it will be high fenced, again, as long as you know that, it is not an issue, depending on size of the concession, it may not factor at all.

As to De Klerk themselves, I have no experience.

Have fun!

The lion concession is 17,000 acres.

I have hunted the Kalahari before, in Botswana. Plains game only on that trip.

Not sure what to think at this point.

I would reread Andrew's post and then read it again.


Dutch

I don't know these people and they are likely fine people. Speaking for myself, as soon as I see a lioness on the ticket (or a color phased anything) I move on.

I realize there are (or at least were) a couple of places in Zim where free range lioness were offered, but even that is not my cup of tea.

I will second Andrews advice. Got involved bringing clients to Botswana for elephant and so forth. Many dodgy dealings and they are the canned lion specialist.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
I don't know these people and they are likely fine people. Speaking for myself, as soon as I see a lioness on the ticket (or a color phased anything) I move on.

I realize there are (or at least were) a couple of places in Zim where free range lioness were offered, but even that is not my cup of tea.

I have shot a number of lionesses in Zimbabwe.

Hunting them is no difference to hunting a male lion.

In fact, the only charge we have ever had hunting lions was from a lioness.

quote:

Many dodgy dealings and they are the canned lion specialist.

Enough said.

In fairness no mention is made of a lion hunt or a lion collection, so hopefully our esteemed new member familiarises himself to the "hunt" conditions, and makes an intelligent and thought out decision.

Whatever your decision I trust you have a great time.

quote:

Originally posted by Dutch44:
I would reread Andrew's post and then read it again.


Dutch

I might want to clarify my brash statement. Firstly I do not know the De Klerks and I am sure they are fine people. My objection was the misleading nature of their advertising in a magazine that pretended to promote fair chase hunting.

A Lioness is one of most dangerous of all game.

quote:

Originally posted by Abbispa:
The lion concession is 17,000 acres.

I have hunted the Kalahari before, in Botswana. Plains game only on that trip.

Not sure what to think at this point.

You will notice from all the photos that all Lions are shot under the same acacia tree. The same tree that provides enough shade till the drugs wear off.

It is your hunt mate but personally I would rather invest in the wilds of Zimbabwe with a honest and decent PH.

I know the De Klerks well.
They offer captive bred lions in a great setting. I would go as far as to say the most challenging and exciting setting for a Captive Bred Lion in SA.
Unless they have changed their sales pitch they were always up front about the fact that the lions are captive bred.

If you want a quality captive bred lion then you need look no further. I have only ever had good dealings with them. Your payment is written into a contract with them and you get what you pay for.

If you dont want a Captive bred lion then look else where. I can however tell you that if you want a lion that has no fear of people then you will be sure to get that from them. I would say that 40% of their lions will charge at some point in the hunt.

While we might not like it, Captive Bred Lions are the only way that lion hunting can be sustained. Shooting the number of lions in demand out of wild populations is not feasible and certainly not sustainable.
If you would prefer a wild lion then look at Zim, Zambia, Cameroon, but make sure you know exactly what it is you want out of your lion hunt.

If you would like more information feel free to contact me.
Kind regards
Ian

quote:

Originally posted by Hunting the Box H:
I know the De Klerks well.
They offer captive bred lions in a great setting. I would go as far as to say the most challenging and exciting setting for a Captive Bred Lion in SA.
Unless they have changed their sales pitch they were always up front about the fact that the lions are captive bred.

If you want a quality captive bred lion then you need look no further. I have only ever had good dealings with them. Your payment is written into a contract with them and you get what you pay for.

If you dont want a Captive bred lion then look else where. I can however tell you that if you want a lion that has no fear of people then you will be sure to get that from them. I would say that 40% of their lions will charge at some point in the hunt.

While we might not like it, Captive Bred Lions are the only way that lion hunting can be sustained. Shooting the number of lions in demand out of wild populations is not feasible and certainly not sustainable.
If you would prefer a wild lion then look at Zim, Zambia, Cameroon, but make sure you know exactly what it is you want out of your lion hunt.

If you would like more information feel free to contact me.
Kind regards
Ian

Good post.

May I also suggest that if you wish to hunt a wild lion, make sure of the outfit and PH you are dealing with.

Some have been known to transport captive bred lions into other countries to by pass this.

Ian, with respect, desribe for us what a " qualitycaptive bred lion hunt " is?

IMHO a captive bred lion offered to a hunter can't be a hunt but a shoot.... and the client should be aptly referred to as a shooter or collector not a hunter.

