Canuck,

Hell, I don't know -- it's probably the conversion to Canadian fps.

Those are very good numbers, he must have it tweaked up just right. The Switchbacks I tested were "out of the box".

Now you gotta get close enough to kill something with it. Doesn't quite have the range of your 6.5 Gibbs!

I have had very good luck by taking BEAMEN PC SHAFTs and gluing it inside a ACC 3-60.With three five inch feathers and topped with a Steelforce 210 it weighs about 960 grains.I have managed to get passthroughs on Cape Buffalo, water buffalo, and giraffe.

I think you are on the right track Don.You are considering most all of the critical factors.I agree that they all play a part and the effects while individually small, are additive.

One thing I have not seen mentioned often and not at all in this debate is lubrication.I have applied a thin oil of some type to my broadhead and the last foot of my shaft on several occasions and while I cannot doccument better penetration I think it probably helps.

As to the statement that you cannot have too much weight on the front of a shaft, I cannot swallow that whole.I do , however believe that the standard formulas for ideal FOC may not apply when talking about very heavy and stiff arrows.An arrow made heavy by filling it with salt will certainly be spined differently than one made heavy by epoxying another shaft inside it.How can both be limited by the same FOC #'s when their spine is so different even though they carry the same weight.

I am sure enjoying the thread and look forward to other ideas and options as this continues.

eyedoc

Also Don, I had a Mathews Safari model and at 100 lbs draw weight it did not duplicate the performance I got from my Hoyt Deviator at 83 lbs.I believe that duplicates what you have heard from other sources.

Don_G: Never hunted anything bigger than a whitetail , but here is my 2 cents. I am a
Bowtech nut but there is a new bow out by
Elite Archery called a G 500 . I is put out by
a man who worked for Bowtech. It is fast and a
very well built bow. Give them a look and see
what you think. Good luck with what ever bow
you get and be safe on your hunt.

quote:

Hell, I don't know -- it's probably the conversion to Canadian fps.

Oh you are the funny one.

I think I'll just stick to telling everyone its because of my perfect shooting form.

Put 50 arrows through it last nite...it is a sweet shooting bow and worth every one of the many scheckels it cleaned out of my wallet. Thanks for the recomendation/advice! Now we'll see how I do with it. It sure does feel like a 6.5 Gibbs compared to my recurve! In 8 years of recurve hunting I only managed to stick a few grouse. Maybe a cape buff would be a good place to start with a compound?

Cheers buddy,
Canuck

I was fast asleep while this thread was active - in African time as usual.
Have only read the question - first posting - and here is my 2c.
I used a 5 years old Hoyt ViperII set on 80pds. My knife-maker buddie made me some sturdy 2-bladers. Total arrow weight was 602gr and at 245 ft/s that just made the minimum requirement of 80 ftpd as set by Natcon of Mpumalanga is South Africa. It 15 yards it penetrated the overlapped ribs, went through the heart and hit the opposite ribs.
Lochi

Lochi,

I think I talked to you about your hunt. You had the wounded/aggro cow that you had to wait out until she got up, right? I'm jealous, as that was a good stalk and a great shot! I don't intend to bow hunt one that's already on the prod!

I leave in a few weeks for a TZ buff hunt. I am going to try for one with a bow if it looks do-able.

My setup is:

31" draw, 83# Bowtech Allegiance, QAD UltraRest, S-Coil stabilizer, Cobra sight, custom peep, Carbon Tech Safari arrows, 5" vanes, 100 grain steel BH adapter + 190 grain Grizzly ElGrande BroadHead. Total arrow weight is about 915 grains at 220 fps for 99 ft-lbs.

Eyedoc,

I bought my 100# Mathews Safari from you, and NO it doesn't outperform my 83# Allegiance!

