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Originally posted by srtrax:
Are the set backs caused by bubba and his reloading friends and gunsmith or is there a real reason for the set backs?

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If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck and waddles like a duck and its anus is waterproof then you can call it an eagle all you want but it's still a duck.

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Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
1909' are shit by some "experts" and 1909's' are the epitome of the action makers art by others. Take your choice.
...
I have an intrerest in arriving at the truth without all the bullshit attached.

quote:

Originally posted by CAS II:
As an outsider looking on with much interest it seems that I have two alternatives:

1) Do not re-heat treat the action and run the risk of lug setback as a result of an obstruction or overload.

2) Re-heat treat the action and run the risk of having the action come apart as a result of an obstruction or overload.

Perhaps that is an overly simplistic view of things, but I we boil down the arguments I seem to be left with these two alternatives.

Given the fact that I get one set of eyes, and one face (not that mine is any sort of national treasure), I'll opt running the risk of ruining an action before I run the risk of ruining my face.

quote:

Originally posted by CAS II:
As an outsider looking on with much interest it seems that I have two alternatives:

1) Do not re-heat treat the action and run the risk of lug setback as a result of an obstruction or overload.

2) Re-heat treat the action and run the risk of having the action come apart as a result of an obstruction or overload.

Perhaps that is an overly simplistic view of things, but I we boil down the arguments I seem to be left with these two alternatives.

Given the fact that I get one set of eyes, and one face (not that mine is any sort of national treasure), I'll opt running the risk of ruining an action before I run the risk of ruining my face.

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Do you think that with the differentiated heat treatment/case hardening done to a 1909 Argentine contract action receiver and bolt coupled with the different steel assays of said bolt and receiver that the Mauser company knew what it was doing when it produced the action with those specifications?

Meaning, was the bolt supposed to "set back" into the receiver lug recess and maybe contact the third receiver lug under an extreme pressure overload? Design safety feature?

The real question becomes what is the tolerance set by the factory for the plastic deformation of the receiver lug recesses during an extreme overload?

If the beginning of lug recess deformation is supposed to occur at 65,000 psi, then of course you will see 1909 Argentine set back with modern loads. If it is say 80,000 psi (at or above a proof load) as the factory threshold of excessive overload, then you are loading your ammunition too hot, and the action is doing what it was supposed to do, set back and save you.

Do you want to take the chance in re-casing that receiver too deeply, and potentially removing the factory safety feature without knowing the factory design specifications for the case depth and pressure deformation threshold? I don't.

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Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
All this back-&-forth kinda reminds me of 'discussions' I've had with My Bride. She would like to be able to wear loose clothing and short hair but she always wants to know "Does this look good?"

Well, I respond, it depends upon whether you want men to like it or women to like it, 'cause you can't have both. IOW (I ask her) are you trying to get male admiration & attention (harvest your big game efficiently) or look non-threateningly acceptable to your girl friends (folks you hunt with)? (Think about it for a moment.....peer pressure.....)

Why not take all that extra money you're paying for altering/weakening your 98 and just buy a proper long action? I guarantee you that a Magnum Mauser will carry about five times the braggin' rights of ANY altered 98! And it's fairly easy for a decent smith to take 2 98s and make a Kurz and a Magnum by a little bench work.

AAMOF for about the same money you could have a Rem 700 altered to controlled feed with a welded bolt handle and better bottom metal, resulting in a rifle that would end up about twice as strong and twice as long-lasting as ANY Mauser!

But, the SCI guys wouldn't like it...
Regards, Joe

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Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by CAS II:
As an outsider looking on with much interest it seems that I have two alternatives:

1) Do not re-heat treat the action and run the risk of lug setback as a result of an obstruction or overload.

2) Re-heat treat the action and run the risk of having the action come apart as a result of an obstruction or overload.

Perhaps that is an overly simplistic view of things, but I we boil down the arguments I seem to be left with these two alternatives.

Given the fact that I get one set of eyes, and one face (not that mine is any sort of national treasure), I'll opt running the risk of ruining an action before I run the risk of ruining my face.

