Okay. As you might know I am a WLDF Biologist. From time to time I have been working on exotic removals for ranches and large landowners. Recently we purchased a large tract of land and an additional lease that covers over 11,000 acres. On this land we have feral hogs, Spanish goats, and a yet to be determined number of odd sheep. I can see damage to the streams and especially the seeps and springs. Additionally, there are areas that are over grazed and the oaks show signs that replacement of is not happening. From the carcasses [bones], the mountain lions and coyotes have been doing a great job (that is another story), but the ferals are way ahead of the lion’s capacity to keep them in check. I will be submitting consultation and permit requests soon for the removal of these animals.

The terrain is very open, with wooded draws and creek bottoms, but when I was scoping it recently I found that getting within 300 yards was very difficult and time consuming. This does not aid in efficient and effective removal of the animals and ultimately they will get ahead despite my efforts.

Okay. As you might know I am a WLDF Biologist. From time to time I have been working on exotic removals for ranches and large landowners. Recently we purchased a large tract of land and an additional lease that covers over 11,000 acres. On this land we have feral hogs, Spanish goats, and a yet to be determined number of odd sheep. I can see damage to the streams and especially the seeps and springs. Additionally, there are areas that are over grazed and the oaks show signs that replacement of is not happening. From the carcasses [bones], the mountain lions and coyotes have been doing a great job (that is another story), but the ferals are way ahead of the lion’s capacity to keep them in check. I will be submitting consultation and permit requests soon for the removal of these animals.

The terrain is very open, with wooded draws and creek bottoms, but when I was scoping it recently I found that getting within 300 yards was very difficult and time consuming. This does not aid in efficient and effective removal of the animals.

So, I need rifle and caliber suggestions for a 300-500+ meter rifle. This gun is utilitarian, no frills. I need accuracy and enough horsepower to knock these guys over and not need another shot due to lack of knockdown power. What do you suggest? I think it is out of range for my 338 Win Mag, and I have actually been considering building a 338 Lapua, or a 300 RUM. The savings from other methods of removal and increased carrying capacity of the land will offset the cost of the rifle, but I need to be reasonable. Please help.

By the way its good to get back into the real game management like this again. Hopefully, in 5-7 years we will have a productive piece of property again for our cattle and we might even consider reintroduction of Tule elk.

300 Winchester, 300 Weatherby, or 300 RUM. I have never seen a goat, sheep, or hog that wouldn't submit to any of these if the shooter did his part.

Remember, you'll be shooting this rifle a lot and probably moving around a good bit too. Therefore it needs to be light enough to carry, the recoil tame enough not the beat the snot out of you, and the ammunition affordable enough to burn lots of it.

And as a thought, how about a muzzle break?

I think a 338 Laupa would a little overkill, but that's just my opine.

I am concerned about the power past 300 yards.

I will be using a tactical style stock and assume it will be camo patterned to the terrian I will be hunting. I like long barrels and wonder if I need a break on the barrel. ihate the looks of those things, but I hate the looks of synthetic stock too and I will be using one of those. Maybe a McMillan A-Series or Baker Special?

The military uses the .308 out to close to 700 meters pretty effectively.

I would imagine that any of the .30 caliber magnums will have suffient power out to 500+ yards.

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The military uses the .308 out to close to 700 meters pretty effectively.

I have an older M/700 Tactical bull-barreled rifle in 308. All factory. I am not comfortable with it at that range. I had an issue with a big boar a few years ago with 165 grain slugs and a 350+ range. I want more power for sure, but it would be nice because I can shoot that gun all day.

What action?

I will defer to the long range gurus on here, but my immediate thought would be to pick up a used Remington 700 in the the appropriate caliber, have the action blueprinted, install a heavier tapered barrel, and add the stock that best fits you. This shouldn't be too hard a build as there are lots of gunsmiths that specialize in this type of build up.

Sounds like a hell of a fun project too!

And way cool profession by the way. I bet you look forward to everyday at work!

OKH, here's my point of view.. I don't take shots at uninjured game at these distances, and my opinion if fully that. Then again, if you must...


I would suggest a either plainly built 375 HH, load it would the lightest barnes bullets you can, to the highest speed you want to reload to, and be done with it. Or a 7RUM longest barrel you can get, fastest twist you can get, and shoot the heaviest SOFTEST bullets you.. as you are actually not hunting, this runs about 500 bucks.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=48220166

with a 26" barrel, quickload suggests 3200fps with 160 nosler BTs. This will require very GOOD shot placement.

The cost of the remington would be offset by good clase. In fact, i would even suggest a shepherd scope, with the right settings.

it is well known that the 7mm has the highest "smaller bore" BC potential.

sight it in at 300 yards, it 4" high in the midpoint and 5" low at 365.

