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What bow, what arrow weight for Cape Buff
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I'm considering the idea of trying for Cape Buff with a bow.

I'm leaning towards a heavy (like 900 grain) arrow, believing in momentum rather than KE for arrow penetration.

What's the best compound bow for heavy arrows? I'd like to push it as fast as I can.


Don_G

...from Texas, by way of Mason, Ohio and Aurora, Colorado!
 
Posts: 1645 | Location: Elizabeth, Colorado | Registered: 13 February 2004Reply With Quote
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"I'm leaning towards a heavy (like 900 grain) arrow, believing in momentum rather than KE for arrow penetration."

Your on the right track. The Mathamatics fomulas are differant ways to to measure the same effect your looking for, one favors spped more than the other. When applied wise they are either is a good tool to use.

The point that often is forgotten is the drag on the broadhead created by the size ofthe arrow shaft.

There's a tread on the Arfican forum here about Ricardo Longoriea's Elephant Bowhunt, he used a compound bow on that hunt. I'd concider his experience vs. the brand loyalty suggetions that are sure to be posted here.

To my understandig only RSA has a legal draw wt. law.

Don't get too hung up on speed. There have been several Buff killed by sub 200fps trad arrows in the last few years.

If I rember properly Monty Browning killed his Moz. Buff with a longbow and he used a fiberglass fishing arrow shaft to build up his arrow wt. to over 1000grs.


If you can't smell his breath, your're not close enough!

 
Posts: 980 | Location: Illinois | Registered: 04 January 2003Reply With Quote
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Thanks, I'll look up the ele post.

I have an older Mathews FeatherMax. Although it is nominally 70 lbs, it now maxes out at only 65. I'm wondering how heavy I really have to go on the draw weight?


Don_G

...from Texas, by way of Mason, Ohio and Aurora, Colorado!
 
Posts: 1645 | Location: Elizabeth, Colorado | Registered: 13 February 2004Reply With Quote
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Don,

I myself am leaning towards a Bowtech product for the very same goal. I think 75 pounds and a heavy arrow will do it.

It will probably be easier for you to work up to 75 pounds but I am not sure my shoulder will be able to accomplish it. I am going to try, but guys are just built stronger all the way around.

Last fall I "exploded" the joint on the top of my shoulder where the clavicle meets the scapula. It made a really gross noise when it went. I was drawing my bow while shooting practice arrows. Ruined my archery deer season. Frowner


~Ann





 
Posts: 17865 | Location: The LOST Nation | Registered: 27 March 2001Reply With Quote
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Ann, That had to be a horrendous noise to hear just before deer season!

I've had several people tell me that the Hoyt Deviator is a good bow for heavy arrows, as well as three (counting yours) mentions that Bowtech makes a good bow for heavy arrows.

The Mathews Safari is a 4-5 year old design. I'm told that an 80 lb Mathews Black Max II will throw a heavy arrow as well as a 100 lb Safari. I'd be tempted to try an 80 lb anything if I could do it cheap! I think your 75 lb bow is a good idea as well.

The problem is that it costs kilobucks to explore each option! There does not seem to be a real "heavy arrow" guru out there who's done all the legwork, though.


Don_G

...from Texas, by way of Mason, Ohio and Aurora, Colorado!
 
Posts: 1645 | Location: Elizabeth, Colorado | Registered: 13 February 2004Reply With Quote
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You might look at Bow River Archery he's a custom boyer in Cochrane Alberta. Now he's into longbows etc. not wheel bows....but he does interesting things with arrows to increase the mass.

hope he can help

the chef
 
Posts: 2763 | Registered: 11 March 2004Reply With Quote
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Don G. - The arrow side is easy.

These days many companys are making arrow shafts from 9grns.(carbon express)to 15grns.(Alaskian safari shafts) grns per inch.

Then there are many ways to ballest your arrows internally. I've used two strands of weed wacker string to add 60 grns to my nitro stinger(a tapered carbon shaft.)

I've heard of guys using braided steel cable too.

On Steelforce's web site they offer a steel ballest rod the attaches to you incert.

The incerts for carbon express carbons are threaded completely through, I've added a small lemght of threaded brass into the end of the incert. (Brass bolt.....cut the head off)

Another option is a aluminum shaft inside a carbon shaft.


