quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
Capoward: That's a Blackburn trigger and looks like botom metal by the same. Stands to reason he'd contour them to be compatible. But it looks (from the photo) that you might pay attention to the tip of the trigger...is it hitting the inside of the guard? Maybe the rear screw is wound up pretty tight

quote:

Originally posted by srtrax:
I appologize for the threadjack.

Duane what brand trigger did you use and did you have to modify the trigger to get it to fit so symmetrically to the trigger guard bow? Thanks.

Jim

Sorry guys, I slept last night. Duane just did the welding job on the bolt handle and I'm happy with it.
The bottom metal is Ted Blackburn's as is the trigger and it's a damn nice match. The trigger in the picture looks to be touching and bottoming out on the guard. Probably due to the angle of the picture. There's probably no more than .01 clearance with the rear guard screw snugged up. It works perfect, therefore I'm glad I spent a little extra money going the Blackburn route to get the results that I got.
With the Wiebe bolt handle Blackburn guard and trigger, my intergral octagon barrel it will turn out to be a nice project.

Thank you both for your responses.

quote:

Originally posted by jørgen:
Many years ago when i was young, naive and still belived that M98 was the only working action. I did a lot of forging of bolthandels more than 10.000 . most was unaltered military bolts, but quite some was previosly welded.
The only thing that was for sure was that basicaly none of the welded was worth shit, when it came to acceptable quality of the weld. Generaly you could se the problems after 5-10 seconds of heating(ther often was a uneven headspread). Nekst problem showed after the first 1 or 2 strokes from the forginghammer. From atempting fo forge more than 200 different previous welded handels, only 1 or 2 survived my forging attempt. This compared to more than 10.000 unaltered, where none failed.

jørgen

I always have a hard time believing the experience numbers you post. This newest one is my personal favorite.

So you only had 1 or 2 out of 200 survive? That would mean that 198 or 198 failed during forging. So my question: after did your first hundred and you found that 99% failed, why did you keep trying to forge them? Maybe you though you would get luck with the second hundred?


Oh and how many of those welded handles that you broke were TIG welded?

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by jørgen:
Many years ago when i was young, naive and still belived that M98 was the only working action. I did a lot of forging of bolthandels more than 10.000 . most was unaltered military bolts, but quite some was previosly welded.
The only thing that was for sure was that basicaly none of the welded was worth shit, when it came to acceptable quality of the weld. Generaly you could se the problems after 5-10 seconds of heating(ther often was a uneven headspread). Nekst problem showed after the first 1 or 2 strokes from the forginghammer. From atempting fo forge more than 200 different previous welded handels, only 1 or 2 survived my forging attempt. This compared to more than 10.000 unaltered, where none failed.

jørgen

I always have a hard time believing the experience numbers you post. This newest one is my personal favorite.

So you only had 1 or 2 out of 200 survive? That would mean that 198 or 198 failed during forging. So my question: after did your first hundred and you found that 99% failed, why did you keep trying to forge them? Maybe you though you would get luck with the second hundred?


Oh and how many of those welded handles that you broke were TIG welded?

Mr Jorgen is of a very persistant personality.
He can bang his head into a wall for many hours, just to prove it isn`t good, in the long run

quote:

Originally posted by Big Earl:
Despite learning to weld, and being certified in G1, G2, G4 and G7 TIG, I am lousy at it so I send my bolt handles to Dam Armstrong, about half a dozen a year to weld for me. I have seen my own work X-Rayed and it looks awful underneath the weld. Knowhow, but zero skill and less talent. I do machine the bolt handles down, sometimes quite a lot in the finish shaping and to be quite honest, I like the idea of a full pen weld since I am machining away a lot of the weld itself. I know it only takes a few extra minuets so why not do it? The last dozen barrels I chambered took over an hour set up time just too get dead nuts,” benchrest” quality despite having half of them who’s life will be spent shooting green label Remington ammo bought at wallyworld. With that mindset, why not spend the extra couple of minuets to get the best possible weld on something as important as the bolt handle?
I typically do not post pictures of my work on here, as Joe found out, it would get picked apart and I get enough of that abuse from the wife.
As for what is Kasenit? It’s magic! Saved my backside many times. It’s a “coating” that drives carbon into steel then is flaked off. In overall usefulness it’s right up there with duct tape and belt dressing.