Incorrect
HT and risk it warping and loosing the action .

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Originally posted by jeffeosso:

Jesus, Duane, PICTURES aren't anecdotal ...

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so BULLOCKS that big bores have more bolt thrust .. its MATH.. only larger casehead have larger thrust..

if one takes a 7STW, at 65Kspi and compares to a 470 capstick, and 62,500, the capstick has LESS bolt thrust..

a 7stw at 65 vs a 708 at 65, the 7stw has MORE bolt thrust.. can't escape math.

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Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
Send them to me: PM me for my Fed Ex account number. I want Pacmet to see if they can come up with any answers

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It's like saying a guy with big feet weighs more than a guy with small feet.

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Originally posted by ramrod340:

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It's like saying a guy with big feet weighs more than a guy with small feet.

Take a skinny woman in high heels and a big guy with big feel and see who will leave marks in a soft floor. High heels wins every time. Less weight more pressure per square inch.

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Originally posted by montea6b:

I'm not following this logic. The force acting against the bolt face is equal and opposite to the force propelling the bullet down the barrel. All else being equal, a smaller casehead will exert the same force in a more concentrated area than a larger casehead, which will spread it out.

But the force is the same.

It's like saying a 200 lb man with big feet weighs more than a 200 lb man with small feet.

If the contact surface area of the lugs remains constant, there should be no different in the amount of force exerted to induce setback.

What am I missing here?

quote:

Originally posted by montea6b:

quote:

so BULLOCKS that big bores have more bolt thrust .. its MATH.. only larger casehead have larger thrust..

if one takes a 7STW, at 65Kspi and compares to a 470 capstick, and 62,500, the capstick has LESS bolt thrust..

a 7stw at 65 vs a 708 at 65, the 7stw has MORE bolt thrust.. can't escape math.

I'm not following this logic. The force acting against the bolt face is equal and opposite to the force propelling the bullet down the barrel. All else being equal, a smaller casehead will exert the same force in a more concentrated area than a larger casehead, which will spread it out.

But the force is the same.

It's like saying a 200 lb man with big feet weighs more than a 200 lb man with small feet.

If the contact surface area of the lugs remains constant, there should be no different in the amount of force exerted to induce setback.

What am I missing here?

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Originally posted by gunmaker:
Pressure X area = bolt thrust.
less area= less thrust

Think about it like a hydraulic cylinder. 3" cyl will push a LOT harder than a 1" when using the same pressure.

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Originally posted by JBrown:

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Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
Why not take all that extra money you're paying for altering/weakening your 98 and just buy a proper long action? I guarantee you that a Magnum Mauser will carry about five times the braggin' rights of ANY altered 98! And it's fairly easy for a decent smith to take 2 98s and make a Kurz and a Magnum by a little bench work.

Regards, Joe

I asked this question regarding splicing two actions together a while back and several well known smiths gave me the impression that it was akin to black magic.

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Originally posted by Howard:
or as a buddy stated in an email

These guys using rams/cylinders/pistons as examples are forgetting the fact that a hydraulic or pneumatic ram doesn't have walls that expand when the pressure is applied...and the valve used to activate the ram is designed to keep the flow/pressure of air/fluid much more constant during it's stroke than burning gun powder could ever do.

Using the simple formula "diameter x force" is not entirely accurate for a rifle having an expandable housing for that pressure.

What they also fail to calculate for is the fact that a rifle cartridge does not produce a constant pressure when fired. You may have an advertised pressure of 50,000 psi but that pressure will spike up and down as the powder burns and the moving bullet creates an ever enlarging container that the expanding gas is constantly trying to fill.

This is definitely one of those areas where a "little bit of knowledge" can be very dangerous.

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Originally posted by Jim Kobe:
Who was the nitwit who said Pie R Suare.

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Originally posted by montea6b:

So, everyone get the image of a 200lb woman in spike heels out of your heads! (sorry to bring that up)


Cheers.