As long as everyone wants to be precise here; No one dissected a GEW 98 made in 1937; that is quite impossible. Gewehr 98s were not made after WW1. Try again.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
A very interesting discussion.

Wouldn't be much easier just of buy Ruger MKII's and get some of the most desired features one wants.

Double bridge scope mounting, 3 position safety, modern steel, properly heated ect.

But than one wouldn't be able to charge for all the time put in making a old military action into something similar.

That would be just like putting your Mauser into an "ugly" bath which would wash all the class away. Do that, and you would pull out a Ruger! I like Rugers. Regards, Bill

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
As long as everyone wants to be precise here; No one dissected a GEW 98 made in 1937; that is quite impossible. Gewehr 98s were not made after WW1. Try again.

You are absolutely right!

It is a S/27 marked 1937, I mixed them up.

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
Pray tell me why in the hell that I would do that!

Well that is the rub Butch, you want to radically structurally alter an action, want to know if doing so has made it unsafe, yet don't want to test it using a proven, time tested method that will determine so.

I asked before and never got an answer, are proof loads even available in the US down at the gunsmith level?

Young feller, you're on here only to stir shit, right?

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
Young feller, you're on here only to stir shit, right?

Why is pointing out that proof testing, whether bolts, chain or guns is the standard method, 'shit stirring'?

Sounds like you really don't want to know if your ground down receiver is safe by accepted standards.

So why did you ask?

Unless things have changed in the last week, proof loads are not generally available.

Many years ago, when I was a charter member of the ACGG, I tried in vain to convince the body that we should at least look into the possibility.

About 75% were opposed on the basis of "Possible damage"

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:

quote:

Originally posted by Doug W:

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
So I bought a Chilean from the Hensley's that was turned to a small ring. I chambered it in 250 Savage. Is it going to be a bomb? I've hunted it a couple times and it shoots great.

Run three 86ksi proof loads through it as Mr. Satterlee suggested and get back with us.
Because otherwise it is just guessing and conjecture.

Pray tell me why in the hell that I would do that! I'm with Mr Anderson, you are out of your element.

If I remember correctly the 86k proof loads were for a 375 H&H, which comparatively runs at a higher pressure than a 250 Savage (62k-66k?). 86k would be a large % overload? Proof loads are typically . . . what? 15% to 30% over.

Saami lists 250 Savage at 45000 CUP with no psi pressure range listed. So PSI would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 50k psi? 65k PSI seems like a more reasonable test if someone wanted to test the practicality of whether that modification is "structurally" damaging.

In the 30's Mauser did some high pressure testing of Standard Modell rifles using 5600 ATM rounds (approximately 86k PSI) to measure deformation and swelling of the chamber. Quite an interesting study.

If some of you are not familiar with the gentleman copperlake that posted, he took some small ring Mausers 93 & 96, and pressure tested them well up into the mid 100k psi range. The results are quite interesting, may make a good read for those of you who think they can only handle 40k psi.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
Unless things have changed in the last week, proof loads are not generally available.

Many years ago, when I was a charter member of the ACGG, I tried in vain to convince the body that we should at least look into the possibility.

About 75% were opposed on the basis of "Possible damage"

LOL.... I think they had a valid concern.

I suspect many of these ground down receiver rings, welded on receiver rings, weakened abutments perhaps wouldn't catastrophically fail, but wouldn't pass the inspection part of proof testing for permanent deformation.

However my 400 H&H was built on a M98.

Cannot have a nice post classic Brit cartridge on a Yank made action can we???



Yes I did run pressure tests. Action still in one piece.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
A very interesting discussion.

Wouldn't be much easier just of buy Ruger MKII's and get some of the most desired features one wants.

Double bridge scope mounting, 3 position safety, modern steel, properly heated ect.

But than one wouldn't be able to charge for all the time put in making a old military action into something similar.

That would be just like putting your Mauser into an "ugly" bath which would wash all the class away. Do that, and you would pull out a Ruger! I like Rugers. Regards, Bill

Ugly is as ugly does.



And to compliment it further it is going into a Bell & Carlson stock. Scabbard rifle for hunting the Snake River high country on horseback.

Mine's a tanger in a Wildcat stock. Benchmark barrel in 7x57. Like I said, I actually like Rugers and even have an "F" class rifle I built on one. Regards, Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
Mine's a tanger in a Wildcat stock. Benchmark barrel in 7x57. Like I said, I actually like Rugers and even have an "F" class rifle I built on one. Regards, Bill

Yea we like the old B&C stocks with no sling swivels. Less to hang up in the scabbard. I have three more on FN's.


And no scope mount screws on the 77 to shear off when that bronc gets a sniff of 'ol grizz and takes a hopping run through the trees!

The white stud in the above photo is named "ol Thunder" for a reason. Takes a real horseman to handle him.