Big Earl, you're a lucky man. Most don't get to see their results so clearly, and most won't admit any possibility of error on their weld that looks S-O-O-O good on the outside.

Many uninformed folks believe that TIG is magic and will always add strength rather than remove it, but the truth is that most professional welders still need help with it. For instance my area has many, MANY shipyard-type welders from the shipyards & fab shops at Pascagoula and Galveston and the Marathon-Letourneau drill rig yard at Vicksburg, we get many of our nuclear welders from these places.

Two of my friends, welding engineers at the Grand Gulf weld test shop, have made their careers and their reps by teaching these supposedly-already-expert TIGgers to do a proper TIG weld. They tell me that it usually takes 1-2 weeks (40-80 hrs) for a welder with 10 years' shipyard or drill-rig experience to learn to do a proper TIG weld that will pass NDE, and of course some never do learn it.

As you've found, with TIG it's child's play to get the outside looking quite good but the interior often causes problems for even the supposedly-expert. An X-ray is worth a few thousand words, but most smiths have never had their work X-rayed and so don't really have much of a real clue about their actual TIG expertise.

When you take a picture or put that coupon in the vise and bend it 'til it cracks, why, THEN you may get some kind of a clue!
Regards, Joe

It's a bolt handle you freaking moron! It ain't a fucking Nuclear Plant Homer!

......I always love a good solution for a problem that doesn't exist..........starting to sound like the government.........

quote:

It's a bolt handle you freaking moron! It ain't a fucking Nuclear Plant Homer!

Its seems there is more to it than how insecure a handle is attached to a bolt
.

After all this, I'd like to ask a question. We always hear about Remington rifles shedding their bolt handles spontaneously, but I have never heard of a single instance where a welded on bolt handle failed during the course of normal use.

Can someone point me to a single instance anywhere where the weld failed on a bolt handle during the course of normal use? If the issue was so critical as to warrant three pages of discourse, there must be at least one instance where it has happened.

Without it, it sure seems like Joe is arguing about how many Angels can dance on the head of a pin.

quote:

Originally posted by CAS II:
Without it, it sure seems like Joe is arguing about how many Angels can dance on the head of a pin.

I'm sure he'll have that answer too!

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

jørgen

I always have a hard time believing the experience numbers you post. This newest one is my personal favorite.

So you only had 1 or 2 out of 200 survive? That would mean that 198 or 198 failed during forging. So my question: after did your first hundred and you found that 99% failed, why did you keep trying to forge them? Maybe you though you would get luck with the second hundred?


Oh and how many of those welded handles that you broke were TIG welded?

Back in those dayes old mausers m96 and m98, generaly was looked at as a sourse for cheap barreled actions, and was rebulid in large numbers for rather cheap huntingrifles.
As far as i remember we payed less than 20$ for a nice m96 in good condition, during a period of 15years we rebuild about 14.000 of them . I personaly forged all the handles, and with a bit of practice i managed to forge about 45handles in 1 hour. Sanding and polishing lasted about 2-4min pr bolt, so it was actualy only a parttime job for about10-15 dayes pr year.
Basicaly it was only a job to mfg a decent sporting/hunting rifle, and nothing artistical as what the gurues her try to perform.
After the source for old Swedish and German mausers dried out we stopped this rebuilding, and began mfg of new huntingrifles. This also because the marked changed, and rifle customers wanted higher quality and way smoother actions. Basicaly we followed the same route as most of the remaining european mfgs.
Starting based on mauseractions, and gradualy increasing quality, ending up with in our opinion mutch better rifles.

