Boss, I watched a program about the Engish longbows. They had some original bows and stated many of them were from 100 to 150# pulls for penetrating armor. NOW THOSE GUYS DRAGGED THEIR KNUCKLES!

Yes, those were monster draw wts. I do believe that 100 was the ave.

Remember also the Enlish archer trained daily from youth AND they never had to holdthat wt. and aim.

They were mearly field artillary.

Don G

You might want to consider using a wisker buscuit rest, you do not want your arrow to fall of the rest when drawing on a buff at 20 yards.

Wimpie
Life got better after I got my Switchback

Wimpie,

The QAD UltraRest fully captures the arrow until it is released - then it falls away and does not touch it. So hopefully my shakes won't get me killed!

In my experience if you use a whisker biskit (and you practice) then you will constantly be replacing fletching.

Biscuits are good with a little butter and honey. Seriously, I double glue the front edge of the vane and never have a problem with the Carolina Biscuit with Alum or carbon shafts....and they work really well for me.

Don,

I went to Bass Pro today and chekced out the Red Head carbon arrows. They will get me to about 465 grains with 125 gr broadhead....or about 8.8 grains per pound. I will get some and try them but didn't today because I bought a gun and felt like I had spent enough for one day. Those would be 90 grains heavier than I'm currently shooting. I asked the "Bass Pro experts" what weight arrow I needed for deer and got a dumb look from one guy and the onther one said "400 grains would be good"...jury is still out.

Check out Traditional bowhunter magazine this month--they have a great article on arrow weights and broadhead configurations.

the chef

lowrider49, there's nothing magic about about those arrows, so if you are happy with your current set up - save the money until you're getting low on shafts.

BTW, Carbon Express makes those RedHead shafts.

Those shafts are on sale $10 off on the BassPro internet site. Point that out in the store and they will match it.

Chef, I will look on the newstands. (But I never see that mag.)

Don

Don,

I have been using the Redhead shafts for two yrs now in my BowTech. Very happy with them.

Biscuits aren't the best rest for heavy arrows as they weren't designed for that purpose. I got one on one of my bows. I like it, but it wasn't designed to handle heavy arrows. It doesn't like my fish arrows one bit. Occasionally the arrow will separate the whiskers and sink to the ring. Not conducive to accurate shots.

If you compare Momentum and Kinetic Energy to rockets and fuel. Then Momentum is the size of the rocket and Kinetic Energy is the fuel it has to burn.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned in this thread is the front of center balance on your quest for a heavier arrow. This needs to be between 7-18%.

TheBigGuy,

In the past (for deer hunting) I tended to want the balance point to be 8-12% FOC, with 10% being my ideal.

For the 700-800 grain arrows under consideration for Cape buffalo, even when using a 190 grain Grizzly with a 47 grain adapter I can keep the FOC less than 13%. These arrows are over-spined by a good margin for my bow.

I have had several experienced hunters tell me that "you can't get a carbon arrow too front heavy". It seems you believe that, too.

I have never tried to shoot a very front-heavy arrow - like most hunters I tend to stick with what worked for me in the past.

But I'm surely willing to listen to experience. Have you used setups in the 15-18% FOC range? Did they tune and fly well? I tend not to take long shots at game, so my fear of a front-heavy arrow's performance at long range does not make much sense. But I have to ask: did they fly well at longer ranges (40-60 yards)?

It would sure make it easier to just weight up an arrow by changing the tip weight rather than using heavier shafts with distributed weight.

Sorry Don,

I did not mean to mislead you into believing that I prescribed to a front heavy arrow. I was merely parroting a range I have seen around a few times. I know the top and bottom end of that range can cause problems. Especially with broadhead tipped arrows.

Honestly, I strive for the low end of that range as well. I agree 10% is a good target to shoot for with most bows. I have found though that the cam profile can make a difference in the FOC the bow likes. So you may still need to experiment a little. 10% may be ideal for your new setup and it may not. I would definately prescribe to going higher only if you had problems. Since as you state the arrows are a little overspined as is, that would be the safest bet. The only reason I brought the subject up, is ignoring FOC can be a critical mistake. Good to hear you are on top of it.

