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Charl, My friend who I have broken bread with. While I agree with some of what you said...the man came to AR looking for the truth and he got his answers. That is what is so good about AR. No one crapped on his safari. They gave him honest answers and I believe that is what he was looking for. I maybe totally off base and the OP can correct me if I am wrong...but it seems from reading his posts...that he was was a bit deceived??? Anyway...while I am completely fine with him going on a captive bred lion shoot...if he chooses to. But the deception does go on and on and a clear picture of what he was thinking of buying was what he was questing...and I believe he got good answers. He now KNOWS exactly what his potential hunt is all about. Hope you are having a good time stateside and cheers mate! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Charl, I'm also glad to see you wading into this discussion. Somebody that has first hand knowledge of how a properly conducted RSA lion hunt should go needs to be a contributor on this one as many have a completely incorrect idea that all lion hunts in RSA are conducted in a small enclosure where you basically walk up to the lion and shoot it. That as you know is just not the case. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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Thanks Lane my friend and a good thing about open minded hunters is that we can agree to disagree. I feel some folks here just jump in too quickly with to little information. There is a place for these captive bred Lion hunts, how much ever some of you might disagree with, or deplore them. As long as they are presented true, right and fair and conducted in the same spirit. Till later! Charl van Rooyen Owner Infinito Travel Group www.infinito-safaris.com charl@infinito-safaris.com Cell: +27 78 444 7661 Tel: +27 13 262 4077 Fax:+27 13 262 3845 Hereford Street 28A Groblersdal 0470 Limpopo R.S.A. "For the Infinite adventure" Plains Game Dangerous Game Bucket List Specialists Wing-Shooting In House Taxidermy Studio In House Dip and Pack Facility In House Shipping Service Non-Hunting Tours and Safaris Flight bookings "I promise every hunter visiting us our personal attention from the moment we meet you, until your trophies hang on your wall. Our all inclusive service chain means you work with one person (me) taking responsibility during the whole process. Affordable and reputable Hunting Safaris is our game! With a our all inclusive door to door service, who else do you want to have fun with?" South Africa Tanzania Uganda | |||
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I think that one objection folks, myself included, have to such "hunts" and outfitters offering such "hunts" is that many (most?) outfitters intentionally misrepresent such "hunts". PHASA endorses as the minimum standard for captive bred lion hunts the South African Predators Association Norms and Standards for Hunting Ranch Lions in South Africa. Those standards clearly provide that "[m]arketing material must stipulate that a captive bred lion will be hunted." Despite this unambiguous statement, check just two examples relevant to posters on this thread. Go to the websites for Paw Print Safaris and De Klerk Safaris. While I see lion hunts advertised on both websites, I see no reference to the fact that the hunts will be captive bred lion hunts. Why is that? Are the outfitters unaware of the PHASA and SAPA standards? Was it an oversight? Or were the references purposely intended to be vague in order to create an impression that the "hunt" was something other than what it really is? I think we all know the answer to these questions. The omission of any reference to the "hunts" being for captive bred lions was purposeful and intended to at best obscure the true nature of the "hunt" and at worst to deceive. Mike | |||
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Well I can tell you first hand it is well known the lions are raised lions when you hunt with paw print.He tells you and does not try to mislead anyone.I was told it right from the start and never mislead. Nice try though to start some bs. I have found one thing in life that seems to come true alot. The guys who think everyone is out to scam or mislead people is the first guy to do it to others. When you have some fact to back up your bs that they mislead people they do a post. No go back and help the antis stop hunting by making a big deal of something you dont like or approve of. | |||
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Rather than dodge the question why not just answer it . . . why is the fact that the hunt is for a captive bred lion not mentioned or disclosed on the Paw Print Safaris website? If they are comfortable with the nature of the hunt, why not disclose the nature of the hunt? Mike | |||