According to the welded handles and forging. It was not because i deliberatly wanted to destroy them. But over the years now and then some welded poped up , and if they was not thrown away imediatly without waisting time on them, by accident they was put into the pile for forging, and as i said only a couple survived. I didnt spend mutch time trying to find out how they were welded. But i guess there was a little of everything.
Later for a period we had an employed who had numerous weldingcertificats, also for ofshorewelding. Several times he tried to convince me that it was possible to weld on a handle, if using tig and many types of miracle sticks. But he never managed to make a weld half as strong as a forging.
I personaly think that the major issue is Unknown Steel, combined with a casehardening, on some of the surfaces he had to weld on.

45 handles in 1 hour? That's 1 every 1.3 minutes. I find that hard to believe.

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:
45 handles in 1 hour? That's 1 every 1.3 minutes. I find that hard to believe.

Remember this was not a repair buisnes, it was pretty industrialised.

Loading bolt into jig 10sek
Heating with a 1500l oxy/acetylen torch 15sek
5-6 blows with a special shaped forginghammer 8sek
Opening wise and removing bolt 10 sek
Cooling jig into water while grabbing another bolt 20 sek using left hand for the cooling, and right hand for grabbing the next bolt.
then you have apx 20 seconds to sit and watch out the window watching the beautifull scenery

Wow, you have personally forged over 10,000 bolt handles and you have personally checkered over 20,000 stocks? When do you have time to sleep?

quote:

Originally posted by J_Zola:
The one piece bolt is an option on the Satterlee web site. Standard is the the dovetail/welded bolt.

Or it could be viewed another way;
The integral BH be the premium option, the welded/joined being the lesser/base grade "good-enuff" version....
I cant imagine why a customer who would place greater value & insist on features like integ.bridges,1pc.non-welded BM, integ.barrel,and some super bling walnut,
would then cheapn out on an welded BH!!!..
If smiths only did/offered what was adequate on an rifle, how much work, pride and vanity would they loose out on?

Mr.Harre, who builds custom rifles on his self manufactured M70 type action,
with integ boxBM and integ.BH [no mention of an welded option,if you wanted different shape BH,it was machined that way from the block].
...and also offered options of; integ.scope rings[machined to your prefered height],integ. top/bottom straps, and integ.action face plate on takedowns.
..along with C-ring,proper gas shielded 3.pos safety, needle roller bearing trigger.
He also manufactured his own high precision accesories like; QD rings,grip caps,butt plates,etc.

quote:

Originally posted by CAS II:
Wow, you have personally forged over 10,000 bolt handles and you have personally checkered over 20,000 stocks? When do you have time to sleep?

The forging and sanding of the 10.000 bolts is apx 833hrs
the checkering of the stocks is apx 6.000hrs = 3 years.
Have ben in the buisness for 30 years, so i had plenty of time to sleep

quote:

Originally posted by jørgen:

quote:

Originally posted by CAS II:
Wow, you have personally forged over 10,000 bolt handles and you have personally checkered over 20,000 stocks? When do you have time to sleep?

The forging and sanding of the 10.000 bolts is apx 833hrs
the checkering of the stocks is apx 6.000hrs = 3 years.
Have ben in the buisness for 30 years, so i had plenty of time to sleep

1.3 minutes to forge a bolt handle and 18 minutes to checker a stock? Must have been FINE quality work. No wonder you had time to sleep.

quote:

Originally posted by Westpac:
It's a bolt handle you freaking moron! It ain't a fucking Nuclear Plant Homer!

quote:

Originally posted by CAS II:

quote:

Originally posted by jørgen:

quote:

Originally posted by CAS II:
Wow, you have personally forged over 10,000 bolt handles and you have personally checkered over 20,000 stocks? When do you have time to sleep?

The forging and sanding of the 10.000 bolts is apx 833hrs
the checkering of the stocks is apx 6.000hrs = 3 years.
Have ben in the buisness for 30 years, so i had plenty of time to sleep

1.3 minutes to forge a bolt handle and 18 minutes to checker a stock? Must have been FINE quality work. No wonder you had time to sleep.

Sorry, jA,rgen, but I think it's time to run up the flag.

quote:

It's a bolt handle you freaking moron! It ain't a fucking Nuclear Plant Homer!