Hunting Buff with a bow:

I have not done this yet but I have hunted and harvested a Costal Brown bear and a Mountain Grizzly along with 22 black bears all with a bow. I was going to Africa a number of years ago and tried several bows 80-110 pound draw weights. I formerly had an extremely strong upper body. The archery dealer put an 80 pound bow in my hands and i drew, held and shot it with ease. He then gave me a 90 pound bow to shoot. Again I drew, held, and shot it with relative ease. He put a 100 pound bow in my hands and I drew and held it with some effort. My ego and his curosity kicked in. The dealer handed me a 110 pound custom PSE. I drew it with considerable effort. Then I felt a sharp pain from my shoulder down my back. I tore a muscle from the bone in my back. This was in 1996. I still have pain from this event. I shoot a 61 pound single cam compound now with 428 grain arrows traveling 292fps. With common sense shots it has provided me with passthroughs on bears shot. I shoot fixed three blade 125 grain broadheads. From my past planned hunts if memory serves me correctly some of the African countries require 80 pound minimum and fixed 2 blade broadheads and 750 grain arrows for dangerous game. They do this for a reason. One of my friends holds the world record buff with a bow. I remember seeing his video. The arrow passed through broadside at 43 yards. I thught he had missed the buff from watching the video. Buff hide and ribbs are about 1/2" each and very tough. I recomend you hunt responsible and safe therefore you should follow the 80 pound 750 grain requirements.
Longshot

Longshot,

What kind of bow are you shooting now?

It has the best pull-to-energy ratio that I have ever heard of.

Getting 81 ft-lbs from a 61 lb bow is quite a trick.

Well, the Allegiance is tuned, the Grizzly broadheads are sharpened. The sights are set. All the ragged fletches have been replaced. The BHs and field tips print right on each other.

I just need to pack it all up tomorrow, then it sits and waits a week while I go on a last business trip before the hunt.

One week from tomorrow it's wheels up for Tanzania. I reckon if I fail, that it will be a very public failure!

Thanks for all the discussion, advice, and help!

heeheeheeheeheee...giddy as a school girl!


Canuck

Here's my first 5-shot practice group at 30 yards from this morning's session with the Allegiance.



I usually don't shoot multiple arrows at the same target, as I ruin too many that way.

I managed not to ruin any this time, and shot singles after this group. The heavy 900 grain arrows were spinning the target around since I was shooting so near the edge. The target is about 18" square, so the deer is about half-size. I was trying to shoot straight up the front leg like you need to do with a cape buff, and over-compensated a bit for my tendency to shoot it like a white-tail. With dots the group is right on the money.

good luck I am curious how things will work out.

Thanks, and me. too!

Don,

I wish You good luck and I do approve opting for the Allegiance. Thanks to You I bought one.
Here is the kit I used in the CAR in february this year.



Good luck
jb

Jean,

I think I recognize the broadheads on the right (Magnus in two weights?).

I like Magnus broadheads, but the Grizzlies are tougher and I think will break bone better.

What is the broadhead on the left?

Here's some penetration tests from TZ. First the arrow. A full length Carbon Tech Rhino Safari with a 190 grain Grande Grizzly on a 100 grain case-hardened steel adapter.



Closeup of a practice tip (does not have the Tanto Tip ground onto it.):



Some penetration test results on : (The PH thought this buff was about 13 years old, if I remember correctly.) (Chris, was this my first buff - on LA1?) The arrow weighed 900 grains, shot from an 83# Allegiance.



Note that the arrows that dodged ahead penetrated less. (I believe all arrows were launched from the same point.)






Here's what caused the lack of penetration on the one arrow: the arrow dodged forward when it skidded on a rib, wrenching and bending the adapter. (I think we pulled the glue-in adapter out when extracting the arrow.) Another test - where I do not have pictures - showed that dead broadside is the best angle for assured penetration: cutting the overlapping ribs rather than sliding between them.



