I have a Nagant 1895 revolver I want to suppress. It is one of the only revolvers around that can be effectively suppressed due to the design that eliminates the cylinder gap.

I want to make (form 1) a copy of the Bramit device (using wipes and/or baffles) that was used back in the day it was an issue weapon. Does anyone have a drawing or photo of this silencer? I have seen a photo of one that is about 1x5 inches and telescopes over the barrel about 3 inches to attach to a bushing on the barrel with the extractor rod removed. But I have also read that it attached to the forward sight, so maybe the photo I saw was of something different.

Any suggestions? Thanks.

Ranb

You are aware that you're asking for advice on how to build an illegal device????

Duane,

What ranb40 is wanting to do is not illegal unless the state he lives in outlaws suppressors. (Washington allows possession but not use. Go figure.) The form 1 is an ATF that once you complete and pay the $200 tax, allows you to build a suppressor.

ranb40, you want to post your question at www.silencertalk.com. Lots of good info there on suppressors. Bet someone there can help you.

Duane Wiebe,

Are you aware that there are no federal laws prohibiting silencer ownership by unlicensed civilians in the USA?

Are you aware that when you say that silencers are illegal in the USA you are telling a lie? I know this because normal people actually believe that anything in the USA is legal unless forbidden by law. Stupid people like you actually seem to think that the government passes laws to give rights, not restrict a person’s actions.

Are you aware that the form 1 I was talking about in the original post is an ATF form 1 used for making and registering NFA weapons (machineguns, short barreled shotguns/rifles and silencers)?

Are you aware that the ATF routinely approves the tax stamp applications sent to them by people when they want to buy or make silencers?

Are you aware that the ATF never denies a tax stamp to someone who fills out the forms correctly?

Tell me how the silencers I have made with ATF approval on ATF form 1's are illegal devices.

So tell me why you are not a retard who is too stupid to read the law yourself. Tell me why you are so prejudiced that you think a simple gun muffler is obviously illegal.

Tell us all why retards like you are not the reason we are losing our rights to own firearms in the USA.

I really want to know why a sh-tbird like you is posting crap like this on a public forum.

Tell me why I should put up with your accusation.

Ranb

acpchuck45,

Thanks for the info. I am a regular poster on silencertests as Ranb. I posted the same request there, but while there were a few replies, no photos so far.

Ranb

Ranb40

There might be a bit of confusion with your post, You mentioned SUPPRESSORS, in one post and SILENCERS in another, they are technically 2 different devices although one will do both

A suppressor will suppress the rapport of a high velocity load and silence the rapport on a subsonic load. SUppressors generally have large chambers behind the muzzle and baffels in front

SIlencers on the other hand can effectively ONLY be used with subsonic loads and usually only have a small cHamber and baffels infront of the muzzle

You might get a few more responses if you clear up exactly what it is you want...... a silencer or a suppressor ?

If it's a good suppressor your after, REFLEX suppressors (google) used to have lots of pics and engineer specs of the development of thier suppressors.

regards
S&F

quote:

Originally posted by ranb40:
Duane Wiebe,

Are you aware that there are no federal laws prohibiting silencer ownership by unlicensed civilians in the USA?

Are you aware that when you say that silencers are illegal in the USA you are telling a lie? I know this because normal people actually believe that anything in the USA is legal unless forbidden by law. Stupid people like you actually seem to think that the government passes laws to give rights, not restrict a person’s actions.

Are you aware that the form 1 I was talking about in the original post is an ATF form 1 used for making and registering NFA weapons (machineguns, short barreled shotguns/rifles and silencers)?

Are you aware that the ATF routinely approves the tax stamp applications sent to them by people when they want to buy or make silencers?

Are you aware that the ATF never denies a tax stamp to someone who fills out the forms correctly?

Tell me how the silencers I have made with ATF approval on ATF form 1's are illegal devices.

So tell me why you are not a retard who is too stupid to read the law yourself. Tell me why you are so prejudiced that you think a simple gun muffler is obviously illegal.

Tell us all why retards like you are not the reason we are losing our rights to own firearms in the USA.

I really want to know why a sh-tbird like you is posting crap like this on a public forum.

Tell me why I should put up with your accusation.