Here is another trick that may help you if you already have full length fletchings on your arrows and are using a drop away style rest. Try going to four fletchings. Although, it will slow the arrows down and add some weight, it may be just the ticket if you are having problems. (ie. the arrows are tail wagging at long range)

It's been a long time since I shot my 92lb setup. And I can't do that anymore. But with that setup I don't remember having any problem with 50yd arrow flight. That was with about a 13% FOC. It was also with a much less aggressive cam than either the Matthews or Bowtech you are currently experimenting with. Out of those bows that same arrow may or may not have been a problem.

Bottomline, I think you are in for a lot of experimentation.

I have found turning the draw weight up or down is the cheapest way to tune your bow to the spine of your arrows.

quote:

Originally posted by TheBigGuy:

Bottomline, I think you are in for a lot of experimentation.

I have found turning the draw weight up or down is the cheapest way to tune your bow to the spine of your arrows.

Two very good points.....

Looking forward to reading about what you finally come up with. Have fun

Heavy bows are no problem, getting heavy arrows that work for buffalo are a HUGE problem, but it is getting better. Ten years ago when I started working on it, there was nothing I could get on a reliable basis that would work. I can't tell you anything about compounds, I shoot mostly recurves and at 53 I still shoot 85#'s for buffalo, no problems, in fact I LIKE shooting the heavy bows, but you do need to stay in good shape all around.
I recommend to all the buff hunters coming to Australia that they work up arrows that weight at least 900 grains, that is what a lot of experience has shown me works. My arrows are 970 grains with 12% foc, PERFECT for me. I highly recommend a 3-1 STRONG two blade head. The right arrow in the right place is far more important than the bow weight or arrow speed. I have no doubts a 70# bow would do fine on perfect shots, its just that more is better, because things are rarely perfect.

loboga,

Thanks for participating. How do you make your arrows?

I'm having trouble getting anything heavier than 850 grains. That's a Carbon Tech Safari with a 3 grains/inch weigh sleeve, a 190 grain Grizzly broadhead and an 80 grain broadhead adapter, using the heaviest fletches I know of. This should give me an FOC of 13.3%, which is a little further forward than I like.

You obviously have found a heavier shaft than that.

Actually its shaftS. It was a major headache finding something with enough spine and enough mass, but still a reasonable diameter. My arrows are 2219 XX75's with a 35-55 Goldtip inside and a 190 Grizzly with a 110 steel adaptor. They are a pain to make, I wrap a cotton sewing thread in a spiral around the GT before I push it in, that makes it a tight fit, otherwise it will "buzz" in flight, it also raises the spine a bit. These are the best flying arrows of anykind I have ever shot, I don't know why, but they will just shoot bullet holes through paper at five feet. I can shoot good groups with them at 35 yards WITH NO FLETCHING. I have at least $500 worth of failed buffalo arrow experiments here. Some of them work great, but getting them is a problem.

loboga,

I may be a dreamer, but I keep looking for a setup based on a carbon arrow, or ar least a carbon outer arrow. They are just so much more durable during practice and travel than the aluminum arrows.

When I run your setup on my "heavy arrow" spreadsheet I get 993 grains and 16% FOC for a 30" arrow with feathers. Is your 3555 full length? Do you use vanes or feathers? How do you keep the 3555 from sliding around?

Yep, it's easy to waste $500 experimenting with these heavy arrows!

Thanks,

The arrows are 30.5" bop. The 35-55 is full length and thread wrapped so it dosn't move at all. I use 4, 5" feathers. They are right at 970 grains and right on 12%foc. The heads with the adaptor and bushing end up right at 300 grains. The arrows are actually an inch and a half or so longer than I need them, but thats where everything came together, if I cut them shrter I would have had to make the points heavier to bring the spine back down.
I don't subscribe to the theory that you can't add to much weight to the front of a carbon arrow. I tried all the things that people were saying worked and they DID NOT work. I loaded up the front of carbon shafts to 16%foc and they bareshafted almost vertically into the backstop at 20 yards. I tried adding all kinds of loose stuff to the inside of shafts and I got erratic flight and reduced spine, things that others were saying didn't happen. The only carbon shaft I know of that my work for you is the GrizzlyStik from Alaska Bowhunter Supply. He's got one version that weighs something like 15 grains to the inch. We had two hunters take buffalo with them this year and they worked well. They said the finished arrows were right on 900 grains, but I don't know the head weight.

