Updated 16th June 2011 - Please see latest post & give me your comments.

I have a 1910 model Mannlicher Schoenauer take down rifle with flip up peep sight on tang & trapdoor but plate with 5 piece cleaning rod.




The metal of the rifle is very tidy & the bore is mint. the stock is a replacement done by a village carpenter in India.

Where can I get a replacement stock for it? It does not have any action screw holes in the wood. The rear of the action hooks under the tang peep sight assembly and the front of the action locks into the front trigger guard & magazine with a latch. There is also a front barrel band with a cross pin.

I would appreciate any help in getting a new stock for this rifle as it would be a great hunter in 9.5X57 MS.

I have access to 2 different machinists with CNC machines who might be able to carve the blank out using my 1903 MS sporter as a sample. Is that a good way to do it?

Looks like a job for a stockmaker. There must be someone down there who could make one from a blank for you?

I would contact Mike Kokolus. He has a stock duplicating service here in PA. He may have a pattern stock for your rifle. Without a pattern, it's a custom stock from a blank. Don't know how difficult/expensive it would be to get a piece of wood from the US to NZ


http://www.gunstockduplicating.com/

I called Mike Kokolus about a Greek Mann. He didn't have one.

Great American Gunstocks shows one in black walnut full length style.

www.gunstocks.com

I have dealt with GASC before & bought the 1903 MS stock which has the action screw holes. The takedown model does not have any action screw holes!

We do have a couple of stock makers with credible reputation. One is ex Purdys from the 1960s & costs the same! One has a stock duplicating machine but not the specific pattern. I think I'll go down the CNC track with my friend...

Any other suggestions?

Thanks for the comments so far. It is certainly a help in making a final decision.

If you fail to find a replacement you could use your stock as a pattern for someone with a duplicator. It appears to follow traditional lines on the exterior. You would need to epoxy bed the action and barrel to fill all voids in the in-letting. The outside would need shaped to taste, all voids filled, and brought even with the metal.

quote:

Originally posted by Bobster:
If you fail to find a replacement you could use your stock as a pattern for someone with a duplicator. It appears to follow traditional lines on the exterior. You would need to epoxy bed the action and barrel to fill all voids in the in-letting. The outside would need shaped to taste, all voids filled, and brought even with the metal.

Thanks Bob. That is very helpful as it confirms one option I have thought of - to bed the stock including the tang peep & but plate with trap door & the barrel band with cross bolt. Then I could send it to the US for duplicating. The other option is to just have it copied by CNC machine here using the other MS sporter stock's outer profile & this one's bedded insides. I have a friend who's business has two 5-point CNC machines (did I get that right?) which have a tool head that can turn around & do the action parts very accurately & smoothly I am told.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
I have dealt with GASC before & bought the 1903 MS stock which has the action screw holes. The takedown model does not have any action screw holes!

I wonder if you could order the stock without the holes.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
I have dealt with GASC before & bought the 1903 MS stock which has the action screw holes. The takedown model does not have any action screw holes!

I wonder if you could order the stock without the holes.

Or, plug the holes with closely matching wood plugs made from cross grain stock rather than end grain.

I had an M1910 original in the take down stock. The inletting is pretty copmplicated and in places the stock is not very thick.

The original stock pattern seems designed to make the 9.5x56/57 MS (aka 375 2&1/2" NE) cartridge recoil feel like a 500 jeffery.

If you are not too hung up on period looks I would recomed that you put the internal bedding pattern into a much more "shootable" style stock that fits your dimensions. At the very least decrease the drop and fatten up the butt while you give it at least 3/16" cast off and an equal amount of toe out. Then it will fit you like a fine shotgun.

quote:

Originally posted by lawndart:
I had an M1910 original in the take down stock. The inletting is pretty copmplicated and in places the stock is not very thick.

The original stock pattern seems designed to make the 9.5x56/57 MS (aka 375 2&1/2" NE) cartridge recoil feel like a 500 jeffery.

If you are not too hung up on period looks I would recomed that you put the internal bedding pattern into a much more "shootable" style stock that fits your dimensions. At the very least decrease the drop and fatten up the butt while you give it at least 3/16" cast off and an equal amount of toe out. Then it will fit you like a fine shotgun.