That bend is at the case-hardened steel adapter! I am working on a 7075 T6 glue-in-glue-on adapter to try for the penultimate in strength. The ultimate is Titanium, which costs $40 a foot for 3/8 bar stock! (That's about $6 in material per adapter!)

quote:

(Chris, was this my first buff - on LA1?)

Correct.

We don't have any stills of the other buff you did penetration tests on, but we have video. I could capture some stills or even post up some clips for ya in a few days (when I am back home).

Cheers,
Canuck

quote:

Originally posted by Don_G:
Jean,

I think I recognize the broadheads on the right (Magnus in two weights?).

I like Magnus broadheads, but the Grizzlies are tougher and I think will break bone better.

What is the broadhead on the left?

The bh on the left is a Steel force 21533
.048 Stainless Steel
1" x 2 3/16"
210 grains
Ferrule Stainless Steel
No bleeders

The one in the centrer is a Zwickey.

I'll have a look at the grizzly. I was wondering : is this broadhead this long that it provides sort of a bigger lever effect, this way binding the adapter (now I understand what is an adapter)
My question : sure the strenght of the adapter is primordial but what about the strenght of the insert, especially my cherished HIT insert on my Easton axis?

Congs Your pics are very conclusive. The quartering away shots are impressive. If my memory serves, this shot is prohibited even with a very large calibre when using a rifle, for the fodder in the paunch would suck up most of the bullets. Not the case with Your arrows.

But it makes me shiver : there is inconstancy between the arrow that almost got thru and the one that bumped out. It makes seriously think twice.
thanks
jb

Actually, Chris, I believe I shot up three carcases: Your LA1 buff, my LA1 buff, and your third buff (your second buff on LU5).

My memory is no longer perfectly clear on all the shots, but I believe that the first test was 100% fatal shots (broadside into the heart area from 20 yards), then this test, which was 80% fatal shots at a slight quartering angle, then the last test was 60% (3/5) fatal shots quartering from the rear at 20 yards, and 1/1 fatal shots broadside at 50 yards.

So my recommendation is to only shoot Cape Buffalo from a square broadside presentation - and use the best equipment you can get. Those 13-14 year-old buffs were harder on arrows and heads than 3/4" plywood. The only failures were when the heads skidded on the ribs and tried to change the direction of the arrow to dodge beteween the ribs. This either killed the momentum and limited penetration amd/or bent the tip and/or adapter and really limited the penetration. The ones that cut the ribs always went straight and deep.

Maybe you'll correct my memory from the video.

Jean,

I do not think I tried any shots trhough the rumen (paunch). The camera angle is probably fooling you. The ones shown are pretty much from the back of the lungs to the front of the lungs. The paunch is on the left side, and a little further back. The one that went through to the fletches was further forward, through the heart. Interestingly, both PHs wanted me to go for the double-lung rather the heart. Both PHs wanted me to go from a rear quartering angle until they saw the tests.

I do not know of a commercially available head/adapter that is stronger than the steel ones I used. I have not tested the custom 210 grain SteelForce with the stainless screw-in adapter, though - and it sounds liek one of the best commercial screw-in setups.

I will try to take some photos of some commercial adapters I have tested.

quote:

Actually, Chris, I believe I shot up three carcases: Your LA1 buff, my LA1 buff, and your third buff (your second buff on LU5).

I know...when I wrote "buff" I meant it in its plural sense.....is it more correct to say I have video of the other buffs?

Your memory is close...of course, mine is crystal. Oh yeah, it helps when you just finished watching it on video.

The first buff was my LA 1 bull. You shot it 3 times, full broadside. The first one zipped through the heart and was stuck on the fletching on the FAR side of the bull. Almost a complete pass through. The second shot hit the spine. The arrow was sticking out almost a foot on the far side and had about 8" sticking out on the near side. The third shot hit the scapula and went through, stopping at the scapula on the far side. The first arrow you pulled through to retrieve, and did the same with the one that went through the spine. The last shot you pulled out backwards...it easily came out of the far scapula and then you rotated the BH to go through the slot on the near scapula and it popped out like nothing. I think thats probably where the easy retrievals pretty much ended.

