aks74n

Thank you for the informative post. As I live in one of 15 states with regulations prohibiting these devices, your information and discussion are welcome and helpful.

Ranb40

You remind me of little Johnny in the back of a 200 person marching band who can't understand why the other 199 members are all out of step. I don't think there is another poster to this thread who believes that either your initial response or your continued negative comments are appropriate. I also believe that while your support for the rights of USA citizens is shared by most, your fanatical rantings are fuel for those who would suppress those very rights.

Several posters have suggested this, but I will repeat. If you want to be effective with your point; try to interpret responses in more than one way. Understand that there are limitations to this form of communication. You are the only person posting on this thread to believe your interpretation of the intent of Mr Weibe's question.

This discussion is helpful for some of us who know little of the laws or use of suppression devices. It appears you have been given some links and thoughts in response to your original question. I hope that has been helpful.

I suggest you go back and actually read the posts. There are a lot of very appropriate and thoughtful advice.

Life is very short, time is very precious. Much of this thread is a waste of time unless you listen and learn.

Roger

Gosh!

Westpac your way of asking about the other exception to possession of NFA weapons is, to me, the proper way of explaining to someone some thing they are not aware of. My response to Mr Wiebe was to explain that a suppressor is legal as is the manufacturing of one with the proper AFT paperwork.

Interestingly, when I responded with my post I asked my son for the information on suppressors as he has become very familiar with ownership requirements. He was interested in this thread and posted as "aks74n" to explain the ownership requirements.

When he goes to the local gun range and people ask about his suppressor, they often state they thought they are illegal. He explains the ownership requirements and then (if he still has ammo left) lets them shoot it. I have yet to watch someone shoot his SIG with the suppressor who doesn't laugh like a little kid when they are done. I did the first time I shot it It is just so different in terms of what people are used to. He is thanked for the opportunity and makes friends this way with those that have a common interest in firearms.

I hate thinking what the reaction would be if he were to respond in the same manner that ranb40 has done in this thread. To each their own, but I prefer the courteous and informative response when someone doesn't know or understand. An immediate verbal thrashing of someone because they don't know is not appropriate.

I have kept out of this, but it is impossible not to completely agree with duckboat.

quote:

Originally posted by RogerR:
Ranb40

You remind me of little Johnny in the back of a 200 person marching band who can't understand why the other 199 members are all out of step.

I am not the one out of step here. Did you read the other posts on this thread besides mine?

Wiebe says silencers are illegal even when made on a form 1.

RayGunter does not know what a form 1 is when referring to silencers.

Ireload2 thinks that I am risking my freedom merely by owning a legal silencer in WA state. He also believes that a legal silencer in
WA state that was used elsewhere legally is cause for arrest in WA.

adrock is spooked by my replies to the numerous posts directed at me.

Ranb

quote:

Originally posted by acpchuck45:I hate thinking what the reaction would be if he were to respond in the same manner that ranb40 has done in this thread. To each their own, but I prefer the courteous and informative response when someone doesn't know or understand. An immediate verbal thrashing of someone because they don't know is not appropriate.

On occasion I have the opportunity to bring some of my silencers to the rifle range. Usually someone notices them and ask how I got it or built it. Others claim they are illegal. When I respond to claims that I am breaking the law, I show them my form 1 and explain how the law works and allows me to make a silencer. I am polite and patient when explaining this. No one has ever said they doubted me when I said I used a form 1 to legally build my silencers.

Duane Wiebe is the ONLY person I have ever exchanged messages with on a gun forum who said I was attempting to do something illegal after I said I was using a form 1 to make a silencer. He had all the time in the world to educate himself on silencer law before making his post. He chose not to and said I was asking for advice on making an illegal device. It was a very simple thing for Wiebe to do the right thing and he chose not to. So why did he do this?

Some people here are trying to excuse his actions for various reasons. He says he did it for PR reasons. Sounds like a poor reason to me. Who else here thinks it is good PR to accuse a person of building a illegal device even when told it is being done legally? These are not hypothetical questions. Thanks.

Ranb

quote:

Originally posted by ranb40:

On occasion .....I bring some of my silencers to the rifle range..... Others claim they are illegal. When I respond...... I am polite and patient when explaining this.....Ranb

I assume this means only a complete ass in the cyber world. BUT...In person you're a real gentleman. I like Butch's response.

This is how your post started.

quote:

Originally posted by :
I want to make (form 1) a copy of the Bramit device.