Thank you sir! Once again confirming some critical issues. yes the current stock does make the rifle a bit lively but not too bad. If I built it like a classic stock & put a Decelarator pad on, it would be a real honey to hunt with.

Bertram brass is a lot better for this cartridge lately. The new Kynoch ammunition is the berries.

If you get a copy of Graem Wrights Shooting the English Double Rifle, there is some good information about the 9.5x56/57 Mannlicher Schoenauer/2 1/2" .375 NE cartridge. In its day it killed a lot of African game with full patched bullets.

Due to lack of $$, I used the hornady 275 grain round nosed bullet. The secret to penetration (say, with the Woodleigh solid) is that very long barrel. 26" to 28" gives optimal velocity, and a nice long sight radius.

You will want to have the sights adjusted. Modern loads will have the bullet hitting well high of where the sights were originally set.

My rifle had a Silvers recoil pad placed over the horrible curved butt plate in the 1930s. It was rotted. I didn't want to saw the end of the stock to the correct, flat pitch, so I ground three spacers so that there was eventually a flat butt for attaching a modern Silvers pad from Galazans/Connecticut Shotguns.

When you get your barreled action set up in a stock with the cast off and toe out (PLEASE do that), you can have a red Silver's pad or red decelerator. If it is still unpleasant, try a limb saver.

The last touch, of course will be a nice rust blue. These rifles feed so smoothly, and look so classic; you will enjoy it in the family for several lifetimes.

As far as collector value, well that is a moot point now. Remember, back in the "golden era" of magazine rifles the shooters had no idea things were "golden". The English and Continentals both never hesitated to take planes, saws and chisels to stocks to get them to fit correctly.

Finally, don't worry about a scope. That silver bead does just fine.

Enjoy

Nakihunter

Contact the Stockdokter in Raglan. He is reputedly the best in the North Island. Find his details in a hunting mag locally

Thanks Muzza. I spoke to him but he does not have a pattern though he has a duplicator. But the big issue is that he prefers to work with his own blanks and not one of mine. I cannot afford $1300 for a stock when the rifle with a new stock will be worth about $1800 to $2000.

Thanks again lawndart - very useful points. I can see that you really love these old MS rifles. I just drool over them all the time. Yes, rust blue of course! Since we cannot get Pilkingtons here, I have made up a solution of Nitric & Sulphuric acids with de-greased steel wool. I am now polishing my old 22 Remington 512 rifle as my first rust blue project. I guess I should be ready to do my MS in a year or two, after I have tried it on a few lesser guns.

I've had four model 1910's, 2 were take-down rifles and 2 were carbines. One of the take-down rifles had been restocked, and it was the only one that didn't have a crack in it.

The original toothpick stocks were designed for the 1903, and didn't hold up well to the recoil of the 9,5x56.

The problem with the takedown model is that it was designed to disassembled only when taking the month long boat trip to Africa. It was not designed to have a repeatable zero. However, people seemed to break them down way too often, resulting in worn areas and accuracy loss.

I would use a post 1924 pattern for the new stock. It will have more wood than the earlier models. I wouldn't worry too much on precise inletting, just bed everything, from peep sight to crosspin.

Thanks Kurt, that was brilliant. I now have a pretty good idea what I will do.....

[LIST]

Epoxy bed the current rough stock from tang to cross pin

Get it CNC programmed for shape & inletting with extra wood in wrist, around mag, fore-end etc - more like a classic rifle rather than the original slim MS stock - with cast on, comb, drop at heel etc. Try it on a block of pine as a trial. Fine tune & reprogram CNC

Get a nice dense walnut blank & do the real stock

Epoxy bed tang, recoil lug & cross pin

Rust blue rifle & Oil finish stock

Add Decelerator red pad

Go hunting.....

"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick."

Thank also to Kurt C.

I only took mine down once, to see how it was done. Mine must have been a closet queen - no cracks at all. Also the inleting was still extremely good after 85 years.

Maybe use full patch, FMJ bullets on everything.

Naki,

Send me your address. I will mail you a few different plan sets for a rust blu cabinet if you need to make one. I may be able to send you a 1/4 liter of Pilkington's or Gun Godess bluing solution via slow boat.

At last I am determined to take up this project. I would appreciate your comments and input. I am looking at walnut blanks now. I have narrowed my current choice to 4 blanks.

