If you could design and build an action, what features would it have. What kind of Safety, Bolt Stop, extractor, ejector, scope mounting, etc... (i.e. M70 three position safety, or Sako extractor, or describe the design of your own.) I know Atkinson's response might be "everthing just like the M98", but I would like to hear any feedback.

I like a tang safety. I have seen a M700 That David Christman put a tang safety on. It was pretty sweet. I don't know why this isn't used more often? I like a round action better also. Just easier to deal with. I hate the Rem. recoil lug. So I guess if you made a m700 in CRF, which shouldn’t be to hard, weld on the recoil lug and give it a tang safety that would be the cat’s meow in my book. Crap that sounds like a good project to start on when I get moved backed to La.

Shawn

P.S. I want all of this for less than $500.

I would start with a piece of ETD-180 (cold worked AISI 4140 to 180,000 PSI tensile)
It would have an integral recoil lug a little longer than the M-70, A three position Safety like the M-70, a 60 deg. bolt lift like the Browning A-bolt, a Timney (or other aftermarket) trigger, a gas shield similar to the one used on the Savage bolt actions, and the bolt to be in two optional types. One a push feed similar to the Sako and the other a CRF for .375 and bigger chamberings. Like the Mauser just for Ray!!!

Add to this a hinged floor plate with the release button on the inside of the trigger guard and a drop box for the larger calibers.

One more thing.....it has double taper scope mount lugs machined on the top of the rings. like the old Sako had. (maybe they still do)

One more thing. Go ahead and give it a Win. type ejector. That little plunger is kinda gay.

Shawn

Your firm makes a pretty fine action already. I wouldn't mind having a few. So make them just the way they are, only more affordable.

I like this FN mauser action and rifle , I just bought and refinished the stock Its a 1951 husqvarna model 640 just fine and the $245 price works for me.

A FN Supreme action with a "C" ring receiver & 1/4" longer.

tang safety

Square bridged receiver, C ring, CRF, and mauser-type ejector/ejector box.

And short action length!

Well, since this is a wish list, you might as well make it a three position tang safety!

How about intregal scope mount bases with a pop up peep sight, that have matching quick detach rings.

Elmo

How about:

A Mauser 98 type action that begins life capable of being opened to fit cartridges up 3.75" in length. This action should be complete with an inner C ring and must be able to handle gas as good or better than the M98. Give this action a Model 70 ejector and a big spring-loaded extractor. I personally wouldn't mind seeing this action be able to allow cartridges to "hop over the rim," but that's just me.

Also, I envision a double square bridge design where the front bridge would taper nicely to the front of the of the front ring making a nice flat that would allow a company emblem or engraving. Further give it a two position tang safety that pushes forward to fire and when pushed back, blocks the sear and locks the bolt in place.

Next, in light of today's precision machining capabilities, why not build a generic receiver that feeds from feed rails on the magazine instead of between feed rails on the receiver itself. That is to say, put the feed rails on the all steel, one piece magazine - like a M98 triggerguard with feed rails. This would allow a rifle to be rechamber down the road with a minimum of hassle - simply get a new trigggerguard. I think the bolt should one piece of steel though. As such, if it needs is to be opened, ect; you're on your own. Of course my action has to have a hinged triggerguard and I prefer it to open like a 1909 Argie or a Model 70.

Last, make this action from a billet of high quality steel. I think it would be possible to, if one had the proper machinery, know-how, and resources, to set up a CNC milling machine to turn these out fairly reasonably. (Though I'll state that this is speculation on my part as I am not a machinist.)

Now if we really wanted to get carried away, that horizontal sloping flat extending to the front of the receiver sure would match up well with a quarter rib or full length barrel rib...

Sorry if I ramble, I've had some free thinking time to daydream about this kind of thing and sometimes free time can be dangerous...