Try googling (form 1) and see if that helps the readers of this forum know that you have all your paperwork done to do this legally. You could have saved yourself and all of us the if you just stated in clear English that you have done all the necessary paper work. Oh, and when I say ALL the paperwork, does this include registering with the St.deprmt for 1750greenbacks a year to manufacture these sillencers???????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Oh, what the heck,I might as well jump in here too.

When I first read Mr. Wiebe's posting, I automatically read it as his asking "Are you aware that silencers are illegal if you haven't done the necessary paperwork?" I did not see anything in his question that suggested you were a crook, or an ass, or anything else unpleasant. It was my presumption that because Mr.Wiebe is not a professional clerk-typist, he just used a shortened version of asking you that, in preparation for warning you if you answered something like "I didn't know that', or, "I don't care..."

Then I read your response, and I thought "Geez, this guy both has a hair-trigger, and is really crude and rude."

Now that I have read more of your material, I recall my own days as a police officer in several countries. With that in mind, let me tell you about "Circle Service". When I was a young, single, Sheriff's Deputy I would get off shift at 1 a.m., and rather than go home, I'd go ride as the second man in a car with some California Highway Patrol Officer, usually until dawn. They had to patrol alone, and in our isolated, rural county that could be damned dangerous.

Once while with a particular officer, he stopped a car just to let them know one of their headlights was out. Immediately two clowns hopped out of the vehicle and started calling him a MF'er, honky white-trash, racist, and a bunch of other unnecessary stuff. Whereupon he came back to the car, got our copy of the CVC (California Vehicle Code) and returned to their car, with me backing him up.

Then, he wrote them a ticket for not having a working front headlamp, not having a working glove-box light (he law does not require a glove box light, but it DID require that ALL lights on a vehicle work, and their glove box light did not work. He wrote them for having their license plate mounted too low (the CVC specifies a minimum and maximum distance the license plate can be from the ground.) He wrote them for having a non-factory spec muffler. It was a good muffler, but it was not factory spec.

I don't recall what all he wrote them for, but it ended up being 15-20 items.

When he got back in the car, I called him on it, saying "That was pretty C-S, wasn't it?" He said, "Yeh, but there's only so much of that attitude a guy can put up with. So I gave them Circle Service."

Anyway, your responses show a young man who can't control his emotions in public, and whose mouth will inevitably get him in more trouble than his actual intent.

So, by way of advice, I suggest another old saying to you. "Before starting mouth, engage brain."

There is a lot to be gained by being known as a good, polite, guy on this board. If you become adamant about being an ass, you will get little here except grief or silence.

Best wishes either way. It is your life and your choice.

quote:

Originally posted by ranb40:
Who else here thinks it is good PR to accuse a person of building a illegal device even when told it is being done legally?

By your own admission Duane didn't accuse you of building an illegal device.

"He (chose not to) and said I was asking for advice on making an illegal device."

Which is more in line with the actual post....

"You are aware that you're asking for advice on how to build an illegal device????

"asking for advice" is a far cry from "accuse a person of building a illegal device".

There was nothing in Duane's post that was accusatory in nature. Regardless whether Duane had intimate knowledge of the silencer/suppressor laws.........your reaction was completely over the top.

To whit:

"Stupid people like you...."

"So tell me why you are not a retard who is too stupid...."

"Tell us all why retards like you...."

"a sh-tbird like you is posting crap..."

""One of the finest" my ass. I am sick of dealing with personalities like his."

"His statement shows an extreme prejudice against gun owners."

"The people on this forum who are defending this kind of prejudice are the kind of people who will allow gun rights to go down the tube in the USA."

"He made a blanket statement that was indefensible."

"He was also arrogant and condescending..."

"His post was extremely rude..."

"Now we have Wiebe trying to divide the gun community...."

"He phrased his statement in a way to both state a fact (which was actually wrong) and accuse me of intending to build an illegal silencer."

"Wiebe does not need evidence, he just makes an assumption and goes with it, no matter who he hurts."

(To Wiebe) "Your behavior is very bizarre..."

"I would rather tell him he is wrong and give him a taste of his own medicine."



You have issues, Skippy.

Unfortunately, they aren't confined to silencers and suppressors.

ranb40. Not spooked, just not understanding.

I am glad to read that when people ask you in person about the legality of owning a suppressor you take the time to explain and show them the paperwork so they know it can be done. However after reading your earlier postings, how many people would have drawn that conclusion? Why be so different in a web forum than in person?