I wasn't there for your LA 1 buff, and there is no video of it. All I know about it is your pics above.

For my LU 5 buff, you shot it 3 times from below, 18 steps, full broadside -- but, the near shoulder of the buff was further forward than the far one, kinda like it was walking and had just stepped forward with the near leg. I didn't watch this part of the video closely, but all three shots were killers. One (I think the third shot) went through the near scapula and buried deep into the far one (I think that BH stayed inside). The other two (the first two shots) just hit ribs and penetrated most of the way through...just fletches and a couple of inches of arrow sticking out (Philip did a good job of trying to get those ones out...the overlapping ribs were very clear while doing the extraction). Then I think you shot two more from below, on more of an angle -- not on the video, my memory is fuzzy on this part. Then you shot a few arrows from the other side (uphill, quartering away a bit) so you could stretch out the distance (40 to 50 yards). One of them stuck in the neck pretty good (I think that one deflected on a branch? or was the one with the damaged fletching that made the buzzing noise?), and I believe another penetrated the ribs into the far scapula (I think)....we don't have that part on video. (Also a couple arrows went low because we underestimated the distance.)

Cheers,
Canuck

Thanks, Canuck,

I think you have it right.

The arrow that didn't penetrate was one of the "more quartering" arrows.

I remember skipping the first arrow from 50 yards across the ground - it bounced into the neck, I think. That was the first 50 yard shot I ever tried with that bow.

The arrow that was on target from 50 yards was a kill shot - nearside ribs into far scapula. I think we quit then so I would have a good arrow left if I got a shot opportunity.

Hell, I'll just wait for the video.

quote:

I think we quit then so I would have a good arrow left if I got a shot opportunity.

That sounds about right, because about 2 minutes later that OLD scrum-cap bull almost walked into us!

Cheers,
Canuck

Jean,

I have had many inserts bend in my testing, but the adapters tend to bend first. The best "standard insert" I have found are the ones from Carbon Express. They are made from good quality aluminum - I think 6061 alloy.

To answer your question about "steel adapters".

You probably got your Magnus broadheads with aluminum adapters in them from the factory. You can also buy Magnus broadheads with no adapters ("traditional broadheads").

The taper in traditional broadheads is standardized to 5 degrees, and you can buy the adapters separately and glue them in yourself.

You can buy the screw-in steel adapters here. I case-hardened these steel adapters as they came from the factory dead soft. They also sell aluminum and brass adapters.

Here is a glue-in-glue-on brass adapter from the same place. These adapters replace both the insert and the screw-in broadhead adapter These brass adapters bend fairly easily, but brass is absolutely the wrong material to make them from!

I have had a mechanical engineer at work draw up a similar glue-in-glue-on adapter made from 7075-T6 aluminum, which is as strong as most steels and will weigh about 70 grains. These adapters will have a .246 inch diameter shank that fits many "standard hunting" Carbon Express and Carbon Tech arrow shafts. Since it is solid and one piece it will be about 4 times stronger than am aluminum insert with a steel broadhead adapter.

If you do use a standard insert with a screw-in adapter, be sure to tighten the broadhead as tight as you can get it using a wrench and a shaft gripper. This helps prevent bending at the screw-in adapter on traditional heads, or at the ferrule on newer screw-in broadheads.

The ferrule on the standard SteelForce broadheads are made of 7075 aircraft aluminum, which is much stronger than the 6061 that most manufacturers use. I do not know what alloy the stainless steel ferrules of the 210 grain SteeForces are made of, but I will ask.

As usual, I get into great detail on this subject - after seeing the failure of even a case-hardened steel adapter on a Cape Buffalo carcase you understand why.

I will let you know when (or if) I get the custom adapters made.