I'm not a machinist, either. However, I do own a machine shop. In the shop sits a Hurco VMX42 4 Axis CNC milling machine. I think it could machine a Mauser action. The only thing standing in the way is an action to reverse engineer and the machine time.

In all honesty we are just covered up with work right now.
I'd still like to make one and hopefully one of these years a double rifle action. One can dream, can't I?

Direct copy of the BRNO double square bridges in 223, ppc, short, intermediate, long and magnum with tang safety that cocks/uncocks the action without undue effort. Action would allow fitment of Jewel triggers. Bolt handle engineered and milled to allow ring height of 0.25". Whilst you're at it manafacture talley style rings in 1", 26mm and 30mm in super low, low and medium to fit directly to the bridges.

just an action?

Then I want an
anson/deeley double with a greener crossbolt third connector,
articulated triggers,
anti doubling mechanism,
4# triggers,
side clips and swags,
scalable from 375 flanged to 550 flanged, including all those "misc" nitro express round
made from 4140
slightly overly THICK from the standing breech through the inside of the action
action bolted for a through stock action bolt
rounded a little more than the AD.. like a gatalazan ithaca

and, to complete this

a matching monoblock to all people to finish their own rifles!!! regulation, sights, solder, and all the expensive labor parts....


well, you DID ask

jefe

Ruger 77 MkII.

Herr Webber

Copy of ZG-47 in high tensile steel

Mauser or Winchester pre 64 trigger. Two or three position safety, either reworked 98 shroud similar to Burgess kit or Winchester style.

Action sizes, Kurz, Intermediate, Standard and Magnum. Magnum shall have 750 diameter bolt and bigger lugs.

Small ring in Kurz, Intermediate and Standard size

Special action for 500 Jeffery, 458 Sabi etc. that is wider and allows a magazine with 4-5 rounds capacity.

Cheers
JOHAN

quote:

Originally posted by WaffenfabrikHein:
If you could design and build an action, what features would it have. What kind of Safety, Bolt Stop, extractor, ejector, scope mounting, etc... (i.e. M70 three position safety, or Sako extractor, or describe the design of your own.) I know Atkinson's response might be "everthing just like the M98", but I would like to hear any feedback.

It would NOT be a bolt action. I kinda like jeffe's ideas, or perhaps a nice single-shot. Tang safety definitely!

Johan has nailed it, I would also like copies of the ZG-47 and 21H actions with his suggested modifications, plus the Mod. 70 recoil lug and Newton ejector. This would allow for a solid left lug and I prefer that. Make these to a very high standard of fit and finish and at a price that normal humans can afford; the addition of a pop-up peep such as that on the early ZKK series would also be welcome.

I would like an action that combines Model 70 features with Mauser 98 features, but not quite Dakota's pattern. My ideal action would combine a Model 70 receiver, trigger, safety, bolt handle and bolt release with a Mauser 98 bolt (with guide rib), bolt sleeve, breech, and gas system. Model 70 locktime as well.

Add to that a correctly-dimensioned magazine box for each specific cartridge; an artfully-shaped receiver tang; and a tastefully executed steel triggerguard/floorplate assembly as done by Tom Burgess.

Best-grade steels used throughout, properly heat-treated to handle modern cartridges, and no investment castings or MIM parts. I want a forged and machined receiver and bolt, and all milled-steel parts after that.

AD

As mentioned by Johan the action size for the 30/06, 308 or even shorter cartridges does not have to be as large as a M70. Kimber has proven that to me and others had small ring Mausers long ago.

Soon Kimber will have a "long" action. The current 84M's and 8400's are smaller than other actions and function fine. Lets see what the long one is like.

While we're busy making copies of the zg-47 or Brno 21 & 22 actions lets leave the swell off of the rear of the bolt where the cocking cam is and where the shroud screws into. So we can get a lttle tigher fit and less bolt wobble. That was fine for the miltary mausers but since we're designing a sporting action let's tightenm it up a bit.

double square bridge done properly so you are not looking at $1000 dollars worth of custom work to get it right.

while I am dreaming a $200 dollar price tag.