If you can't smell his breath, your're not close enough!

 
Posts: 980 | Location: Illinois | Registered: 04 January 2003Reply With Quote
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Donh G

Contact Lochi, he took a buff with bow recently. He know the law concerning the poundage and min arrow weight.
llochner@howden.co.za

Wimpie
Had a good hunt but did not get my KUDU
 
Posts: 166 | Location: South Africa | Registered: 14 September 2004Reply With Quote
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Don,

If you are wanting good speed at a reasonable cost, you might want to look for a used BowTech Black Knight. They are very fast Bows, come to think of it, I think they are the fastest to date.

You may be able to find one on Ebay, I saw some there a while back.

Good Luck!

Reloader
 
Posts: 4146 | Location: North Louisiana | Registered: 18 February 2004Reply With Quote
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Thanks for all the hints, guys.

I have found the Carbon Tech Safari at 15.5 grains per inch, it seems a good place to start.

I think that that arrow with heavy vanes, a 145 or 150 grain Grizzly head and a 35 grain glue in adapter. Brings the total arrow weight to 690-700 grains with a good balance (10% FOC).

For heavier arrows I'd want to use an evenly distributed weight in the shaft (3-4 grains/inch) and a 190 grain Grizzly head.

I'm thinking of avoiding the screw-in point adapter (or screw-in broadheads) due to the tendency to fail at the screw when heavy bone is struck.

My brother Dan is going to try some Forgewood Arrows. These are NOT your typical Cedar arrow. I am staying with carbon arrows for now.

We'll keep you all posted.


Don_G

...from Texas, by way of Mason, Ohio and Aurora, Colorado!
 
Posts: 1645 | Location: Elizabeth, Colorado | Registered: 13 February 2004Reply With Quote
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For heavy wood arrows try The Footed Shaft. I;ve seen these guys at some of the big Trad. shoots. They make footed shafts in hard wood. Like a ash shaft with a purple heart footing.

A footing is a 4-5 splice at the front of the arrow shaft for wt. & strenght. The rest of the arrow is made from a more flexible wood.


If you can't smell his breath, your're not close enough!

 
Posts: 980 | Location: Illinois | Registered: 04 January 2003Reply With Quote
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Here's some info I got over the weekend. These are measured results, not factory numbers. Your results may vary - I am trying to trade information, not start a war about brand names. (I admit I started testing with a heavy bias towards Mathews.) All bows were as delivered from the factory (and not heavily prepped, most were literally out of the box)- no silencers or add-ons on any of them.

Bow weight speed KE Momentum
Hoyt Ultratec,28", 73# spiral 508 260 76.3 0.586
Hoyt Ultratec,28", 73# spiral 646 232 77.2 0.665
Mathews, Switchback, 29", 74# 508 237 63.4 0.534
Mathews, Switchback, 29", 74# 646 223 71.4 0.639
Mathews, Switchback, 30", 73# 508 248 69.4 0.559
Mathews, Switchback, 30", 73# 646 225 72.6 0.645
Bowtech Allegiance VFT, 30",71# 350 320 79.6 0.497
Bowtech Allegiance VFT, 30",71# 508 271 82.9 0.611
Bowtech Allegiance VFT, 30",71# 646 242 84.0 0.694

Projected Performance

Bow weight speed KE Momentum
Projected Bowtech Allegiance VFT, 30",80# 400 320 91.0 0.568
Projected Bowtech Allegiance VFT, 30",80# 508 289 94.2 0.651
Projected Bowtech Allegiance VFT, 30",80# 646 259 96.2 0.742
Projected Bowtech Allegiance VFT, 30",80# 700 250 97.2 0.776


The energy calculations are merely to allow informed estimations of what the bow would do with a different arrow weight - I do not profess that KE dominates arrow performance.

Word-of-mouth has it that Zim requires 85 ft-lbs of energy to hunt Cape Buff, and 105 ft-lbs to hunt elephant!

After completing the testing I decided to order an 80#, 30" Bowtech Allegiance to hunt Cape Buff with. The Switchback was the sweetest shooter (my biased OPINION), followed closely by the Allegiance.

All bows were relatively quiet with these heavy arrows, but the Switchback was quietest by an obvious margin to all observers. (All store techs agreed with this, so it is not just my opinion. But it's still an opinion. I never got to shoot all three bows at the same store, but got Mathews-Hoyt and Mathews-Bowtech side-by-side comparisons.)