Hey Don, I wish I had read this thread earlier last month.

If you are up for spending more money, I would suggest you look at APA archery from Canada. Their Black Mamba bow will pretty much blow away Mathews, Bowtech, Hoyt, and pretty much the rest of the bunch.

I skimmed the entire thread and didn't see where anyone suggested an old but excellent technique on how to get a heavier arrow:

FILL IT WITH SALT! Then test weigh all of your arrows for uniformity.

I hunted with a bunch of guys from AZ back in the 90's that elk hunted annually. The big trick was to fill the arrow with salt to gain wt. Sure as heck worked for them.

APA archery makes one of the best rests on the market too.

I got a first hand look at this setup in Nebraska this past week while we were all going after our antelope. Kiviok was shooting his at 60 pounds, 28 inch draw and his arrow was IBO weight. Speed was about 318 fps. I was impressed. Impressed enough to where I called them today and placed my order.

Check out the bow: Black Mamba

As it turns out, Kiviok, our hunting partner, not only killed the first antelope with this new bow, he also made the very first kill ever with it. Kind of nice to make history.

After speaking with the guy at APA, they will post Kiv's picture on the site as soon as possible.

I may have to wait a bit though. The APA guys are going elk hunting this week.

IBO on this bow is about 340. I do not know of another bow that equals this IBO speed off hand.

Try the salt, let me know what happens.

I believe the specialty bows from Bowtech (Black Knight)and Mathews (Black Max) are rated at "330+", but they are almost unshootable and (in the case of the Black Max at least) very problem prone.

The low brace height is a consideration for a hunting bow also, as well as the fact that they don't come heavier than 70#.

Ask Kiviok if he can get me a speed with an AMO weight arrow (9 grains/#), I'd like to see how it stacks up.

The outfitter I'm going with specifically told me NOT to use salt. He's seen these lose integrity on a buff's rib and spill salt all over the hide - with poor penetration and a nasty follow-up session that always involves rifles. I promised not to use anything that wasn't epoxied in place!

quote:

Originally posted by loboga:
The arrows are 30.5" bop. The 35-55 is full length and thread wrapped so it dosn't move at all. I use 4, 5" feathers. They are right at 970 grains and right on 12%foc. The heads with the adaptor and bushing end up right at 300 grains. The arrows are actually an inch and a half or so longer than I need them, but thats where everything came together, if I cut them shrter I would have had to make the points heavier to bring the spine back down.
I don't subscribe to the theory that you can't add to much weight to the front of a carbon arrow. I tried all the things that people were saying worked and they DID NOT work. I loaded up the front of carbon shafts to 16%foc and they bareshafted almost vertically into the backstop at 20 yards. I tried adding all kinds of loose stuff to the inside of shafts and I got erratic flight and reduced spine, things that others were saying didn't happen. The only carbon shaft I know of that my work for you is the GrizzlyStik from Alaska Bowhunter Supply. He's got one version that weighs something like 15 grains to the inch. We had two hunters take buffalo with them this year and they worked well. They said the finished arrows were right on 900 grains, but I don't know the head weight.

loboga,

First off let me say I'm not questioning your statements. I am trying to work my model around so that it reflects reality. I'm not at all surprised that our weights differ, but I need to get a handle on the FOC. Can you tell me how you measure it? Do you use just the shaft length to define center, or do you include the head and/or nock? I always use just the shaft length, because that seemed to match what the GoldTip calculator put out. I used 30 grains for the 2219 insert, and 20 grains for the nock.

I have never done bareshaft tests except in paper at a few yards, but I'd like to keep my arrows at 10-12% FOC anyway if I could. I think that if the statement "you can't get a carbon shaft too front-heavy" has any truth to it at all, it only applies to mechanical release compound bows.