Ranb

That is just no way of answering at all.
It was a simple question, and you just dumped the trash bucket.
In the head of one of the finest gunmakers through all times in the whole universe.

And even if he was not, your answer was still rude and impolite.

Untill I see an improovement of your manners, I for one will not bother to spend time on you at all.

ranb40

Did you forget your meds this morning?

You are my first addition to my ignore list.

Ranb40, your out of line with that string of comments to Mr.Wiebe

quote:

Originally posted by ranb40:
Duane Wiebe,

Are you aware that there are no federal laws prohibiting silencer ownership by unlicensed civilians in the USA?

Are you aware that when you say that silencers are illegal in the USA you are telling a lie? I know this because normal people actually believe that anything in the USA is legal unless forbidden by law. Stupid people like you actually seem to think that the government passes laws to give rights, not restrict a person’s actions.

Are you aware that the form 1 I was talking about in the original post is an ATF form 1 used for making and registering NFA weapons (machineguns, short barreled shotguns/rifles and silencers)?

Are you aware that the ATF routinely approves the tax stamp applications sent to them by people when they want to buy or make silencers?

Are you aware that the ATF never denies a tax stamp to someone who fills out the forms correctly?

Tell me how the silencers I have made with ATF approval on ATF form 1's are illegal devices.

So tell me why you are not a retard who is too stupid to read the law yourself. Tell me why you are so prejudiced that you think a simple gun muffler is obviously illegal.

Tell us all why retards like you are not the reason we are losing our rights to own firearms in the USA.

I really want to know why a sh-tbird like you is posting crap like this on a public forum.

Tell me why I should put up with your accusation.

Ranb

Actually, Ranb, Duane, and several others, are aware that the US government has veto, not fiat power(that's what you meant to say, btw), except in the case of our legal tender, which is no longer backed by species, and is fiat money. And, thanks for stating that, with veto power can come conditions of ownership.

Your reaction is out of line, but, I expect with your level of response, you won't recognize this.

Duane's response, based off your first paragraph, reads like THOUSANDS of other posts that start "i want a suppressor" ,.. and your futher question of "any suggestions" .. well, you have received "suggestions" haven't you? Though not the ones you may have wished to receive, that frequently happens.

To answer your "only" question.. no, I doubt anyone has pictures of a bramit device, though a nagant may be a neat idea for a base, with its action sealing action.

Sorry you are pissed off, but that doesn't HAVE to be shared

quote:

Originally posted by ShortandFat:
Ranb40

There might be a bit of confusion with your post, You mentioned SUPPRESSORS, in one post and SILENCERS in another, they are technically 2 different devices although one will do both.

I have never heard of silencer and suppressor being two different things. Silencer is a legal term and suppressor is waht it actually does. Anyway, I need a photo of the Bramit device to use on my Nagant revolver. The ammo is subsonic and has a very small powder charge. I have my own designs for each. Thanks.

Ranb

quote:

That is just no way of answering at all.
It was a simple question, and you just dumped the trash bucket.
In the head of one of the finest gunmakers through all times in the whole universe.

And even if he was not, your answer was still rude and impolite.

Untill I see an improovement of your manners, I for one will not bother to spend time on you at all.

I noticed that you have no comment on Wiebe's post at all. It does not bother you that he doesn't even try to find out if silencers were legal or not in the USA before libeling me? It is obvious to the most casual observer that he cares nothing about manners on a public forum. A decent person would have at least asked if they were legal instead of assuming they were not. "One of the finest" my ass. I am sick of dealing with personalities like his.

Ranb

Ranb, You are an ass! I wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire.
Butch

double post

Mr. Wiebe only made a statement, right or wrong...stupid, retard, sh-tbird, i've seen the first two but that has to be a rare bird. Googled it but found nothing. Wonder why you havent got much responce or pictures! Its your kind of reply I'm tired of.

I have spent a significant mount of time, money and effort in keeping parts of my firearm collection legal. Is it too much to ask that I be able to ask a simple harmless question on this forum and not be accused of possibly breaking the law? There is nothing immoral or illegal about obtaining ATF authorization to make a silencer.