I suspect that a 30" Hoyt Spiral Cam Ultra or Turbotec would yield about the same energy as the Bowtech, but I could not find one to shoot my heavy arrows with.

I intend to shoot close to 700 grain arrows, and am leaning heavily towards the Grizzly traditional heads for Cape Buffalo.

I had no problem firing a few shots from the 70-75# bows, but will probably have to work up to the 80# in stages.

It is interesting that only in the last few years has it become possible to get "more energy than pull" from hunting bows.

Please add any information you have as far as measured data that you can to this thread!

Thanks,


Don_G

...from Texas, by way of Mason, Ohio and Aurora, Colorado!
 
Posts: 1645 | Location: Elizabeth, Colorado | Registered: 13 February 2004Reply With Quote
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I'm under the impression that only RSA actuallyhas written requirements.


If you can't smell his breath, your're not close enough!

 
Posts: 980 | Location: Illinois | Registered: 04 January 2003Reply With Quote
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What are the requirements in RSA?

Most Zim PHs are from RSA, so the man I was talking to may have deen misinformed.


Don_G

...from Texas, by way of Mason, Ohio and Aurora, Colorado!
 
Posts: 1645 | Location: Elizabeth, Colorado | Registered: 13 February 2004Reply With Quote
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RSA regs are based on K.E. If I can find a source I'll post it. The one thing I remember is that with Trad. eguipment it would be impossible for "mortal" to hunt DG there. Roll Eyes

I think they have the right idea but not the proper data/information.

With a 600gr. arrow traveling @ 202fps. I blew through a wildebeest. Far from a cape but definnately a tough animal.


If you can't smell his breath, your're not close enough!

 
Posts: 980 | Location: Illinois | Registered: 04 January 2003Reply With Quote
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I have never hunted Africa but I shoot very heavy arrows out of my Oneida. I shoot 2613's they are cut 32" from nock to insert with 150 gr heads and they hit hard. Oneidas love a heavy arrow and you have a nice draw curve without having to roll the cam(s) over. They also have alot of let off.


Windage and elevation, Mrs. Langdon, windage and elevation...
 
Posts: 944 | Location: michigan | Registered: 16 December 2004Reply With Quote
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chain,

Sounds like you have a good recipe. Heavy arrows definitely have their place! thumb


Don_G

...from Texas, by way of Mason, Ohio and Aurora, Colorado!
 
Posts: 1645 | Location: Elizabeth, Colorado | Registered: 13 February 2004Reply With Quote
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Don,

That is some interesting information. I always thought I would need a 90-100# bow to shot Buffalo. I am currently shooting a Mathews LX, 30", 69#, Carbon Express CX400 with 100 gr. Montec 400 gr total, Average Speed 299 fps.

I used this setup in Africa and had no problem up to Eland if the shot was good.

I was going to order the Mathews Safari which I believe is adjustable from 80-100#, but would rather change my LX to 80# (if able) and order a 71#Switchback for everyday use.


Mike
 
Posts: 1092 | Location: Florida | Registered: 14 August 2002Reply With Quote
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Mike,

A man who tested a Mathews Safari says you can beat a 100# draw Safari with an 80# Hoyt Ultratec with Spiral cams. My testing says the Bowtech Allegiance at 80# ought to do the job as well.

Mathews no longer makes the Safari, and only offers 80# limbs for the Black Max II on new purchases. It's worth checking to see if you can get 80# limbs for the LX from Mathews, but I doubt it.

The aggressive cams on the Allegiance and Hoyt (Spiral cam) have only been out a couple of years. Theye really do get more energy than the older bows. (My FeatherMax isn't even close to today's performance.) The aggressive cams can be tough to tune with light arrows, but they seem to yield very useable great performance with the heavy arrows.

I would not bury a lot of money in an older bow. The secret is in the cam design, not in the heavier limbs.

Having said all that, I think any modern 70 lb bow using heavy arrows is capable of killing a Cape Buff cleanly 9 times out of 10. It's that 10th one that is worrisome! Eeker

I forgot to add that a Mathews Safari is on sale for $400 at a bow shop in Iowa. If you are interested PM me and I'll send you the phone number.