I cant recall the need for the donning an G-suite to go hunting,
but often weve heard how certain companies manufacture their scope rings,actions,etc to aerospace tolerances.
IIRC,WFHein, instead of reaching stratospheric success at warp speed,hardly got off the ground, then crashed and burned....
The domestic rifle industry generally has more in common with sandbags & hot air balloning, than the latest aerotechnology jets.

There was a post asking if anyone had ever heard of a welded bolt failing. Dunlap mentions two instances of apparently perfect welds of bolt handles failing (pp 106, "Gunsmithing"). He stresses the necessity of full penetration of the weld. So, yes, visually good welds can fail.

Jerry Liles

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
The book was written 60 years ago when gas welding was the only act in town...
But according to you, Duane, your father was doing shipyard welding with SMAW (stick) long before that....

With TIG you can easily attain enough killiwiggles to go clear thru a 1/2" plate...at least with my Miller Dialarc you can.
What's a killiwiggle? And penetration does not equal or even indicate a good weld, it only indicates high amperage.

JHC: how many times do I have to respond to this bullshit...I never said 100 pen was NOT desireable..I said honestly that I "do not know"
I suggest you have one X-rayed and then you'll know for sure.

Jerry: this "quote" is simply anecdotal and not subject to proof..it's just a few words on page 106...doesn't mean a damn thing
Dunlap's book has been the smith's bible ever since it was written, even more so than Howe and Vickery. Methinks thou doth protest a little too much, it's kinda hard to refute Dunlap in a convincing manner...

Regards, Joe

It pains me to see you upset, Duane.

J.D. Steele isn't qualified to comment on the quality of your work.

The man plays in the minor leagues, and it's an internet illusion that gives him a voice.

He's made 800 some posts in a mere year and two months.

You've made about 1500 posts in six years, every one a valuable contribution to the forum.

Didn't Shakespeare have something to say about guys like JD?

"Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing"?

Let it go, Duane.

It's not worth your time.

flaco

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
The book was written 60 years ago when gas welding was the only act in town...
But according to you, Duane, your father was doing shipyard welding with SMAW (stick) long before that....

With TIG you can easily attain enough killiwiggles to go clear thru a 1/2" plate...at least with my Miller Dialarc you can.
What's a killiwiggle? And penetration does not equal or even indicate a good weld, it only indicates high amperage.

JHC: how many times do I have to respond to this bullshit...I never said 100 pen was NOT desireable..I said honestly that I "do not know"
I suggest you have one X-rayed and then you'll know for sure.

Jerry: this "quote" is simply anecdotal and not subject to proof..it's just a few words on page 106...doesn't mean a damn thing
Dunlap's book has been the smith's bible ever since it was written, even more so than Howe and Vickery. Methinks thou doth protest a little too much, it's kinda hard to refute Dunlap in a convincing manner...

Regards, Joe

Joe,
The 416 is mine that Duane has pictured. After a dozen or so brown bears in the puckerbush, I'll let you know if the bolt handle fell off or not. I'm guessing not and willing to bet my life on the same, if only obviously... This will also be my work gun as someone who lives in the toothy clawed kitchens of bears when they are awake and asleep and warrants dependability in all equipment, at all times. I've faith in the best of the best, whether someone in deep south does or not, matters to me not in the least...

quote:

Originally posted by flaco:
It pains me to see you upset, Duane.

J.D. Steele isn't qualified to comment on the quality of your work.

The man plays in the minor leagues, and it's an internet illusion that gives him a voice.

He's made 800 some posts in a mere year and two months.

You've made about 1500 posts in six years, every one a valuable contribution to the forum.

Didn't Shakespeare have something to say about guys like JD?

"Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing"?

Let it go, Duane.

It's not worth your time.

flaco

I very seldom read the gunsmith forum because like Mike D writes my gunsmithing tools consist of my checkbook. However when I saw the welding bolts thread I read it because I know a little about welding.

+1 Flaco on what you said.

I would not have posted the pictures of JD's welding especially the bolt with the pin hole. they look a little rough. I recall another thread with old JD and it looks like he struggles accepting people that are successful.