I would really be interested in hearing about the steps required to machine a modern Mauser/Model 70 type action. I know, the first thing would probably be to bore a hole the size of the bolt through a piece of gun quality steel, but it would be intresting to hear the rest of the steps as well. What I would really be interested in hearing is what the "marginal" costs are to machine an action (what the piece of steel costs, and the labor cost per unit).

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:
While we're busy making copies of the zg-47 or Brno 21 & 22 actions lets leave the swell off of the rear of the bolt where the cocking cam is and where the shroud screws into. So we can get a lttle tigher fit and less bolt wobble. That was fine for the miltary mausers but since we're designing a sporting action let's tightenm it up a bit.

z1r,
Two points;
First, that swell at the rear of the bolt has little if any impact on the amount of wobble in the bolt. It does not enter the receiver bridge.
Second, the swell is there for a reason. By increasing the diameter of the bolt at that point, Mauser was able to reduce the slope of the cocking cam thereby easing bolt lift. In addition, there is more material available for a generous notch for the bolt sleeve lock. Regards, Bill.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:
While we're busy making copies of the zg-47 or Brno 21 & 22 actions lets leave the swell off of the rear of the bolt where the cocking cam is and where the shroud screws into. So we can get a lttle tigher fit and less bolt wobble. That was fine for the miltary mausers but since we're designing a sporting action let's tightenm it up a bit.

z1r,
Two points;
First, that swell at the rear of the bolt has little if any impact on the amount of wobble in the bolt. It does not enter the receiver bridge.
Second, the swell is there for a reason. By increasing the diameter of the bolt at that point, Mauser was able to reduce the slope of the cocking cam thereby easing bolt lift. In addition, there is more material available for a generous notch for the bolt sleeve lock. Regards, Bill.

Well put Bill.......couldn't have said it better myself.

quote:

Originally posted by kutenay:
Make these to a very high standard of fit and finish and at a price that normal humans can afford;

Aye, there's the rub!!

I personally would like to see either a very discrete bolt stop like that on the Dakota or a very pronounced, yet graceful one like that on the Argentine mauser which blends in beautifully. None of this akward push button crap.

More important than that, I would like either a pop-up peep site such as on the older BRNOs vs a Rigby style bolt peep.

I would give my left nut to have a follower like that on the Swedish mauser which serves as a last round bolt hold-open. Mmmmm last round hold open.

wes...

drop a mauser follower in a model 70 or 700... it'll stop...

most people grind that off


i want a double!!
jeffe

Where are you, Ray, let's have your input. Personally, I would take a couple of things from a couple of receivers - like the Mod 70, the '98 Mauser - but wait, didn't Bill Ruger already do that??????

I like tang saftey

/johan

quote:

Originally posted by 375HH:
I like tang saftey

/johan

I like tang too.......just not on my safety

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:

z1r,
Two points;
First, that swell at the rear of the bolt has little if any impact on the amount of wobble in the bolt.

It does if you consider that it requires the top of the tang to be relieved in order to accomodate the swell. Were that relief not there you would have more support and cut down some on the wobble.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
Second, the swell is there for a reason. By increasing the diameter of the bolt at that point, Mauser was able to reduce the slope of the cocking cam thereby easing bolt lift. In addition, there is more material available for a generous notch for the bolt sleeve lock. Regards, Bill.

I think this was mostly spin by the Mauser folks. Someone much better at the math than I pointed out that the notion of the supposed mechanical advantage is just that, supposed. Look to the cz550 and it's ease of cocking. The cz550's extractor cam setup also allows the bridge to be positioned further rearward. Thus, when the bolt is retracted fully you have more support and further reduce the wobble. This is especially apparent with the longer .375 H&H length cartridges.

So, I still say that if you reduced the clearances in the bolt bore and eliminated the swell you could tighten up the action considerably and not compromise any of the reliability.