Similar to person to person interactions, people on forums quickly decide who they want to interact with and who they avoid. Ask yourself, will the people to whom you have responded to here as well as others who have read this tread (1500+) be eager to respond to any future questions you may post? (Actually some may just for the entertainment value.) Rather than using this thread as an opportunity to educate or inform others (such as Westpac's posts did), you verbally attacked those people who didn't know the legalities of owning and/or building a suppressor. What did you gain by doing that?

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:Try googling (form 1) and see if that helps the readers of this forum know that you have all your paperwork done to do this legally. You could have saved yourself and all of us the if you just stated in clear English that you have done all the necessary paper work. Oh, and when I say ALL the paperwork, does this include registering with the St.deprmt for 1750greenbacks a year to manufacture these sillencers???????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Do you understand that there is a difference between a person making a silencer by obtaining a tax stamp on an ATF form 1 and a person/business obtaining an FFL/SOT to operate a business to manufacture NFA weapons including silencers? I did not want to pay the fees for an FFL and SOT. If I did this, then I would have to renew the FFL every three years and yearly SOT fee of $500 to keep the silencers. It is much cheaper and easier for me to use the ATF form 1.

It is not necessary for me to say I am obtaining the required legal paperwork when I ask for advice on this forum. It should be presumed that I am not doing anything illegal when talking about making a silencer. As far as I know the BATFE has never denied a tax stamp to any person who filled out the forms correctly. That someone here said I was asking advice on making an illegal device shows they have no respect for me and would rather insult me on the public forum instead of asking politely about the legalities or using a PM to ask.

When I initially typed out my original post, I did not make any mention of legal forms or procedures. When I post on other gun forums, the only time I say anything about ATF forms is to give advice on how to fill them out or to differentiate my home made (form 1) silencers from a professionally manufactured silencer. Before I posted here, I inserted the words “form 1†in parentheses to ensure that anyone reading the post would know that I was an unlicensed person getting ATF authorization and not doing anything illegal.

It is obvious that I made a big mistake here when I assumed that people would not think I was going to make an illegal silencer. In the future I will post a link to the legalities of silencer ownership to make sure people reading my posts about silencers.

Why don’t the posters on Subguns and Silencertests forums assume that I am asking for advice on making an illegal device when I post about silencers? It is not just because those forums deal mainly in NFA weapons. I think it is because they do not presume a poster is an idiot or criminal just because they are talking about making silencers. The members of the accurate reloading forums should strive to do the same.

Anyone who unjustly questions a person's integrity in public deserves a verbal bitch slapping. Especially those people who do this sort of things for PR reasons.

Ranb

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck: .....When he got back in the car, I called him on it, saying "That was pretty C-S, wasn't it?" He said, "Yeh, but there's only so much of that attitude a guy can put up with. So I gave them Circle Service."

Anyway, your responses show a young man who can't control his emotions in public, and whose mouth will inevitably get him in more trouble than his actual intent.

So, by way of advice, I suggest another old saying to you. "Before starting mouth, engage brain."

There is a lot to be gained by being known as a good, polite, guy on this board. If you become adamant about being an ass, you will get little here except grief or silence.

Best wishes either way. It is your life and your choice.

I am no longer a young man. I am in my 40’s and a retired Sailor. I used to be an FFL in Hawaii when living in Navy housing. I sometimes do engage my mouth before engaging my brain, but it is usually in more humorous circumstances. There is only so much attitude I can take from someone telling me I am wanting to do something illegal, and Wiebe crossed the line.

Ranb

quote:

Originally posted by ranb40:
That someone here said I was asking advice on making an illegal device shows they have no respect for me ...
Ranb

It goes without saying that after your tirades, no one has any respect for you.

So now, three pages later (entertaining as it was), what have we learned? W don't know a heck of a lot about Class 3 and R over-reacted.
You guys are better than television.
Walt

quote:

Originally posted by acpchuck45:
ranb40. Not spooked, just not understanding.

…..However after reading your earlier postings, how many people would have drawn that conclusion? Why be so different in a web forum than in person?

Similar to person to person interactions, people on forums quickly decide who they want to interact with and who they avoid. Ask yourself, will the people to whom you have responded to here as well as others who have read this tread (1500+) be eager to respond to any future questions you may post? (Actually some may just for the entertainment value.) Rather than using this thread as an opportunity to educate or inform others (such as Westpac's posts did), you verbally attacked those people who didn't know the legalities of owning and/or building a suppressor. What did you gain by doing that?

Well, he did say spooked.

