I have no dog in this fight but statistically posting one picture of an action with lug set back is evidence of . . . one action with lug set back. Without a larger sample size, it does not mean that much, to my simple mind, and it is impossible to extrapolate to a larger set and declare that it is empirical evidence of an fundamental metalurgy issue. But then again, I do not understand all the mysteries of twist and how folks can expound on that ad nausem for pages.

I've sunk a lot of money in custom rifles on vintage Mauser actions so the topic of setback in such actions is of interest to me. I can't deny that setback has occured in some actions but without knowing the particular circumstances, it's nigh impossible to draw any conclusions relevent to all Mauser actions.

I load some 270's on the warm side but otherwise I'm not a reloading hot rodder. Do I need to worry about the potential for setback in my rifles? Does heat treating an action ensure that I won't get setback no matter what the circumstances?

The fact that someone overloaded a case with a fast powder and got setback really doesn't mean much to me. The fact that the action remained in one piece and could be examined at all does mean something to me though.

I don't need an action to be foolproof, I just need to know the bounds of non-foolish behavior. Any help would be appreciated.

Westpac: It's pretty obvious that some stumblefuck drilled through half the lug seat...reducing contact by... what ....30%?


Proof positive that the 98 will hold up even to stupid, incompotent hacker "gunsmiths"...such assaholies should be prohibited from even owning a firearm. The main trouble is that his abomination might be passed on to some unknowing fool.

I tell you... back yard hackers are worse than horse traders. A horse trader will swear to God and five good men that this horse you are about to buy for your six year old is as gentle as a lamb....when in fact, he has killed four damn good cowboys.


Sorry...I have no use for this type of trailer trash!

Most entertaining use of the English language.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
Westpac: It's pretty obvious that some stumblefuck drilled through half the lug seat...reducing contact by... what ....30%?


Proof positive that the 98 will hold up even to stupid, incompotent hacker "gunsmiths"...such assaholies should be prohibited from even owning a firearm. The main trouble is that his abomination might be passed on to some unknowing fool.

I tell you... back yard hackers are worse than horse traders. A horse trader will swear to God and five good men that this horse you are about to buy for your six year old is as gentle as a lamb....when in fact, he has killed four damn good cowboys.


Sorry...I have no use for this type of trailer trash!

One of the more entertaining posts I have read in a while!

Look, guys, its 50-75 bucks to have it heat treated ...

the bad thing is, i can't stand the thought of heat treating .. with THIS exception ...

Could it be that the 1909 is a VERY popular subspecies of mauser, gets build by everyone (including trailertrash), has high pressure rounds in it, then is reloaded hot .. but since everyone knows a 1909, they point fingers at it?

in other words, is the 1909 a "victim" of its own popularity? Remember, them there gunwriters also poopooed the 358 winchester as being short ranged, hard kicking, and some what inaccurate, without adding the phrase "to me" in their writing.

Could be .. that's how urban myths get made .. though the myth has a grain (or 100) of truth to it.

"I'm gonna keep on doing the same thing in the same way 'cause I haven't hurt anybody yet and so it must be OK! All those other instances of problems were just somebody's pipe dreams and I don't believe all that data 'cause I haven't hurt myself yet!"

"Aw, I don't need no stinkin' fire insurance, I ain't never had a fire yet and so it won't never happen anyway!"

All joking aside, doesn't it seem curious that Mausers in general and 1909s in particular have the rep for lug setback? In almost 50 years of smithing, I've never even HEARD of setback in, for instance, a 1903 Springfield or 1917 Enfield, whereas in Mausers I've seen a fair percentage with setback, maybe as many as 10%.

Some Mausers in particular have a rep for softness and setback, among them are the Danzigs, Ambergs, Spandaus and 1909s. This rep is based upon people's actual experience with these actions over the years, not on any Rockwell test or armchair engineering. Sure, the rep is subjective and so therefore is suspect, but that rep came from SOMEWHERE!