Don_G

...from Texas, by way of Mason, Ohio and Aurora, Colorado!
 
Posts: 1645 | Location: Elizabeth, Colorado | Registered: 13 February 2004Reply With Quote
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Don G,

We asked about a year ago and the local proshop said they could get a Safari made to order for about $1,000. Soon after that my friend fell out of a tree stand and has since had three surgeries on his shoulder. It does not look like he will be ready to shot any time soon especially an 80# + bow. The whole program was put on the back burner. We actually where going to be in Namibia at Ha Nore this week!

I think I will look into the Bowtech as you did. Just after shooting a Mathews for the last three years I have been spoiled.

I thought when we checked and in Mozambique had a bow weight minimum and arrow weight minimum. Have you checked any of the different countries rules?

Mike
 
Posts: 1092 | Location: Florida | Registered: 14 August 2002Reply With Quote
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Mike,

I will let you know how the Bowtech works out. I also have bought a Mathews Safari (I hope.) I will get both bows in a couple of weeks and let you know how they work.


Don_G

...from Texas, by way of Mason, Ohio and Aurora, Colorado!
 
Posts: 1645 | Location: Elizabeth, Colorado | Registered: 13 February 2004Reply With Quote
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Don,

Not sure if this was mentioned already but there is a hunting mag in the stands now that details a buff hunt with a bow. After he killed the cape they did some tests. If I remember correctly, heavy won out every time on penetration over speed. Arrows were in the 900-1000 grains and I think velocity was in the 230 range. Also, cut on impact, 2 blade heads out penetrated anything else. To get the arrow weight up there he inserted a carbon arrow shaft into a heavy aluminum. Hope that helps.

Forgot, I think he was shooting a 90 lb bow.
 
Posts: 876 | Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota | Registered: 13 July 2004Reply With Quote
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Prewar70, thanks, I'll try to find it. No luck at the local Barnes&Nobles.


Don_G

...from Texas, by way of Mason, Ohio and Aurora, Colorado!
 
Posts: 1645 | Location: Elizabeth, Colorado | Registered: 13 February 2004Reply With Quote
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Whoohoo! My 80# Bowtech Allegiance is in at the dealer.

I'm going to try to wait until tomorrow and get it after work, but I may not be able to control myself and burn a half-day of vacation to get it this afternoon!


Don_G

...from Texas, by way of Mason, Ohio and Aurora, Colorado!
 
Posts: 1645 | Location: Elizabeth, Colorado | Registered: 13 February 2004Reply With Quote
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Let me know how you like it. I was talking to a dealer the other day and he was showing me one. He said it was the cat's meow and that it has nearly solved the problem of keeping both cams in time. For me, I am waiting on a few gadgets, and I should be shooting my Switchback very soon.
 
Posts: 876 | Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota | Registered: 13 July 2004Reply With Quote
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If you want extreme weight in an aluminum shaft, the "black forest" shafts come in 2220 @400gr and 2440 @900 gr foe just the shaft.

MFH
 
Posts: 148 | Registered: 29 December 2003Reply With Quote
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im using a hoyt hypertec at 95lbs as my every day hunting bow....


my arrows are carbon with 3 grain per " full legth inserts and 145 grain head this toalte comes to 620 grains +/- 1 grain. iv used this et up on 1200 pound bull moose and have taken a few bison with it that were in the 1600+lbs range. and this et up is heavery than a few fellers elephant set ups in poundage and in arrow weight.

i love it for deer hunting aim like a rifle and let loose and the sucker dies like being pole axed.
 
Posts: 2095 | Location: B.C | Registered: 31 January 2002Reply With Quote
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700 nitro,

95# !!!! I'm wearing an ice pack right now from shooting an 80# bow 15-20 times last night! You are mucho hombre to use that all the time. I think my 53 year old shoulder will handle it eventually, but 80# is a big step up from my normal 65#.

Here's the results of last night's testing:

Bowtech Allegiance, 81#, 30" draw, QAD UltraRest, mechanical release:

400 gr, 319 fps, 90.4 ft-lbs;
585.7 gr, 268 fps, 93.4 ft-lbs;
703.5 gr, 248 fps, 96.1ft-lbs;
1411 gr, 177 fps, 98.2 ft-lbs.

Can you get me an exact arrow weight, draw length, draw weight, cam type and velocity for your setup? I'm trying to gather as much info as I can.


