I was at the Tulsa Gun show last weekend. I heard some talk about Douglas Barrels going out of business. Does anyone have accurate information about this?

I haven’t heard that but perhaps, just perhaps… , they sent out one too many barrels with the caterpillar finish on the exterior!

Photo in this thread

CN; how many Douglas Barrels have you used? I have used dozens of them. Never had a bad one. Was that one in that old thread a rough turned one?
They are being sold; due to all the copies out there; the oldest and best barrel company; sales are down.
No they are not going out of business.

Sure hope not. Hard to find a better value, with quick delivery.

I’ve had north of a dozen and not less than 5 in the the gun room now. They have never done me wrong concerning performance but the exterior finish of their barrels is not their strong suite.

They didn't go out of business but have new owners.

quote:

Originally posted by ChickenNose:
I’ve had north of a dozen and not less than 5 in the the gun room now. They have never done me wrong concerning performance but the exterior finish of their barrels is not their strong suite.

The exterior finish on a rifle barrel is kind of the gunsmith's job. I have no problem doing my own polishing. To me, insisting a on a perfect exterior finish is like abdicating responsibility for part of the job. Regards, Bill.

I have talked to the new owner several times this week. Douglas Barrels is alive and well; they will not be moved from Cross Lanes WV, and the personnel running the place won't change. They did just buy a new Haas CNC lathe, for final contouring.
As for final finish; they are not going to be polished; that is the gunsmith's job. They are ground to a smooth finish, unless you order a Rough Turned one, in which case, you get one with lathe tooling marks on it.
Their barrels are made by a gear driven, push button method; No one else does it that way. That is why they have such a uniform twist. Other makers just pull the button through. Since 1948.

Been using their barrels for many years. Had 3 stinkers go back to them, two were crybaby customers (probably nothing wrong with them) and one (30 CA AG XX SS #7 Rem, 95 Palma chamber) gave it up after 200 rounds. Shot like a million bucks then it just DIED. We tried everything to make it shoot. Changed scopes, mounts, bolts, triggers etc. In each instance Stan took them back with little or no fuss and sent out replacements pronto. ALL the makers let a rotten one get away now and then. The GOOD guys make it right without a fuss.
When ordering get FT (finish turned and polished) for 10 or 15 bucks and you wont see threading on the outside!

If a barrel is "BAD", does or should the barrel maker also pay for the installer's fees as well?

Absolutely NOT! It don't work that way. They have no control over how it was installed, and that it often the problem.

quote:

Originally posted by Kolo-Pan:
If a barrel is "BAD", does or should the barrel maker also pay for the installer's fees as well?

I dont. Just part of doing biz. As a general rule, take care of these customers at times like this and it almost always comes back in other forms.

I spoke to Douglas today and from the horse's mouth they are not going anywhere anytime soon

I truly hope the new owners can make the investments in equipment, innovation, and people, to make Douglas the relevant player that it once was. A quick look at their web site will show they have not been making these investments for some time. Not knocking them, it is very hard for the small business to make the investment needed. One reason why so few last beyond the first generation. I wish them the best, we need all the barrel makers we can get. They all have 6 months to over a year backlog. Plenty of work there to be had.

John

There are plenty of cases when exterior finish is not important (special contours, etc) Never had a Douglas barel "walk" when doing an integral job.

Having said that...there's many times when it is desireable and "money ahead" to have an impecable outside finish...and when the brand always delivers better than ex pected performance...I go to Lothar Walther...delivery has never been over 6 weeks.

Kreiger's olutside finish is acceptable, they all shoot well..but delivery?

Had only one Pac Nor...Outside filnish wsas simoply put...terrible...So bad that I offered client..Pay me lotsa $$$ to make it right or send it back to Pac Nor. When I got it back..well... it WAS better..about all I can say

I used Douglas for a few years early on and no problems, but I prefer Lothar Walther over all barrels, nothing comes close to them IMO..

Douglas are a very good barrel, but I sure miss Stan!

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
Douglas are a very good barrel, but I sure miss Stan!

Yes.

Yes I miss Stan too. His and my father worked together at the Kopperston mine in the 60s.
As for Walther barrels; nothing special about them; they are just ok; I will stay with Douglas.
As I said above, the new Douglas owner just made a big investment in a new CNC lathe for final contouring.
Everything else is tooling dependent, which they inspect and grind when needed. A major feature of these are they are push buttoned, gear driven. Not just pulled through like all other makers do. And all air gauged; I have been there and done it. They all fall within one ten thousandth. Large calibers, below two, but in reality, most of them are below one.
K barrels; no; take way too long to get and I got one bent so bad I thought it had been used as a pry bar. Sent that one back and never used another one. NO need.

One of my first rifles was a 257 Roberts improved 40 degrees. 26-inch Douglas NO. 4. M98, Bishop stock, Weaver 4X with post. This was back in 1964, dad got it in a horse trade and gave it to me.