Don, the whole head end combination, including the head, adaptor and busing come out right at 300 grains even. I do a bit of regrinding on the Grizzly's so they are probably about 180 grains and I think the bushings are only about 15 grains. Also without getting my grain scale out I don't believe the nocks weigh more than 5-10 grains. I DO include the length of the broadhead in the foc equation, since it IS part of the finished arrow, I measure from the string groove to the tip of the head. As long as you do it the same all the time it dosn't really matter, its only to compare it to other options. I've tried all kinds of combinations and some of my hunting arrows are down at 9.8% foc, but I find that 12% is PERFECT for me and the way I shoot.
I likewise would NOT use salt or anything else loose inside the shaft. A few reasons are as you said, it weakens the shaft, it reduces the spine, even packed tightly it will end up shifting around and causing erratic flight, in the current world conditions, I wouldn't want to have customs finding white powder inside my arrows, you might not get that straightened out until your hunt was over, also putting loose stuff like that into a shaft will cause it to "noodle" upon impact reducing penetration.

Don, Kiv won't know AMO, at least I don't think.

The best thing to to is go to the APA website and give them a call in a week or so. The guy I spoke with said he's leaving this Sunday to join the boss for an elk hunt.

I suspect they will not be back until a week from Monday.

Doc,

If they are like every other bow manufacturer, they just go HUH when you ask for heavy arrow data - but I will try.

Don

loboga,

The FOC difference was just in the way we measure - so no mystery. Thanks for all the data.

How does a GA boy wind up guiding water buff hunts?

i have a bunch of 160 grn and 190 grain 2 blade ribtec trad braod heads if any one is interested 30$ takes the lot pm me if interested

quote:

Originally posted by calgarychef1:
You might look at Bow River Archery he's a custom boyer in Cochrane Alberta.

Chef, where is this guy located, do you know? Does he have a shop here in town?

Frans

You should have been around 10 years ago when I was calling EVERY shaft manufacturer in the world looking for buffalo arrows.
I visited OZ nine years ago and had to hunt while I was there, I though a water buffalo hunt would be a good warm-up for cape buffalo, turns out it is the other way around. Anyway I got an education that first trip and went back the following year to make good. The outfitter asked me if I knew anybody that would be interested in guiding bowhunters(hint,hint) and I said the only one I knew was me. So I have been spending about three months a year there ever since.

loboga,

What's the season in OZ? I keep hoping a business trip will take me down there!

Speaking of shafts, the Grizzly shafts from up in AK don't seem worth the effort. My twin brother Dan got a half dozen to play with. Too big at the fat end, and weird sizes for all the inserts, knocks, etc. His shafts came in with the wrong inserts. Last I heard they'd said they would ship him some, but were having supplier problems.

I like the sound of the Carbon Tech Safari shafts. Normal ID of .243 with an OD of .325. (Just slightly smaller than the Grizzly broadheads. Weigh the same as the Grizzly shafts from AK (or slightly heavier at 15.5 gpi). Only trouble is CT only makes them twice a year. But mine are in at Lancaster!

Like I said, everyone worries about the heavy bows, they are the easy part, the arrows are the hard part. I've used the GT "Big Game 100+" in Africa and on muskox, but shooting it from an 80# recurve I couldn't weight it up to more than 700 grains. The season for water buffalo in Australia runs basically from April to November(the dry season), but most hunters come from May to September(the middle of winter).

quote:

Originally posted by loboga:
You should have been around 10 years ago when I was calling EVERY shaft manufacturer in the world looking for buffalo arrows.
I visited OZ nine years ago and had to hunt while I was there, I though a water buffalo hunt would be a good warm-up for cape buffalo, turns out it is the other way around. Anyway I got an education that first trip and went back the following year to make good. The outfitter asked me if I knew anybody that would be interested in guiding bowhunters(hint,hint) and I said the only one I knew was me. So I have been spending about three months a year there ever since.

Rick - Did you or any of your clients ever use the Safari shafts from Alakian bowhunting supply?

Frank

Frank,

My brother got a half-dozen of the Safari Shafts from ABS. They are 3/8" diameter at the big end, which makes them bigger up front than even the Grizzly tips. That does not look good for penetration. They are weird inside diameters front and back so that only the custom inserts and nocks from ABS will fit. The wrong inserts came with Dan's arrows, and the replacements have not arrived 8 weeks later. So he has not yet shot one. For all this weirdness, the weight is only 15 grains/inch and is constant from front to back (does not graduate with the taper.)

I'll never mess with them after hearing all that. Carbon Tech makes a run of CT Safari shafts twice a year that weigh 15.5 gpi, are .325 OD and normal .243 diameter nocks and inserts fit. Mine have been shipped. I will let you know how they work out.