Wiebe was not stating a simple question. He was implying that silencers are illegal in the USA. What kind of American assumes that something as harmless as making a silencer on a form 1 is illegal? I might as well go to China and see if I get a better reception.

If Wiebe had taken just a little time to look up NFA law, then he could have avoided his grossly insulting post. Instead it seems ignorance is his ally. I said I wanted to make a copy of a Bramit device on a form 1. If he had bothered to learn a little, then he would have known this means I would have the approval of the BATFE. But no, he just had to assume that I was foolish enough to consider breaking the law and stupid enough to post about it on a public forum.

Ranb

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

Your reaction is out of line, but, I expect with your level of response, you won't recognize this.

Duane's response, based off your first paragraph, reads like THOUSANDS of other posts that start "i want a suppressor" ,.. and your futher question of "any suggestions" .. well, you have received "suggestions" haven't you? Though not the ones you may have wished to receive, that frequently happens.

My post implied "I want to make a legal silencer†There is a difference. I certainly did not need most of the suggestions by those who fail to see that Wiebe was wrong in his post.

If I had just brushed off Wiebe's post as the ignorant ranting of a gun control nut, then it would have been a disservice to those who obey the law when owning firearms. Suggesting that making a weapon is illegal just boggles the mind. Seeing that others here praise his experience just makes it even more astounding that he would post in that manner.

I have requested help on the Bramit device on Subguns.com, Silencertests.com and a few other places. This is the only forum that has treated me in such a shoddy manner.

Thank you for your reply.

Ranb

quote:

Originally posted by ranb40:

quote:

That is just no way of answering at all.
It was a simple question, and you just dumped the trash bucket.
In the head of one of the finest gunmakers through all times in the whole universe.

And even if he was not, your answer was still rude and impolite.

Untill I see an improovement of your manners, I for one will not bother to spend time on you at all.

I noticed that you have no comment on Wiebe's post at all. It does not bother you that he doesn't even try to find out if silencers were legal or not in the USA before libeling me? It is obvious to the most casual observer that he cares nothing about manners on a public forum. A decent person would have at least asked if they were legal instead of assuming they were not. "One of the finest" my ass. I am sick of dealing with personalities like his.

Ranb

Man you get angry real fast. You're not fixin to go postal on anyone are you? With an attitude like you have displayed to a simple question, makes me wonder how you would fare if they included mental background checks before approving gun and accessory purchases.

I install a lot of silencers but I think if you were to show up to my shop with a hint of an attitude like you have shown here, I would send you walking.

Ranb, you are shy a bucket full of manners - enough to lose you the benefit of any doubt, and all attention.

Some unsolicited advice: An apology is in order, and would go a long way to getting you back on the right foot around here.

I have been folowing this with some amazement. The BATF does not just issue the tax stamp. The application must first be approved by either the local sheriff or a judge. My local sheriff will NOT approve an application for a "suppressor" and the only local judge who approved such things, no longer does. Presumably ranb40 has a more acccomodating local environment?
Peter.

Hey Ran, I can see why you're pissed man, I hate it when you go to ask a simple question and rather than answering it people start in on whether or not it is legal or should be done. If I ask a question I just want the answer, not a lesson on the legalities (otherwise I'd ask about that right?)

As frustrating as it is, I believe that Duane commented out of lack of knowledge, which to me is forgivable. I think your response was out of hand, rather than going apeshit on the guy you could have taken it as an opportunity to educate him, and other people that might be ignorant of the national laws (for instance I live in Kalifornia where many things are illegal, and it is easy to sometimes forget that other states might actually be more American).

Instead you allowed your anger to flow through the keyboard, now you probably feel ganged up on. this forum has forgiven people for much worse offenses than getting angry and typing fast. why not just rectify it now, let there be no hard feelings, and even if nobody has the right picture, they'll be happy to help you when you need something they can provide.

Now, onto silencers. I don't know if you have checked the patent office online, but they have some cool stuff you can retrieve, the H&K design for a multi-part silencer has always intrigued me. they also have different attachment systems shown if you get good on the search, might give you some ideas about how to mount it.

Red

quote:

Originally posted by Westpac:
Man you get angry real fast. You're not fixin to go postal on anyone are you? With an attitude like you have displayed to a simple question, makes me wonder how you would fare if they included mental background checks before approving gun and accessory purchases.