Any attempt at allowing someone to shoot a lion that was captive bred in an enclosed area is nothing more than an attempt to recreate a wild and unfenced experience; it's unnatural, fake, cosmetically reproduced to depict reality! Even the mock charges you refer to and the lack of fear of humans are unnatural behavior of a truly wild lion.

As to your comment that captive bred lion are the only way lion hunting can be sustained and demand satisfied I beg to differ. There is dozens of sustainable hunting examples for free and wild lion. it just means that we won't be shooting 5000 wild lion a year in Africa but that is not the aim of hunting in general not just lion.

Sadly, your post comes through precisely like a booking agent's sales pitch would.

quote:

Good post.

May I also suggest that if you wish to hunt a wild lion, make sure of the outfit and PH you are dealing with.

Some have been known to transport captive bred lions into other countries to by pass this.

Good point, there are operators that have been found out doing that.
Something to look out for there would be the cat being drugged as if released into a wilderness areas they would need some way to ensure the kill.

Again I think due diligence and speaking with past clients may be the best way to figure out whether or not you are getting what you have paid for.
If you are unsure or you feel that the hunt is not one you would like to have partaken in, then simply dont shoot. Go elsewhere and do it the way you want to.

quote:

Good post.

May I also suggest that if you wish to hunt a wild lion, make sure of the outfit and PH you are dealing with.

Some have been known to transport captive bred lions into other countries to by pass this.

quote:

Ian, with respect, desribe for us what a " qualitycaptive bred lion hunt " is?

IMHO a captive bred lion offered to a hunter can't be a hunt but a shoot.... and the client should be aptly referred to as a shooter or collector not a hunter.

Any attempt at allowing someone to shoot a lion that was captive bred in an enclosed area is nothing more than an attempt to recreate a wild and unfenced experience; it's unnatural, fake, cosmetically reproduced to depict reality! Even the mock charges you refer to and the lack of fear of humans are unnatural behavior of a truly wild lion.

As to your comment that captive bred lion are the only way lion hunting can be sustained and demand satisfied I beg to differ. There is dozens of sustainable hunting examples for free and wild lion. it just means that we won't be shooting 5000 wild lion a year in Africa but that is not the aim of hunting in general not just lion.

Sadly, your post comes through precisely like a booking agent's sales pitch would.

Hi Mich

I can understand your dislike of the scenario, especially in light of the type of hunting I believe you have supported throughout your life.

That said though you need to take into account that not everyone shares your viewpoints on ethics and what constitutes the type of hunt they would like to experience.

You also need to take into account that for some people and some cultures the idea of shooting a lion over bait, no matter how wild he is is just as reprehensible as shooting one in an enclosure.

Some people come to Africa specifically to get charged. Yes that's right, they simply want adrenalin. Others want to walk 100 miles in 3 days and still turn down a shot at the end of it.
The fact is, each person is free to do as they please with their money and their experience as long as its legal.

I would say that its a pretty good indicator that these hunts have an appeal due to the fact that the industry grew so quickly and has not shown any signs of slowing down yet. Basically a lot of people are quite happy with the hunt, the experience and the trophy they take home. The story they choose to share with their hunting buddies is theirs to tell. But I dont think these hunters should be shamed by those who dont like the practice.

Fact of the matter is, every hunting dollar spent, no matter what the animal being shot, contributes to conservation of range land and conservation initiatives. The way many of the neighboring countries are going, the only way wildlife will survive in a few years is through commercial hunting farms ensuring they still have a value.
Africas instability and political problems is wiping out wildlife in the face of growing human populations and greedy heads of state.

With regards to your comment on reducing the number of lion shot each year out of wild populations I am in agreement. There simply are not enough to satisfy the demand. Second to that fewer clients can afford a wild lion now.
That said, I dont think it is the calling of those in favour of wild lion conservation to try and shoot down captive bred lion hunting. If you dont like it, then dont do it?

With regards to your mention of me as a booking agent. I am a PH and Outfitter,Houndsman and Conservationist. I work with three top PHs and we hunt 90% of the free range land areas available in the country. We preserve hunting land through paid hunting and most importantly we ensure the survival of game species in the areas we hunt.
We book hunts on free range and fenced land, big concessions and small.
I am proud of every hunt I book in Africa, no matter what it is, why you may ask; because every cent we bring in through conservation allows us to keep more land from being turned into worthless rural settlements.