This one is a real bargain at $150



Same tree higher grade $275 - the stock on the far right in both pictures





These two are from a different tree - $250 each




I am also awaiting a few more photos before I send the money for the wood.

I will be epoxy bedding the rifle to the old stock and getting the CNC programing done soon.

There is so much knowledge and expertise on this site & I would really appreciate your input.

Walnut blank arrived..I just love it. It is a lot darker than the photos indicate. Cost me $260 shipped. Some of the other options were not really available....but I am very happy with the heavy, dense wood.





I have never done a pattern for a stock before and am taking it very slow....and patient...

I would appreciate any comments.

Very nice blank there Naki, best of luck with your project.

I've just started work on my Model 1952 and a stock refinish will be on the cards as well.

Cheers
H

Naki,

this sounds like a very interesting project. I wish you luck!

regards,

Rich

PS: I about to embark on a similar one with a 1909 Haenel Sporting Rifle built on a commercial version GEWEHR 1888 military rifle.

This is very interesting. I have an 03 in the works. good luck

rich

Thanks guys. i really appreciate your input.

I have been thinking and slowly planning the stock work. Here are some photos. I have made a general rough pattern out of 10 mm particle compressed board & then made a cut out. This will still give me a minimum 10mm clearance. I will not take a saw to the blank until I get all this checked out by a friend who is a joiner.






I have compared the blank with my 1903 which I did a few years ago.



I would appreciate your comments.

With a lot of hesitation and caution I am starting very slowly...and with a lot of patience.

To make a pattern out of the old stock, I decided to epoxy bed the most tricky bit first - the tang flip up peep sight. This is a very critical part of the stock layout & inletting. the rear screw of the trigger guard threads into this peep sight assembly. The rear tang end of the barrelled action hooks under the peep sight.

The part has a lot of small gaps and sub-assemblies that ate really tricky to bed. Any mistake & I would have to cut and drill out the part from the wood. So I removed the spring from the bottom & bedded only the front & the back first. Now that the most tricky part is done, I will do the sides. here are some pictures of the part.





BTW does anyone have photos of a similar rifle with the peep sights. I think i am missing a part that moves up & down on the dove tail in the peep. I would like to see what it should look like& probably have one made as a replacement.

Very slow progress.....

I have now been thinking of using Alkanet root to stain the wood. Will it infuse in Truoil or will I need to do it the traditional way with Linseed oil?

Will truoil "take" as a top coat to a stock that has already been treated with Linseed oil?

Check with the Mannlicher Collectors Association for other pictures of rifles with your sight arrangements.

Read through the appropriate parts of the Brownells catalog, or research posts on Accurate Reloading for information on the final finish. In the interim, get back to cutting on the wood and forget about final finish until you are finally there.

Actually, that's not a peep sight. It doesn't adjust for a reason. It is a diopter (I believe is the proper term) which has a very tiny hole, and should be perfectly aligned with the actual sight when flipped up. The purpose is to produce a sharper image of the rear sight and aid in sighting for precision at longer ranges. The actual sighting is always done with the barrel mounted sight. I had one on a 9.5, and it worked well. It works like a pinhole camera lens. The rear sight should be marked for 100, and have a flip up leaf for 200. The diopter should have a circular part (like a peep) which rotates 180 degrees and is marked at 100 and 200. On mine, they were aligned so perfectly that if both were not set the same, you couldn't align the sights because the diopter hole was so tiny. Try it and see if this isn't true.

Art S, thanks for that great piece of info. So my rear flip up is missing a part that should slide into the dove tail. Anyone have any ideas on sourcing this part?

I used to interact with the Mannlicher collector's association but they have gone very quiet and the website was not being maintained properly and I was getting too many firewall alerts from there.... Pitty, as I really liked that site & the people there.

No, there is no sliding part. I can't tell from your pictures, but it looks like they are all the. The piece that moves is a round disc in what you are calling the peep. It simply rotates 180 degrees and has two holes in it, one higher than the other when rotated into position. I don't remember exactly, but there were faint 100 and 200 markings on it somewhere. You simply rotated the correct hole upward when using it.

It could be possible that yours was an earlier model than the one on the 9.5, but it sure looks the same.

Yes the rotating disc with 2 holes is missing. Do you have a any photos of this arrangement? I saw one in H&H New York and they allowed me to photograph the rifle, and even that one had no disc!

