quote:

Originally posted by China Fleet Sailor:
Old air cooled VWs, both Beetles and suprisingly vans, make really capable off roaders. The rear engine layout gives them great traction and IRS gives them incredible wheel travel that allows them to negotiate really uneven terrain. The good thing about rear engine, rear wheel drive vehicles when dealing with mountains or climbing hills is that you start out with a lot of the weight over the drive wheels, then when heading uphill a large portion of the rest of the weight of the vehicle shifts to the rear.

By comparison, a front engine, rear wheel drive vehicle may not shift enough of the weight to the rear to provide anything like the traction you'll get in a VW. This is especially true with 2WD pick-up trucks which can be be extremely front heavy and don't have much weight over the rear wheels to start with. Front engine, front wheel drive vehicles were hyped as having superior traction. But when heading uphill in a front engine, front wheel drive vehicle the weight transfer means there's less weight over the drive wheels, exactly what you don't want even on road if it's wet & slippery.

My high school biology teacher used to have a side business taking people on photographic safaris in national parks in Kenya. He was operating on a shoestring and couldn't afford Land Rovers. So he used VW vans. He said he could get to all the same spots, but not always by the same routes. That was mostly due to the weight of the passengers and the weak engines.

The fact is that VWs, due to its layout, can get away without 4WD a lot longer than other vehicles. Or another way to put it is that other vehicles are going to need 4WD to go where a 2WD VW can go. The WWII Kubelwagen could go just about anywhere a Jeep could, and some places a Jeep couldn't.

Stock VW Beetles aren't shabby off roaders; basically stock VWs race in Class 11 and get up to about 90mph in the desert. VWs work even better off road if they're modified. A well-prepped VW can easily change your mind about needing 4WD.



Sandrails were the next step after people maxed out the off road potential of the Baja Bug.



They got their name because the tube frame construction with rear engine is something like a top fuel dragster, also known as a rail, but it was originally intended to be used on beaches and in deserts.

The original versions, which you can still get, were engineered to bolt on the VW bug drive train, suspension, steering, etc.

Although they're called sandrails they're actually a lot more versatile than that, they can deal with all sorts of terrain and conditions. That includes snow, even in the mountains.



People who use their sandrails in the snow say you really need turn or cutting brakes; individual brakes applied to the rear wheels to assist in turning when the front wheels aren't likely to have much traction. These brakes are a very common accessory on sandrails. And while they started out as a Kali thing now you'll find them from west coast to east coast and from the Mexico to the Canada.

You can spend $50 to $100K on a sandrail especially if you want some twin turbo LS1 powered beast.





On the other hand, BerrienBuggy sells a kit for less than $400.

You end up with something far more basic like this.



You have to come up with the VeeDub engine, transaxle, suspension, and other assorted parts. You can do it far cheaper than an ATV, though. I've seen things around Cabo San Lucas and Rosarito Beach cobbled together out of spare parts that cost next to nothing to build that could go anywhere.

As I said, they are versatile off roaders. The military uses them.





You can see how low the driver and right hand passenger sit. These things have low centers of gravity compared to other vehicles with the same kind of ground clearance, plus they're extremely light weight so they have good power to weight ratios even with stock or lightly modified engines. Which means you don't have to put a lot of money into them even if you want something quick, fast, and enough power to get up and over a muddy hill.

Besides being able to go just about anywhere, the tube frame gives you a ton of places to weld on or strap on racks for gear or equipment. You can see the side racks above; you can also weld on a rack over the integral roll cage or over the engine. Actually, except for the weapons mounts the military versions of these sandrails aren't any different from three-seaters some companies, like Sierra Sandrails, builds expressly for hunting (you can also get four-seater kits or turn-key vehicles). There's a company that displays at the DSC convention that shows its sandrail with hard plastic gun scabbards strapped onto the frame, etc.

They can also be registered for on road use in many states. Here's one with Georgia plates.







Yeah, even a street legal, VeeDub powered sandrail can pull the front wheels off the ground.

My uncle's '59, stone stock Beetle could deal well with snow. If you couldn't get to his cabin in the mountains in that thing, you needed snowshoes, not a 4WD. The only problem with a sandrail is that it'd be a cold and wet ride. But then, so are ragtop Jeeps and Sammys.

I'd seriously think of putting together or buy a sandrail if I needed more off road capability then I can get out of my Toy P/U.

You may not find it a useful alternative for your intended purpose, but at the very least I'd say a type of vehicle that can do wheelies, provides the basis for some of the fastest off road racing classes, and can be registered for on road use, properly belongs on the sports car forum.