I apologise for the English, but I am absolutely incapable of conversing in French - even about non-technical subjects!

Don

Thanks for all this valuable informations. In France we can have most (90%) of what You get in the States but a couple of months later. The least searched items aren't available or are not advertised rarities. Most of the time we ordered at Cabelas. Thanks for the link to 3rivers archery equipment. Very interesting items not currently offered by Cabelas. Not that I am using cedar shaft, but when one is looking for the toughest arrows, that's a place worth visiting.

quote:

I have had a mechanical engineer at work draw up a similar glue-in-glue-on adapter made from 7075-T6 aluminum, which is as strong as most steels and will weigh about 70 grains. These adapters will have a .246 inch diameter shank that fits many "standard hunting" Carbon Express and Carbon Tech arrow shafts. Since it is solid and one piece it will be about 4 times stronger than am aluminum insert with a steel broadhead adapter.

IMHO it's the best possible solution, a strong adapter with a shank fitting the shaft. This one piece device could be made from a tough aluminium or even steel. I am in if You want to have made a product line or a couple custom-made .
Previously I havent' had considered the risk of using alu insert and I believed a tight alu adapter would play the trick.

The more I talk with You, the more I have to reconsider my kit.
Thanks

Jean,

Yep, seeing those bent steel adapters was sobering!

I'll keep you posted on the 7075-T6 adapters.

Don

Jean,

When are you going to Africa again? Do I need to hurry with the adapters?

Hi Don
I'll go to Zim the 24th July. I have plenty of time.
What is puzzling me is the use of the imperial measurements.When coming down to int. and ext. diametre of arrow, diametre of shank or insert, I am lost.
I have studied (cause to have the right to bowhunt back here, we have to attend a course during 3 hours)that the size of an arrow is :
2219 means ext diam 22/64 inch and alu 19/1000 thick. What about 6075,7075 etc.........
I would have loved to stick to the Easton axis considering its small diametres int = 0,200 inch ((5.19 mm) and external 0.264 inch (6.73
mm)what can improve the penetration (along with sandpapering and grease).
But the safari rhino is appealing too. Nothing wrong with it , just reconsidering how to bring it up to 900 or 1000 grains at 30".

I am getting more lost when looking for the concurents of the Grizzly (I am a Zwickey- Magnus fan) say : STOS and Eclipse
classical broadheads

It's getting as regulating a retive double. I guess it's part of the fun.
Cheers

Jean,

The 4560 or 6075 descriptions, are commonly used on carbon arrows. They indicate a rough draw-weight range of suitablity. So a 6075 is good for bows with draw weights between 60 and 75 pounds. Of course tip weight and cam style, etc, will affect the real range of applicability.

The 6075 tells you nothing about diameter. You have to find a chart from the manufacturer to tell you that. Unfortunately, Carbon Tech has removed that chart from their website. The Carbon Tech Safari arrows (sometimes called Carbon Tech Rhino Safari arrows) are .246 Inside Diameter and roughly .311 Outside Diameter. The ID is tightly controlled. the OD varies a bit from production run to production run. The shafts weigh 15.5 grains per inch, so a full length shaft (32") with a 190 grain Grizzly, a 100 grain adapter and the usual inserts, 5" vanes, etc. will come out around 900 grains without adding any other weight. I used full length shafst with that 300 grain total tip weight because I was only shooting 80#. If I step up to 100# draw I may need to trim them to 28.5" (the shortest I can go with my setup) to get the spine right. These are very heavy and stiff shafts!

Carbon shaft diameters are all over the map, but .246 ID is the most common for hunting arrows in the US.

Thanks Don,

Valuable data.
These rhino safari heavy arrows are puzzling me. I think I’ll order some to have a try. And I stay in with You for the steel adapters.
Anyhow, it’ll be hard to make me let down small diameter arrow.
By the way, I’d love to know the diameter of the usual shafts. I noted that most arrowmakers don’t indicate the diameter of their shafts. Easton is advertising for axix, metal jacket and ultra-slim but nothing concerning the diameter.
It could be an interesting post.