I drove to Walter Craig's in Selma and bought a RCBS Jr and several sets of dies, scale, powder measure and 20 cans of Hodgens H380. Plus 10 boxes of 87 grain Speers and other bullets for the rifles in the house collection.

Consistent 3 shot groups at 1/2 to 5/8 inch. Pretty good for a teenager!

The rifle had a lot of Georgia White Tails to its name, then I got drafted and headed off to war.

Sadly, one of my cousins talked dad out of the rifle when I was doing Uncle Sam's dirty work. Bought a 264 M70 Westerner when I got back stateside and was stationed in San Antonio.

Douglas barrels are first rate. I have a couple in the collection waiting to be fitted to an action and chambered.

I had a cousin who was a little prick. I kicked his ass a couple of times before he figured it out.

the second (and third) most accurate rifles I have ever owned have douglas barrels - the first is a shilen .. 4 is also a shilen, 5, 6, and 7 are CZ 550 take offs, 2 in 458 and 1 in 375 .. but i digress...

heck, i have VERY accurate shaw and "midway" barrels ... i expect other than gross errors, most of the accuracy comes from installation, rather than barrel maker

there's rugers, pacnors, baska, savage, and MRC barrels in the mix .. oh, and one old mossberg 144LS that shoots LIGHTS OUT --

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:

Their barrels are made by a gear driven, push button method; No one else does it that way. That is why they have such a uniform twist. Other makers just pull the button through. Since 1948.

Shilen is gear driven pull .. they make good barrels, too ... in fact... nevermind, I like Tom and don't want to give him angina

So, someone please explain to us, who are uninformed/ill-informed, why pushing a carbide rifling button is better than pulling a carbide rifling button. I've been machining since the mid '70s. I've worked in production shops, job shops and tool rooms (where we actually made and sharpened cutting tools). I bothered to take time out in the early '90s to attend and graduated from an accredited gunsmithing program (2yr), also. Never made or rifled a barrel, so I (and I am sure others) would like to know the pros and cons. I'd rather hear facts instead of opinion. Please explain it to this aged machinist.

Some makers do not use gears on their rifling machines; they pull the button through and rely on the button helix to form the rifling. That is the key. Those are facts, but there are many more steps to the process that matter as well.
As for S barrels; had two that would put two shots into 1/2 inch every time; then the rest of the group was 1.5 inches out.
Failure to properly stress relieve them. They replaced them.
So, zero need for me to use any other barrel. And yes, I have used them all.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Some makers do not use gears on their rifling machines; they pull the button through and rely on the button helix to form the rifling. That is the key. Those are facts, but there are many more steps to the process that matter as well.
As for S barrels; had two that would put two shots into 1/2 inch every time; then the rest of the group was 1.5 inches out.
Failure to properly stress relieve them. They replaced them.
So, zero need for me to use any other barrel. And yes, I have used them all.

Some who pull the button use gears to regulate twist rate, and some use CNC to control twist rate. I didn't ask about stress relief, I asked why push is superior to pull. I have not "used them all", but I've used most of the major makers barrels (Krieger, Hart, Bartlein, Shilen, Brux, MRC, and yes, Douglas, and maybe a Rock Creek or two). I fit and chamber 30 custom barrels per year. The only one I could not get to shoot was push button rifled, the company replaced it.

True; you didn't ask about stress relief, but it is vitally important and S did not do the job correctly on TWO barrels I had from them.
So, I no longer use them.
Which is why I mentioned it anyway. You can skip that part.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Some makers do not use gears on their rifling machines; they pull the button through and rely on the button helix to form the rifling. That is the key. Those are facts, but there are many more steps to the process that matter as well.

So the facts are some use gears and some do not. Your opinion is that gear driven is key to their quality. There are no facts stated as to why gear driven is better or necessary, or to the question as to why push button is superior to pull.

All the processes have advantages and disadvantages. Cut, button (either version), broach, CHF etc. Most of them are cost dependent, or OPINION. Someday Tom might discern the difference between perception (opinion) and fact.

In regards to the gear driving the button to maintain the rifling twist, how accurate does the twist need to be? If that is the factual basis for an accurate barrel, it must be mighty important? Garands had no twist tolerance, their inaccuracy is a well known FACT. M14's had no tolerance, but NM barrels had a 1.000" twist tolerance. That is a MIN of 1 in 12 and a MAX of 1 in 11. There are a few people that think M14's were accurate. The 20" A1 1 in 12 had a plus minus .125". 14.5" M4 1 in 7 also has a .125" twist tolerance. (Please note the information about twist are facts, from primary sources, accuracy comments are sarcasm pointed at Tom's opinions which provide no factual basis. As he does not recognize primary documents as relevant because his opinions supersede documentation.)

Gain twist has been popular for near 200 years, possibly longer I do not know. Many have the opinion that it is better. Mauser conducted studies in the 30's that showed a tapered tight bore with gain twist was the most accurate and had the least pressure generated. My opinion is that they found production was cost prohibitive.