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They do when ever someone asks them about a lion hunt.Just maybe he offers other lions also so no need to say unless you pick one at a cost that would be a raised lion.Nothing to hide and I am talking from fact as I did the hunt with my son.No tricks or bs about the lion hunts. You trying to say some law was broken.It this rule in the law book of SA game department office. | |||
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Okay, I will try one last time, what is ambiguous about the statement, "[m]arketing material must stipulate that a captive bred lion will be hunted"? Again, if everything is on the up and up and there is nothing to hide and no intent to mislead anyone . . . why not do what SAPA stipulates and disclose the true nature of the hunt? Mike | |||
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From the PHASA website: ABRIDGED SOUTH AFRICAN PREDATORS ASSOCIATION NORMS AND STANDARDS FOR HUNTING RANCH LIONS IN SOUTH AFRICA (December 2013) Keeping and rearing ➢ Keeping facilities must be positioned far away from general human facilities and amenities to ensure that human imprinting is kept to an absolute minimum ➢ Keeping facilities must meet the detailed specifications stipulated in the unabridged Norms. ➢ No hand rearing is allowed. ➢ “Hands off” management techniques must be adopted and exposure to the human environment must be minimised with regards to feeding, husbandry, medical care and environmental enrichment. Hunting area ➢ The minimum size of the hunting area must be at least 1000 hectares but even larger hunting areas are strongly recommended ➢ The hunting area must comprise natural veldt. No agricultural or crop fields are allowed and there must be no internal fences. ➢ The hunting area must consist of diverse habitat types and not only open grassland. ➢ The hunting area must be self-sustaining with adequate water provision and natural prey species. No domesticated prey species are allowed. ➢ The hunting area must be at least 1 km away from the keeping facilities. ➢ Man-made structures must be limited to the absolute minimum and the area should not be in sight of structures such as buildings, power lines and towers. Release period and the hunt ➢ The release period must be a minimum of seven days. ➢ The lion must be alert, healthy and fully acquainted with the hunting area. ➢ No feeding or baiting whatsoever is allowed. ➢ The hunt must take the form of a walk-and-stalk hunt (exceptions can be made for disabled hunters). ➢ The hunt must meet all relevant legal requirements. Marketing and contract ➢ The hunt must be marketed as at least a seven day hunt. ➢ Marketing material must stipulate that a captive bred lion will be hunted. No misrepresentation may take place. ➢ Catalogue type marketing is not allowed. ➢ A written contract with the client must be prepared when the hunt is booked stipulating inter alia: ➢ the fact that a captive bred lion will be hunted; ➢ the size of the hunting area; ➢ the period of release of the lion that is to be potentially hunted; ➢ the expected time frame of the hunt, i.e. the aforesaid minimum 7 days; ➢ the estimated number of lions in the hunting area; and ➢ the cost of the hunt. Mike | |||
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Again is a law being broke or some association wants it done. Because maybe you like to mislead people that does not mean everyone does.Plus making you happy is not real high on the list of things to do. The hunter needs to be told it is raised and all hunters are told that if they pick that kind of hunt. Now if you have proof someone at paw print mislead or lied even please show the proof. | |||
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One more one last time, in your view does the Paw Print Safaris website meet the criteria outlined above regarding marketing material? Mike | |||
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Let me throw another question into this. Does anyone looking to hunt a lion today is unaware of the fact that practically all lions offered in South Africa are farm bred?? | |||
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Saeed, I am sure it can happen on occasion, but it is not the Norm. The constant claims of "most" SA outfitters misrepresent the hunt is nonsense. This hunt is in demand because someone can hunt/shoot a lion in SA for 15-20k as opposed to 50-100k somewhere else for a wild one. Someone who hunts in RSA for lion knows what the deal is. I find it hard to believe that a hunter, plans, travels to Africa to hunt lion and is such a neophyte that he actually thinks he is going after some rogue Man eater or cattle killer. I have hunted and killed both wild lion and captive bred lions and enjoyed the experiences immensely. | |||
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Has anyone gone on a South African lion hunt that is captive released, canned or whatever you call them without 100 percent success ? Has any walked around the 20k or 5k or 500 acre enclosure and not shot a lion ? Mike | |||