[Sorry for the repeated data. I thought it sounded familiar, but I suffer from CRS!]

Yes, we had two hunters using the Grizzlystik arrows this year with 80# compounds. One of them actually got a passthrough on a smallish bull, the other just wasn't a very good shot, so you really couldn't judge the shafts. I could have got some for free to test out, but didn't just for the reasons posted by Don_G.

Don - I've been shooting Griizzly sticks into foam in the back yard for about a year now. I'm also shooting some "light" Maple arrows(880gr.)

Rick and I have talked about this on several occassions on the Bowsite. I have my own concerns about shaft diameter. I think arrow drag as it penitrates the animal is the most under-rated part of the equasion.

Frank,

I think that the most under-rated part of the equation is arrow-weight (momentum). Next most under-rated is the broadhead design.

Finally (for all us "smart-guys") you get to the under-rated importance of shaft drag!

I know that you, me and Rick already buy into the first two without question, so for people like us your statement is true.

There are a whole lot of "speed rules" archers out there who bow hunt. IMHO they are not yet bowhunters!

One of my very first criteria when developing buffalo arrows was a small diameter. The best I could do at the time was the 2219, which is 11/32". It is the same as the ferrule on the 190 Grizzly, which was what I had set as the absolute maximum. I think a shaft bigger than the ferrule on the broadhead is just poison! I did try A LOT to come up with a smaller diameter shaft, that met all my other specs and just couldn't do it. I do know these arrows work fine and have shot them all the way to the nock into water buffalo, BUT if I could get a smaller diameter shaft to shoot as well as these I think I could get away shooting a much lighter bow.

You could alway try the trick I used to get the shaft weight uo to the 950gr or so. epoxy .22mag projectiles inside the shaft. You will need to do this prior to assembling either the nock taper or the thread adaptor, as you will need to use something inserted down the inside of the shaft to accurately position the projectiles.
It might be worth a shot?
Mind you, I took my Buff (asiatic) with a #100 traditional Longbow, and P.O.C shafts. That was the tough part, training to draw a #100 bow. Ouch! And finding a batch of P.O.C that was up to the task. Carbon is so much easier to work with.
Next time (if ever) it will be a compound.

Cheers, Dave.
Non Illegitium Carborundum

Having said that, loboga's point is very relevent, which is why I used P.O.C., Using wood allowed me to taper the footed shafts. Anything that protrudes past the broadhead in a sharp shoulder will seriously inhibit arrow penetration.
For that reason you could try a thinner diameter carbon with thicker walls (if you can find some!) or try tapered wood. The BIG problem with wood, as everyone knows, is that it is not as consistent as either carbon or alloy. But, when you shoot a lot of pigs (which always roll, and wreck your arrows anyway) it sometimes pays off.

Cheers, Dave.
Non Illegitium Carborundum

quote:

Originally posted by Don_G:
Frank,

I think that the most under-rated part of the equation is arrow-weight (momentum). Next most under-rated is the broadhead design.

Finally (for all us "smart-guys") you get to the under-rated importance of shaft drag!

I know that you, me and Rick already buy into the first two without question, so for people like us your statement is true.

There are a whole lot of "speed rules" archers out there who bow hunt. IMHO they are not yet bowhunters!

Don - I guess that's realitive to whewre you have the conversation. Talk to Compound guys and you tend to get speed talk. Usuallythe 1st question asked about a compound bow is "how fast is it". If you talk to trad guys you hear the question. "How does it shoot" Re: smoothness of tyhe draw" Trad guys talk endlessly about arrow wt.

Hence, my comment. I do get your point....many people don't think penitration to the next level.

I have a friend who hunted extensively in Southern Africa using his long bow (118 lb pull). I know he bagged at least two white rhino with it and hundreds of other animals. His belief was also to use a very heavy arrow but I remember one time I was watching him experiment that he tried a really heavy shaft and he couldnt get it to stabilize. I think he was sliding a piece of alum tubing inside an alum shaft and using this last time I talked to him. Wished I could remember how much the shaft weighed but my memory escapes me. He did publish some papers on broadheads for african animals and did a lot of field work for South Africa game department to decide what min requirements archery equipment should meet. You may find some of his work online. PM me if you would like his name.

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