Young feller, just as Mr Anderson posted, you don't answer questions directed to you.
I'll ask you again,"Why should I load a 86k load in a rifle that I shoot at 45k"?
I've only about 500 rounds through it and it hasn't blown up yet.

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
Young feller, just as Mr Anderson posted, you don't answer questions directed to you.
I'll ask you again,"Why should I load a 86k load in a rifle that I shoot at 45k"?
I've only about 500 rounds through it and it hasn't blown up yet.

Sorry, I was being a bit facetious.

You should have it proof tested with proof loads at the appropriate pressure IF you really want to know if it is safe.


"Blowing up" is catastrophic failure, probably long before that would be permanent deformation like other posters in this thread have noted.
Which of course is failure too.

While I understand and pretty much agree with the concept of using a proof load, there are just too many variables in chambers, throats, barrels etc to make the claim that the elusive proof load for said cartridge only produces X amount of pressure.

Barreled 2 different actions using 2 different barrel manufacturers. Same reamer. One would have to have the case pounded out with a wooden dowel even with 10 grains LESS powder. The thought of using the same ammo between the 2 rifles pretty much flew out the window.

A proof load will only produce X amount of pressure in the barrel it was originally tested in. Every other barrel will be somewhat higher or lower than X. Sometimes dramatically.

I nominate Doug to set up a US proof house and assume all the liability that comes with it.

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
So I bought a Chilean from the Hensley's that was turned to a small ring. I chambered it in 250 Savage. Is it going to be a bomb? I've hunted it a couple times and it shoots great.

Pretty sure your Chilean started out as a large ring small thread, so effectively it is just a standard small ring now.
Having inspected a few Oberndorf LRST actions from that era, the relief cut is small thread diameter.
So nothing to worry about and happy shooting Butch.

I think that you are right.

Since were on the subject, anybody here remember the guy that used to post here whose handle was Ass Clown ?

No need for testing, proof loads or a Proof House if a guy on the internet says it is OK.

WEll two rifles I bult were proofed in France. IF..I remember right...the loads were progressively increased until they reached the proof level...which was about 10[% over published max pressure.

Don't ask me how they determined the pressure levels!

And..you know what Doug? You want to rant and rave, go on the political forum

Point is that they were nothing like 15-30%..When going to 30%..you're not testing,you're performing a stunt.


Spatial chamberings...tighter neck, shorter throat, tighter headspace and all that BS... WILL lead to inconsistent pressure levels...THAT'S WHY STANDARDS EXIST . If asked for these "Special" chamberings, I get too busy that day.."Go somewhere else:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
WEll two rifles I bult were proofed in France. IF..I remember right...the loads were progressively increased until they reached the proof level...which was about 10[% over published max pressure.

And if memory serves me correctly one of them was a 404 on an UN-reheat treated !909.

quote:

Ugly is as ugly does.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I have several rifles' on n98 actions.

I have several on Springfield actions.

I have several Ruger MKII's I prefer the Rugers over the rest.

Woodhunter, I'm curious as to why the transducer is taped to the barrel and not the receiver? Is that some sort of DIY pressure setup? If so, I'd love to hear about it.

BTW, beautiful country, beautiful horses and a nice rack!

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):


And..you know what Doug? You want to rant and rave, go on the political forum

Point is that they were nothing like 15-30%..When going to 30%..you're not testing, you're performing a stunt.

At the risk of sounding like a rant, a rave or both.

SAAMI published values for Butch's 250 Sav are
Service Maximum Ave Pressure 45K CUP
Proof Min Ave Pressure 60K CUP
Proof Max Ave Pressure 64.5K CUP

So the minimum ave proof is 33% higher and the maximum ave proof is 43% higher than maximum ave service pressure.
^Actually 30% and 40%, but with rounding....

https://saami.org/wp-content/u...-14-Posting-Copy.pdf
page 366

There is a good reason why the ACGG fears proof loads.

270 win, Proof Max Ave Pressure is 93ksi!!!

How many custom Mausers have you built?

One needs to ask what a custom rifle is.

New barrel, new stock, new trigger ect. there are many different levels of "custom"

A military action needs a lot more ~custom~ work than a modern sporting action that has all that work done at the factory.

Modern actions do not need reheat treating, bolts bent, drilled and trapped, new safeties ect.

Back when military actions/rifles were cheap, along with parts and labor. One could turn one into a decent sporting rifle for less than a factory one.

Now with people wanting more for some actions than one can buy a complete working factory rifle.

The economics do not make sense.

But for those who want one of a kind, the best wood, something that no one else has.

We have some very talented smiths out there that will give them just that.

For people like me who see firearms as tools to get the job done. There are very satisfactory firearms that come off the assembly line everyday.