On the internet, I frequently run into people who believe the worst in human nature and refuse to believe that a person is not breaking the law when doing something involving firearms. I have exchanged e-mails with people who still believed that making silencers was illegal even after walking them through the steps for obtaining a tax stamp with an ATF form 1. One person claiming to be a police officer claimed that it did not matter if a silencer was registered in TX, the police would arrest them anyway. I guess his fellow cops in TX are very corrupt in this his opinion. In person I have run into those who wanted me to procure a machinegun or make them an unregistered silencer. I politely decline and inform them of the legalities involved. If they persist, then I get nasty.

The internet can bring out the worst in people, I am an example of that. I do not know if it has brought out worse in Weibe than this thread, but I do not care to search his other posts.

As for alienating others on this forum, I’m sure I have done this. When I first typed out my response to Wiebe’s inflammatory post, it was much longer and more ranting as I was pissed off. After I finished typing, I was no longer upset so I cut out most of the insults and shorten the post. I felt some posturing was in order as I was unjustly accused of asking advice on making an illegal silencer. I do not care to turn the other cheek when insulted, especially online as I do not know if the person who insulted me is going to respond. There is lots of hit and run done on the internet.

It is not just that Wiebe and others here did not know the legalities of silencer ownership, it is that they refused to learn and assumed that I was going to break the law. Very insulting to me when they use ignorance to support their reasons to attack me online. Did you notice that further on down in this thread there still are people replying that do not understand NFA law enough to offer an informed opinion on the legalities involved? Gunmaker still thinks I need to spend more than $200 for ATF authorization to make a silencer.

Ranb

quote:

Originally posted by GrandView:
You have issues, Skippy.

Unfortunately, they aren't confined to silencers and suppressors.

You are correct, my issues also extend to those people who think silencers are illegal in the USA even when obtaining ATF authorization to make them.

Ranb

ranb----why don't you go home to mamma and brutz on her apron strings.

ztreh, why don't you stop being a troll, we do not need any more in this thread.

Lordy, Lordy, Lordy!

What people write can easily be interpreted to have a tone other than what the author intended. I respect ranb40 for his talent in building suppressors and the Bramit project is certainly an interesting one. Further, I think that several people have learned from this thread that suppressors are not in fact illegal. Just the opposite, as long as the appropriate federal form is filled out and the tax paid.

Is there any chance of terminating the argument and limiting the posts to discussion of the Bramit project?

You guys are just wasting your time. All the fact, examples, suggestions will never get him to accept that he overreacted. Let him go argue with himself.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:
You guys are just wasting your time. All the fact, examples, suggestions will never get him to accept that he overreacted. Let him go argue with himself.

It appears you did not read the post I made on 12 April 2008 22:26. I said, “The internet can bring out the worst in people, I am an example of that.†and “As for alienating others on this forum, I’m sure I have done this.â€

Ranb

Famous quote:

"C-c-can't we all just get along?"

quote:

Originally posted by ranb40:

The internet can bring out the worst in people, I am an example of that...

As for alienating others on this forum, I’m sure I have done this...

Ranb

You hit the nail on the head, pal.

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by ranb40:

The internet can bring out the worst in people, I am an example of that...

As for alienating others on this forum, I’m sure I have done this...

Ranb


You hit the nail on the head, pal.

You'd be suprised how quickly the major of the posters on this forum forget and move on.

308 sako, I was aware of the Trust route. As I am planning on creating a couple of these I may well go this route rather than a Chapter S corp. Having said that there are many different types of trusts and I am not sure whether all of them have this capability (owning a suppressor). Anyone know? I expect to create a couple of RLTs and a Remainder Trust (at least!)
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by ranb40:...I am sick of dealing with personalities like his.

Ranb

?!?! duane has always been nice and polite. why would you be sick of that? many people on this forum - myself included - have been much less pleasant that duane.

quote:

Originally posted by ranb40:
[...if I showed up at any gun shop and was given the attitude that Wiebe displayed, then they would never get my business again.

Ranb

bullshit. if you walked out of every gun shop where somebody said something mistaken, you would be out of gunshops a looong time ago.

I spoke to Mr. Wiebe directly today. He seems to be a very laid back kind of guy who does not let stuff like this online argument bother him. He has much thicker skin than I do. For that I admire him as I need to become more even tempered myself.

Ranb

quote:

Originally posted by ranb40:
I spoke to Mr. Wiebe directly today. He seems to be a very laid back kind of guy who does not let stuff like this online argument bother him. He has much thicker skin than I do. For that I admire him as I need to become more even tempered myself.

Ranb

WOW! Maybe there is hope for me too

Terry