To dismiss so much actual hands-on evidence in such a cavalier manner is pretty unrealistic IMO. I love Mausers, all of my bolt guns except 2 are Mausers of various persuasions, but I don't fool myself into thinking that they are strong actions. Safe, yes, among the very safest IMO. Strong, not usually. At least not until they're properly heat-treated.

Now, finding a good heat-treater might be a problem for some folks and I have no firm suggestions. Perhaps some of you can offer some names?
Regards, Joe

Thanks for your last post Duane, I thought that lug was drilled through, but saw no threads and kept my mouth shut.

I guess we should follow Frank De Haas recomendation of using German or Belgium made actions from 1930 to 1943 and not having to worry about issues. Sounds like good advice.

I always liked M1909's and have built lots of sensible guns on them, 220 Swift being probably the hottest, others 30-06 etc. I am not a 308(family) fan period and also don't like making them reliable feeders in mausers when they are cartridges better suited in the first place.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
Westpac: It's pretty obvious that some stumblefuck drilled through half the lug seat...reducing contact by... what ....30%?

That half a hole down the face of that lug, while it certainly has no business being there, does not reduce the area of contact very much since the left bolt lug straddles much of that area because of the ejector slot.

But I agree with you on the rest of your rant.

Keep spreading the word how soft and dangerous the 1909 is. Then I wont have to pay $300.00 for them, just maybe if we can get the word out they will drop in price and I'll pick them up all day long at $50.00 each!

quote:

Originally posted by Westpac:

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
Westpac: It's pretty obvious that some stumblefuck drilled through half the lug seat...reducing contact by... what ....30%?

That half a hole down the face of that lug, while it certainly has no business being there, does not reduce the area of contact very much since the left bolt lug straddles much of that area because of the ejector slot.

But I agree with you on the rest of your rant.

Westpac, it was the "otherwise mint" part of your commentary that might lead some folks to the wrong conclusion. Without knowing the full story behind the action, the gunsmithing and the rounds fired, it's impossible to make an informed decision about one rifle, much less a blanket conclusion about a wide range of actions.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
Westpac: It's pretty obvious that some stumblefuck drilled through half the lug seat...reducing contact by... what ....30%?


Proof positive that the 98 will hold up even to stupid, incompotent hacker "gunsmiths"...such assaholies should be prohibited from even owning a firearm. The main trouble is that his abomination might be passed on to some unknowing fool.

I tell you... back yard hackers are worse than horse traders. A horse trader will swear to God and five good men that this horse you are about to buy for your six year old is as gentle as a lamb....when in fact, he has killed four damn good cowboys.


Sorry...I have no use for this type of trailer trash!

And doesn't it look like the setback is only on one side of the lug (the left side in the photo)?

The lug looks like it was barely in contact on the right...

Perhaps Bubba who drilled the hole also put a ramp angle on the lug to facilitate easier/faster bolt closing?

By "mint" I mean the action was really clean, no outward signs of abuse, original finish. All the lettering was sharp and clean, an otherwise mint action. It was chambered for a standard 338 type magnum case, by who I don't know. The guy didn't have it too long because it wouldn't feed. The action hadn't been modified to feed a magnum case. The owner was a handloader, and a conservative handloader as I recall. Very meticulous. Don't know the number of rounds through the gun.


.

Ladies and Gentlemen:

Mr. Weibe and I were discussing this heat treating topic, and he suggested that I post one of my replies to his discussion on heat treating 1898 Mauser actions.

Here it is:

Dear Mr. Wiebe:

As a further note, Pete Grisel told me that he used to blow up 1898 Mausers in the basement of his shop in South Dakota. He placed an 8'x8' sheet behind the action when he was doing this.

When the original 1898 action would let go, there were no marks, tears or burns on the sheet which was hung right behind the rear of the action.

On the other hand, he had some come in that were "re-heat treated". They all blew up like bombs. Lots of holes in the sheet.