Than there is every degree in between.

I have very few rifles that have not been modified/customized to some degree.

quote:

Originally posted by metal:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
WEll two rifles I bult were proofed in France. IF..I remember right...the loads were progressively increased until they reached the proof level...which was about 10[% over published max pressure.

And if memory serves me correctly one of them was a 404 on an UN-reheat treated !909.

Correct!

I certainly can't answer for manufacture proofs. But the numbers told me that the French proof house was primarily concerned with a reasonable level of safety

quote:

Originally posted by copperlake:
Woodhunter, I'm curious as to why the transducer is taped to the barrel and not the receiver? Is that some sort of DIY pressure setup? If so, I'd love to hear about it.

BTW, beautiful country, beautiful horses and a nice rack!

The barrel is the thing doing the expanding, not the receiver. Simple physics. The strain gauge must be on the part doing the most work.



Why the small diameter barrel? For a good stretch upon firing for consistent results. This barrel has had about 400 rounds down it during the extensive load development for the cartridge. And, following Duane's comments, the chamber is conventional so it will take any and all hunting rounds. You do not need tight necks and snug headspace on a stopper, leave that foolishness to the bench rest boys and 1000 yarders.

System is the Oehler M43, the industry standard for strain gauge systems. Very accurate.

Superseded by the later Model 85 and 89.

The country is the high Oregon Mountains on the west slope of the Snake River. Beautiful once you get away from all the day hunters, takes a pack string to do this. The gent on "Ol Thunder is the son in law. He and my daughter have about 8 head of pack animals and saddle horses, they specialize in packing way back in. On the hunt when the big rack was collected they did not see another hunter.

Here you go: Silver box on the left is the ballistic computer. Works in conjunction with a laptop. Software is loaded on the laptop.

Inputs to the ballistic computer are the strain gauge leads and the leads from the three velocity screens. So we have pressure and velocity for each shot.

Also calculates the muzzle energy.

Output from the ballistic computer goes to the laptop. Then we can print pressure curves and see what is happening inside the cartridge case upon firing. Sometimes the curves are very interesting, you can see secondary pressure curves. Hmm. Recall the SEE effect?

Neat stuff.

Know what? Doug W is spot on with his pressure figures...Found it on page 357 where transducer data is shown rather than CUP.

Bear in mind that these are MAX pressures....In the real world,. ammo is loaded lower. i.e. I was told by a darn reliable source... that,,for instance while max pressure for the 270 Win is 65K, ammo is typically loaded at about 58K.

Other than that...thread was ..Ahhhh... entertaining!

So a 270 runs at 58K, phew that is a relief.
Get it...relief.....(cut) hah hah.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
Know what? Doug W is spot on with his pressure figures...Found it on page 357 where transducer data is shown rather than CUP.

Bear in mind that these are MAX pressures....In the real world,. ammo is loaded lower. i.e. I was told by a darn reliable source... that,,for instance while max pressure for the 270 Win is 65K, ammo is typically loaded at about 58K.

Other than that...thread was ..Ahhhh... entertaining!

Entertaining is right. That is why I come back and take a look often. Better than any best seller. I try to put in some funnies to liven things up.

Did this when I rebuilt the floor in the hay barn this summer. For the guys that tear the barn down in 50 years, a monument to the Corona Virus.

Or did this guy blow up his 98 while pressure testing???????

Wood

I'm steal this one.

Rich

I wish I was old enough that I would be allowed to post pics....How grown do you have to be to do that?

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:
How many custom Mausers have you built?

I guess you never noticed that sticky at the top of this forum for the last 3 years.
I build receivers, including mauser receivers from 4140 bar stock, commercially heat treated to 36Rc and then machined in that hardened state, about 150ksi yield strength.

You polish up receivers someone else made of steel with less strength then the cheapest Chinese grade 2 bolt out of the hardware store bulk bin.
Then call yourself "gunmaker". LOL

I have zero fear of SAAMI proof loads and would enjoy proofing my receivers if I could find them, just like most US manufacturers do, or did.

Anyway, after 10 years of meth night at the Alzheimer center, with zero content of substance, unfocused topics and worshipping of the butter soft steel it is time for me to shove off for Speerchucker Island.

So bye!

Thats it, take your bat and ball and go home.
Dougs way or the highway.

quote:

Then call yourself "gunmaker". LOL

Very few smiths build there own rifles most just customize others.

quote:

Originally posted by Doug W:

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:
How many custom Mausers have you built?

I build receivers, including mauser receivers from 4140 bar stock,

Got a type07 FFL?
Show us some pics of a completed receiver, completed rifle.

Got any happy customers?

And I'll keep calling myself a gunmaker.
Hell, I've even got a license to do it!
IMG_2832sharpyoutube by JAMES ANDERSON, on Flickr