In Africa, anything that does not pay for its own protection, gets destroyed.
On the balance of things I think people should stop fighting with each other over personal prejudice and start working together to stop the greatest foe of all; Human Encroachment.
Yes, thats right. Not the activists nor the bunny huggers, the poachers or Lion breeders are our biggest threat today. Human settlements are killing off wildlife faster than anything else.

Kind regards
Ian

I hunted with Hns De Klerk in 2008. This happened to be the worst and the only bad experience hunting in Africa for me.

Hans would do anything and tell you whatever you want to hear to get money out off your pocket. Hunt somewhere else. Don't be fooled and regret later on.

Ian,

I qualified my post with the words "IMHO" so I am not trying to force that on any one else.

Captive bred lion shoots come in all shapes and sizes. There is no doubt in my mind that the vast majority are in no way representative of the word "hunting" as we have all grown to know it. While many, including you, like to say that we should all support it as we should stand together against the efforts wanting to destroy our hunting heritage I question WHY, when that practice is repeatedly used for the closure of ALL lion hunting by the anti activists??

Again, I disagree greatly with your insinuation that there are not enough wild lion to satisfy the demand. Perhaps we should agree on what the demand is we refer to? For me the demand would be for the ethical and sustainable hunting of a six year old or older male lion, that is free ranging in unfenced habitat. I am confident that there are sufficient wild lion numbers and hunting opportunities to satisfy that demand sustainably if nurtured and managed correctly.

The challenge of conserving Africa's free roaming lion and their habitat is something we should embrace and strive to maintain - it's not time yet to raise the white flag on our unfenced wildlife areas and fence them all in as you suggest. There is room for both to continue indefinitely - at least I believe so.

As to your comment about every cent brought in through selling captive bred lion shoots goes to conservation, I can guarantee that the moment a better option is available eg oil or minerals to name two, conserving wildlife and it's habitat is forgotten. It's only convenient now until a more lucrative option comes around.

Agreed on human encroachment.

Hi Mich

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on a few point there.

One thing that I would however like to raise here is that the "anti hunting" M.O. has nothing to do with what we as hunters do. Whether we shoot 6 week old canned lions in a 6 foot cage with a howitzer or hunt only 50 year old lions with our bare hands wearing nothing but a loin cloth in the wildest of wilds. They want to stop hunting at all costs. Why? Because its a popular emotive cause that is highly profitable for them to exploit.
One way or another they will try and stop anything we try and do.

Please dont misunderstand me in thinking that I am Anti Wilderness hunting and conservation. If I could take out every fence today and keep everything wild I would. But as we speak they are starting to mine National parks and put roads through the middle of wilderness areas that we thought would never fall.
As long as the government owns the land, it will eventually be traded for votes and money.

Anyway, I would really like to share a camp fire with you one day. I don't think we are that different. We just see the world from differing points of view

All the best
Ian

quote:

I hunted with Hns De Klerk in 2008. This happened to be the worst and the only bad experience hunting in Africa for me.

Sorry to hear that Stan.
My comments with regards to his services are from the standpoint of an outfitter and are based purely on the quality of the facilities and delivery of the agreed contract.

quote:

Originally posted by Stan-Elephant Trail:
I hunted with Hns De Klerk in 2008. This happened to be the worst and the only bad experience hunting in Africa for me.

Hans would do anything and tell you whatever you want to hear to get money out off your pocket. Hunt somewhere else. Don't be fooled and regret later on.

Funny this topic came up. I just recently met a married couple who hunted there a couple of years ago for a lion and lioness. The sad fact is that they weigh about 350lbs each, and can't walk out of their shadow. In short, they basically herded them into a corner of the high fence until they had nowhere else to go. When the lioness realized this and turned back towards the "hunters", they killed it. That's all I need to know about this outfit, and canned lion hunting period. Seems disgraceful to my feeble mind.

Guys,

The subject of captive bred lion hunting definitely brings out some strong opinions but I personally don't have a problem with it and I might do one myself even though I've been on 4 "wild" lion hunts and killed two lions. There are very few opportunities to do a tracking hunt for lion and you can have that in RSA if you pick a "quality" experience. You can hunt a 50,000 acre property where the lions have been killing their own food for months, your not hunting a specific lion and the cover is quite heavy making the hunt far more interesting. Given those circumstances I see no difference between this lion hunt and hunting a kudu on a put and take operation anywhere else in RSA.

A hunt for captive bred lion is just that. It is not a substitute in my mind for a "wild" lion hunt. It is though infinitely more affordable than a wild lion hunt and if done right it will be very interesting and even dangerous. It sounds like fun to me and isn't hunting foremost about having fun?