Here's what I have learned through this whole discussion going back 10 years:

1. The metallurgy in the 1898 receiver and bolt are different;
2. The bolt is usually 10-15 points harder than the receiver on the Rockwell "C" scale;
3. Since the actions were carburized, the Rockwell "C" scale numbers may be useless;
4. As you mentioned, there is no way to determine the hardness of the receiver lug face, nor for that matter the bolt lugs without destroying the action;
5. Mauserwerke practiced localized hardening in the high wear areas like the lug recesses and along the bottom of the tang where the military trigger rubs against it, and
6. In my opinion the differentiated metallurgy and hardness acted as a safety feature if the barrel became obstructed or the brass case let go, which often occurred in the 19th century (brass metallurgy in 1898 wasn't too great).

I have also spoken with a confidant of Jon Speed, the Mauser nut and scholar in Germany.

Mr. Speed sent me through his intermediary original proof testing of the contract rifles like the 1908 and 1909 Mausers manufactured before WW-I. If my memory serves me right, their proof loads were in the 70,000-80,000 psi range when converted from atmospheres.

Also, they proofed into the 90,000+ psi range when testing barrel strength, as they were having some steel assay problems with their barrel steel.

Lastly, Pete Grisel also told me that he has had set back Remington's and other modern actions brought into his shop over the years. In all cases just like an authentically set back Mauser, the cause was either a barrel obstruction or really excessively overloaded handloaded ammunition.

In my mind the Remingtons, Mausers etc. did what they were supposed to do, set back a bit under an overload, and thereby saved your facial makeup!

If you re-case them too deeply, then you have ruined the safety of the action, and are playing with a hand grenade at 2 inches from your face.

This is why I will never shoot a low number Springfield ever again. They are too hard, as are many of the pre-WW-II Winchester Model 70's.

By the way, supposedly the Mauser engineers before WW-I, came over to the US and taught the Springfield guys how not to burn their heats of steel which were causing the brittle original Springfield action problem.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

quote:

Now, finding a good heat-treater might be a problem for some folks and I have no firm suggestions. Perhaps some of you can offer some names?
Regards, Joe

Thomas Burgess (may he rest in peace) suggested PACMET to me.

http://www.pacmet.com/

quote:

Originally posted by srtrax:
Keep spreading the word how soft and dangerous the 1909 is. Then I wont have to pay $300.00 for them, just maybe if we can get the word out they will drop in price and I'll pick them up all day long at $50.00 each!

Those were the days weren't they.

I'm down to three, left to build on.

Never heat treated any of mine--was "taught" (never learned enough to equal him) by an old German who did not believe it would help and most likely hurt;
and a Father who was a Metallurgist who concurred with that opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:

Thomas Burgess (may he rest in peace) suggested PACMET to me.

http://www.pacmet.com/

I did use them on a couple of Enfields--good work.

IIRC,
i paid $65 for mine, about 15-20 yrs ago!. haven't done anything with it,yet. one stock to make and then it will be off to the lathe man.

I have a lotta respect for Pete Grisel, haven't spoken with him since our Trinidad days but have some interesting stories about him, witnessed by me. All good ones, I assure you! He was widely acknowledged by not only the instructors but also the students as being the best smith in his class of '66.

However without knowing the details of his re-heat-treatment, I consider his info to be just another one of those anecdotes that Duane referred to.

So far we have P.O.Ackley on one side and Pete Grisel on the other, IMO the rest of us really don't amount to a hill of beans because we don't have the experience or the expertise necessary for a creditable analysis.

But if re-heat-treatment is so bad then how come we see all those beautifully case-colored actions on those fine custom bolt guns? And what about all those old single shots? Why, according to some of the stories told here, you'd think that at least every week or 2 we'd be hearing about some yokel blowing up his prized re-heat-treated high wall or Borchardt!

If re-heat-treatment was so bad, you'd think that folks like Doug Turnbull, Don Menck and Classic Arms woulda been sued out of business long, long ago!

I realize that in some cases I'm preaching to the choir and in other cases I shouldn't confuse them with facts 'cause their minds are already made up, but I couldn't resist (G).
Regards, Joe

I would think cutting away the carburizing like "with a drill" would be like cutting a notch on the bottom of a truss.