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Even if you assume that is correct, i.e., that all hunters know that South African lion hunts are canned (which is not true since I personally know two hunters that hunted lion in South Africa two years ago that had no idea these were canned hunts until they got to South Africa), that would just further support the argument that South African outfitters ought to just list the hunts as captive bred lion hunts. If it is known to everyone, why not just follow the guidelines? We tend to assume that everyone knows the score regarding hunting lions in Africa. I think that is incorrect. There are plenty of hunters that have never been on a safari, only been on one safari, do not waste endless amounts of time on on line blogs, etc., who I am quite sure assume lion hunts in South Africa are basically wild lions. Think about the television shows about canned hunts in South Africa, why do they try to create a false sense of drama and mystique if everyone knows they are being disingenuous in doing so? They do it because they know there are plenty of hunters and viewers that have no clue what the true story is. Mike | |||
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I did not say "all", I said it was not the norm. I agree with you that it has to be Crystal clear that the animal was captive bred, and it should be stated on all communications/marketing collateral as such. I fervently agree that their are some unscrupulous outfitters but the great majority are honest and standup. In regards to TV shows....well that's another ball game. Due to high costs and lower success rates for a true wild lion hunt, it's just not economical for them to pursue very often. Most captive bred lion hunts shown on TV are either misrepresented as something else or details omitted. They do not show you the electric fence but the Red sands of the Kalahari are a dead giveaway. That's all about entertaining and giving the general audience what they want. The true televised wild lion hunts are few and far between...but there are some. | |||
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No one can convince me that a lion that was bred and raised in captivity and then sold and released into a 20000 acre high fence ranch 1 week (or even longer) before the "hunt" is anything close to a wild lion "hunt" just because of the size of the enclosure. I'm not saying this is what happens ALL of the time but I do believe it is quite often enough the modus operandi. "...Them, they were Giants!" J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset | |||
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Are we going to ask that South African outfitters state that their plains game are captively bred?? | |||
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South Africa is offering the hunting community an endless supply of game animals - most are bred in captivity. Just imagine if all those who hunt in South Africa have no other choice but to hunt in other countries. Most would stay home. | |||
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As are the majority of 300-400-500 and 600+ S.C.I. scoring Red Stags taken in New Zealand on game ranches each year, after being purchased by outfitters from the velvet growers when the stags reach the end of their velvet producing lives. The level of "wildness" of these stags doesn't seem to bother too many. | |||
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The question may have already been raised and I have missed it, but some of the most vocal 'anti' SA lion hunting seem quite happy and content to 'hunt', 'harvest' from a Conservancy in say Zimbabwe and call it a "Wild Lion", yes the paddock is bigger but it is still a paddock..... Yes I have hunted Africa some , Yes I have hunted in South Africa, Yes I have hunted in a Conservancy and Yes I have hunted that elusive Wild Lion and walked away with nothing but terrific memories as could not make the Lion old enough... Scott | |||
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Saeed you beat me to the punch. | |||
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"We" do not specify that lion need to be designated as "captive bred", the South African Predator Association and PHASA does. Just trying to understand why the South African outfitters do not abide by these mandates. If the same organizations required that plains game being similarly designated, then yes, the same question would be pertinent. Mike | |||
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Comparing Predators to Plains Games is akin to comparing Apples to Oranges. The grazers and browsers are born and allowed to grow in their natural habitat. There is no further financial contribution towards their growth other than the occasional purchase of breeding stock. The same cannot be said for the farmed Lions of RSA which are born, bred and fed in a confined space until they are mature enough to be disposed of. Comparing the "hunting" of a farmed Lion to a natural born wild Lion is similar to fishing farmed trout against that wily old bastard that you may spend hours, days or weeks trying to outwit before you nail it. | |||