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:

quote:

Originally posted by Stan-Elephant Trail:
I hunted with Hns De Klerk in 2008. This happened to be the worst and the only bad experience hunting in Africa for me.

Hans would do anything and tell you whatever you want to hear to get money out off your pocket. Hunt somewhere else. Don't be fooled and regret later on.

Funny this topic came up. I just recently met a married couple who hunted there a couple of years ago for a lion and lioness. The sad fact is that they weigh about 350lbs each, and can't walk out of their shadow. In short, they basically herded them into a corner of the high fence until they had nowhere else to go. When the lioness realized this and turned back towards the "hunters", they killed it. That's all I need to know about this outfit, and canned lion hunting period. Seems disgraceful to my feeble mind.

Think of the positive side too.

Those two 350 pound hunter would never have had the chance to hunt at all probably.

But, they could do it in South Africa on a farm.

They can hunt whatever they wish, from lions to plains game.

I think that is great, and I have absolutely nothing against hunting captive bred animals.

My only problem is with crooked PHs who make it out to be something else.

State the facts, and anyone who wishes to participate is very welcome to it.

I think t5he South Africa farmers have done a great job of breeding all sorts of animals, and I wish them the best of luck.

quote:

Again, I disagree greatly with your insinuation that there are not enough wild lion to satisfy the demand. Perhaps we should agree on what the demand is we refer to? For me the demand would be for the ethical and sustainable hunting of a six year old or older male lion, that is free ranging in unfenced habitat. I am confident that there are sufficient wild lion numbers and hunting opportunities to satisfy that demand sustainably if nurtured and managed correctly.

+1

So, is there a finite number of lions that can be killed annually in a sustainable hunting situation? If so, do you manage it by first come first serve, random draw, price, or, insert your answer here. this is a question, not an opinion.

Based on this post, I requested information from De Klerks this morning.

I'd like to know more about their operation. They are based out of my favorite area, the Kalahari!

quote:

Again, I disagree greatly with your insinuation that there are not enough wild lion to satisfy the demand. Perhaps we should agree on what the demand is we refer to? For me the demand would be for the ethical and sustainable hunting of a six year old or older male lion, that is free ranging in unfenced habitat. I am confident that there are sufficient wild lion numbers and hunting opportunities to satisfy that demand sustainably if nurtured and managed correctly.

The above is most definitely NOT true at all.

I have been hunting every year, and every year I hunt for lion, and only on rare occasions we manage to shoot one.

And I hunt wild lions.

To say that there enough lions in the wild to meet the demand of hunters is nothing but plain bullshit.

I have hunted with TGT for a number of years - they are supposed to be one of the better managed areas for lion - I never was able to shoot a lion - or even see a shootable one!

I am also a bit suspicious that those who "manage" lions on their own concessions pick and choose who actually gets to even see those "managed" lions.

Are we going to apply the same rules to plains game too?

If we do, we are doomed as hunters.

We are playing into the hands of the antis - this hunt is allowed, that hunt is not allowed - ten NOT allowed list will get longer and longer, and we end up with nothing.

I am a firm believer that those who do shoot captive bred lions know exactly what they are doing.

So what right do we have to stop them??

It is their money, and their choice.

Doesn't South Africa have more lions now than any other country??

What will happen to those lions if they become worth nothing??

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Again, I disagree greatly with your insinuation that there are not enough wild lion to satisfy the demand. Perhaps we should agree on what the demand is we refer to? For me the demand would be for the ethical and sustainable hunting of a six year old or older male lion, that is free ranging in unfenced habitat. I am confident that there are sufficient wild lion numbers and hunting opportunities to satisfy that demand sustainably if nurtured and managed correctly.

The above is most definitely NOT true at all.

I have been hunting every year, and every year I hunt for lion, and only on rare occasions we manage to shoot one.

And I hunt wild lions.

To say that there enough lions in the wild to meet the demand of hunters is nothing but plain bullshit.

I have hunted with TGT for a number of years - they are supposed to be one of the better managed areas for lion - I never was able to shoot a lion - or even see a shootable one!

I am also a bit suspicious that those who "manage" lions on their own concessions pick and choose who actually gets to even see those "managed" lions.

Are we going to apply the same rules to plains game too?

If we do, we are doomed as hunters.

We are playing into the hands of the antis - this hunt is allowed, that hunt is not allowed - ten NOT allowed list will get longer and longer, and we end up with nothing.

I am a firm believer that those who do shoot captive bred lions know exactly what they are doing.

So what right do we have to stop them??

It is their money, and their choice.