I install a lot of silencers but I think if you were to show up to my shop with a hint of an attitude like you have shown here, I would send you walking.

It has been a long time since I went off on someone face to face, and that was over a safety violation. I have no reason to doubt that you are an honorable person; if I showed up at any gun shop and was given the attitude that Wiebe displayed, then they would never get my business again.

Ranb

In washington, I believe it is legal to own a suppressor with the appropriate paperwork, however, it is illegal to USE said suppressor in this state. at least that is my understanding. my neighbor has 1 or 2 suppressor, for which he had to deal with weeks of paperwork and red tape. much the same as a suppressor, in washington, it is legal to own a fully auto weapon with the appropriate paperwork, but again, not legal to fire. we must go to idaho for that. (again, this is my understanding, not to be construed as law).

ranb40, Mr. Wiebe is a respected gunsmith and was referring to washington state law. i say you owe him an apology for delving into personal attacks and name calling. were you civil and polite, you'd have likely gotten your answer by now...

heath

Mr. Wiebe is correct, building a suppressor is illegal, unless the proper paperwork exist. In Ranb40's first post he was never said that he had any paperwork. So Duane's message was correct, with the evidence at hand its illegal.

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
Some unsolicited advice: An apology is in order, and would go a long way to getting you back on the right foot around here.

You are right, an apology is in order. While I accused Wiebe of being several things, what he did to me was far worse. I wonder what he would say if I said I was going out for a drive in my pickup on public roads? Would anyone here expect him to say that it is illegal to for me to drive because I did not tell him I had authorization (driver’s license and tags) from the state to drive? I do not think so.

So why did he respond with a statement that implied I was asking for advice on doing something illegal? His statement shows an extreme prejudice against gun owners. Nothing I said should have led any rational person to conclude that I was going to do anything illegal. I even said I was going to use a form 1. How much more do I have to say? Do I have to paint a picture? I want to do something legal (make a silencer) and do it with ATF authorization (form 1). I have never ever said anything on this forum that would lead anyone to believe I would break the law. But Wiebe, who knows nothing about me except that I want to make a silencer choose to say I may break the law.

The people on this forum who are defending this kind of prejudice are the kind of people who will allow gun rights to go down the tube in the USA. With enemies like them, we will not need the Violence Policy Center and the Brady Campaign to take away our rights. The people we put in Congress will do it with the blessing of some of the people here.

I’m not going to hold my breathe waiting for an apology from Wiebe.

Ranb

quote:

Originally posted by 724wd:
ranb40, Mr. Wiebe is a respected gunsmith and was referring to washington state law. i say you owe him an apology for delving into personal attacks and name calling. were you civil and polite, you'd have likely gotten your answer by now...

heath

He said silencers were illegal. They are legal to buy, sell, own, and make in WA. There is no gray area here, he was wrong and still is. I say he owes me an aplogy for implying I want to to do something illegal. I was polite until he decided I was not worthy of a polite reply.

Ranb

quote:

Originally posted by RayGunter:
Mr. Wiebe is correct, building a suppressor is illegal, unless the proper paperwork exist. In Ranb40's first post he was never said that he had any paperwork. So Duane's message was correct, with the evidence at hand its illegal.

That is like saying driving a car on public roads is illegal unless you have a license. Nobody here assumes that a person is breaking the law just because they are driving a car. Why am I not given the benefit of the doubt?

I said in my original post that I was going to use a form 1. If you do not know what kind of paperwork this is, then maybe you better find out before you falsely claim that I am not going to use paperwork to obtain the tax stamp to make the silencer legally. Wiebe claimed it was illegal, not illegal without the right authorization. He made a blanket statement that was indefensible.

I live in Mason County. Sheriff Whybark signed off on several ATF form 1's for me so I could make the silencers. In addition to the form 1's, I also had to fill out the 5330.20, finger print cards, obtain two passport sized photos and send it all in with a check for $200. I know what I am talking about here. I want to know why I am not getting the benefit of the doubt like everyone here deserves.