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:

It does if you consider that it requires the top of the tang to be relieved in order to accomodate the swell. Were that relief not there you would have more support and cut down some on the wobble.

The front of the bolt never reaches that area that you're describing, therefore it's being guided by the smaller diameter bore first.

With all that in mind.......it was designed as a military weapon to withstand the elements, of which it did an outstanding job, but tightening up the tolerance between the bolt body and the bore of the receiver, while eliminating the "wobble", can also cause the bolt to completely bind during the feeding cycle, if forced to one side or the other. An example of that is the Nesika Bay actions.
While they are very precise and capapable of outstanding accuracy, they can bind up so hard during a fast cycle that the bolt can't move.
The tolearances in that area are too tight.

Having that area that close is really irrelevant in the first place, considering where the tolerances need to be tight is at the moment of bolt closure.
Let her ride free, until the moment of truth......with that system you get accuracy and dependability.

Ditto on double square bridges with an integral fold-up adjustable peep sight and a sear-locking tang safety, or even a low Buehler-style safety. Either way, easy to reach and disengage without moving the hand from the pistol grip. Available in left-handed. I'd like a C-ring breech, but I'd probably rather have an H-ring breech if it brought the cost down.

I really like the mounting system you guys have. I'd like a claw extractor like the Mauser or Winchester, that will pop over a round fed right into the chamber. Big, interesting-looking bolt release.

Steve

quote:

By increasing the diameter of the bolt at that point, Mauser was able to reduce the slope of the cocking cam thereby easing bolt lift.

I'm having difficulty getting my head around this one - though I'll freely admit to having no formal training in mechanical engineering, or firearms design.

Sure, increasing the diameter of the hub (or whatever else one wants to call that part of the bolt body) permits a reduction in the slope of the cocking cam notch. However, if the length of the bolt handle - from bolt centre to knob - remains the same, how is any reduction in bolt lift effort obtained? There is no gain in applied leverage, and the same amount of work has to be done to retract the firing pin a given distance, with the same amount of bolt rotation.

If I have this all wrong, could somebody give me a clear, mathematical explanation of the situation?

quote:

Originally posted by triggerguard1:

The front of the bolt never reaches that area that you're describing, therefore it's being guided by the smaller diameter bore first.

My point exactly. By keeping the bnolt at a constant diameter you would not need to reduce the height of the tang. It could lend support to the bolt.

quote:

Originally posted by triggerguard1:

With all that in mind.......it was designed as a military weapon to withstand the elements, of which it did an outstanding job, but tightening up the tolerance between the bolt body and the bore of the receiver, while eliminating the "wobble", can also cause the bolt to completely bind during the feeding cycle, if forced to one side or the other. An example of that is the Nesika Bay actions.
While they are very precise and capapable of outstanding accuracy, they can bind up so hard during a fast cycle that the bolt can't move.
The tolearances in that area are too tight.

Having that area that close is really irrelevant in the first place, considering where the tolerances need to be tight is at the moment of bolt closure.
Let her ride free, until the moment of truth......with that system you get accuracy and dependability.

Yes, I understand all that but I did not say tighten unduely. I simply said reduce the clearance. As you pointed out the Mauser was a military weapon with very generous clearances. Enough so that you can still tighten things up and have plenty of clearance left over.

As I recall a company actually took the best features from several firearms and encompassed them into one rifle. They used the M-70 safety, the Remington "three rings of steel" bolt face and the Browning enclosed clip in their gun. It was Marlin.....The gun should have been a winner and was possibly the worst flop in firearms history.

falling block double rifle action

This is made here in B.C. by Adolph Hagn and his partner/protege, Ralf Martini; I know a couple of guys with singleshots made by them and they are lovely. I would love one of the DR-FB rifles in 9.3x74R, but, they cost about as much as a new 4x4...............

Savage got their bolt gun right by me!