Anyway for a moment I thought I stumbled in the Political Forum.

quote:

Originally posted by DPhillips:

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
The book was written 60 years ago when gas welding was the only act in town...
But according to you, Duane, your father was doing shipyard welding with SMAW (stick) long before that....

With TIG you can easily attain enough killiwiggles to go clear thru a 1/2" plate...at least with my Miller Dialarc you can.
What's a killiwiggle? And penetration does not equal or even indicate a good weld, it only indicates high amperage.

JHC: how many times do I have to respond to this bullshit...I never said 100 pen was NOT desireable..I said honestly that I "do not know"
I suggest you have one X-rayed and then you'll know for sure.

Jerry: this "quote" is simply anecdotal and not subject to proof..it's just a few words on page 106...doesn't mean a damn thing
Dunlap's book has been the smith's bible ever since it was written, even more so than Howe and Vickery. Methinks thou doth protest a little too much, it's kinda hard to refute Dunlap in a convincing manner...

Regards, Joe

Joe,
The 416 is mine that Duane has pictured. After a dozen or so brown bears in the puckerbush, I'll let you know if the bolt handle fell off or not. I'm guessing not and willing to bet my life on the same, if only obviously... This will also be my work gun as someone who lives in the toothy clawed kitchens of bears when they are awake and asleep and warrants dependability in all equipment, at all times. I've faith in the best of the best, whether someone in deep south does or not, matters to me not in the least...

I'm with you buddy, the 375H&H pictured above is mine. I'll be using it in Tanzania in October & I have the utmost faith that the bolt handle will NOT fall off in my hands, or that the rifle will have any other problems either. Duanes track record, reputation & long history of satisfied customers is something most people could only dream about.

My god, I thought the "Tall Poppy Syndrome" was bad here in Australia, but J.D.Steele & a few others seem to have turned it into an art form.

Duane, keep it up mate, love your work.

Duane Posted:

The book was written 60 years ago when gas welding was the only act in town...

With TIG you can easily attain enough killiwiggles to go clear thru a 1/2" plate...at least with my Miller Dialarc you can.

JHC: how many times do I have to respond to this bullshit...I never said 100 pen was NOT desireable..I said honestly that I "do not know"

Jerry: this "quote" is simply anecdotal and not subject to proof..it's just a few words on page 106...doesn't mean a damn thing



Duane first let me say I think you are producing some of the finest custom rifles I've ever seen. It is truly first class work.

I was responding to a post asking if anyone knew of a welded bolt failure and Dunlap was what I could find. However I also have to say all information on adequacy of bolt handle welding I've seen is "simply anecdotal". You say you've never had a failure. That speaks well but that is also only "anecdotal" information. I have not been able to find any reference to any study, properly done or not, on the strength or adequacy of welded bolt handles. It is also likely such a study will never be done and all we will have to go on is "anecdotal" information and what is published in the welding literature. As a pathologist I'm acutely aware of the proper use and often misuse of anecdotal information.

Jerry Liles

Duane,

Thanks for still sharing!

I never said it wasn't adequate for the job but I DID say it wasn't 'best'.

I never said my own work was perfect or even close to the same surface finish as Duane's or any other smith whose income depends upon product appearance. I've said I admire him for the quality of his work and his willingness to share his knowledge.

If any of you can show any evidence of acknowledged professional expertise in welding or heat-treating steel such as procedure qualification certs or an 'N'-stamp or a degree in Engineering or Metallurgy (or even an A.A.S. in Gunsmithing) or experience working in welding QC, why then I'll be happy to listen to you. If OTOH all you can show is your opinion, well.....

Maybe we need a definition of 'best' work so we can be sure we're on the same page. How about:
1. at LEAST as good as the other finest examples of the genre (in every respect, not just surface finish) and
2. the best that the specific individual craftsman is capable of doing

Further opinions, definitions, and/or personal attacks?
Regards, Joe

quote:

Nekst problem showed after the first 1 or 2 strokes from the forginghammer. From atempting fo forge more than 200 different previous welded handels, only 1 or 2 survived my forging attempt

I don't really have an opinion on this subject. But if you have to heat and pound on the handle to get the handle to fall off I would think welding with any method is adequate.