Doesn't South Africa have more lions now than any other country??

What will happen to those lions if they become worth nothing??

Yup. Success rates suck in TZ.

Larry, success rates suck even in Zimbabwe.

With all the years I have hunted there, with lion on quota, and us baiting non stop, I have only managed to get a lion on a rare occasion.

Lion in the eye of beholder
No different than here in US where one state has certain rules of hunting and in another state using same rule for hunting will put you in jail
Go figure
Life is good gentlemen

Captive/chattel/canned lions provide asia with its lion bones.

No one is shooting a lioness in south Africa for $5k with free pickup at Tambo, 3 days 5 star lodging ect and a free skin to go with it when the real value is in the bones.

I just don't see Asia's demand going away anytime soon.

South African lion hunting (98 percent) is shooting chattle. It's the scam show of cattle killing lions ect that takes hunters as fools that is a joke.

Mike

quote:

I have been hunting every year, and every year I hunt for lion, and only on rare occasions we manage to shoot one.And I hunt wild lions.To say that there enough lions in the wild to meet the demand of hunters is nothing but plain bullshit.

Are we actually beginning to realise that there could very well be a problem with mature, wild lion numbers, and that the rhetoric on the harvesting of wild cats could be based on facts?

To be blunt, in all my years that I have been hunting professionally I have seen a decline in good quality lion, but I will say this is not the case in all the blocks, concessions I have been fortunate enough to work.

Perhaps we have been taking things too far. Perhaps tougher legislation was required. Quota systems have been poorly set up in certain countries, and I guess with the increased number of hunters seeking wild lion it was inevitable that younger males would be harvested until stricter quota management systems were implemented.

This is just my opinion, but I would be interested to hear from other PH's who have been around the wild lion industry for longer than 20 years, just to see if they concur.

quote:

Originally posted by Neil-PH:

quote:

I have been hunting every year, and every year I hunt for lion, and only on rare occasions we manage to shoot one.And I hunt wild lions.To say that there enough lions in the wild to meet the demand of hunters is nothing but plain bullshit.

Are we actually beginning to realise that there could very well be a problem with mature, wild lion numbers, and that the rhetoric on the harvesting of wild cats could be based on facts?

To be blunt, in all my years that I have been hunting professionally I have seen a decline in good quality lion, but I will say this is not the case in all the blocks, concessions I have been fortunate enough to work.

Perhaps we have been taking things too far. Perhaps tougher legislation was required. Quota systems have been poorly set up in certain countries, and I guess with the increased number of hunters seeking wild lion it was inevitable that younger males would be harvested until stricter quota management systems were implemented.

This is just my opinion, but I would be interested to hear from other PH's who have been around the wild lion industry for longer than 20 years, just to see if they concur.

Neil,

I would say that both PH and Client awareness and a more responsible approach to Lion hunting has led to far less Lion being taken in Tanzania.

We have plenty of good quality Lions in Zambia and if it was not for a few greedy fuckers with over inflated quotas we would still be hunting Lion today.

quote:

and if it was not for a few greedy fuckers with over inflated quotas we would still be hunting Lion today.

Andrew, I think that is true of a lot of our hunting problems today.

Its exactly what happened with Leopard in Namibia. Someone got greedy and an industry got screwed.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:


The above is most definitely NOT true at all.

I have been hunting every year, and every year I hunt for lion, and only on rare occasions we manage to shoot one.

And I hunt wild lions.

To say that there enough lions in the wild to meet the demand of hunters is nothing but plain bullshit.

Saeed, you obviously perceive the "demand" differently from myself and others here. For me, the demand for hunting a wild lion in Africa today should have absolutely NOTHING and I repeat NOTHING to do with success! Any client, PH or Outfitter today, who offers or expects any kind of success rate on the hunting of a 6+ year old male lion in the wild is setting themselves up for dissapointment.

It is now clear - at least in Tanzania - that less than 15% of hunters looking for a wild 6+ year old lion find one. You and everyone else buying a lion hunt in Tz are buying an "opportunity", that's all. The "demand" in this case, is for the opportunity not the success!!

quote:

I am also a bit suspicious that those who "manage" lions on their own concessions pick and choose who actually gets to even see those "managed" lions.

I have heard that same comment from several other past clients.

Does that mean the 85% who come to hunt lion get a refund on the inflated daily rates??

I know at least one outfitter in Zimbabwe who charges "lion" daily rates only if you shoot one.

Otherwise his daily rate for DG applies - which is lower.

Will outfitters in Tanzania apply this rule??