Not too long ago I was given a tour at a large DOD contractors who button rifles all their barrels they produce in house. I did some machine work for them and looking at their barrel prints, no specs are given for twist requirements. Their guns are killing people every day in Ukraine and Israel. That is a fact.

So I'd take the opinion that the gear driven element is largely superfluous to being necessary for proclaiming they are better than all others. This combined with the observation that Tom isn't talking about gnats ass accuracy, and I doubt Douglas would stand behind his claim that "all fall within one ten thousandth" we will have to assume that statement is entirely irrelevant.

Good post.
But wait for it.

release the hound!

From the Douglas web page. I believe they are talking about bore diameter and not twist tolerances when they mention .0001 tolerance in their premium barrels.

12. Each Douglas barrel is air gauged. All our barrels will gauge at less than .0002 variations, and our “air gauge quality” or Premium barrels will be within .0001 inch. We do no lapping to achieve these tolerances. We prefer to engineer and build our precision into the barrels during the manufacturing process; not lap the bores into tolerance afterwards. This is an added cost for Douglas, but the results are worth it for our customers.

As for gear driven rifling machines, I can see where gear driven twists should be more consistent than ones done with a button alone. Just pulling a button through the bore it can vary if the bore is not consistent diameter or the steel is not consistent hardness or temper. While military barrels may not have very tight tolerances on twist that's not what I want for my match or hunting rifles. Not what i want to put on somebody else's rifle either. If it didn't matter we could all use hammer forged barrels and shoot .250 groups all day long. Yeah, I know, you have a hammer forged barrel that "shoots better than you do when you do your part". But consistent twist does matter.

NO idea why you guys are attacking me just because I use and promote the use of Douglas. For many reasons besides their quality; they are the easiest to deal with, and will make my custom contours. And delivery takes only a short time because each one is contoured to order.
I do know why; you old guys are using new barrel makers (and everyone is new because Douglas was the first custom maker here) and many of them have caused problems. I can't help that; get over it.
More facts; I wrote their web site, so what Clowdis quoted above, is true, and I have used their gauges on some barrel in the factory. Air gauge quality barrels will all be at or below .0001; NOT trist rate; that is bore diameter.
As for twist rate; I have never seen an and M14 barrel that vary One inch in an individual barrel. Come on man. And those service rifles are not "inaccurate" because of the barrels; as you all know, those systems are not conducive to best accuracy; 3 MOA is plenty for a combat rifle. But the barrels themselves are very precise. These were all made on Pratt and Whitney machines and causing a variation of one inch in a barrel is impossible (but NM will know).
Push buttoning? It is a precise way to do it and that contributes to their quality. Not hard to understand, but some seem not to. I didn't say there weren't other ways to do it, but there are certainly worse ways.
And reaming twice to get the smooth bore finish, what about that?
Don't you guys have better things to do than pick nits?
One of my jobs was managing tank cannon barrels and another was managing 105 and 120 tank ammo. So I am not totally unfamiliar with how barrels work. Tank cannons are just big single shot rifles.
Now, leave me alone; I have work to do. Please.

Much misleading information here. The implication is that the button can either be gear driven or not driven. How about sine bar rifling machines. they use a sine bar to impart the twist and have the advantage of being able to infinitely vary the twist or even make gain twist.

Twist tolerance. Are you talking variation in the average twist from the specified rate, or are we talking deviation of rate within a barrel. IE speeding up and slowing down of the rate along the length of the bore. If I specify a 1-10 and get a 1-10.25 I don't really care because if I have a bullet that needs at least 10 to stabilize, I will order at least a 9 to not be on the edge of stability. As for variation along the length of the barrel, regardless of if you pull or push the button, you can get some winding and unwinding of the rod as it passes down the barrel. Benchrest shooters were making a big deal of this 40 years ago, but I have not really heard much about it lately. My personal feeing is that this is one advantage of a slight gain twist, the gain ensures that the bullets rotation is always getting a gentle push in its rotation as it moves down the bore. We have had very good luck with Bartlien 8-6.5 twist barrels on our competition service rifles for the 75-90 gr bullets.

As I said, I wish them the best, and hope they make the needed investment and updates to regain the prominent position they one had.

Just one example of the need for updates. This from there web site.

"SILHOUETTE BARRELS FOR HANDGUNS
Silhouette shooting with handguns is becoming very popular. Most barrel makers are supplying a single shape for this pur­pose. We have been supplying our regular sporter shapes and the customers have been cutting to 15" or whatever the customer desires. This allows a choice of weights so as to match stock, action and sights to weight limits."

Becoming very popular? That was when 1978? Handgun silhouette shooting died in 1988 along with IHMSA founder Elgin Gates.

I do wish them all the best.

John

Guys,
let's give Tom a break --he's a wealth of knowledge, and funny comments .. and he likes douglas barrels... that's no where near the worst quirk here