JD

I will play. What is a common material grade for the bolt? The bolt handle? How thick is the material in the weld area of the bolt? What are the dimensions of the weld area of the bolt handle?

What are the hardness requirements of the bolt?

quote:

Originally posted by J_Zola:

quote:

Nekst problem showed after the first 1 or 2 strokes from the forginghammer. From atempting fo forge more than 200 different previous welded handels, only 1 or 2 survived my forging attempt

I don't really have an opinion on this subject. But if you have to heat and pound on the handle to get the handle to fall off I would think welding with any method is adequate.

The forging attempt on the welded bolts just showed that they were way weaker than the original.
I have also seen numerus welded bolthandels fall of. Maybe they weren't welded "good enough", but i ame sure that the persons that did the welding, would all say, "i dont understand this, because i have never seen this happens before. Now i have been welding bolts for the last 30+ years, at least 5-10 a year"

The fact is that only a few manages to produce quantities big enough to get any realistical base for collecting expierince.

Try to look at it this way.
Remmington has gotten a reputation for the bolthandle to loosen, and the extractor to be "not reliable enough"
How manny % of the remmyes do you think that actualy failed 1 out of 10, 1 out of hundred, one out of thousand???
My guess is that it is in the area < 1 out of 100, probably 1 out of 1000.

How manny gunsmiths ever reach 100 welded bolts, not to mention 1000 welded bolts.
If you look at the in most ways ekstremly beautifull work of Duane. How manny rifles do you guess that he ever build, and how mutch do you think that those rifles was actualy used.
Taking this into concideration, how valuable is the expierence that they all survived.
Was the reason they survived. 1: there was only a werry limited quantity. 2: they were only used werry little. 3: they were undoubtably strong enough by a margin of several houndred percent.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
JD

I will play. What is a common material grade for the bolt? The bolt handle? How thick is the material in the weld area of the bolt? What are the dimensions of the weld area of the bolt handle?

What are the hardness requirements of the bolt?

The core material of manny mauser bolts, is rather lowcarbon "pisspotsteel", with a increased carboncontents in the surface. Allowing you to get a rather soft and tough core inside a hard shell.

My estimate of the needed surfacehardnes, to prevent galling, and stick specialy on the cammingcurve is somwhere around 500-700 wikers (45-60HrC)

Most welders know that it requires special precautions to weld on material with a carboncontents above 0.40% Basicaly because the risk of hardening cracks just besides the weld.

To improove the tecknical quality and strength of the shown welding , one could suggest to remove a layer of the surface of the bolt where he would attacht the new handel. This to eliminate the risk of hardeningcracks in the entire joint area.
Basicaly mill of 0.03" of the surface where he atatch the new handle. Then the weld would be able to reach the lowcarbon area, therefor reducing the risk for cracks.
If he then performs a close to full penn weld, and also finish it as nicely as he use to do. Then you would have a joint that matches the rest of his work.

I guess this would be alot more constructive than trying to shoot the messenger, as manny tryes to do with JD.
Always remember, that even the "Mighty lord" can still improove.

JD-

I have education and numerous professional credentials I could show you. But I won't. That would be dignifying your little elementary school boy play yard challenge. I wish you would just shut the fuck up or go play somewhere else.

And while you are at it, if you want to act like a big shit and try to impress people, then find someone to educate you in both gunmaking and engineering/QC/materials, etc. You are an embarrassment to me as both an engineer and a gunmaker. You know enough about specific things to know that you know more than the typical person. You do not know enough to realize how little you truly know.

I NEVER post on internet boards any more, but you are a total embarrassment to both of my chosen professions and I am sick of reading your stupid comments. And yes, I mean stupid and not ignorant. An ignorant person just does not know something, but is capable of learning it with proper education. You are incapable of learning because you would rather try to dazzle everyone with what you do know, not realizing the whole time that you are just further proving to people such as myself (you know, guys who have actual education and real world professional experience in both fields) that you cannot see the big picture. Gunmakers and engineers such as yourself give the good ones a bad name

Hi Marc
It is a pitty that you choose to do excactly what i wrote in the previous post.
Instead of adding constructive, you gets pretty personally, and tryes to shoot the messenger JD.