You can see the soft underbelly is peened by the hard outer skin. This action was destined to the scrap heap at the instant the hole was drilled.

Now: just for giggles, I'd like to hear from other countries about their view on re heat treating.

I'll bet a big Mac this process is not worshipped like it is here in the colonies...let's see!

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
I would think cutting away the carburizing like "with a drill" would be like cutting a notch on the bottom of a truss.

I think you are way too fixated on that hole. Granted it don't look good, but I think a combination of a thin skin and heavy recoil did more to damage those lugs than anything that drill bit did.

The hole did put a break in the uniform consistant hardened Surface.

Never know, Mr drill and tap guy could of used his oxy acet torch there so he could do some "good drillin" too

I will add one technique that a good friend, who is a longtime gunsmith, has been doing it well and been in magazine articles, etc since the 1960's, does in regard to mausers. He takes a carbide scribe and sees how easy it is to scrtach the lugs. That is his build or scrap it protocol.

As far as reheat treating goes, I know another gunsmith, who will remain nameless, but is quite good, and well respected nationally, and he welds square bridges onto common mausers and does not reheat treat the actions. He told me he just doesn't let them get too hot. He has been doing this for many years, and has never had a gun fail.

Humm, let's see:

$250 1909A action
$100 Heat treatment & postage
$175 New bolt Handle welded on
$100 New Trigger
$175 Three position Safety
$ 75 Fitting safety and trigger to action
$100 Bottom metal work
$ 75 Blueing
$100 Drill, tapp, grind off hump, polish
$ 75 square, lapp, etc
$1,250 TOTAL for action ready to barrel, after waiting 6 - 12 months on the gunsmith

Alternatively:
Order new CZ 550 action from Brownells,
comes with single set, adjustable trigger,
comes with three position safety,
comes with excellent bottom metal,
comes with groved receiver for scope rings,
comes ready to install barrel,
comes already blued,
comes with forged & heat treated receiver,
comes by priority mail in about a week.

Price less than $500 including shipping

So, my question for those of you who know so much about re-heat treating - should I have the CZ 550 re-heat treated or not, to avoid potential set back?

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Humm, let's see:

$250 1909A action
$100 Heat treatment & postage
$175 New bolt Handle welded on
$100 New Trigger
$175 Three position Safety
$ 75 Fitting safety and trigger to action
$100 Bottom metal work
$ 75 Blueing
$100 Drill, tapp, grind off hump, polish
$ 75 square, lapp, etc
$1,250 TOTAL for action ready to barrel, after waiting 6 - 12 months on the gunsmith

Alternatively:
Order new CZ 550 action from Brownells,
comes with single set, adjustable trigger,
comes with three position safety,
comes with excellent bottom metal,
comes with groved receiver for scope rings,
comes ready to install barrel,
comes already blued,
comes with forged & heat treated receiver,
comes by priority mail in about a week.

Price less than $500 including shipping

So, my question for those of you who know so much about re-heat treating - should I have the CZ 550 re-heat treated or not, to avoid potential set back?

KB

Yea, but the 550 is ugly.

Interesting comparison, KB, very interesting for several reasons.

However, the CZ does not have a record of softness and lug setback, whereas the Mausers do.

I'll ask another interesting question here, for the ones of us who have seen a lot of actions disassembled.

Which actions have shown the most evidence of lug setback, percentage-wise, in your actual experience from actual observation?

I'll bet that lots of us have seen Mauser lug setback but I'd be VERY surprised to find that any one of us has actually seen lug setback in more than 1 or 2 other actions besides a Mauser. I'm only a part-time smith but have rebarreled many, many hundreds of rifles in the last 45 years with slightly more than half being bolt guns. I've personally encountered about a half-dozen Mausers with noticable lug setback during that time, but have never, repeat never, seen another bolt action with any apparent lug setback whatsoever.

Now, some of you will say that probably most of my rebarrels were Mausers and so it's logical that more of them would appear faulty. I agree to a certain extent, but out of the other 100 or more bolt guns that I've seen up-close-&-personal, you'd think that there'd be some other examples of lug setback.