Don_G

...from Texas, by way of Mason, Ohio and Aurora, Colorado!
 
Posts: 1645 | Location: Elizabeth, Colorado | Registered: 13 February 2004Reply With Quote
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Don I have a QAD Ultrarest on my Swithback. I think it is a huge improvement in dropaways. How did you like yours?
 
Posts: 876 | Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota | Registered: 13 July 2004Reply With Quote
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im must add to im 23..... that and iv been pulling 70 pounds plus since i was 14.
 
Posts: 2095 | Location: B.C | Registered: 31 January 2002Reply With Quote
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IMHO the QAD UltraRest is the best thing going.

There was a problem with an early production run where they failed to operate in the cold (like 10 degrees cold). If you bought yours last year then freeze your bow (or just the rest) and test it. If it is a lot more difficult to "flick down" when cold send it in for a free replacement.


Don_G

...from Texas, by way of Mason, Ohio and Aurora, Colorado!
 
Posts: 1645 | Location: Elizabeth, Colorado | Registered: 13 February 2004Reply With Quote
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Don G,

Did you purchase the Matthews Safari Bow also?

Mike
 
Posts: 1092 | Location: Florida | Registered: 14 August 2002Reply With Quote
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Yep, it should be here next week.

Leaving no stone unturned in my quest for more
power. Smiler


Don_G

...from Texas, by way of Mason, Ohio and Aurora, Colorado!
 
Posts: 1645 | Location: Elizabeth, Colorado | Registered: 13 February 2004Reply With Quote
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you right or left handed..........ill sell you my left handed bow.
 
Posts: 2095 | Location: B.C | Registered: 31 January 2002Reply With Quote
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Right handed - and I'm through buying bows. I'm bow poor. My last post was an attempt at a funny.


Don_G

...from Texas, by way of Mason, Ohio and Aurora, Colorado!
 
Posts: 1645 | Location: Elizabeth, Colorado | Registered: 13 February 2004Reply With Quote
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I just watched a great show about hunting water buf in australia. At the end they discussed equipment. They say it takes a minimum bow weight of 80# and arrows from 900 to 1000 grains. The buf he killed was HUGE!
 
Posts: 4068 | Location: Bakerton, WV | Registered: 01 September 2003Reply With Quote
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I forgot to ask---short of putting one arrow inside of another, where does one get shafts that heavy?
 
Posts: 4068 | Location: Bakerton, WV | Registered: 01 September 2003Reply With Quote
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MFH listed a couple of choices above. I hate to use aluminun arrows anymore, though, because they won't take the abuse a carbon arrow will.

The heaviest carbon arrows I know of are the Carbon Tech Safari at 15.3 grains per inch. You can get weight sleeves for them that add 3 grains/inch. Then using heavy vanes, inserts and 190 grain Grizzly heads you can get the arrow weight up to 870 grains. I will probably not go over that when hunting Cape Buffalo.

If you can find pultruded shafts to glue inside your arrows you get additional weight (5.7 gpi) and spine, for a total arrow weight of 950 grains.

There are some arrows made in Alaska called Grizzlies (not to be confused with Grizzly broadheads) that claim to be big game arrows, but they are weirdly tapered in OD and ID, with essentially constant grains per inch. At a maximum of 15 gpi they are not heavy enough to be worth the trouble, IMHO.

I am still looking for some pultruded shafts of .240-.245 OD to use as "inserts", but they are hard to find nowadays.

For everyday North American hunting I use arrows in the 520-550 grain range. The shafts are 12 gpi Redhead Carbon Supreme Hunters from BassPro.


Don_G

...from Texas, by way of Mason, Ohio and Aurora, Colorado!
 
Posts: 1645 | Location: Elizabeth, Colorado | Registered: 13 February 2004Reply With Quote
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Roll Eyes I hunt with a 70# recurve and I'm now shooting an 85# recurve preparing for my Buff hunt.

I just turned 48. Wink


If you can't smell his breath, your're not close enough!

 
Posts: 980 | Location: Illinois | Registered: 04 January 2003Reply With Quote
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And NO my knuckles don't drag on the ground.


If you can't smell his breath, your're not close enough!

 
Posts: 980 | Location: Illinois | Registered: 04 January 2003Reply With Quote
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