Look at it this way:
A werry talented and skilled craftsman, post an educative post, showing "How to doo"
This educative post contains info showing tecniques, that some with other expierince find a sort of questionable, or at least could be performed at a higher level, that better matches the rest of the shown work.
If nobody has the balls to question, then this only almost perfect performance could mislead all the pupils to "follow the leader"
Would this be the ideal situation????

Basicaly only insecure people, gets agressive and personal when questioned.

Why does a lot of professions act like a gang, when someone critizise them, is it because they want to stay leveled abowe the crowd.

22WRF,

You are correct. A bad study and bad data are often worse than no data. And "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics."

What would be a good set of criteria and what numbers would be required I do not know but I suggest you could start with the known strength of the materials and what is known of good welding practice to develop your test goals. Rather than sacrifice a good bolt body and handle use some appropriate steel rod and thick walled tubing instead. Testing could be non-destructive as in xray, magnetic, as well as testing the weld to failure and by sectioning a few.

Might be a good project for one of the gunsmithing schools. I'd even be willing to help pay for some supplies for a well designed study.

Jerry Liles

quote:

Originally posted by jørgen:

Look at it this way:
A werry talented and skilled craftsman, post an educative post, showing "How to doo"
This educative post contains info showing tecniques, that some with other expierince find a sort of questionable, or at least could be performed at a higher level, that better matches the rest of the shown work.
If nobody has the balls to question, then this only almost perfect performance could mislead all the pupils to "follow the leader"
Would this be the ideal situation????

Basicaly only insecure people, gets agressive and personal when questioned.

Why does a lot of professions act like a gang, when someone critizise them, is it because they want to stay leveled abowe the crowd.

I've been following this for some days, reluctant to make a contribution for fear of also becoming a target, but I think you've rather nailed it.

FWIW (perhaps not much!) I graduated in metallurgy in 1990, and spent a little time qualifying welders and weld procedures and in failure investigation before gradually moving on to other things, and I have to say that my first reaction on reading Duane's comments about the welding of bolt handles was to be a little surprised, if not disappointed. Quite clearly the man is well capable of turning out very fine work, so his comment about his welds did rather leap from the screen. On the other hand, it is a measure of honesty to make the admission not to know whether the welds are to full penetration.

I guess I should say that for some purposes 100% penetration is neither here nor there, and for some weld situations that is a deliberate design choice, but I would have thought that for a section like that of a bolt root, particularly where it is intended to function as a safety lug, that full penetration should be the aim. Having said that it may well be that Duane is in fact achieving that aim anyway, and it would be a fairly straightforward thing to check. I'd have reservations I'd have to say if in fact there is a void, as its effect would potentially be that of a stress concentration, weakening the structure (and at a bad place for it too) and leaving it vulnerable to failure especially under impact loads, but I guess that may not be much of an issue in practical terms unless it is large or perhaps unless the lugs failed or the bolt had to be forced open with a cheater bar or mallet. In ordinary service the loads are fairly low, and I suppose it would take a really bad job of welding (and/or really vigorous operation) for the bolt handle to come of in your hand. It would be interesting (and not difficult) to test the effect of varying degrees of penetration and root fusion, and Jorgen's experience of a large number of cases certainly is interesting.

I do agree with Jorgen though, that there has been rather of lot of playing the man rather than the ball

I've stayed out of this because I have no qualifications that allow me to post an opinion. I think this thread just needs to be closed as it has gotten out of hand. You just need to agree to disagree and get on to the next pissing contest. If one of you guys with one of Duane's rifles gets eat up by a dangerous game animal, I'm sure we will hear about it. Until then lets get on to the next bitching contest.
Butch

quote:

Until then lets get on to the next bitching contest.
Butch

+1

I am ready ...

yeh,.... lets re-open the pissn contest/debate about M98 reHeatreatment.
anecdotal vs empirical data of course.....