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by 333_OKH:

quote:

The military uses the .308 out to close to 700 meters pretty effectively.

I have an older M/700 Tactical bull-barreled rifle in 308. All factory. I am not comfortable with it at that range. I had an issue with a big boar a few years ago with 165 grain slugs and a 350+ range. I want more power for sure, but it would be nice because I can shoot that gun all day.

What action?

Anything in 06 or .308 will be comfortable to carry and shoot and either one is plenty for game that size out to the ranges you mentioned, and probably even a bit more.

I would use whatever action you like and are comfortable with.

OK, OK, I know that this is just a thinly disguised plea for help. All right, you guilted me in to it. I'll take a week's vacation and help you put.

I'll bring my 375 H&H up with the 260 grain Partitions with the 6.5x284 and 300 WSM just in case.

Just PM me the dates and I'll come up. I'll cover my own expenses etc. and just do this out of the goodness of my heart.

quote:

I don't take shots at uninjured game at these distances

I do not like too, and posts of mine in the past have been critical of these shots, but the other alternatives are no better, and are much more expensive. I would like to reserve them for the remaining few that will stay outside of rifle range, and if the past holds true, there will be some. The pigs can be gotten with dogs later when they stay in the brush, but the goats are a different story. The sheep. well I have no idea, but I need to figure out what breed they are first. They look rather exotic. Damned city people come to the country and turn loose a bunch of animals.

The ballistics of the 300 RUM and 200g Accubond carry lots of smack out that far....3100 to 3200 fps isn't out of the question. Works exceptionally well for a sniper friend of mine up here......

Good luck in your quest,

Dan

quote:

Originally posted by 333_OKH:

quote:

All right, you guilted me in to it. I'll take a week's vacation and help you put.

Funny, but possibly true. Last time a group of eight wildlife management guys [me included] from college got together and did the work. It was a hell of a lot of work and we had to come back three straight years.

I must admit Rick0311 an M1A in sniper conversion in the hands of a a former Special Forces gentleman did the trick better than the rest of us. You could hear that damned thing double tapping all across the hillsides. Nothing like long range ghillie suit hog hunting in the prairie oak interface. I had to hang up the flannel and go camo.

165 grain Sierra Game Kings in either .308 or 06 are still doing over 2,000 fps second out to 400 yards, and just a little bit under 2,000 fps at 500 yards.

quote:

165 grain Sierra Game Kings in either .308 or 06 are still doing over 2,000 fps second out to 400 yards, and just a little bit under 2,000 fps at 500 yards.

I still think I am going bigger just for added assurance. Those are pretty good speeds, but 300 pound pigs can be tough.

quote:

Originally posted by 333_OKH:

quote:

165 grain Sierra Game Kings in either .308 or 06 are still doing over 2,000 fps second out to 400 yards, and just a little bit under 2,000 fps at 500 yards.

I still think I am going bigger just for added assurance. Those are pretty good speeds, but 300 pound pigs can be tough.

You do what you want, but at long range your are always better off with a round you are comfortable with and can consistently shoot accurately.

Power is great, but accuracy is deadly, and I can’t remember the last time I saw anything killed by a big loud noise.

What about a 7mm STW its got some good things going for it

quote:

and I can’t remember the last time I saw anything killed by a big loud noise

Well put and this should go down as a quote. I do not typically go for long range shots, but my other option, one that is currently being used in two spots in Claifornia, it to hammer them from a helicopter. iwill try the 308 in hte next visit and let you know how it works out. I have pig tags currently but we want open permits for the wholesale work.

Free hunt for all AR members??

have you ever dealt with 11 investors with different ideas?

No, but I have grazing leases on land owned by the state and conservation groups. I can imagine.

have been using 300 RUM of a friends this last while, it should do the job for you, with well placed shots

quote:

Originally posted by 333_OKH:

quote:

and I can’t remember the last time I saw anything killed by a big loud noise

Well put and this should go down as a quote. I do not typically go for long range shots, but my other option, one that is currently being used in two spots in Claifornia, it to hammer them from a helicopter. iwill try the 308 in hte next visit and let you know how it works out. I have pig tags currently but we want open permits for the wholesale work.

Seriously...go for the round you are most comfortable with.

I shoot long range with my 06’s and .308’s all the time and I am far more consistent and accurate with those than I am with a 300 Winchester Mag even though theoretically it has better ballistics for the longer shots. I’m sure if I shot one as much as I shoot the others that might change...but personally I do not find shooting a .300 WM to be all that enjoyable.