Nope, not a one. How about you guys?
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Humm, let's see:

$250 1909A action
$100 Heat treatment & postage
$175 New bolt Handle welded on
$100 New Trigger
$175 Three position Safety
$ 75 Fitting safety and trigger to action
$100 Bottom metal work
$ 75 Blueing
$100 Drill, tapp, grind off hump, polish
$ 75 square, lapp, etc
$1,250 TOTAL for action ready to barrel, after waiting 6 - 12 months on the gunsmith

Alternatively:
Order new CZ 550 action from Brownells,
comes with single set, adjustable trigger,
comes with three position safety,
comes with excellent bottom metal,
comes with groved receiver for scope rings,
comes ready to install barrel,
comes already blued,
comes with forged & heat treated receiver,
comes by priority mail in about a week.

Price less than $500 including shipping
KB

I hope none of my clients read this. I'll be out of a job.

It's not my intent to put anyone out of a job, or criticize gunsmiths. Part of my point is that I would rather spend my money having my gunsmith worry about things such as proper barrel installation, stocks, bedding, sights, and other refinments, rather than heat treatment of the receiver, or significant modifications to the action to get it to work and/or feed. By using a modern action, many variables are removed from the overal project, and raises the probability of long term satisfaction, IMO.

A very conservative estimate of the actions I have studied and or had rifles made from by gunsmiths is well over 50, and of all those rifles and actions, the only ones that I have seen set back on were Argentine 1909s.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Humm, let's see:

$ 75 square, lapp, etc

KB

Wow
squared,
fully lapped,
and detailed out on the bolt receiver fit---

AND with
$ 75 Fitting safety and trigger to action
$100 Bottom metal work

I'M IN--
send me the address--

I'll quit doing it myself

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Humm, let's see:

$ 75 square, lapp, etc

KB

Wow
squared,
fully lapped,
and detailed out on the bolt receiver fit---

AND with
$ 75 Fitting safety and trigger to action
$100 Bottom metal work

I'M IN--
send me the address--

I'll quit doing it myself

I tried to estimate on the conservative side, and the point was not about each part of the estimate, but the bottom line, which I suppose could be $2,000, depending on the gunsmith and his prices, and the other variables.

KB

The best thing about the CZ550 is some of them can shoot around corners.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Humm, let's see:

$250 1909A action
$100 Heat treatment & postage
$175 New bolt Handle welded on
$100 New Trigger
$175 Three position Safety
$ 75 Fitting safety and trigger to action
$100 Bottom metal work
$ 75 Blueing
$100 Drill, tapp, grind off hump, polish
$ 75 square, lapp, etc
$1,250 TOTAL for action ready to barrel, after waiting 6 - 12 months on the gunsmith

Jim Kobe just sold three on the AR classified, surface ground, polished, drilled and tapped, new bolt handles, two position safeties, Timney triggers, Wisner straddle floor plates, inside the bow release, rear shaped, etc. for $625/each.

All this back-&-forth kinda reminds me of 'discussions' I've had with My Bride. She would like to be able to wear loose clothing and short hair but she always wants to know "Does this look good?"

Well, I respond, it depends upon whether you want men to like it or women to like it, 'cause you can't have both. IOW (I ask her) are you trying to get male admiration & attention (harvest your big game efficiently) or look non-threateningly acceptable to your girl friends (folks you hunt with)? (Think about it for a moment.....peer pressure.....)

Why not take all that extra money you're paying for altering/weakening your 98 and just buy a proper long action? I guarantee you that a Magnum Mauser will carry about five times the braggin' rights of ANY altered 98! And it's fairly easy for a decent smith to take 2 98s and make a Kurz and a Magnum by a little bench work.

AAMOF for about the same money you could have a Rem 700 altered to controlled feed with a welded bolt handle and better bottom metal, resulting in a rifle that would end up about twice as strong and twice as long-lasting as ANY Mauser!