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It won't make a difference to the antis. It is them that I meant. Once they succeed in lions, they will turn their attention to that. | |||
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Saeed, Of course! .... Anything that involves the killing of God's wild creatures is cannon fodder for God's own morons. Every time a whale or a dolphin gets washed ashore they take time off to mourn its passing. | |||
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Agreed. Not my cup of tea, but who the hell cares as long as the outfitter is straight forward. Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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Fair Game : I have been a professional hunter since 1981 have never hunted a captive bred canned or otherwise lion in my life, neither have I hunted a Lion in South Africa , I have hunted Lion in Tanzania , Mozambique and Botswana and in Botswana we were not allowed to bait , we hunted in the thickest bush you could imagine and had a 50% success. In the past I was anti captive bred Lion shooting but have a better understanding of it now , its not something I would like to be involved with , but I dont condem it. Can I also suggest you be sure of your facts before posting or accusing people of something that is incorrect - all it does is discredit your future comments. Graeme Pollock | |||
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Absolutely Graeme and I do publicly apologise and was confusing your company and your good name with another. I will delete my comment. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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If anyone suggests that there are not enough wild lion in the world to go around, I would suggest that they need to get out more. There are plenty of wild lion in many areas of Africa. In regards to SA lion and the outfitters who are advertising them, let's just say they make used car salesmen in Cleveland look like saints. There is nothing "wild" about their lion. Why they cannot tell the truth when virtually every other informed hunter knows the truth is truly ridiculous. Call it what it is - a hand-fed, well cared for investment cat. If you want to shoot one, go for it, but please don't delude yourself and others into believing that it's a wild cat. At the end of the day with all the other put and take operations in southern Africa, no one should ever, ever, ever be ashamed to shoot a pet cat - especially when you see what many operators are doing behind the curtain. ___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | |||
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Is there wild lion hunts in SA? Around Kruger? When I hunted outside Palabora, there wild lions coming out of Kruger onto some cattle ranches I wonder if it is legal " Until the day breaks and the nights shadows flee away " Big ivory for my pillow and 2.5% of Neanderthal DNA flowing thru my veins. When I'm ready to go, pack a bag of gunpowder up my ass and strike a fire to my pecker, until I squeal like a boar. Yours truly , Milan The Boarkiller - World according to Milan PS I have big boar on my floor...but it ain't dead, just scared to move... Man should be happy and in good humor until the day he dies... Only fools hope to live forever “ Hávamál” | |||
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The Timbavati Hunting Reserve maybe? | |||
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In an attempt to underline the truth in the other posting about our collective AR behavior by Neil PH I'll give a partial reply to this question.  Yes maybe the hunting outfitters offering lions in the so called Greater Kruger Park area, like Timbavati and a few other private nature reserves with unfenced borders next to the KNP, can get away with advertising the lions they offer as "wild". Some purists - as Neil PH said, those that offer really wild lions - will be quick to point out that "all the lions to be found in the Greater KNP hunting areas" have been thoroughly acclimatized to vehicles in the KNP, to where they are free to (and actually do sometimes) roam to. Therefore, these real purists will argue that the lions there are not truly as wild as lions that they offer for hunting in "ENTER COUNTRY NAME HERE"!  Andrew McLaren Professional Hunter and Hunting Outfitter since 1974. http://www.mclarensafaris.com The home page to go to for custom planning of ethical and affordable hunting of plains game in South Africa! Enquire about any South African hunting directly from andrew@mclarensafaris.com After a few years of participation on forums, I have learned that: One can cure: Lack of knowledge – by instruction. Lack of skills – by practice. Lack of experience – by time doing it. One cannot cure: Stupidity – nothing helps! Anti hunting sentiments – nothing helps! Put-‘n-Take Outfitters – money rules! My very long ago ancestors needed and loved to eat meat. Today I still hunt! | |||
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