Rick has it with the 308. If you cant kill a goat/hog with a 308 the problem is you not the range, terrain or animal. 308s are inherently accuarte and quality hunting ammo, TSX or Accubond, is readily available. Find a hog trap and employ that statagey too. Baited with corn you will catch both the hogs and goats/sheep then you can do ballistic testing of all your favorite hand guns. Shooting 300-500 yards is not rocket science and you do not need special equipment. Get a rifle comfortable to carry and shoot, hunting tapper in the barrel will do. Top it with a quality 3-9, Leupold VXI/II or Nikon...and go kill some vermin. Dont over complicate this; rifle + practice = dead animals.

Perry

If we are talking about sheep, goats and pigs, none of them are particularly tough to kill.... so I gotta ask why the 338Mag?


To shoot ANY of those animals under "normal" hunting circumstances I'd stick to something that kicked less.

I'm sorry, but anyone who CLAIMS that they can shoot any of the 30cal plus mags as well as they can shoot an '06 (assuming a rifle.scope of equal quality) is probably full of bovine guano.

I'm a big guy, I'm 6'4" and just a cheeseburger or two under 300lb and try as I might a 30cal or larger mag tends to jump around in my arms.

And the need for "big guns" to kill sheep, pigs & Goats? Not realistic.

My choice/recomendation? (cheap) get yourself a Remington Sendaro in 7mmMag and load it up with 140gr bullets. Even Hogzilla (a feral pig weighing over half a ton) would fall to a 140gr Nosler partition if put into the vitals.

Less cheap? a medium heavy barrel on something in the .264/270/7mm bore range and load it with medium weight bullet for the caliber
(120's from a 264Win don't kick much)

And a 7mmMag doesn't kick enough more than a 30-06 for most people to notice.

Hey, on the targets being discussed a 270Win loaded with 130's is probably more than you need, I only suggest the 7mmMag because it has more than 100yards worth of
long distance dialing than the 270 does and you did say "long range"...

Except for the 300lb feral pigs mentioned Id've recomend a 25-06 and 100gr Nosler partitions. I KNOW this combo works on whitetails... and nobody ever complains about recoil fatigue from a 25-06 (and if you do you are a real weenie!)

Hey, how about a 260Rem loaded with 100gr partitions?

Clearing ferals and exitics from a piece of land? Need help?

I've got this new 7mmMag I want to test....


AllanD

quote:

Rick has it with the 308. If you cant kill a goat/hog with a 308 the problem is you not the range, terrain or animal. 308s are inherently accuarte and quality hunting ammo, TSX or Accubond, is readily available. Find a hog trap and employ that statagey too. Baited with corn you will catch both the hogs and goats/sheep then you can do ballistic testing of all your favorite hand guns.

I have used these in the past, but these pigs are very wary of human and the traps will be inefficient. We would have to start feeding to increase its efficiency and I want it done faster than that. After this project we need to evaluate a few other issues with this land. We may go for a game management permit to allow hunting on our schedule not the State's.

I think one issue is being missed with this hunt. I have done this several times before, and in fact the 308, a 25-06, and even a 243 were along for the ride the other times. However, these pigs are about 75 percent Duroc, but the rest of the buggers are Russian imigrants from Tehema County. I do not think this was an accident. There is the possibility from the tracks that we have boars signiciantly larger than a normal Calif feral. I do not care about meat loss due to caliber. I want them down and out. Most bullets will be aimed to clip the shoulders and still get vitals. This has a good effect at stopping them from running and killing them. The neck is too iffy for me at longer ranges. I would prefer complete penetration, but I also remember the Durocs my family used to raise for the 4-H. They were closer to 1000 pounds than 300. In a wild state and with the Russian blood they will not get than big, but could be well over 500.

The 243 was a failure, and yes even with Partions. Just my opinion, and it could have be the weapon, or the shooter, but some of the hits should not have resulted in follow-ups in the brush on wounded pigs with a pistol or shotgun. That may sound romantic, but it takes a lot of time and gets way to hairy at times.

The 25-06 is my favorite coyote gun, and it has served amazing on deer, including my first buck. I have had mixed results on pigs, especially close up, and for God's sake and your own, do not use it on an old wild range bull! Trust me!

Now that being said, I appreciate all of your comments because it grounded me back to a few priciples, which I think Rick started that the main concern is how well you shoot the rifle. I think I need to start with a good stock design that I am comfortable laying and shooting, that is long enough and I can adjust the comb.

I might be best served to just go for a M/700 action???

www.longrangehunting.com

Ask, and they will tell you exactly what you need.

There are persons there now building 338-408 Chey-tacs, planning to shoot elk at 1500 yards. 500 meters is piece of cake after that. These are serious hunters, who shoot all year round, weigh every charge they produce, keeps list of loadings etc etc..

Get a Rem 700, a fat barrel, better stock for prone position, reload your own rifle, and get the heaviest bullet in each caliber if you want to shoot long range.