I bought a digital fish-scale on Ebay. Sadly, this device is displaying that my 60# Mathews is about 50# and my >80# is 67#. So this scale cannot be trusted. I can visit the closer bowshop but he’d be infuriated when seeing that I have bought a Bowtech from another seller. The next bowshop is at 140 miles……….

I measured the speed of my 910 gr arrow : 221 ft/s, my 1010 gr arrow 208 ft/s. Thus the KE is 97.
Good luck
jean

Jean,

221 fps is what I got from my Allegiance set at 83# with a 924 grain arrow. So you must have backed off your 90# just a bit?

Sorry Don

I was overworked.
Yes, I have backed off my 90#. I bought it last year (november or december) to hunt buff in the CAR in early january. The shopkeeper backed it off at 80#. Since then I have tightened the limbs one quarter of a turn after another about twice a month. I have had to severely back off after the first chikungunya virus bouts.
Now, still 2 turns and a quarter and the limbs will be fully tightened. Thus I think I am not very far from 90#. But God it hurts my right wrist now...............

Jean,

I hope I never have to fight that virus.

Keep your chin up!

Thanks Don

a slightly disabling virus.
I follow Your piece of advice and tightened my limbs a quarter of a turn.
The Allegiance is reaching a KE of 93. KE is growing alarmingly slow.

Jean- Consider an Axis 300 inside a 2020, both Easton product. That should be a really tight fit. With my 180 grain BH, arrow total is 912. I'm using one of those crummy german heads!

Thanks Crane,
but I want to use a small-diametred arrow the size of the axis to get the best possible penetration.
I am looking for aluminium tube to stick into it, outer diameter about 5 mm (.200 inch). That will rigidify the arrow as well.
I have reached the 103 KE :
900 gr arrow at 225 ft/s
1000 gra arrow @ 218 ft/s.

Jean,

Can you get me a careful measurement of the inside diameter of your favorite arrow. Exactly what arrow is it that you are using for the outside?

I have some shafts that might fit inside.

Dear Don,
I don't want to bother You.
I am not sure I am acting toward a good direction but I wish to use a smalldiameter arrow to obtain the best possible penetration. In this department the axis (or Beman MFX Max4) (inner diam 0.202 inch, outer diam 0.283 inch) is a splendid candidate.
I don’t pretend my option is the best, I don’t criticize Your respectable choice and I feel it’s more rewarding that we prospect in different directions.
In the past I have used propylene tubes and various wires to make my arrow heavier.
Soroko’s post “Bowtech cries prior to dying†is really worrying me and makes me conscious of the necessity of having stiffer arrows when shooting a wannabe 90# bow.
My current work is finding alu tubes of the perfect diameter (5 to 5.10 mm or a tad under 0.202 inch or 5/64) I have found some in alu and in brass. I’ll try both. I suspect alu is more rigid.

The steel adapters are always on my wish list. I think about having some made by the metallurgy department of a local high school. Students need to be trained and tested on useful things when possible.

Moreover, I have to cut the tail of my broadheads . Broadheads are designed to accept adapters of standard size (11/32) and broad shafts. For my slim shafts, I need slimmer adapters and slimmer broadheads : I have to cut the tail of my Zwickey, Magnus or Eclipse so as they don’t be fatter than my Axis or Max4 (0.283 inch or about 9/32).

Concerning the fletching, feathers are suppler than vanes and then will penetrate better. But I think the FOB (http://www.starrflight.com/) will be better: it pops off the shaft at impact and thus increases penetration. I have to tell You that I ordered them and fully messed up my order. None the less, the President Paul Morris did his best, even inquiring about all my wishes and sent me the whole at light speed. An outstanding obliging company. Hats off.

As You can see, my project is not completed.