Sorry, I don't have one. I looked around on the web before the last post and couldn't find one. Best bet would be to try the Mann aasociation. You might aos contact people who list one for sale on the web and see if they could take one and forward.

Hi there Nakihunter,

A friend of mine here in India sent me the link to your thread and just had to quickly sign up with AR and write to you.

I have recently inherited a 1910 and am in the process of restoring it myself. luckily its still sporting its original stock. I also have the complete peep sight with the part that yours is missing.

I am unable to post pictures on this thread, so if you can just drop me an email on saif_attari@yahoo.com I would be more than happy to send you some pictures of both the stock and the peep sight...

saif

>>>The unfortunate reality is that hunting is closely realted to gun ownership. There are a lot of wacco gun owners and this tends to tarnish the image of hunters as well. Just look at the ARPF and some of the waccos there - no real interst in hunting but a lot of extreme political views and hateful behaviour. To the ignorant Greenies, a quick glance at the ARPF will convince them that the rest of the hunting fraternity are all waccos. Many of the other hunting sites are even worse!<<<

Thanks Naki

SR 4759 - what is your point?

Are you intersted in participating in this project discussion or are you trying to sabotage it? You are totally out of line hijacking this thread and taking it off topic.

Get a life!

Naki hunter,
I have used old stocks to make patterns on many ocassions..I just did one on a Enfield Rem. mod. 30-S, actually I completely glassed the action and reshaped the stock and refinished it and am shooting it now, and its a super accurate 404 Jefferys, and a great working rifle as is..

I will at some point in the near future add a English type cheep piece, a mound for a rear swivel by using wood and glass, then ship it off to my man with the duplicator. and have him turn this stock with a super piece of Russian Circasion from old world walnut..

Sooo, all you gotta do is glass bed your old stock properly and I emphasis properly, then it's a good idea(but perhaps not totally necessary) to test fire it to check the bedding and if its shooting good then ship it off and get your new stock, then its just a matter of inletting,shaping, and finish..

Good luck, sounds like your on the road to a beautiful little rifle and one that is worth restoration. Restoration is always a fun project.

Thanks to everyone for your comments and encouragement.

I have been slowly working on bedding the stock. I was worried that I might get the fiddly bits bedded into the wood and not be able to pull it out. So I did them in small parts and very carefully - doing it a second time to get the details. I started with the tang sight assembply & then the trigger guard with the screw into the tang sight. I did both twice. Then I thought long and hard about the action and magazine which are so complicated in this rifle. Finally I remembered a basic trick I laearned when I first bedded rifles. I took some plastecine (modelling clay) and filled all the fiddly corners with this so that the bedding compund would not get in there and lock the action to the stock. I also found some brass filings I had for years and mixed it with the Marine expoxy 50-50 to get the volume up. Again I did this twice and got a reasonable fit. I can grind the excess off and the brass filings shows where I had to grind it off.

The whole job looks very scruffy mostly because of the brass filings in the mix. I was also using small quantities of the mix to avoid any problems of the wrong parts getting stuck. After the setting period I had to gring some of the bedding in front of the magazine so that the take down system can work in a big arc / radius. It is still sticky & wont come off unless I remove the tang / trigger guard screw. So i will grind some more off soon. I tried 5 rounds in the maganzine & worked the bolt. All that was smooth. But the mag release button did not dum the ammo out like it should. So I think i need to remove some bedding mix from the inside of the mag area. Not a lot need to be removed as the mag is working fine.

Now that I have done the trickiest parts, I now need to do the barrel channel which is easy. The action area may need another round to tidy it up. What do you think? I would appreciate all comments. i want to get this done right.

Here are some rifles that i have got pics of to use for my project

Ok .... I have been unhappy with the standard of the bedding job above but I confident that I can now avoid getting the rifle stuck in the stock permanently.

So I decided to rebed the rifle with a new lot of marine epoxy filler.



The Arkanet root also arrived. I got it from a lady who makes fragrant soap, oils etc. She imported it from Pakistan and I got about 150 gms for $18 shipped.

I have started infusing it in Boiled Linseed oil, Mineral spirits and Isopopile alcohol



Next week I am meeting with this local "legend" who will help me with digial scanning and CNC machining the stock.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:

I guess there is no turning back now.


I see this project coming together nicely.