But, the SCI guys wouldn't like it...
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by LesBrooks:


My question is has anyone seen a MK 10 action with set back? I believe that they are made of a very good alloy and very tuff. They are about like the Jap actions if you study the steel used in these action.

As an end of the year tip for one of my guides I had Steve Berg re- barrel his original MK X 375 with a new stainless barrel. Steve said the action had three of four thousanths setback but he was able to lap the lugs and the rifle is still killing bears 15 years later.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

Jim Kobe just sold three on the AR classified, surface ground, polished, drilled and tapped, new bolt handles, two position safeties, Timney triggers, Wisner straddle floor plates, inside the bow release, rear shaped, etc. for $625/each.

I know--
I found out tooo late

O.K. so far all we have are opinions and nothing in stone has come to bare. Wasnt the intent that Paul Mauser had in mind was for a casehardened outer shell and a mildly soft interior. I have read posts here several times that rockwell doesnt work well with the outer skin being casehardened and if so then what determines the proper way to find out the depth of hardness? I'm no guru on this metallurgy like I would like to be. I was under the impression that a hard shell and a soft core is actually what made this action (Mauser) safe. Drilling through this skin at the wrong places or even overlapping the lugs would certianly weaken the locking area of the action. This in my mind is the only area of concern is the lock up area , other than maybe wear points. So, I guess what I'm saying is I dont have the perfect answer,and sound like we are all over the place on this subject and from what I've read in the past an answer still will not have been hashed out. Has anybody that has had lug setback, sectioned the action and had it analized on the intior core (not the outside) and come up with any numbers because there is where the hardness would count. Are the set backs caused by bubba and his reloading friends and gunsmith or is there a real reason for the set backs? This kind of discussion has gone on before and I suspect no real answers will become of it again, but I think it is a valid point and it would be nice to have real world answers. It would be nice to here the veiw point of someone in the rehardening business to hear there take on the yeas and probbly wouldnt get any nas from them but some answers and FACTS would be nice to know! My own personal take on this is if smithed right and in calibers ment for such actions and a safe load the action should handle it just fine, you know when this firearm was issued to the man it was issued to, he had the most advanced arm in his hand at that time and I suspect he knew it would hold up and safe his life if he played his cards right.

I could be wrong, but last time I checked w/ Turnbull's folks, they do not CCH bolt actions, 98's or otherwise due to warpage, or at least that is what I was told by them. I have Turnbull do various jobs for me, and would certainly like to have an action given his treatment, but no deal.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
It's not my intent to put anyone out of a job, or criticize gunsmiths. Part of my point is that I would rather spend my money having my gunsmith worry about things such as proper barrel installation, stocks, bedding, sights, and other refinments, rather than heat treatment of the receiver, or significant modifications to the action to get it to work and/or feed. By using a modern action, many variables are removed from the overal project, and raises the probability of long term satisfaction, IMO.

A very conservative estimate of the actions I have studied and or had rifles made from by gunsmiths is well over 50, and of all those rifles and actions, the only ones that I have seen set back on were Argentine 1909s.

Wow: Sure wouldn't to be standing next to you in a thunderstorm. So...how many was that? Are they still in your possession?

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:

Wow: Sure wouldn't to be standing next to you in a thunderstorm. So...how many was that? Are they still in your possession?

Judging from what I'm reading regarding attitude, in your choice of words, I think maybe we have nothing to talk about.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Westpac:

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
I would think cutting away the carburizing like "with a drill" would be like cutting a notch on the bottom of a truss.

I think you are way too fixated on that hole.



Granted it don't look good, but I think a combination of a thin skin and heavy recoil did more to damage those lugs than anything that drill bit did.

Well...could be...ever see a sink hole? Think about it...the undisurbed material (rocks, dirt, etc) tends to "level itself out"...fill in the void and in turn displaces material far from the sink hole.

To be sure, recoil had a bunch to do with that upset, but my point is if the cavity had not existed , there would have been no place for metal trying to fill the void.

Can't help it! I have zero tolerance when if comes to a potential bomb held a few inches from a client's face...even my pretty face!