Ranb

quote:

Originally posted by Dago Red:
Now, onto silencers. I don't know if you have checked the patent office online, but they have some cool stuff you can retrieve, the H&K design for a multi-part silencer has always intrigued me. they also have different attachment systems shown if you get good on the search, might give you some ideas about how to mount it.

Red

Thanks. I wanted the Bramit picture because I want to duplicate the exterior appearance. The internals will be of my own design like I do with all of my other silencers.

Ranb

Ok,

I'll say what everyone else is too polite to say, you're a cad. I would have said cunt but that might get me banned.

The fact is that without the paperwork, permits, and possibly the pope's blessing, it is illegal. You did not explicitly state that you had obtained all the necessary clearances, thus Mr Wiebe's reply. Had you been more clear you might have gotten some help. As it is, I'd say you're on your own.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
I have been folowing this with some amazement. The BATF does not just issue the tax stamp. The application must first be approved by either the local sheriff or a judge. My local sheriff will NOT approve an application for a "suppressor" and the only local judge who approved such things, no longer does. Presumably ranb40 has a more acccomodating local environment?
Peter.

thats not quite true peter you can do this without local oversight with the right paperwork.

quote:

He said silencers were illegal. They are legal to buy, sell, own, and make in WA. There is no gray area here, he was wrong and still is. I say he owes me an aplogy for implying I want to to do something illegal. I was polite until he decided I was not worthy of a polite reply.

His reply was polite compared the the trash you posted. I would be happy to read one of Mr Wiebe's posts anyday. As to yours I will no longer have to.

This is the 2nd time he's done this that I'm aware of. Gun boards tend to attract mentally ill people from time to time.

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by ranb40:
The people on this forum who are defending this kind of prejudice are the kind of people who will allow gun rights to go down the tube in the USA. With enemies like them, we will not need the Violence Policy Center and the Brady Campaign to take away our rights. The people we put in Congress will do it with the blessing of some of the people here.

You might give consideration to the fact that overly aggressive, overly indignant, self righteous people like yourself are preventing a coalition from happening. You aren't garnering my support. You've likely lost some here today.

BTW.......ever get that barrel off the Mauser action? Mr. Wiebe probably does that stuff in his sleep. Pretty good resource.

Oh wait! He already got in on that thread!

quote:

I’m not going to hold my breathe waiting for an apology from Wiebe.

Pity. I likely could applaud you holding your breath.

quote:

Originally posted by rem721:
The fact is that without the paperwork, permits, and possibly the pope's blessing, it is illegal. You did not explicitly state that you had obtained all the necessary clearances, thus Mr Wiebe's reply. Had you been more clear you might have gotten some help.

Actually, he did so:

quote:

Originally posted by ranb40:
I want to make (form 1) a copy of the Bramit device...

While I agree that he shouldn't have unloaded on Duane, there was no need for futher elaboration in his original post to make the legality quite clear.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Beyond the ill-mannered........it's an interesting subject.

The following linked article seems to suggest that these are pictures of the Nagant & Bramit device in the CIA museum at Langly.

http://guns.connect.fi/gow/nagant.html

BRAMIT for a Mosin Nagant rifle......


more...

quote:

Originally posted by ranb40:
You are right, an apology is in order. While I accused Wiebe of being several things, what he did to me was far worse.
Ranb

You must be kidding. He makes a simple statement and you call him a shitbird and a retard and what he did was far worse? Are you for real?

quote:

thats not quite true peter you can do this without local oversight with the right paperwork

Crusher, I was referring to an individual rather than a business. I assume that is what you are referring to? If not, then I am at a loss.
Peter.

Wow, I think your take on this is really screwed up. I've already said I don't like replies telling people of the legality or advisability of an idea if that wasn't the question, I think you're way way off on saying people like him are the reason we loose our political footing. People like you are the reason we have a hard time keeping bad laws from being implemented and an impossible time getting them reversed. when the media looks into it, or anti-gun organizations they try to find people like you that get mean, attack other shooters, and come off sounding mad and close minded. you're the guy the media/anti's are going to quote.

Red

I am anti-gun in a few circumstances. Felons and the mentally unstable shouldn't have access to guns..let alone a gun with a suppressor. In this case, the hair-trigger anger response says something about the mental stability of ranb40. I don't think he should be given any more help on how to make a suppressor.