333-
I know if fun to talk about and do LR sniping but if your goal truely is the efficient and complete erradication of exotics from the property there is no substitute for a Bell, a good pilot, a 12GA auto, and an AR. The Helicopter is expensive on the front end (roughly $600/hr plus shooter) but in open country they are extremely effective. The rifle would only be needed for maintainence control down the road. There are several reputable outfits that do this kind of work or you could contract through Wildlife Services. You could clear that property in a couple days, max.

Ditto the helicopter. There is no degree of shooting capability that is a practical replacement for access. Just because you can shoot 800 yds doesn't mean what you want to kill will give you an 800 yd shot or any other.

quote:

there is no substitute for a Bell, a good pilot, a 12GA auto, and an AR

Agreed and I have done this work myself. the ship is currently $780 per hour with an experienced pilot. I have done the work as the shooter and navigated for the shooter. This gets super costly fast. There are other alternatives, expecially in such rough terrian. the ship starts to have problems dodging trees and humps.

Any of the bigger 7mm will work or the .300's

7mm STW ,7MM ULM ,7 mm Rem mag

.300 Win ,.300 Rem ULtra ,.300 WBY

quote:

I might be best served to just go for a M/700 action???

Yup, with a nice thick SS barrel in 7mm Rem. Mag. pillar bedded in a McMillan stock with a Leupold MK 4 4.5-14x tactical scope on it. With a Leica rangefinder.

And lot's of practice.

Have gun will travel. My .358 X 404 IMP. might be just what you need. Me too! roger

quote:

Originally posted by 333_OKH:

quote:

there is no substitute for a Bell, a good pilot, a 12GA auto, and an AR

Agreed and I have done this work myself. the ship is currently $780 per hour with an experienced pilot. I have done the work as the shooter and navigated for the shooter. This gets super costly fast. There are other alternatives, expecially in such rough terrian. the ship starts to have problems dodging trees and humps.

No offense but the rougher the terrain for a helicopter the less effective a ground-based hunter can be. If you clients are serious they need to pony up to get the job done; otherwise they are wasting your time and their money.

My friend's family has an 1100 acre exotic pasture in S. Texas that is driven every day, 362 days a year with fairly open terrain. It was thought there were 30-40 Aoudad in the fence and one year recently they did a helicopter census for whitetail only to count over 130 individual Aoudad. The thought that 10-15 days of ground hunting can control a feral popoulation of anything is optimistic at best.

i'll say it again..
7rum, 160 gr bullets...

good glass

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
The thought that 10-15 days of ground hunting can control a feral popoulation of anything is optimistic at best.

I would think that thinking a lone sniper is going to even manage much less bring under control a feral problem is foolish.

quote:

No offense but the rougher the terrain for a helicopter the less effective a ground-based hunter can be. If you clients are serious they need to pony up to get the job done; otherwise they are wasting your time and their money.

There are some fundamentals that are missing in our conversation. First, the cost of permits to use the helicopter are excessive. The terrain is short, but steep, and is fine for hunters from ridges. The helicopter is good for vast country on short intervals. This will take longer. The animals learn very fast to stay in the brush when the helicopter is coming."Lone hunter" I think we are talking 12-20 hunters at a time, no single hunting enteries. This makes it worse. You have to hit fast and hard. The only way helicopters would work effective is to use three. One for each major drainage. We cannot afford this. the aspects of how to do this have been well thought of. This is what we do for a living. Want to talk caliber. In the heli we use only 223.

any accurate flat shooting round will do.........past 300 yrds, the round aint the critical path.

Heck, get a beater savage and go at it.

I think the perfect rifle would be the all new sendero in 264win mag, get a good scope with some target turrets, dial up the range from a steady rest, dead pigs. Also the good ole 270win is also a good choice, again set it up with target turrets.

Just because the military uses the 308 doesn't mean it outperforms everything, people have been trying for years to beat the 270, some have done it, but the tradeoffs are usually not worth it

Are you trying to make money on this hunt or remove animals? How far are you from San Diego? I have some friends there that are very proficient in weaponary and LOVE to hunt. They have helped me a time or two remove large numbers of hogs from our place in TX. Rough terrain is not a problem nor is camping out. As far as the trap goes, you bait it ONCE open and after that you will catch everytime. Move it once a month and repeat. Other than poison there is no more effective way at removing ferel pigs and goats with minimal effort and expense.

Perry

Perry

Last time I ran into a FWP officer he was washing his bloody hands off in the creek on our ranch. In the back of the pickup were five dead cow elk. Rifle: 270 Win. All were taken at considerabe range in a hay field.

I think you're overthinking this problem...

Whats wrong with your 338? Get a newer stock that fits for what you want it to do, rebarrel, reload ammo, go shoot.